EPT2012 French Presidential Election - Page 22
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Grackula
133 Posts
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On April 23 2012 04:56 Microchaton wrote: You're thinking elections in terms of absolute. That people belong to "the left wing" or "the right wing" or "the extreme right" and vote there. That's partly the case in the US, but not really in France. A lot of people vote for candidates over general political views. A lot of people who voted for various candidates would have voted for DSK if he ran instead of Hollande, same thing for Juppé and Sarkozy, for instance. The exact same thing happened in the last election with Segolene Royal and Sarkozy. A lot of people who usually vote to the left just couldn't bear the idea of having Royal in power. I certainly did not. Holland is certainly slightly less terrible as a potential president, but only slightly. Again, I despise Sarkozy and am deeply disappointed in most everything he did during his mandate. I just cannot see Holland doing anything else than completely ruining everything even more. Think carefully about who you'd rather not have at the head of your country, considering that their programs obviously don't reflect what they will (/be able to) do once in power. And what exactly is terrible about Hollande? I mean, using terms such as "catastrophic", you must have facts to back that up, right? | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
I don't want a new law each time a random thing happen in the country, when there are already laws about that. I don't want things and their opposite being said every year, I don't want someone who insults people, especially farmers, who specially selects people when he visits somewhere, who blindly refuses to see the people who disagree with him, and who feels like he owns everything, and bends everything his way instead of serving his country. There has never been more laws refused after they were voted cause they were forced and unconstitutional. Granted, I don't really like Hollande either, since I'm more right wing myself. But Sarkozy had his chance, and the result is he brought a whole lot of people to hate him with his nonsense, and managed to bring Le Pen to 20% all by himself. I'd gladly vote blank, but it's not even taken into account... He had his chance and failed, the other side should be able to have their, too. If they fuck up, they WILL get the deserved backlash, don't worry about it. Far right having 20% after Sarkozy was minister of the interior then president for 10 years total, if his interior policy which he had AMPLE TIME to put into place had been correct, and if he didn't try to bring it up again to gather FN votes, that would not have happened. And I'm not even talking about economy. I don't care about either program, both would not be able to apply everything anyway, I'll judge what they have done. And I can already judge what he has done these last 5 years. And if effectively you despise him, too, why the fuck will you be voting for him. Do you believe he magically changed in the last 3 months after having a lot of power for the last 10 years ? Left or right doesn't matter, I'll grant you that. But there are more people that will NEVER EVER vote for him again than Hollande. | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
The main reason is because Hollande passed the Treaty of Lisbon while people said no in the referendum. I can't vote for someone who doesn't respect democracy. The second reason is in 5 years I don't want people to complain about the left wing being right wing and discrediting the whole left wing because of him. Hollande's project is right wing. He won't remove Sarkozy's retirement reform meaning he could have made it. He's let pass the 1st part of the Merkel-Sarkozy treaty (MES) and will pass the whole treaty in july. He doesn't want to increase the minimum wages. He wants to remove a ton of fonctionnaires. He wants to make more nuclear plants. He wants to build a polluting airport in Nantes. This and a few other anti-democratic things he's done in the past years like in 2007 threatening socialists mayors of an exclusion of the party if they gave signatures to other candidates, or in 1997 when Hollande cheated to be elected as the head of the socialist party. If Hollande is elected he'll vote for the same things as Sarkozy about Europe and they'll even support the same candidate as the president of Europe in a few months. I don't want people to complain the left wing and right wing are the same thing because of Hollande. If he's elected in 5 years it will be impossible to have a strong left wing again. PS: 5 years ago I voted Bové then Segolene Royal but it was really tough to vote for her. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:14 chuky500 wrote: The main reason is because Hollande passed the Treaty of Lisbon while people said no in the referendum. I can't vote for someone who doesn't respect democracy. . Hmm what ? It's Sarkozy who passed the treaty of Lisbon lol. He changed the constitution in 2008 to allow the treaty to pass via the parliament. | ||
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Microchaton
France342 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:08 Nouar wrote: And if effectively you despise him, too, why the fuck will you be voting for him. Do you believe he magically changed in the last 3 months after having a lot of power for the last 10 years ? Because I don't have a choice, really. I didn't last elections either. I lived most of my life in Poitou-Charentes, where Segolene Royal reigned and I knew first hand how terrible she was. I already didn't trust nor like Sarkozy, but you have to choose what will end up hurt your country less. Back then it was him over Segolène, without a doubt. Right now, I still believe the country would be in a less terrible shape after another Sarkozy mandate than it would be after a Hollande mandate. As to why Hollande is a useless bag of crap, I can't be arsed to dissect everything "by the menu", but looking at his program it's pretty clear that the vast majority of his points are just wishful thinking and general statement with no real solid proposition behind it. Others are just blatant demagogy that don't even mean anything. Pretty much the only thing I like is his Tobin tax on every financial transaction, but like most of the "actual propositions" it seems more of a "principle tax" than something that will actually enable other propositions to work. Not even going to start about him as a man, he's completely devoid of any charisma and doesn't have the balls to be a leader or defend any position. He wouldn't be able to stand his ground against actual country leaders, and while he wouldn't necessarily grovel and lick Obama's boots like Sarkozy did, he most likely wouldn't do any significant act or take his own position in the world either. He's a caramel mou, excuse my french. Quick Edit after seeing the above posts : Holland and the PS did indeed vote for the Treaty of Lisbon despite the french referendum's results. That's just one thing to add on his terrible dossier really. | ||
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Nyarly
France1030 Posts
Marine Le Pen is third.. I guess i'll start pasting stuff on the streets before the racist get reelected.. | ||
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fofa2000
Canada548 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:26 fofa2000 wrote: Total fail, you guys should have voted for Bayrou. Who? | ||
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chuky500
France473 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:22 Nouar wrote: Hmm what ? It's Sarkozy who passed the treaty of Lisbon lol. He changed the constitution in 2008 to allow the treaty to pass via the parliament. Did the parliament members respect the referendum ? No. Hollande didn't respect the French vote. Hollande didn't vote about the MES a few month ago, I don't see why I'm compelled to vote for him. | ||
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Rodiel3
France1158 Posts
Those moment are the best level of enjoyment of each campaign because they cant cheat too much | ||
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dafunk
France521 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:22 Nouar wrote: Hmm what ? It's Sarkozy who passed the treaty of Lisbon lol. He changed the constitution in 2008 to allow the treaty to pass via the parliament. The socialist party approved it and voted for it. http://hebdo.parti-socialiste.fr/2007/11/06/990/ I'm a bit confused, why is it that people voting for left-wing candidates other than Hollande are likely to vote for Sarkozy in the second round? Wouldn't it make more sense to just not vote in the second round rather than getting 5 more years of a president you don't like? Of course people who voted for trotskyst (sp?) candidates are going to vote for the socialist candidate in two weeks. The confusion comes from some guy claiming the opposite a few posts above, but rest assured that you are saner than he is. Check this : http://www.ipsos.fr/presidentielle-2012/PDF/ReportsVoix.pdf Its from 2 days ago but the results I saw on TV tonight were quite similar. Just change MLP -> Sarkozy to 60 MLP -> Hollande to 18 Mélenchon -> Hollande to 84 Mélenchon -> Sarkozy - dont remember Bayrou was exactly the same. | ||
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RJGooner
United States2076 Posts
EDIT: Or is this par for the course? | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:34 chuky500 wrote: Did the parliament members respect the referendum ? No. Hollande didn't respect the French vote. Hollande didn't vote about the MES a few month ago, I don't see why I'm compelled to vote for him. Plus Hollande's programm is not realisable... | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:41 RJGooner wrote: 20% for Le Pen and 12% for Melenchon? Are people so apathetic about Sarkozy and Hollande that these extremists can get these types of percentages? EDIT: Or is this par for the course? Well they're both idiots. ;/ Maybe not idiots but none of them are particularly liked. You have to see these extremist votes as a way of saying that the candidates suck, without voting nothing (which no one cares about). | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:41 Saumure wrote: Plus Hollande's programm is not realisable... It's not like any program is doable. The most nonsensical part is when people criticize a candidate like Hollande because he's very positive about the available budget, and vote for Le Pen who wants to divide immigration by 10. Or Mélenchon who wants a 1700 SMIC, just like that, out of nowhere. Every single candidate has promises they will not accomplish. You have to look beyond this and actually take a look at their plan. | ||
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Kyrillion
Russian Federation748 Posts
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Koorb
France266 Posts
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VyingsP
France174 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:14 chuky500 wrote: I voted Melenchon and I wasn't expecting such results. I think in 2 weeks I'll scribble on Hollande's name and vote "null". I don't really understand why someone voting Eva Joly or Melanchon would vote for Sarkozy but I know why I probably won't vote for Hollande. The main reason is because Hollande passed the Treaty of Lisbon while people said no in the referendum. I can't vote for someone who doesn't respect democracy. The second reason is in 5 years I don't want people to complain about the left wing being right wing and discrediting the whole left wing because of him. Hollande's project is right wing. He won't remove Sarkozy's retirement reform meaning he could have made it. He's let pass the 1st part of the Merkel-Sarkozy treaty (MES) and will pass the whole treaty in july. He doesn't want to increase the minimum wages. He wants to remove a ton of fonctionnaires. He wants to make more nuclear plants. He wants to build a polluting airport in Nantes. This and a few other anti-democratic things he's done in the past years like in 2007 threatening socialists mayors of an exclusion of the party if they gave signatures to other candidates, or in 1997 when Hollande cheated to be elected as the head of the socialist party. If Hollande is elected he'll vote for the same things as Sarkozy about Europe and they'll even support the same candidate as the president of Europe in a few months. I don't want people to complain the left wing and right wing are the same thing because of Hollande. If he's elected in 5 years it will be impossible to have a strong left wing again. PS: 5 years ago I voted Bové then Segolene Royal but it was really tough to vote for her. I feel your pain. I really do. 5 years ago, I voted for Voynet before voting for Royal without any enthusiasm. This time, I voted Melenchon (even though i thought Joly had the best program ! don't ask me why, it's too complicated  ), and I hesitated a lot but I do know now that I will vote Hollande in the second round.Why so ? Do I think he has the best program ? No. But let's compare : between Sarkozy's measure to pay pensions 7 days sooner and Hollande's proposition to split banks between commercial banks and investment banks, my choice is obvious. I mean : I read the 32 propositions of Sarkozy. A third is purely demagogic (pensions, cour d'assises...), another third is the measures that were announced in 2007 but never inforced (proportional election for parliament, funds for suburbs...) and the last third are some measures that might be useful, but will not change anything to the current economic crisis. On the other hand, Hollande has some good measures, such as the ineligibility for 10 years of the politicians convinced with corruption, or the increase of the inheritance tax (which is only fair, if you consider that being rich should be deserved and not inherited). Finally I would rather have a President who does not try to create a new stinky debate every time some atrocious news appears in the papers. I would love to see Nadine Morano, Xavier Bertrand, Luc Besson, Claude Guéant and all the others out of the ministries. And I would love to see M. Nicolas Sarkozy finally answer all the questions that have been asked by mediapart for 5 years. Obviously François Hollande will not respect every engagement he took during this campaign, but some things will change (for the better). And I know for a fact that Sarkozy will continue to sink my country with his old-fashionned liberal-economic theories if he is given the option. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:40 dafunk wrote: The socialist party approved it and voted for it. http://hebdo.parti-socialiste.fr/2007/11/06/990/ Hmm yes I was wrong, but they still voted against the constitution change, and required a referendum (why, since there had been one already...), before finally voting it (fuckers) after the constitution change passed anyway. This below is the constitution change vote. http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2008/02/04/431513-traite-de-lisbonne-decouvrez-comment-ont-vote-votre-depute-et-votre-senateur.html All these politicians are pissing me off anyway, sad we have to bear with them. The problem is if there was one guy, selfless, who would do things for his country, he'd be all alone, nobody would vote for him anyway, and it would be suicide. Sigh... I'd really like to have the choice to blank vote, it being counted (not useful, but at least counted in the stats) -_- | ||
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