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Back to the good part! And by good part i mean the actual thread purpose.
So there was an obvious misinterpretation of the prize money of this tournament, but don't forget that the prize pool for The International was 1million. Dota 2 has the full backing of Valve, which is HUGE in comparison to Riot. Dota 2 is going to go live and seriously put other MOBA's to the test. There are a lot of 'beginner' interfaces that are shown in the beta just not available as of yet. Valve is seriously taking the time and the effort to make sure that Dota 2 is also accessable to the 'general public' and not just previous Dota players. And don't forget that the skill-cap that is currently in the Dota 2 beta is higher then the skill cap of Dota or LoL currently is, and that is because Valve has really been only inviting players who have previous MOBA experience, whether it be dota, lol or hon.
I find that there are SIGNIFICANT differences in the gameplay of LoL and Dota 2. I am a long-time dota player (around 6 years), i am participating in the dota2 beta and I have played LoL a fair amount. I'm not saying that LoL is not a fun game, because it is, but the snowball factor in LoL is significantly easier then it is in dota or dota2. I feel that overall as a game LoL is extremely fun to play and easy to learn, whereas Dota 2 has a higher skill cap to be decent at the game. LoL focuses almost completely on early and mid game ganking and transitions into 'my carry has more farm then you, we win'. There are instances that this is not the case, but for the most part that is what LoL comes down to each game. In Dota 2 you can easily comeback from a horrible start because you picked a 'late-game' lineup in comparison to the opposing team picking a 'mid-game' lineup.
Now I have not played LoL at a high level, so I do not want to spectate on the intracacies of high-level play, but in Dota 2 you have extremely complicated play at the pro-level. I also found that in lower-level play Dota 2 tends to spiral into 1-2 heroes carrying the game, much like they are supposed to, whereas in pro-level play you can often see games that end before that 'carry' can truly reach his potential. In the games of LoL that I have seen, you almost never see non-carry games. That makes the game extremely 1-sided. Whoever farms their carry the best wins. Is that a good strategy for an e-sport? IMO, no, but does that mean that it isn't a viable e-sport? No it does not.
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On March 15 2012 04:31 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover... Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves. For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head). Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well.
Ahh but I don't think that argument holds. What I think you're saying is similar to saying "if brood lords are overpowered, just 4gate the zerg so that the zerg doesn't get to the late game". But that doesn't take away from Brood lords being overpowered (if they were, dont burn me).
Also, 21 / 94 champions being unused is actually pretty significant to me. There are ~40 combat units in starcraft and if 8-9 units were unused that would be pretty extreme. There is a reason why so many people say "we never see Carriers / Battlecruisers / Ultralisks (to a lesser extent) / Ravens in games! buff them!" and perhaps that might be similar to LoL.
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If you ask me WoW arena was more entertaining than LoL...And I've played LoL for awhile and it is NOT fun to watch at all..
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On March 15 2012 04:31 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover... Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves. For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head). Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well.
Out of curiosity: you pick your champion only once, before the game starts, right? So, every single game is a build order win?
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LoL is more popular that starcraft in korea is mainly because starcraft 2 isn't and the fact that LoL is free just adds to that.
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brutal.
User was warned for this post
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Gg. LoL is terrible. I lol when people tell me that LoL is a skill based game. Casuals rejoice now absolutely anyone can be a progamer.
User was warned for this post
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On March 15 2012 04:43 CanadianSC wrote:
Gg. LoL is terrible. I lol when people tell me that LoL is a skill based game. Casuals rejoice now absolutely anyone can be a progamer.
I know right? LoL is like that one game I just screw around with, get to the high ranks, and then stop playing, go back to play, and still get to the high ranks because my experience in BW just let me do that.
Oh wait, wrong game sorry.
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On March 15 2012 04:39 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:31 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover... Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves. For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head). Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well. Out of curiosity: you pick your champion only once, before the game starts, right? So, every single game is a build order win?
The interactions between solo lanes can be a "build order win". Some 1v1 matchups are nearly impossible, even with a level advantage or jungler help. As 5 though, it's almost impossible to get a build order win unless the other team did something like 5 melee vs balanced team. Also generally the solo lanes are picked later in pick phase so that you generally know what champions that fit the other team's comp are still available, so you can pick something that does decent against everything viable left.
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On March 15 2012 04:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:43 CanadianSC wrote:
Gg. LoL is terrible. I lol when people tell me that LoL is a skill based game. Casuals rejoice now absolutely anyone can be a progamer. I know right? LoL is like that one game I just screw around with, get to the high ranks, and then stop playing, go back to play, and still get to the high ranks because my experience in BW just let me do that. Oh wait, wrong game sorry.
You know, some of these detractors should learn the game for a few weeks, then go play like, TL B or something. One of the teams floating around the subforum. The ones made by hella casuals and their casual games.
Just a thought.
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On March 15 2012 04:45 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:39 ACrow wrote:On March 15 2012 04:31 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover... Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves. For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head). Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well. Out of curiosity: you pick your champion only once, before the game starts, right? So, every single game is a build order win? The interactions between solo lanes can be a "build order win". Some 1v1 matchups are nearly impossible, even with a level advantage or jungler help. As 5 though, it's almost impossible to get a build order win unless the other team did something like 5 melee vs balanced team. Also generally the solo lanes are picked later in pick phase so that you generally know what champions that fit the other team's comp are still available, so you can pick something that does decent against everything viable left.
Makes more sense now, thanks for the explanation!
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On March 15 2012 04:39 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:31 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover... Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves. For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head). Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well. Out of curiosity: you pick your champion only once, before the game starts, right? So, every single game is a build order win?
There's a ban/pick phase for every match. It's not at all uncommon that team A plays say a heavy AoE comp in game 1 and then goes a totally different comp, say "protect the kog" in the 2nd game.
Item builds depend completely on what you are laning against, what were their runes / masteries, what is the enemy team comp, what is your team comp, how is the game progressing, what did the enemy build etc. While champs usually have a core of boots + 1 or 2 items, the rest depends totally on the game.
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On March 15 2012 04:39 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:31 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover... Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves. For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head). Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well. Ahh but I don't think that argument holds. What I think you're saying is similar to saying "if brood lords are overpowered, just 4gate the zerg so that the zerg doesn't get to the late game". But that doesn't take away from Brood lords being overpowered (if they were, dont burn me). Also, 21 / 94 champions being unused is actually pretty significant to me. There are ~40 combat units in starcraft and if 8-9 units were unused that would be pretty extreme. There is a reason why so many people say "we never see Carriers / Battlecruisers / Ultralisks (to a lesser extent) / Ravens in games! buff them!" and perhaps that might be similar to LoL.
broodlords don't need to farm creeps in order to be overpowered. at least learn basic game mechanics before you compare two unrelated games that shouldn't be compared at all
o_O
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On March 15 2012 04:26 JiYan wrote:
Very interesting! its actually really common for me to hear from my friends "i dont know why i lost!" and its very common here on the starcraft forums. The level of complexity in Starcraft is fairly high, and maybe that is driving some people towards slightly simpler genres? In a discussion of popularity this would be pretty important to address, but I think people worry that the popularization of a less complex game as an esport will reward casualness. Do you think the complexity "ceiling" of LoL is as high as Starcraft's even though it might be agreed upon that at least in 99% of the scene, it's complexity is lower?
I don't know what you mean by complexity... I think LoL in some ways is more complex than SC2. For example, in SC2 you can have 0 teamwork skills and be successful.
SC2 is more mechanically demanding. Which one is more complex depends on what aspect of the game you're looking at.
Unlike LoL, which is very casual friendly, Starcraft is not for the simple minded; the differences in terms of popularity are understandable. What I don't understand is how can people watch a game that features only 1 (one) map, not to mention that during games, most of the times nothing happens. In other games, especially other competitive games, the environments are varied, and stuff happens right off the bat.
They make up for the single map by having a huge champion select. Most of the time nothing happens in SC2 either. It's all a matter of perspective. The more you understand LoL the more you understand the small nuances, and the more you can appreciate them. Stuff is happening right off the bat but you just don't notice it. Heck, there's even "cheese" like at IEM Grand Finals where champion kills were happening in the first couple of minutes.
That said, at the pro level I find SC2 more enjoyable to watch than LoL.
On March 15 2012 04:31 crystyxn wrote:
does it come as a surprise that stupid people are the majority?
I don't understand how LoL is a spectator esport. Its just flashy with cool character designs and you use 5 keys to cast spells. You might as well stand next to me and watch me play Devil May Cry 4.
I could say the same thing for SC2. There are plenty of "good" sc2 players that aren't smart... they're just mechanically sound. There's actually pros that fit this category.
Your understanding of LoL is poor. It's a spectator sport because it's the most popular game and people follow the top level of their hobbies.
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Its pointless to explain to non LoL what is LoL. Since its F2P why don't people just go and try it out. Please don't compare SC to LoL.
But well, if you are Master in SC2 you will be good at any games given you invest enough time. You are just a good gamers thats all.
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On March 15 2012 04:39 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:31 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover... Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves. For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head). Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well. Ahh but I don't think that argument holds. What I think you're saying is similar to saying "if brood lords are overpowered, just 4gate the zerg so that the zerg doesn't get to the late game". But that doesn't take away from Brood lords being overpowered (if they were, dont burn me). Also, 21 / 94 champions being unused is actually pretty significant to me. There are ~40 combat units in starcraft and if 8-9 units were unused that would be pretty extreme. There is a reason why so many people say "we never see Carriers / Battlecruisers / Ultralisks (to a lesser extent) / Ravens in games! buff them!" and perhaps that might be similar to LoL.
And those people that think underused units should be buffed are dumb for various reasons. Just like how BW went through a decade of various shifts in trends and strategical discoveries, which were often incredibly significant, LoL goes through the same cycles. There are various units that are simply not used in certain matchups in BW but this doesn't detract from the fact that the game is incredibly balanced and here we're seriously talking about a decade old game. With LoL we're talking about a very young game with so much unexplored that the fact that 21/94 champs not being used really has no significance to me, considering how certain champions have been considered to be garbage one month, and suddenly the next month they're the new trendy champion that people moan about being overpowered or some nonsense.
It took a long time for someone to win with carriers in the new BW proleague season, and in general carriers are very underused nowadays. But that doesn't mean that there's an innate problem with the unit design. There are very good reasons why battlecruisers aren't used in TvP. Queens were considered to be a fairly garbage unit for pretty much a decade before Zerg players really started to grasp when and how to use them with great effect.
idk, there's way too many factors, and way too many people are far too naive or ignorant about this, not to mention just flat out retarded.
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On March 15 2012 03:28 Bjoernzor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 02:51 TheToast wrote:On March 15 2012 02:45 Bjoernzor wrote:
As a person who plays LoL almost daily with friends, often 5+ hours, Im so fucking angry at the world for accepting this game as an E-sport. It's just not designed for it (Anti-fun concept derp) it is in ground and basis designed as the casual version of DotA/HoN. Riot is playing it off awesomely though and i wish blizzard would follow their concept.
Just because it has a lot of players doesn't make it suitable for an E-sport. To me it makes about as much sense as playing farmville competitively. Serious question: why do you care? Is there any proof that LoL is pulling viewers or prize money from SC2? Is there anything to suggest LoL will kill BW, seriously if WC3/Dota/SC2/etc couldn't kill BW in Korea does LoL really stand a chance? Why is this such a huge issue to you that people may want to watch LoL played competitively? I ask this as someone who has never watched nor played LoL. If anything LoL is pulling new people into e-sports; people who may expand to watching SC2/BW. So why is this bad exactly??? You can't play it competitively in the same aspect as other competitive games (I'm open for debate on this, just PM me). That is the reason i do not want to see it played as an E-sport.
Huh?
That's like saying hockey isn't as competitive as baseball, so hockey shouldn't be played as a sport. It's a rediculous argument to make. Your argument (as well as arguments of many others here) boils down to you don't like the game, so therefore it shouldn't be an esport. You admit that it could lead to more people watching SC, and would help esports as a whole. So why shouldn't it be played in tournaments? If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Other than that, I don't see any harm in people watching LoL.
And if people start watching sc2/BW because of LoL that is amazing but to me it simply doesn't justify making a casual game into an E-sport.
You need justification for this now? Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game?
I don't watch or play LoL, nor am I likely to start. But if LoL starts popping up in professional leagues I don't give a shit one way or the other. Great for the LoL players I guess, but it doesn't affect me any.
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On March 15 2012 04:51 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:28 Bjoernzor wrote:On March 15 2012 02:51 TheToast wrote:On March 15 2012 02:45 Bjoernzor wrote:
As a person who plays LoL almost daily with friends, often 5+ hours, Im so fucking angry at the world for accepting this game as an E-sport. It's just not designed for it (Anti-fun concept derp) it is in ground and basis designed as the casual version of DotA/HoN. Riot is playing it off awesomely though and i wish blizzard would follow their concept.
Just because it has a lot of players doesn't make it suitable for an E-sport. To me it makes about as much sense as playing farmville competitively. Serious question: why do you care? Is there any proof that LoL is pulling viewers or prize money from SC2? Is there anything to suggest LoL will kill BW, seriously if WC3/Dota/SC2/etc couldn't kill BW in Korea does LoL really stand a chance? Why is this such a huge issue to you that people may want to watch LoL played competitively? I ask this as someone who has never watched nor played LoL. If anything LoL is pulling new people into e-sports; people who may expand to watching SC2/BW. So why is this bad exactly??? You can't play it competitively in the same aspect as other competitive games (I'm open for debate on this, just PM me). That is the reason i do not want to see it played as an E-sport. Huh? That's like saying hockey isn't as competitive as baseball, so hockey shouldn't be played as a sport. It's a rediculous argument to make. Your argument (as well as arguments of many others here) boils down to you don't like the game, so therefore it shouldn't be an esport. You admit that it could lead to more people watching SC, and would help esports as a whole. So why shouldn't it be played in tournaments? If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Other than that, I don't see any harm in people watching LoL. Show nested quote +And if people start watching sc2/BW because of LoL that is amazing but to me it simply doesn't justify making a casual game into an E-sport. You need justification for this now? Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game? I don't watch or play LoL, nor am I likely to start. But if LoL starts popping up in professional leagues I don't give a shit one way or the other. Great for the LoL players I guess, but it doesn't affect me any.
But logic and reason generally escaped the people who posted in this thread, how dare you bring such reasonable ideas up.
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On March 15 2012 04:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:43 CanadianSC wrote:
Gg. LoL is terrible. I lol when people tell me that LoL is a skill based game. Casuals rejoice now absolutely anyone can be a progamer. I know right? LoL is like that one game I just screw around with, get to the high ranks, and then stop playing, go back to play, and still get to the high ranks because my experience in BW just let me do that. Oh wait, wrong game sorry.
On which server you are a GM?
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On March 15 2012 04:54 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 04:43 CanadianSC wrote:
Gg. LoL is terrible. I lol when people tell me that LoL is a skill based game. Casuals rejoice now absolutely anyone can be a progamer. I know right? LoL is like that one game I just screw around with, get to the high ranks, and then stop playing, go back to play, and still get to the high ranks because my experience in BW just let me do that. Oh wait, wrong game sorry. On which server you are a GM?
I was being sarcastic. Chill. >.>
Edit: However, if we're to go off the fact that LoL is such a casual game and thus anyone can go pro because every LoL hater here seems to be in that kind of mindset, then my C rank in BW is ezpz GM np.
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EPT
