|
Havent read much about this but cool, hate the game personally but glad to see people getting paid to play a video game  hope the big pockets never randomly become empty...
|
why all the hate in the thread? Im a die hard Starcraft fan and player and i dont love starcraft because if how popular it is or how much money is in it. I love starcraft becaus i love starcraft. I dont care what anyone else thinks of it. People who love other games shoupd feel the same way. I think its awesome esports is growing in the states and doing well in korea. Who cares if LoL is #1, i still get to enjoy the GSL :D
|
On March 15 2012 03:55 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:44 Glaceau wrote:
oh red_b is a LoL reject that got mad he couldnt break 1600, not much to see here. Im sure that's why I went to a harder game with better players. Gee goly, I sure got told. It's not elitism to point out that your game is for casuals BY DESIGN. get over it, and get over yourself. DotA grew and became big by itself. Blizzard didn't do shit to help it. LoL won't have that staying power because while the game is good as a casual exercise, it's implicitly not suited to competitive play. And which pro LoL players have made a successful transfer over to DotA, exactly? Because some top HoN players have done so with moderate success. Why not the LoL players? Oh, because they are garbage at their genre just like the Halo players are garbage at FPS no matter how much they protest that they are way better than Quake / CS players.
What a game needs to be considered competitive is:
1) Vast potential for player self-improvement
2) A solid playerbase with interest in competing
3) Good game-balance
LoL doesn't lack any of those. The fact that it can be enjoyed as a casual game doesn't exclude it from being a good competitive game, and I don't think you understand this.
|
So what, Starcraft 2 is still #1 1v1 eSport.
|
On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s.
Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game.
|
On March 15 2012 03:48 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:44 Zerksys wrote:On March 15 2012 03:22 Cel.erity wrote:On March 15 2012 01:18 Josh111 wrote:On March 14 2012 20:21 darkscream wrote:
The problem with free games like LoL is that they can lose popularity just as fast as they gained it. And while it's great that Riot puts so much money back into the tournament scene, they do that because they need to buy loyalty from their players - otherwise they will just switch to the next good free game, or even the next MOBA game. They know they need to build a strong foundation because DOTA2 and Blizz DOTA will hit them like an earthquake.
edit: not to mention, kotaku is gawker so their opinion on ESPORTS is about as valuable dirt. LoL is very different then other free games before lol. LoL is not a game that can lose popularity fast, mostly because its so dam addicting and everchanging. I got the game in closed beta, have played over 2 thousand games over almost 3 years now and still play leagues on a somewhat regularly basis. On March 14 2012 21:38 Mikey wrote:On March 14 2012 21:17 Shikyo wrote:On March 14 2012 21:13 Mikey wrote:
LOL, what. How does a casual game that has no competitive aspect become to the most competitive game in the most competitive country? If this is warn worthy so be it, but I just don't see how the lackluster title called LoL is at the top of eSports. I guess DotA2 will easily become the biggest eSport at this rate. Like exactly this kind of comments make no sense. How does it have no competitive aspect? Of course it does, it even has multiple different ranked ladders, where you can actually see your position in comparison to the entire game population(not just a single league). Just because a game is fun to play doesn't mean that it isn't competitive. And again I'd like to point out that SC2 actually casualizes itself far more than LoL. Ranked ladders? I have friends who played DotA/HoN who played LoL for 2 weeks and hit top 10 on the LoL 'competitive rankings' just to prove how big of a joke it is. The game is completely dumbed down for casual play and almost every competitive aspect of DotA was removed for the making of LoL. When are YOU and the rest of the LoL fan base going to realize Riot games is simply sucking up all the profits they can. Mikey that is a complete lie. To even be able to get on the ranked ladder you have to be level 30 which takes far more then 2 weeks and then when you have reached level 30 your looking at atleast a 100 games (if you win more then twice as much as you lose) to get to a high place in the ladder.. lets say your friend never loses, or loses very rarely cause *lol is so easy* you are looking at 200 games (to get to 30 then to get to top 10), and lets say each game is 35 min (now im bad at math) but thats what 120 hours of gaming? Your friend can play for 120 hours in 2 weeks? I really don't think it takes that long to get to 30, I have seen people get smurfs there in under a week. It's like what, 100 games? That's 60 hours, less than most hardcore DotA players play per week. Some weeks I'll play a game for over 100 hours. It's not really far-fetched. Anyway, it should be obvious to everybody that LoL is a less deep game than DotA. I am a DotA player but I do enjoy LoL, but every time I play it I find myself trying to do things that are not possible like deny and juke, and I need to remind myself to play far less actively since active play is not rewarded in LoL. Meanwhile, when I play LoL for awhile and switch back to DotA, I find myself forgetting how to do these simple things, and my last hitting suffers. Riot is a great company and I wish them the best, I see this as a good sign for DotA since eventually DotA2 will overtake LoL in competitive popularity, and we'll be the ones getting all that $$$.  (Edit: misphrased, of course DotA is already far more popular competitively. I meant from a spectator standpoint.) Yeah it's possible to get to level 30 in a week, but only if you're really into the game and want to spend real money to get experience boosts. I just have a hard time imagining that mikey's friends who switched over to LoL from HoN would want to spend any money on a game they feel is trash. Also to get to the top of the NA ladder you'd have to play at least like somewhere from 50-100 games after obtaining level 30. It takes 40000 total exp to reach level 30. This means that if you obtain the average experience in a game of 130 give or take that it would still take you around 300 games to reach level 30. Providing he never lost that number may be closer to 200-250. So assuming best case situation that mikey's friend won all 200 of his first games (unlikely due to matchmaking), he has to play an additional 100 games to get to the top of the ladder. 300 games at around 30 minutes is 150 hours. If they get enough sleep like they should 2 weeks has 220 waking hours. This means that his friend had to do spend literally over 10 hours every single day of the week playing LoL to reach the top of the NA ladder. I find it hard to believe that his friends who think LoL is trash would play 10 hours of a game every day for 2 weeks just to prove a point. Fair enough, I know it can't be 300 games though, I have people on my friends list with ~200 games who are level 30 and I'm sure they didn't buy XP boosts. Also keep in mind "2 weeks" may be an exaggeration, and he may also be referring to before ranked was implemented and they just kept track of the top players on their website.
There's 2 possibilities. One, it could be 200 wins you're reading. LoL has the uncanny habit of displaying overall wins in your profile instead of win loss ratio (which is good at a casual level seeing as in ranked WLR is displayed). The second is that your friends did not play all their 200 games in 2 weeks  . With the first win of the day bonus they can earn up to 200 exp in a game, but that wouldn't affect mikey's friend playing all their games in 2 weeks.
On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game.
It's not really comparable to 90 factions because a race in sc2 is an entire complex system with an economy, units with strengths and weaknesses, etc.... Whereas characters in LoL are very similar to individual units. A better example would be if there was a game where sc2 players would have to choose between a pool of all sc2 units and only use 5 units in the game (harvesters excluded). Say that I wanted to run a team of zerglings, hellions, marauders, voidrays, and roaches. Well that composition is very vulnerable to say mutalisks which have the ability to hit both air and ground. I'd probably ban the other player from using mutalisks if I had the ability to ban. I SMELL A CUSTOM GAME!!!!!
|
On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game.
And yet it is surprisingly balanced. Nearly every champion sees play. Well, maybe not Evelynn, but after stealth remake (lolrite!)..
|
On March 15 2012 03:54 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:48 Glaceau wrote:On March 15 2012 03:47 lundell100 wrote:
I feel like these threads escalate into HONvsLoLvsDotA-arguments instantly; I still can't fathom why people can't enjoy one game without hating the other. no one from LoL hates HON or DOTA. just the butthurt elitists that are mad their game isnt as popular for whatever reason so they have to bash its skill level. children will be children. Might I cite what you wrote just a few posts above: Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:37 Glaceau wrote:
sorry that your shitty sc2 game sucks, brood war was 100x better and that garbage game takes no skill and has no viewership qualities. sorry to break it to you.
and if you're not defending sc2 then what the fuck are you defending rofl? this game is about sc2 vs LoL not bw vs lol. dumbass cant even read. Now what does that make you? Enjoy your time off of TL once a mod gets to it
Where in that quote is he trashing HoN or Dota. I must have missed it.
Also, whining about LoL imabalance is probably the dumbest shit in the world. Lol had NEVER had a problem with balance at the top level. Tournament games are always played 1 patch back to allow teams to not have to play vs a brand new hero/balance changes. There's also 6 bans and heroes that you might think are strong are perfectly fine in competetive play. Just because you got curb stomped by mordekaiser doesnt mean the game is imbalanced LoL.
|
On March 15 2012 04:01 sm0b wrote:
why all the hate in the thread? Im a die hard Starcraft fan and player and i dont love starcraft because if how popular it is or how much money is in it. I love starcraft becaus i love starcraft. I dont care what anyone else thinks of it. People who love other games shoupd feel the same way. I think its awesome esports is growing in the states and doing well in korea. Who cares if LoL is #1, i still get to enjoy the GSL :D
People care because if LoL is #1, they fear that there might not be a lasting GSL. The question is whether or not "this town aint big enough for the both of us". I think maybe the underlying question is if both can be successful rather than everyone wrestling over which one will emerge victorious.
|
On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game.
The thing is - in MOBA games you're not balancing 90 factions because people aren't restricted to playing one champion. Nobody plays Shen and only Shen in LoL. The champions don't have to be balanced against each other because teams can pick and choose which champion they use depending on what they feel is better.
In MOBA games, what ends up happening is that there is a set of heroes that pros think are better than other heroes, and those heroes keep getting banned/picked. The lack of balance is self-correcting in the meta-game.
|
I find it incredibly funny that people get super defensive about LoL on a Starcraft based community site/forum. Of course people on Team Liquid are going to bash LoL. It's like going to the Battlefield forums and saying Call of Duty is better than you.
The whole skill argument is lame. I honestly don't know much about LoL. I played to level 30, got to 1650 rating on the ladder in about 400 games played so my in depth knowledge of it isn't very high. However the community in game makes me nauseous. They are a caustic bunch that remind me of angsty junior high kids at recess. I couldn't get into how the game felt or looked. The whole experience reminded me of a cheap flash game for kids. All the big boobed female champions and cutesy little fur champs just felt immature.
What Riot is doing though is great for esports as a whole and more people need to realize that. It's not about what takes the most skill it's about pushing this idea to the masses so people can make money doing what they love. Besides different games demand different skill sets. Instead of hating on Riot and LoL why not take all that energy and direct it at Blizzard through emails and forums (in a coherent, civilized manner) to show them we care about this stuff and they need to step it up.
|
Also, are mods completely ignoring this thread for some reason? Some of the flaming going on here is just ridiculous. Especially from this Red_b kid. So much trollbaiting he's almost making ME mad and I've been laughing so hard at all of these "I could get 2k Elo in 2 weeks cuz I was MASTERS in sc2" posts.
|
On March 15 2012 04:09 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. That's the thing - in MOBA games you're not balancing 90 factions because people aren't restricted to playing one champion. Nobody plays Shen and only Shen in LoL. The champions don't have to be balanced against each other because teams can pick and choose which champion they use depending on what they feel is better. In MOBA games, what ends up happening is that there is a set of heroes that pros think are better than other heroes, and those heroes keep getting banned/picked. The lack of balance is self-correcting in the meta-game.
would you say the lack of balance in MOBA games is acceptable similar to how fighting games consider their lack of balance acceptable due to a sort of "tier" system?
|
LoL becomes no. 1 esport?
I guess in a few years these people will move on to watching paint dry and grass grow because that's even more casual.
|
On March 15 2012 04:06 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:54 ACrow wrote:On March 15 2012 03:48 Glaceau wrote:On March 15 2012 03:47 lundell100 wrote:
I feel like these threads escalate into HONvsLoLvsDotA-arguments instantly; I still can't fathom why people can't enjoy one game without hating the other. no one from LoL hates HON or DOTA. just the butthurt elitists that are mad their game isnt as popular for whatever reason so they have to bash its skill level. children will be children. Might I cite what you wrote just a few posts above: On March 15 2012 03:37 Glaceau wrote:
sorry that your shitty sc2 game sucks, brood war was 100x better and that garbage game takes no skill and has no viewership qualities. sorry to break it to you.
and if you're not defending sc2 then what the fuck are you defending rofl? this game is about sc2 vs LoL not bw vs lol. dumbass cant even read. Now what does that make you? Enjoy your time off of TL once a mod gets to it Where in that quote is he trashing HoN or Dota. I must have missed it. Also, whining about LoL imabalance is probably the dumbest shit in the world. Lol had NEVER had a problem with balance at the top level. Tournament games are always played 1 patch back to allow teams to not have to play vs a brand new hero/balance changes. There's also 6 bans and heroes that you might think are strong are perfectly fine in competetive play. Just because you got curb stomped by mordekaiser doesnt mean the game is imbalanced LoL.
Let me help you:
just the butthurt elitists that are mad their game isnt as popular for whatever reason so they have to bash its skill level. children will be children
->
sorry that your shitty sc2 game sucks, brood war was 100x better and that garbage game takes no skill and has no viewership qualities. sorry to break it to you.
Now, if you say SC2-bashing is ok while HoN or Dota bashing is not...welll... I guess you're just a troll.
Anyways, the amount of bashing and flaming in this thread makes my brain hurt. Grow up guys!
|
On March 15 2012 04:11 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:09 Azarkon wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. That's the thing - in MOBA games you're not balancing 90 factions because people aren't restricted to playing one champion. Nobody plays Shen and only Shen in LoL. The champions don't have to be balanced against each other because teams can pick and choose which champion they use depending on what they feel is better. In MOBA games, what ends up happening is that there is a set of heroes that pros think are better than other heroes, and those heroes keep getting banned/picked. The lack of balance is self-correcting in the meta-game. would you say the lack of balance in MOBA games is acceptable similar to how fighting games consider their lack of balance acceptable due to a sort of "tier" system?
I don't know enough about fighting games to comment, but the analogy I would make is with RTS strategies. Picks/bans are a strategic choice. SC doesn't balance strategies against each other - LoL doesn't balance the choice of champions against each other. Better picks/bans are better. The drawback to not having balanced champions is just that there are less strategies that can be played. The game is still balanced at the competitive level because pro teams will find and pick the best strategies.
|
This just in, soccer is too casual to be a sport because it's not as hardcore as free climbing.
|
On March 15 2012 03:21 iCanada wrote:I don't understand, if LoL is so easy then how come all of you aren't pro-LoL players making hundreds of thousands of dollars to just play an easy game? Sure LoL may have a lower mechanical requirement than say Broodwar, but you can't just say it is easy because you have to compete against other players... technically the difficulty isn't the game/UI itself but the players playing against you. Its just like say Football or basketball. To play Soccer you don't have to fight the games UI in order to play effectively... in fact I think even LoL's UI is more technical and complicated than soccer's UI... yet I would bet my life half of you would consider Soccer a more competitive sport than League of Legends is, despite the fact that man... Soccer is an "easier" game than LoL just like LoL is an easier game than SC2 (Or hell, like SC2 is an easier game than BW ).
I think people value the complexity regardless of whether "difficulty" is determined by your relative ability to other competitors.
Without sufficient complexity, the skill gaps between players can begin to taper off. Making it increasingly harder to become better than your opponent as both your skills increase. Even though at lower skill levels, being a little bit better and more knowledgeable on the basics may make a huge difference and assure you victory over your opponent, without complexity it becomes harder to separate yourself from the other competitors as both your skill levels increase.
I watch LoL streams and tournaments and I enjoy the game, but I can definitely see people's problem with it's lack of complexity. When you watch pro players individually in the solo/duo queue, they really aren't able to dominate as you may expect from what should be the large skill gap between them and their amateur opponent. With greater complexity, a pro player would be able to take advantage of their greater skill and certainly not be losing in a 1 on 1 with a random person who plays LoL for fun sometimes.
Now I do think the one saving grace for LoL is that it is a team-based game. And the team aspect alone can create lots of complexity. And so when pro teams are playing, there's a lot more potential for complex team-related strategy. This is what allows for pro teams to consistently beat other pro teams.
I still believe there is certainly plenty of merit to criticizing LoL's low complexity, though. I don't think this means it can't be an enjoyable game to watch, but we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss negative comments as thoughtless haters.
On the other hand, LoL's low complexity is probably what is most driving its success. So maybe low complexity isn't all that bad.
|
On March 15 2012 04:16 Befree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:21 iCanada wrote:I don't understand, if LoL is so easy then how come all of you aren't pro-LoL players making hundreds of thousands of dollars to just play an easy game? Sure LoL may have a lower mechanical requirement than say Broodwar, but you can't just say it is easy because you have to compete against other players... technically the difficulty isn't the game/UI itself but the players playing against you. Its just like say Football or basketball. To play Soccer you don't have to fight the games UI in order to play effectively... in fact I think even LoL's UI is more technical and complicated than soccer's UI... yet I would bet my life half of you would consider Soccer a more competitive sport than League of Legends is, despite the fact that man... Soccer is an "easier" game than LoL just like LoL is an easier game than SC2 (Or hell, like SC2 is an easier game than BW ). I think people value the complexity regardless of whether "difficulty" is determined by your relative ability to other competitors. Without sufficient complexity, the skill gaps between players can begin to taper off. Making it increasingly harder to become better than your opponent as both your skills increase. Even though at lower skill levels, being a little bit better and more knowledgeable on the basics may make a huge difference and assure you victory over your opponent, without complexity it becomes harder to separate yourself from the other competitors as both your skill levels increase. I watch LoL streams and tournaments and I enjoy the game, but I can definitely see people's problem with it's lack of complexity. When you watch pro players individually in the solo/duo queue, they really aren't able to dominate as you may expect from what should be the large skill gap between them and their amateur opponent. With greater complexity, a pro player would be able to take advantage of their greater skill and certainly not be losing in a 1 on 1 with a random person who plays LoL for fun sometimes. Now I do think the one saving grace for LoL is that it is a team-based game. And the team aspect alone can create lots of complexity. And so when pro teams are playing, there's a lot more potential for complex team-related strategy. This is what allows for pro teams to consistently beat other pro teams. I still believe there is certainly plenty of merit to criticizing LoL's low complexity, though. I don't think this means it can't be an enjoyable game to watch, but we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss negative comments as thoughtless haters. On the other hand, LoL's low complexity is probably what is most driving its success. So maybe low complexity isn't all that bad.
The bolded part, that's because they are queued up vs people of similar solo skills. The people up there in the 2300-2400 elo are very very good players. Not all of them are in teams that go to big lans, but they are individually talented players. They aren't playing vs total amateurs, they're playing vs peers.
|
On March 15 2012 04:16 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:11 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 04:09 Azarkon wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. That's the thing - in MOBA games you're not balancing 90 factions because people aren't restricted to playing one champion. Nobody plays Shen and only Shen in LoL. The champions don't have to be balanced against each other because teams can pick and choose which champion they use depending on what they feel is better. In MOBA games, what ends up happening is that there is a set of heroes that pros think are better than other heroes, and those heroes keep getting banned/picked. The lack of balance is self-correcting in the meta-game. would you say the lack of balance in MOBA games is acceptable similar to how fighting games consider their lack of balance acceptable due to a sort of "tier" system? I don't know enough about fighting games to comment, but the analogy I would make is with RTS strategies. Picks/bans are a strategic choice. SC doesn't balance strategies against each other - LoL doesn't balance the choice of champions against each other. Better picks/bans are better. The drawback to not having balanced champions is just that there are less strategies that can be played. The game is still balanced at the competitive level because pro teams will find and pick the best strategies.
Well the problem is that people consider dominating "strategies" as a form of imbalance. For example, the "1-1-1" strategy in Protoss vs Terran has been the butt of a lot of balance critique because of how strong of a strategy it is and how dominant in the pro scene it was. If LoL champion-picking is similar to how starcraft players choose their strategies, are there dominant champion picks or combinations that can be considered imbalanced? With so many heroes id expect so, and the first thing that comes to mind right now is WoW Arena with druids and warlocks tearing up pro scenes as a combo.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
