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Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 01:25 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 00:56 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 00:47 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 00:38 Fawkes wrote:On March 15 2012 00:28 RonNation wrote:this is NOT good for esports  yeah man...like not good...right? why the hell is it not good for esports? just because the game you favour isn't #1 anymore? In my view, I think it's problematic that a game like SC2 would be the frontrunner of e-sports because it has less appeal to those outside of gaming. Sure, SC2 has a larger casual player fanbase, but the credibility of esports in expansion is its ability to reach beyond the player-base into the broader mainstream population. BW is just better as a spectator sport. Many SC2 players I know readily acknowledge that it's not really interesting to watch. For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in BW is incredibly intuitive, whereas SC2 is bad. Second, BW is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Third, SC2 is bad. [Edit]: lol at the failure of the kotaku article, where having the largest singular instance of cash prize suddenly makes something the biggest esport... Fix'd. See? I can turn any vague and unconvincing argument by just replacing a few words and a sentence. \o/ This is seriously one of the most inane and brainless posts I have ever read on TL, I am just speechless at the overwhelming lack of logic in your massive mischaracterization of my post. The real quotation: For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in SC2 is incredibly intuitive, whereas the AOS (or MOBA, but I refer the old WC3 terminology :3) notion of "lanes" of automatically spawning creep, towers, and champions is not so intuitive. Your bullshit: For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in BW is incredibly intuitive, whereas SC2 is bad. Seriously? Did your common sense just decide to go AWOL here? The basic concept of two armies building up resources and troops to destroy each other is exactly the same fundamental RTS outline of BOTH BW and SC2. Your misrepresentation of my post is absolutely terrible, here, because you CAN'T distinguish BW/SC2. On the other hand, there's a clear difference between SC2 and LoL. LoL is a bunch of heroes fighting along three corridors lined with towers, where troops automatically spawn in regular intervals. Please tell me where, anywhere in reality, a person thinks of war as a bunch of people earning money from every kill in order to buy combat-enhancing items that allow them to destroy towers and therefore defeat the opposing faction. Now, I'll grant that LoL still in some senses simulates war, that spawns are supposed to be the small sampling of squads in a larger army and so on, but the degree in which it abstracts war is without a doubt much less intuitive to a third party than the traditional RTS of gathering resources and building and army. The real quotation: Second, Starcraft is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Your bullshit: Second, BW is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Again, you're just spouting gibberish. Your skewed version of my post presents NO DIFFERENCE between BW or SC2, since both obviously involve visual micro-movements such as the split of marines in many directions in a split second (whether it be against lurkers or banelings doesn't matter). On the other hand, what does the layperson see when they watch LoL? They can hear a lot of clicking in LoL, sure, but SC2 at the very least has the person also moving their screens to multiple instances rapidly, which at least shows that they're doing a lot of different things in a lot of different areas at once, a skill of multitasking. Since LoL screens don't really jump all over the place, all that clicking doesn't really sound impressive. Can they see player builds? Not really, since builds are composed of a hero-set of abilities and items that an ordinary layperson wouldn't be familiar with, but any layperson can intuitively see aspects of Starcraft builds like a 6pool ling rush as a very early attack, or a quick expansion as an economically quick move to take. Maybe the actual battles within LoL? A series of spells cast in conjunction with each other. Sure, it may take skill to successfully pull off the kill, but visually, aside from the flashy lights and sounds, you don't actually see the skill in a tangible form, whereas the parting of marines as if they were the Red Sea under Moses is very apparent. The real quotation: Third, LoL encounters the same issues of CS in its 5v5 formatting, where its difficult to truly observe all the happenings in a game where there are often 10 multiple different instances of players that compose the overall game. Your bullshit: Third, SC2 is bad. --> Seriously, this is where you out your post as a load of blind foolishness. Apparently, you couldn't even comprehend the simple logic of my point enough to even type it out, let alone attempt to refute it, where I clearly explained in the actual quotation.
Someone is really really angry right now.
Edit: Also, if someone finds a game where the point is to go somewhere and kill the other guy not intuitive, there's something wrong with that picture.
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On March 15 2012 04:21 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:16 Azarkon wrote:On March 15 2012 04:11 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 04:09 Azarkon wrote:On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game. That's the thing - in MOBA games you're not balancing 90 factions because people aren't restricted to playing one champion. Nobody plays Shen and only Shen in LoL. The champions don't have to be balanced against each other because teams can pick and choose which champion they use depending on what they feel is better. In MOBA games, what ends up happening is that there is a set of heroes that pros think are better than other heroes, and those heroes keep getting banned/picked. The lack of balance is self-correcting in the meta-game. would you say the lack of balance in MOBA games is acceptable similar to how fighting games consider their lack of balance acceptable due to a sort of "tier" system? I don't know enough about fighting games to comment, but the analogy I would make is with RTS strategies. Picks/bans are a strategic choice. SC doesn't balance strategies against each other - LoL doesn't balance the choice of champions against each other. Better picks/bans are better. The drawback to not having balanced champions is just that there are less strategies that can be played. The game is still balanced at the competitive level because pro teams will find and pick the best strategies. Well the problem is that people consider dominating "strategies" as a form of imbalance. For example, the "1-1-1" strategy in Protoss vs Terran has been the butt of a lot of balance critique because of how strong of a strategy it is and how dominant in the pro scene it was. If LoL champion-picking is similar to how starcraft players choose their strategies, are there dominant champion picks or combinations that can be considered imbalanced? With so many heroes id expect so, and the first thing that comes to mind right now is WoW Arena with druids and warlocks tearing up pro scenes as a combo.
There are team comps that focus on different areas like aoe comps, poke comps and such but no one comp is unbeatable nor is any one champion something you cannot counter or deal with with a comp or teamplay.
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On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general.
I have the exact opposite feeling.
I wrote a post earlier in this thread...
"My personal reason for switching over to mostly LoL is that I don't think this game is close to balanced below pro level. Having the option to FFE into 8 gates and beat top 8 Master Zergs, likewise for 4-gate in PvP... why would I do anything else?
I could play more macro oriented, but why would I put MORE mechanical demand on myself for LESS chance of winning so that eventually when my mechanics are good enough I can play the top 0.1%? No thanks. If using easy strategies will land me in the top 4%, then I will do just that.
...Only people with deep mastery of the game will be able play out the game in a non-derpy way."
Also, your claim about being disadvantaged against level 30s is exaggerated. I'm level 11 and I play with my level 30 friends and it's fine... in fact I do really well. I don't even have Flash yet and my last game was 7/0/10.
I felt the opposite when I started SC2. My rise from Bronze to Masters was almost purely mechanics. Strategy wasn't very important, and still isn't that deep in SC2. SC2 is actually not as strategic as LoL for anyone below the top level because all ins are too powerful.
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On March 15 2012 04:16 Befree wrote:
On the other hand, LoL's low complexity is probably what is most driving its success. So maybe low complexity isn't all that bad.
Very interesting! its actually really common for me to hear from my friends "i dont know why i lost!" and its very common here on the starcraft forums. The level of complexity in Starcraft is fairly high, and maybe that is driving some people towards slightly simpler genres? In a discussion of popularity this would be pretty important to address, but I think people worry that the popularization of a less complex game as an esport will reward casualness. Do you think the complexity "ceiling" of LoL is as high as Starcraft's even though it might be agreed upon that at least in 99% of the scene, it's complexity is lower?
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Good for them, I'm happy that there are a lot of people who enjoy watching LoL. Anyways, BW is and will remain the most competitive esport.
Unlike LoL, which is very casual friendly, Starcraft is not for the simple minded; the differences in terms of popularity are understandable. What I don't understand is how can people watch a game that features only 1 (one) map, not to mention that during games, most of the times nothing happens. In other games, especially other competitive games, the environments are varied, and stuff happens right off the bat.
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It seems that Riot's efforts are starting to pay off on a global scale. I don't understand the hate against LoL. The game's pretty easy to understand, but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Like in every other game, I'm pretty sure that there are small things in LoL which make it great(like marine splitting in SC2).
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On March 15 2012 04:27 Al Bundy wrote:
Unlike LoL, which is very casual friendly, Starcraft is not for the simple minded; the differences in terms of popularity are understandable. What I don't understand is how can people watch a game that features only 1 (one) map, not to mention that during games, most of the times nothing happens. In other games, especially other competitive games, the environments are varied, and stuff happens right off the bat.
I have the same curiosity. You can't blame people for what they want to watch, but it seriously confuses me how people can watch LoL for the reasons you stated.
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On March 15 2012 04:05 JiYan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:57 iCanada wrote:On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote:
Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general. The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch. Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s. Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game.
Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover...
Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves.
For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head).
Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well.
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does it come as a surprise that stupid people are the majority?
I don't understand how LoL is a spectator esport. Its just flashy with cool character designs and you use 5 keys to cast spells. You might as well stand next to me and watch me play Devil May Cry 4.
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On March 15 2012 04:25 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 01:25 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 00:56 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 00:47 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 00:38 Fawkes wrote:On March 15 2012 00:28 RonNation wrote:this is NOT good for esports yeah man...like not good...right? why the hell is it not good for esports? just because the game you favour isn't #1 anymore? In my view, I think it's problematic that a game like SC2 would be the frontrunner of e-sports because it has less appeal to those outside of gaming. Sure, SC2 has a larger casual player fanbase, but the credibility of esports in expansion is its ability to reach beyond the player-base into the broader mainstream population. BW is just better as a spectator sport. Many SC2 players I know readily acknowledge that it's not really interesting to watch. For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in BW is incredibly intuitive, whereas SC2 is bad. Second, BW is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Third, SC2 is bad. [Edit]: lol at the failure of the kotaku article, where having the largest singular instance of cash prize suddenly makes something the biggest esport... Fix'd. See? I can turn any vague and unconvincing argument by just replacing a few words and a sentence. \o/ This is seriously one of the most inane and brainless posts I have ever read on TL, I am just speechless at the overwhelming lack of logic in your massive mischaracterization of my post. The real quotation: For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in SC2 is incredibly intuitive, whereas the AOS (or MOBA, but I refer the old WC3 terminology :3) notion of "lanes" of automatically spawning creep, towers, and champions is not so intuitive. Your bullshit: For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in BW is incredibly intuitive, whereas SC2 is bad. Seriously? Did your common sense just decide to go AWOL here? The basic concept of two armies building up resources and troops to destroy each other is exactly the same fundamental RTS outline of BOTH BW and SC2. Your misrepresentation of my post is absolutely terrible, here, because you CAN'T distinguish BW/SC2. On the other hand, there's a clear difference between SC2 and LoL. LoL is a bunch of heroes fighting along three corridors lined with towers, where troops automatically spawn in regular intervals. Please tell me where, anywhere in reality, a person thinks of war as a bunch of people earning money from every kill in order to buy combat-enhancing items that allow them to destroy towers and therefore defeat the opposing faction. Now, I'll grant that LoL still in some senses simulates war, that spawns are supposed to be the small sampling of squads in a larger army and so on, but the degree in which it abstracts war is without a doubt much less intuitive to a third party than the traditional RTS of gathering resources and building and army. The real quotation: Second, Starcraft is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Your bullshit: Second, BW is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Again, you're just spouting gibberish. Your skewed version of my post presents NO DIFFERENCE between BW or SC2, since both obviously involve visual micro-movements such as the split of marines in many directions in a split second (whether it be against lurkers or banelings doesn't matter). On the other hand, what does the layperson see when they watch LoL? They can hear a lot of clicking in LoL, sure, but SC2 at the very least has the person also moving their screens to multiple instances rapidly, which at least shows that they're doing a lot of different things in a lot of different areas at once, a skill of multitasking. Since LoL screens don't really jump all over the place, all that clicking doesn't really sound impressive. Can they see player builds? Not really, since builds are composed of a hero-set of abilities and items that an ordinary layperson wouldn't be familiar with, but any layperson can intuitively see aspects of Starcraft builds like a 6pool ling rush as a very early attack, or a quick expansion as an economically quick move to take. Maybe the actual battles within LoL? A series of spells cast in conjunction with each other. Sure, it may take skill to successfully pull off the kill, but visually, aside from the flashy lights and sounds, you don't actually see the skill in a tangible form, whereas the parting of marines as if they were the Red Sea under Moses is very apparent. The real quotation: Third, LoL encounters the same issues of CS in its 5v5 formatting, where its difficult to truly observe all the happenings in a game where there are often 10 multiple different instances of players that compose the overall game. Your bullshit: Third, SC2 is bad. --> Seriously, this is where you out your post as a load of blind foolishness. Apparently, you couldn't even comprehend the simple logic of my point enough to even type it out, let alone attempt to refute it, where I clearly explained in the actual quotation. Someone is really really angry right now.
he definitely mad
bw4lifeyo
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On March 15 2012 04:29 Bunn wrote:
It seems that Riot's efforts are starting to pay off on a global scale. I don't understand the hate against LoL. The game's pretty easy to understand, but that doesn't mean it doesn't take any skill. Like in every other game, I'm pretty sure that there are small things in LoL which make it great(like marine splitting in SC2).
The reason so many hate in it is because its considered easier and with lower skill ceiling than other similar games such as Dota and HoN, yet its the most popular of the bunch. Lol is considered "for the casual gamer".
I do believe Valve might take over the Moba market with Dota 2 once it comes out thought.
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all i can say is, riot did a better job than bliz on reaching out to people.
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oh. kotaku bringing this news? don't they just sensationalize everything they write so people read them?
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On March 15 2012 04:31 crystyxn wrote:
does it come as a surprise that stupid people are the majority?
I don't understand how LoL is a spectator esport. Its just flashy with cool character designs and you use 5 keys to cast spells. You might as well stand next to me and watch me play Devil May Cry 4.
Dude, I know a game just like that, except you might use three more keys.
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This thread makes me sad. Not because Lol is #1 in Korea or anything, but because the people in this thread are assholes. I feel bad for the mods who are likely going to come in here and warn/ban half of the posts because they're just mindless flames at one game or the other.
Hey guys, I like LoL. I also like Sc2 and BW. According to many of you, because I like LoL I'm stupid. Jesus this thread is full of malice. This thread is like poison.
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lol at the guys thinking watching SC2 takes some kind of "big mind". Watching an SC2 game is actually "easyer" than watching a Lol (or Dota/Hon) game.
Now i don't like LoL.. I think Dota is like 10 times better... But lol at you guys thinking it takes any kind of brainpower to watch SC2...
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On March 15 2012 04:31 crystyxn wrote:
does it come as a surprise that stupid people are the majority?
I don't understand how LoL is a spectator esport. Its just flashy with cool character designs and you use 5 keys to cast spells. You might as well stand next to me and watch me play Devil May Cry 4.
How many keys do you use for SC2 or BW, number keys excepted?
And the races are pretty cool, huh?
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On March 15 2012 04:35 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:31 crystyxn wrote:
does it come as a surprise that stupid people are the majority?
I don't understand how LoL is a spectator esport. Its just flashy with cool character designs and you use 5 keys to cast spells. You might as well stand next to me and watch me play Devil May Cry 4. Dude, I know a game just like that, except you might use three more keys.
You little rascal :p
Jk. This thread so takes me back to 2010.
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Hey guy, let's all get real mad at each other for liking video games that I don't like.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 15 2012 04:36 Witten wrote:
This thread makes me sad. Not because Lol is #1 in Korea or anything, but because the people in this thread are assholes. I feel bad for the mods who are likely going to come in here and warn/ban half of the posts because they're just mindless flames at one game or the other.
Hey guys, I like LoL. I also like Sc2 and BW. According to many of you, because I like LoL I'm stupid. Jesus this thread is full of malice. This thread is like poison.
It's not my fault if I want to be sarcastic and people get really angry because of it. People in this thread are setting so many double standards and defending them for so many dumb reasons it's pretty ridiculous, regardless of what side they're on.
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EPT
