On March 15 2012 04:51 TheToast wrote: Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game?
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
On March 15 2012 02:45 Bjoernzor wrote: As a person who plays LoL almost daily with friends, often 5+ hours, Im so fucking angry at the world for accepting this game as an E-sport. It's just not designed for it (Anti-fun concept derp) it is in ground and basis designed as the casual version of DotA/HoN. Riot is playing it off awesomely though and i wish blizzard would follow their concept. Just because it has a lot of players doesn't make it suitable for an E-sport. To me it makes about as much sense as playing farmville competitively.
Serious question: why do you care?
Is there any proof that LoL is pulling viewers or prize money from SC2? Is there anything to suggest LoL will kill BW, seriously if WC3/Dota/SC2/etc couldn't kill BW in Korea does LoL really stand a chance? Why is this such a huge issue to you that people may want to watch LoL played competitively?
I ask this as someone who has never watched nor played LoL.
If anything LoL is pulling new people into e-sports; people who may expand to watching SC2/BW. So why is this bad exactly???
You can't play it competitively in the same aspect as other competitive games (I'm open for debate on this, just PM me). That is the reason i do not want to see it played as an E-sport.
Huh?
That's like saying hockey isn't as competitive as baseball, so hockey shouldn't be played as a sport. It's a rediculous argument to make. Your argument (as well as arguments of many others here) boils down to you don't like the game, so therefore it shouldn't be an esport. You admit that it could lead to more people watching SC, and would help esports as a whole. So why shouldn't it be played in tournaments? If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Other than that, I don't see any harm in people watching LoL.
And if people start watching sc2/BW because of LoL that is amazing but to me it simply doesn't justify making a casual game into an E-sport.
You need justification for this now? Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game?
I don't watch or play LoL, nor am I likely to start. But if LoL starts popping up in professional leagues I don't give a shit one way or the other. Great for the LoL players I guess, but it doesn't affect me any.
No, that's like saying jumping on as many water bottles as you can in a minute should not be a sport. Hockey IS as competitive as baseball in that matter, stop making up holes in arguments that does not exist. And no, there is no great wizard of E-sports no matter of how much I like the idea. You do not need justification for that, as you can see, because it is being played as an E-sport.... I am of course talking about my own opinions as we all do. Oh, and as i said earlier in the same argument, I love to play LoL. I play it with my friends almost every day for long periods of time, way more than i play sc2 or BW. And the simple point of quoting single pieces of a post to try and disprove the whole argument is just as stupid as you claim the arguments that you made up for me were.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
I'm failing to see the difference.
I control one unit.
Look at my awesome micro guys!
If you want to be impressed by crystal-clear execution, go watch some Guilty Gear. Not a PC video game where you play with 50+ ping. And I'm telling that as a LoL and GG player :p
Micro isn't was LoL is about at all, neither it is for SC2 or BW. Micro feats happen sporadically and usually are the result of good and fast decision making, but that's not the core of the game, neither is it what you're looking for as a spectator.
On March 15 2012 02:45 Bjoernzor wrote: As a person who plays LoL almost daily with friends, often 5+ hours, Im so fucking angry at the world for accepting this game as an E-sport. It's just not designed for it (Anti-fun concept derp) it is in ground and basis designed as the casual version of DotA/HoN. Riot is playing it off awesomely though and i wish blizzard would follow their concept. Just because it has a lot of players doesn't make it suitable for an E-sport. To me it makes about as much sense as playing farmville competitively.
Serious question: why do you care?
Is there any proof that LoL is pulling viewers or prize money from SC2? Is there anything to suggest LoL will kill BW, seriously if WC3/Dota/SC2/etc couldn't kill BW in Korea does LoL really stand a chance? Why is this such a huge issue to you that people may want to watch LoL played competitively?
I ask this as someone who has never watched nor played LoL.
If anything LoL is pulling new people into e-sports; people who may expand to watching SC2/BW. So why is this bad exactly???
You can't play it competitively in the same aspect as other competitive games (I'm open for debate on this, just PM me). That is the reason i do not want to see it played as an E-sport.
Huh?
That's like saying hockey isn't as competitive as baseball, so hockey shouldn't be played as a sport. It's a rediculous argument to make. Your argument (as well as arguments of many others here) boils down to you don't like the game, so therefore it shouldn't be an esport. You admit that it could lead to more people watching SC, and would help esports as a whole. So why shouldn't it be played in tournaments? If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Other than that, I don't see any harm in people watching LoL.
And if people start watching sc2/BW because of LoL that is amazing but to me it simply doesn't justify making a casual game into an E-sport.
You need justification for this now? Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game?
I don't watch or play LoL, nor am I likely to start. But if LoL starts popping up in professional leagues I don't give a shit one way or the other. Great for the LoL players I guess, but it doesn't affect me any.
But logic and reason generally escaped the people who posted in this thread, how dare you bring such reasonable ideas up.
Yes, because your contribution of inescapable logic and sound reasoning was of such incredible magnitude that it shook the very basis of my argument. No, you just posted a bunch a line of B because you can not come up with anything of value to say.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
On March 15 2012 04:51 TheToast wrote: Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game?
On March 15 2012 02:45 Bjoernzor wrote: As a person who plays LoL almost daily with friends, often 5+ hours, Im so fucking angry at the world for accepting this game as an E-sport. It's just not designed for it (Anti-fun concept derp) it is in ground and basis designed as the casual version of DotA/HoN. Riot is playing it off awesomely though and i wish blizzard would follow their concept. Just because it has a lot of players doesn't make it suitable for an E-sport. To me it makes about as much sense as playing farmville competitively.
Serious question: why do you care?
Is there any proof that LoL is pulling viewers or prize money from SC2? Is there anything to suggest LoL will kill BW, seriously if WC3/Dota/SC2/etc couldn't kill BW in Korea does LoL really stand a chance? Why is this such a huge issue to you that people may want to watch LoL played competitively?
I ask this as someone who has never watched nor played LoL.
If anything LoL is pulling new people into e-sports; people who may expand to watching SC2/BW. So why is this bad exactly???
You can't play it competitively in the same aspect as other competitive games (I'm open for debate on this, just PM me). That is the reason i do not want to see it played as an E-sport.
Huh?
That's like saying hockey isn't as competitive as baseball, so hockey shouldn't be played as a sport. It's a rediculous argument to make. Your argument (as well as arguments of many others here) boils down to you don't like the game, so therefore it shouldn't be an esport. You admit that it could lead to more people watching SC, and would help esports as a whole. So why shouldn't it be played in tournaments? If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Other than that, I don't see any harm in people watching LoL.
And if people start watching sc2/BW because of LoL that is amazing but to me it simply doesn't justify making a casual game into an E-sport.
You need justification for this now? Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game?
I don't watch or play LoL, nor am I likely to start. But if LoL starts popping up in professional leagues I don't give a shit one way or the other. Great for the LoL players I guess, but it doesn't affect me any.
No, that's like saying jumping on as many water bottles as you can in a minute should not be a sport. Hockey IS as competitive as baseball in that matter, stop making up holes in arguments that does not exist. And no, there is no great wizard of E-sports no matter of how much I like the idea. You do not need justification for that, as you can see, because it is being played as an E-sport.... I am of course talking about my own opinions as we all do. Oh, and as i said earlier in the same argument, I love to play LoL. I play it with my friends almost every day for long periods of time, way more than i play sc2 or BW. And the simple point of quoting single pieces of a post to try and disprove the whole argument is just as stupid as you claim the arguments that you made up for me were.
You're angry at the world because a game that you don't think fits your own nobody-else-cares-about-it-nor-understands criteria thinks that it is a sport...?
This is quite wild, wasn't expecting to see OGN go that deep into LoL..I wonder how much of the prize pool is sponsored by Riot games or whatever. While I am happy that competitive gaming is developing more, it is hard for me not to have that kneejerk reaction and say that SC2 as a game and community is much more deserving of this sort of money in Korea..I hope that eventually OGN gives it a chance.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
I'm failing to see the difference.
One requires far more accurate, frequent, and faster clicking of keys. And last-shotting is a very simple matter of timing. Now, I think most of this debate about "LoL vs. SC2" in terms of difficulty is different, as it is one of skill which is not directly correspondent to mechanics. Skill is some vague, arbtirary notion of innate easiness with which a person grasps a task, and LoL is very different with respect to the skills involved, such as teamwork and timing, whereas SC/SC2 is much more multi-task/speed oriented. For example, WC3 may be much less "mechanically" demanding than SC2, since its focused on a much narrower scope of units, but that doesn't mean that WC3 takes less skill, since many WC3 pros have been successful in SC2.
Of course, being TL, it's a pretty general norm that mechanics are valued as a primary element of skill, and in light of this criterion, I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in those haughty BW posts.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
I'm failing to see the difference.
Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL.
Both require hand movements
Both require decision making
Both require looking at the minimap (mirror)
Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas)
I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey....
On March 14 2012 20:00 Jakkerr wrote: It's quite sad that such an easy game is now the #1 E-sports game. That's like live broadcasting rock paper scissors
You're basically correct. I've played league with one hand while eating a chocolate bar before.
I've also played Starcraft Brood War exactly like this o.O
But could you actually play bw even moderately well when doing this?
I would say playing while under the influence of certain substances is harder than just eating a chocolate bar.
On March 15 2012 02:45 Bjoernzor wrote: As a person who plays LoL almost daily with friends, often 5+ hours, Im so fucking angry at the world for accepting this game as an E-sport. It's just not designed for it (Anti-fun concept derp) it is in ground and basis designed as the casual version of DotA/HoN. Riot is playing it off awesomely though and i wish blizzard would follow their concept. Just because it has a lot of players doesn't make it suitable for an E-sport. To me it makes about as much sense as playing farmville competitively.
Serious question: why do you care?
Is there any proof that LoL is pulling viewers or prize money from SC2? Is there anything to suggest LoL will kill BW, seriously if WC3/Dota/SC2/etc couldn't kill BW in Korea does LoL really stand a chance? Why is this such a huge issue to you that people may want to watch LoL played competitively?
I ask this as someone who has never watched nor played LoL.
If anything LoL is pulling new people into e-sports; people who may expand to watching SC2/BW. So why is this bad exactly???
You can't play it competitively in the same aspect as other competitive games (I'm open for debate on this, just PM me). That is the reason i do not want to see it played as an E-sport.
Huh?
That's like saying hockey isn't as competitive as baseball, so hockey shouldn't be played as a sport. It's a rediculous argument to make. Your argument (as well as arguments of many others here) boils down to you don't like the game, so therefore it shouldn't be an esport. You admit that it could lead to more people watching SC, and would help esports as a whole. So why shouldn't it be played in tournaments? If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Other than that, I don't see any harm in people watching LoL.
And if people start watching sc2/BW because of LoL that is amazing but to me it simply doesn't justify making a casual game into an E-sport.
You need justification for this now? Is there some grand wizard of esports who must grant thee permission to make a professional league for a casual game?
I don't watch or play LoL, nor am I likely to start. But if LoL starts popping up in professional leagues I don't give a shit one way or the other. Great for the LoL players I guess, but it doesn't affect me any.
No, that's like saying jumping on as many water bottles as you can in a minute should not be a sport. Hockey IS as competitive as baseball in that matter, stop making up holes in arguments that does not exist. And no, there is no great wizard of E-sports no matter of how much I like the idea. You do not need justification for that, as you can see, because it is being played as an E-sport.... I am of course talking about my own opinions as we all do. Oh, and as i said earlier in the same argument, I love to play LoL. I play it with my friends almost every day for long periods of time, way more than i play sc2 or BW. And the simple point of quoting single pieces of a post to try and disprove the whole argument is just as stupid as you claim the arguments that you made up for me were.
You're angry at the world because a game that you don't think fits your own nobody-else-cares-about-it-nor-understands criteria thinks that it is a sport...?
Yes, that is correct. Your much superior argument was?
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
I'm failing to see the difference.
Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL.
Both require hand movements
Both require decision making
Both require looking at the minimap (mirror)
Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas)
I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey....
Woah, woah, woah. Hold your horses right there. Clearly not every LoL player is good, so not every LoL player is an amazing driver. Stop making huge overarching assertions please. That's not what this thread is about.
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL.
Both require clicking.
Both require pressing few keys.
Both require looking at the minimap.
Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low.
One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them.
I'm failing to see the difference.
One requires far more accurate, frequent, and faster clicking of keys. And last-shotting is a very simple matter of timing. Now, I think most of this debate about "LoL vs. SC2" in terms of difficulty is different, as it is one of skill which is not directly correspondent to mechanics. Skill is some vague, arbtirary notion of innate easiness with which a person grasps a task, and LoL is very different with respect to the skills involved, such as teamwork and timing, whereas SC/SC2 is much more multi-task/speed oriented. For example, WC3 may be much less "mechanically" demanding than SC2, since its focused on a much narrower scope of units, but that doesn't mean that WC3 takes less skill, since many WC3 pros have been successful in SC2.
Of course, being TL, it's a pretty general norm that mechanics are valued as a primary element of skill, and in light of this criterion, I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in those haughty BW posts.
So what you're saying is skill is an ambiguous measurement and therefore people need to stop bitching about the game being a legitimate e-sport in Korea.
On March 15 2012 03:50 Kowalski wrote: Im gonna start of by saying i have played some LoL and i am terrible at it. i have a hard time accepting LoL as an E-sport for many reasons but the biggest one ( in my opinion ) being balance. Every now and then they throw in another hero or two and i just can not comprehend how on earth they can balance that with the other XX number of heroes. Obviously starcraft is not perfectly balanced either but they are doing a pretty good job on it. Another thing is in LoL you have levels a natural talent that just started playing will have a huge disadvantage playing a lvl 30 player, while in SC-SC2 its you your keyboard and your skill thats all there is to it. Please excuse my english, oh and i would love to hear a LoL player actually talk a bit on their opinion on new heroes being added to the game constantly and balance in general.
The game stays fairly balanced simply on the merit of being able to ban champions before the game and having the ability to counterpick your opponent. If something is flat out broken, it just gets banned every game then fixed the next patch.
Also, the game only places you with players in your own level group unless the lower level player groups with level 30 before hand (which is you willingly gimping yourself.). You will never have the situation where you start a new account and are playing against players with stat advantages against you because you only play with people from your level group. Level 5s get placed with other level 5s.
Allowing bans can be similar to how starcraft players veto maps, but the problem is that the pool is wayyy large. Most RTS games find difficulty in balancing their games simply because there are too many races / factions to balance equally. Starcraft having only 3 races makes things a little more simpler since there are only 6 matchups. In a game of 90 "factions" i dont see how its even possible to balance the game.
Only 21 of riots 94 champions weren't picked/banned in the 100 or so games played at IEM Hannover...
Banning champions is obvious, but the thing that keeps LoL (and any other moba) super balanced is that if something is really strong you can stop them from getting really strong by just picking a champion that beats them in lane because of say a range advantage, a sustain advatage, or say even a I just will kill you if you try to fight me 1 vs 1 advantage. Thats the thing, every champ has different kits, ranges, and powercurves.
For example say your opponent picks Irelia, you can just stop Irelia (a late game monster) from being a real threat late game by taking a champ that grab an advantage early game when she doesn't have a ton of tankiness/damage potential... and there are several of these champs (Chogath, Pantheon, Jarvan, Riven, Renekton, Nocturne etc off the top of my head).
Irelia might be a strong/imbalanced champion but you counter that... much like Reavers are a strong/imbalanced unit but you can counter that as well.
Out of curiosity: you pick your champion only once, before the game starts, right? So, every single game is a build order win?
Not really, because chances are you have each team countering one lane, and then bot lane always free farm. From there whomever farms brest from bad matchup gets advantage... and then teamfighst huge. getting map objectives buiggest part of LoL imo.
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