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On March 15 2012 05:33 KevinIX wrote:
I don't know why people say LoL is easy. If LoL were easy, everyone would have 2000 ELO. There is skill in that game, even if it is different than Starcraft.
Actually, ELO is a relative rating system, so it's literally impossible for everyone to have everyone at one ELO, high or low, so no, the existence of an ELO system doesn't demark a particular level of skill within a game.
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On March 15 2012 05:33 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +any seemingly easy task can be made challenging when you are trying to outplay another human being Have you ever played tic-tac-toe? More complexity (either depth or breadth) = broader and higher skill "ceilings" (almost all skill ceilings are soft).
Of course it doesn't count once there's a universally acknowledged "solution", since at that point you can no longer compete.
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On March 15 2012 05:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
People just have such difficulty understanding that competition is driven by the players, and that any seemingly easy task can be made challenging when you are trying to outplay another human being.
As I previously posted, if being intrinsically "harder" makes for better sports, then soccer would you be your "casual" and free climbing would be your 400APM hardcore games, and that we should all be trashing soccer for being an illegitimate sports because kicking a ball is so damn simple.
Agreed. Your competing against other humans. So how exactly does it make an easy game?
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On March 15 2012 05:36 archonOOid wrote:
the problem i have with SC2 is that the e-sports scene has been shoved down people's throats by Blizzard while on the other the e-sports scene in BW was founded by a grassroots movement that slowly built its way in Korea
Secondly the game itself isn't original because it's more like a copy of a original.
thirdly the game-play has been so simplified in stark contrast to the original that it feels watered down.
Fixed.
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On March 15 2012 05:36 archonOOid wrote:
the problem i have with LOL is that the e-sports scene has been created by riot games while on the other the e-sports scene in sc2 was founded by a grassroots movement.
Secondly the game itself isn't original because it's more like a copy of a original.
thirdly the game-play has been so simplified in stark contrast to the original that it feels watered down.
Are for rela? SC2 founded by a grassroots movement? Are you for rela? SC2 IS watered down in contrast to BW
EDIT: Are you for rela?
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On March 15 2012 05:25 Luepert wrote:
I think SC fans (of BW and SC2) need to unite. The conflict between the two communities is hurting starcraft as an esport. I think anyone, BW or SC2 can agree that any type of starcraft is better than LoL.
I may not speak for every BW fan out there, but I don't give two shits about E-sports. I just REALLY REALLY LOVE BW. I love playing it, I love watching it. Only after a BW game do I feel like yelling at the top of my lungs after a win or breathe a gasp of relief after a close loss. For some, that game they love SC2. For some, Dota. For others, LoL. And that's PERFECTLY FINE!!! Some of us, including me, bashed and still criticize SC2 because it was supposed to not just be a great game, but SUCCEED BW, and it has failed, in my mind, spectacularly.
I went off on a tangent there, but the point is this: don't think even for a moment that I, a BW fan, give a darn about SC2 or your precious E-sports for the sake of E-sports.
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MOBA came from RTS.
Its basically its baby.
any game growing as a competitive sport is a good thing. Most people in this thread are just -_________- and that face is all i can say for it, i have no words.
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On March 15 2012 05:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
People just have such difficulty understanding that competition is driven by the players, and that any seemingly easy task can be made challenging when you are trying to outplay another human being.
As I previously posted, if being intrinsically "harder" makes for better sports, then soccer would you be your "casual" and free climbing would be your 400APM hardcore games, and that we should all be trashing soccer for being an illegitimate sports because kicking a ball is so damn simple.
Are you kidding? Have you ever played sports before? I don't even like soccer that much but I recognize the skill you need to be good at it. It takes incredible footwork and stamina. There's nothing like that in games so they have to be either about extreme precision or speed and lol has none of that. It only has teamwork which any game with team play has.
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On March 15 2012 05:35 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:17 Bjoernzor wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL. Both require hand movements Both require decision making Both require looking at the minimap (mirror) Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas) I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey.... Woah, woah, woah. Hold your horses right there. Clearly not every LoL player is good, so not every LoL player is an amazing driver. Stop making huge overarching assertions please. That's not what this thread is about. On March 15 2012 05:16 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. One requires far more accurate, frequent, and faster clicking of keys. And last-shotting is a very simple matter of timing. Now, I think most of this debate about "LoL vs. SC2" in terms of difficulty is different, as it is one of skill which is not directly correspondent to mechanics. Skill is some vague, arbtirary notion of innate easiness with which a person grasps a task, and LoL is very different with respect to the skills involved, such as teamwork and timing, whereas SC/SC2 is much more multi-task/speed oriented. For example, WC3 may be much less "mechanically" demanding than SC2, since its focused on a much narrower scope of units, but that doesn't mean that WC3 takes less skill, since many WC3 pros have been successful in SC2. Of course, being TL, it's a pretty general norm that mechanics are valued as a primary element of skill, and in light of this criterion, I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in those haughty BW posts. So what you're saying is skill is an ambiguous measurement and therefore people need to stop bitching about the game being a legitimate e-sport in Korea. Skill is only one facet of a game, and an entirely different discussion. I would willingly argue that mechanics is more important in representing "gaming skill" than other skills involved in LoL, but that's neither here nor there because this thread is about LoL as an esport, not LoL merely as a test of skill. I've named numerous other concerns with LoL as the frontrunner of esports: On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: In my view, I think it's problematic that a game like LoL would be the frontrunner of e-sports because it has less appeal to those outside of gaming. Sure, LoL has a larger casual player fanbase, but the credibility of esports in expansion is its ability to reach beyond the player-base into the broader mainstream population. Starcraft is just better as a spectator sport. Many LoL players I know readily acknowledge that it's not really interesting to watch. For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in SC2 is incredibly intuitive, whereas the AOS (or MOBA, but I refer the old WC3 terminology :3) notion of "lanes" of automatically spawning creep, towers, and champions is not so intuitive. Second, Starcraft is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Third, LoL encounters the same issues of CS in its 5v5 formatting, where its difficult to truly observe all the happenings in a game where there are often 10 multiple different instances of players that compose the overall game. Another issue with LoL as a spectator sport that I didn't include in the post at that time is the matter of professionalism: as mentioned here, LoL has a problem with professionalism. It's this very problem that has caused my brother, an avid LoL player who watches stream, to adopt a negative view of esports with little legitimacy in the real world, as a bunch of loser nerds with zero social skills because of their inability to articulate and present themselves in a professional manner. Lack of professionalism in an e-sport? Where have I seen that recently...? Nah, definitely not in SC2. As we all know, streams in SC2 are so civil. There's not a single streamer that acts out of line, nor is there a single competitor that has ever caused an uproar in the community that makes people question the professionalism that goes into such a fine e-sport like SC2. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. All LoL streamers give off this terrible vibe that everyone participating in e-sports is an inarticulate geek. All the people who stream all the time, trying to teach their viewers, showcase their play, and have fun, are all bad examples that's keeping e-sports from developing.
No, you're not getting what I'm saying. You clearly did not check the linked thread, where a person with high exposure to both scenes mentioned that comparatively, LoL is lacking in professionalism. You clearly did not understand my statement when I said that this is the impression that my brother received, not an absolute statement categorizing LoL streamers. This simply is demonstrating the consequence of a lack of professionalism and its negative impact on esports, not a claim that all LoL streamers had this lack of professionalism.
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How come the "#1 esports games" doesn't have a pause system?
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On March 15 2012 05:44 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:35 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:17 Bjoernzor wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL. Both require hand movements Both require decision making Both require looking at the minimap (mirror) Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas) I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey.... Woah, woah, woah. Hold your horses right there. Clearly not every LoL player is good, so not every LoL player is an amazing driver. Stop making huge overarching assertions please. That's not what this thread is about. On March 15 2012 05:16 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. One requires far more accurate, frequent, and faster clicking of keys. And last-shotting is a very simple matter of timing. Now, I think most of this debate about "LoL vs. SC2" in terms of difficulty is different, as it is one of skill which is not directly correspondent to mechanics. Skill is some vague, arbtirary notion of innate easiness with which a person grasps a task, and LoL is very different with respect to the skills involved, such as teamwork and timing, whereas SC/SC2 is much more multi-task/speed oriented. For example, WC3 may be much less "mechanically" demanding than SC2, since its focused on a much narrower scope of units, but that doesn't mean that WC3 takes less skill, since many WC3 pros have been successful in SC2. Of course, being TL, it's a pretty general norm that mechanics are valued as a primary element of skill, and in light of this criterion, I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in those haughty BW posts. So what you're saying is skill is an ambiguous measurement and therefore people need to stop bitching about the game being a legitimate e-sport in Korea. Skill is only one facet of a game, and an entirely different discussion. I would willingly argue that mechanics is more important in representing "gaming skill" than other skills involved in LoL, but that's neither here nor there because this thread is about LoL as an esport, not LoL merely as a test of skill. I've named numerous other concerns with LoL as the frontrunner of esports: On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: In my view, I think it's problematic that a game like LoL would be the frontrunner of e-sports because it has less appeal to those outside of gaming. Sure, LoL has a larger casual player fanbase, but the credibility of esports in expansion is its ability to reach beyond the player-base into the broader mainstream population. Starcraft is just better as a spectator sport. Many LoL players I know readily acknowledge that it's not really interesting to watch. For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in SC2 is incredibly intuitive, whereas the AOS (or MOBA, but I refer the old WC3 terminology :3) notion of "lanes" of automatically spawning creep, towers, and champions is not so intuitive. Second, Starcraft is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Third, LoL encounters the same issues of CS in its 5v5 formatting, where its difficult to truly observe all the happenings in a game where there are often 10 multiple different instances of players that compose the overall game. Another issue with LoL as a spectator sport that I didn't include in the post at that time is the matter of professionalism: as mentioned here, LoL has a problem with professionalism. It's this very problem that has caused my brother, an avid LoL player who watches stream, to adopt a negative view of esports with little legitimacy in the real world, as a bunch of loser nerds with zero social skills because of their inability to articulate and present themselves in a professional manner. Lack of professionalism in an e-sport? Where have I seen that recently...? Nah, definitely not in SC2. As we all know, streams in SC2 are so civil. There's not a single streamer that acts out of line, nor is there a single competitor that has ever caused an uproar in the community that makes people question the professionalism that goes into such a fine e-sport like SC2. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. All LoL streamers give off this terrible vibe that everyone participating in e-sports is an inarticulate geek. All the people who stream all the time, trying to teach their viewers, showcase their play, and have fun, are all bad examples that's keeping e-sports from developing. No, you're not getting what I'm saying. You clearly did not check the linked thread, where a person with high exposure to both scenes mentioned that comparatively, LoL is lacking in professionalism. You clearly did not understand my statement when I said that this is the impression that my brother received, not an absolute statement categorizing LoL streamers. This simply is demonstrating the consequence of a lack of professionalism and its negative impact on esports, not a claim that all LoL streamers had this lack of professionalism.
The link is basically you using your brother's experience as a springboard to make the large overarching claim that LoL lacks professionalism, without ever mentioning who he watches. The word "comparatively" was never included in the link.
Okay. Let me try.
I only watch Sayle's stream. Therefore, I've come out of my BW streams thinking that all BW is fine and dandy. There's nothing wrong with the scene. kkzzz
Oh! And I also watch KawaiiRice's stream. Therefore, every SC2 player must play Osu and love Nana Mizuki. w00t
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On March 15 2012 05:44 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
People just have such difficulty understanding that competition is driven by the players, and that any seemingly easy task can be made challenging when you are trying to outplay another human being.
As I previously posted, if being intrinsically "harder" makes for better sports, then soccer would you be your "casual" and free climbing would be your 400APM hardcore games, and that we should all be trashing soccer for being an illegitimate sports because kicking a ball is so damn simple.
Are you kidding? Have you ever played sports before? I don't even like soccer that much but I recognize the skill you need to be good at it. It takes incredible footwork and stamina. There's nothing like that in games so they have to be either about extreme precision or speed and lol has none of that. It only has teamwork which any game with team play has.
What is chess then? Doesn't require extreme precision nor speed.
How come the "#1 esports games" doesn't have a pause system?
It does, in the tournament client. I don't think you'd want one in the normal client. People would abuse the crap out of it.
Also attack-moving. In a game where you're killing things I think the ability to a-move is slightly important.
It also has this. Can you people at least try to educate yourself about the game before you bash it?
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On March 15 2012 05:30 Seam wrote:
Why are people acting like this is BAD?
Isn't esports getting bigger what we WANT? Isn't LoL getting big literally what we were wanting?
SC2 isn't the only esport. It can't be the only esport. Not everyone finds it to their taste, but might like watching fighting games. Or Moba games.
We want to bring people into esports, not ONLY sc2.
Personally I have no interest in how succesful LoL is because I don't care much for the game itself or for spectating it. I don't really see the reasoning of being happy for "esports as a whole" especially when the whole scene is basically Riot's creation. If LoL is the future of esports I don't want to be a part of it. It would be like supportin baseball for example for the sake of sports if baseball was the biggest thing around...I hate baseball so why would I support it just for the hell of it? The product itself matters too regardless of esports as a whole. Just my 2c
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On March 15 2012 05:47 vOkk wrote:
How come the "#1 esports games" doesn't have a pause system?
This.
Also attack-moving. In a game where you're killing things I think the ability to a-move is slightly important.
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On March 15 2012 05:38 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:36 archonOOid wrote:
the problem i have with SC2 is that the e-sports scene has been shoved down people's throats by Blizzard while on the other the e-sports scene in BW was founded by a grassroots movement that slowly built its way in Korea
Secondly the game itself isn't original because it's more like a copy of a original.
thirdly the game-play has been so simplified in stark contrast to the original that it feels watered down.
Fixed.
Oh look, a BW elitist, who'd of thought we'd find one of them in this thread [/sarcasm]
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On March 15 2012 05:44 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
People just have such difficulty understanding that competition is driven by the players, and that any seemingly easy task can be made challenging when you are trying to outplay another human being.
As I previously posted, if being intrinsically "harder" makes for better sports, then soccer would you be your "casual" and free climbing would be your 400APM hardcore games, and that we should all be trashing soccer for being an illegitimate sports because kicking a ball is so damn simple.
Are you kidding? Have you ever played sports before? I don't even like soccer that much but I recognize the skill you need to be good at it. It takes incredible footwork and stamina. There's nothing like that in games so they have to be either about extreme precision or speed and lol has none of that. It only has teamwork which any game with team play has.
I used Soccer Vs Hockey earlier in the thread...
It the same thing really. What is harder running and controlling a ball or skating and controlling a small object with a stick?
Switch out free climbing with Hockey and his arguement is legitimately awesome.
On March 15 2012 05:49 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:47 vOkk wrote:
How come the "#1 esports games" doesn't have a pause system? This. Also attack-moving. In a game where you're killing things I think the ability to a-move is slightly important.
1) Tournament client has pausing.
2) You can Attack move... press A then click anywhere... just like in SC2.
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On March 15 2012 05:47 vOkk wrote:
How come the "#1 esports games" doesn't have a pause system?
It does on the tourney client
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I want them to make a deal with Blizzard and pick up SC2!!!
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On March 15 2012 05:49 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:44 L3gendary wrote:On March 15 2012 05:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
People just have such difficulty understanding that competition is driven by the players, and that any seemingly easy task can be made challenging when you are trying to outplay another human being.
As I previously posted, if being intrinsically "harder" makes for better sports, then soccer would you be your "casual" and free climbing would be your 400APM hardcore games, and that we should all be trashing soccer for being an illegitimate sports because kicking a ball is so damn simple.
Are you kidding? Have you ever played sports before? I don't even like soccer that much but I recognize the skill you need to be good at it. It takes incredible footwork and stamina. There's nothing like that in games so they have to be either about extreme precision or speed and lol has none of that. It only has teamwork which any game with team play has. I used Soccer Vs Hockey earlier in the thread... It the same thing really. What is harder running and controlling a ball or skating and controlling a small object with a stick? Switch out free climbing with Hockey and his arguement is legitimately awesome.
Well hockey you need more coordination/agility, soccer you need more stamina since you're actually running places instead of skidding.
So IDK you can make an argument that either game takes different skill or something
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EPT
