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People just have such difficulty understanding that competition is driven by the players, and that any seemingly easy task can be made challenging when you are trying to outplay another human being.
As I previously posted, if being intrinsically "harder" makes for better sports, then soccer would you be your "casual" and free climbing would be your 400APM hardcore games, and that we should all be trashing soccer for being an illegitimate sports because kicking a ball is so damn simple.
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I think SC fans (of BW and SC2) need to unite. The conflict between the two communities is hurting starcraft as an esport. I think anyone, BW or SC2 can agree that any type of starcraft is better than LoL.
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On March 15 2012 05:17 Bjoernzor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL. Both require hand movements Both require decision making Both require looking at the minimap (mirror) Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas) I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey....
hey man i know someone who plays lol and crashes into guardrails with his sleeping gf in the passenger seat
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On March 15 2012 05:25 Luepert wrote:
I think SC fans (of BW and SC2) need to unite. The conflict between the two communities is hurting starcraft as an esport. I think anyone, BW or SC2 can agree that any type of starcraft is better than LoL.
Not really. And I don't see why a game needs to fail for another to be successful.
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This is Blizzard's fault. Fruitdealer knew what was going on, LoL
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On March 15 2012 05:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:17 Bjoernzor wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL. Both require hand movements Both require decision making Both require looking at the minimap (mirror) Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas) I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey.... Woah, woah, woah. Hold your horses right there. Clearly not every LoL player is good, so not every LoL player is an amazing driver. Stop making huge overarching assertions please. That's not what this thread is about. Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:16 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. One requires far more accurate, frequent, and faster clicking of keys. And last-shotting is a very simple matter of timing. Now, I think most of this debate about "LoL vs. SC2" in terms of difficulty is different, as it is one of skill which is not directly correspondent to mechanics. Skill is some vague, arbtirary notion of innate easiness with which a person grasps a task, and LoL is very different with respect to the skills involved, such as teamwork and timing, whereas SC/SC2 is much more multi-task/speed oriented. For example, WC3 may be much less "mechanically" demanding than SC2, since its focused on a much narrower scope of units, but that doesn't mean that WC3 takes less skill, since many WC3 pros have been successful in SC2. Of course, being TL, it's a pretty general norm that mechanics are valued as a primary element of skill, and in light of this criterion, I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in those haughty BW posts. So what you're saying is skill is an ambiguous measurement and therefore people need to stop bitching about the game being a legitimate e-sport in Korea.
Skill is only one facet of a game, and an entirely different discussion. I would willingly argue that mechanics is more important in representing "gaming skill" than other skills involved in LoL, but that's neither here nor there because this thread is about LoL as an esport, not LoL merely as a test of skill. I've named numerous other concerns with LoL as the frontrunner of esports:
On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: In my view, I think it's problematic that a game like LoL would be the frontrunner of e-sports because it has less appeal to those outside of gaming. Sure, LoL has a larger casual player fanbase, but the credibility of esports in expansion is its ability to reach beyond the player-base into the broader mainstream population. Starcraft is just better as a spectator sport. Many LoL players I know readily acknowledge that it's not really interesting to watch. For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in SC2 is incredibly intuitive, whereas the AOS (or MOBA, but I refer the old WC3 terminology :3) notion of "lanes" of automatically spawning creep, towers, and champions is not so intuitive. Second, Starcraft is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Third, LoL encounters the same issues of CS in its 5v5 formatting, where its difficult to truly observe all the happenings in a game where there are often 10 multiple different instances of players that compose the overall game.
Another issue with LoL as a spectator sport that I didn't include in the post at that time is the matter of professionalism: as mentioned here, LoL has a problem with professionalism. It's this very problem that has caused my brother, an avid LoL player who watches stream, to adopt a negative view of esports with little legitimacy in the real world, as a bunch of loser nerds with zero social skills because of their inability to articulate and present themselves in a professional manner.
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Why are people acting like this is BAD?
Isn't esports getting bigger what we WANT? Isn't LoL getting big literally what we were wanting?
SC2 isn't the only esport. It can't be the only esport. Not everyone finds it to their taste, but might like watching fighting games. Or Moba games.
We want to bring people into esports, not ONLY sc2.
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i blame the feud between blizzard and kespa. killed broodwar.
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On March 15 2012 05:25 Luepert wrote:
I think SC fans (of BW and SC2) need to unite. The conflict between the two communities is hurting starcraft as an esport. I think anyone, BW or SC2 can agree that any type of starcraft is better than LoL.
LoL becomes popular -> LoL is MOBA and Brood War is RTS; not much conflict and actually beneficial since it will improve OGN situation.
SC2 becomes popular -> SC2 'rightfully takes over' Brood War as #1 RTS. What? XD
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LoL will pave the way for Dota 2. Got nothing against Lol, just dont think it is fit for the throne.
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League is free, easy to learn AND master, and runs on ancient computers. The news doesn't surprise me at all. The only issue I have with it is the lack of professionalism from the League scene. Just about all of the 'pros' in league stream horrible BM all day, and the community followed. It's easily the worst community there is, and if League is going to lead the way for e-sports I think it's bad news for the scene as a whole.
I really hope that DOTA2 is free and explodes, but I don't think you'll see it happening because it's hard to learn and master at the same time. The DOTA2 scene is professional and well mannered, though.
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OK. Time to start play LoL.
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Not all LoL streamers are raging frothmouthed kids. There's plenty of really professional and reasonable players there as well. Scarra, Snoopeh, Guardsman Bob or Shushei for example.
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I don't know why people say LoL is easy. If LoL were easy, everyone would have 2000 ELO. There is skill in that game, even if it is different than Starcraft.
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On March 15 2012 05:33 KevinIX wrote:
I don't know why people say LoL is easy. If LoL were easy, everyone would have 2000 ELO. There is skill in that game, even if it is different than Starcraft.
It's just easy and quick to get to a competitive level.
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On March 15 2012 05:33 KevinIX wrote:
I don't know why people say LoL is easy. If LoL were easy, everyone would have 2000 ELO. There is skill in that game, even if it is different than Starcraft.
because it is relatively easy compared to other moba's HoN, Dota, Dota 2 etc.
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On March 15 2012 05:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:17 Bjoernzor wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL. Both require hand movements Both require decision making Both require looking at the minimap (mirror) Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas) I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey.... Woah, woah, woah. Hold your horses right there. Clearly not every LoL player is good, so not every LoL player is an amazing driver. Stop making huge overarching assertions please. That's not what this thread is about. On March 15 2012 05:16 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. One requires far more accurate, frequent, and faster clicking of keys. And last-shotting is a very simple matter of timing. Now, I think most of this debate about "LoL vs. SC2" in terms of difficulty is different, as it is one of skill which is not directly correspondent to mechanics. Skill is some vague, arbtirary notion of innate easiness with which a person grasps a task, and LoL is very different with respect to the skills involved, such as teamwork and timing, whereas SC/SC2 is much more multi-task/speed oriented. For example, WC3 may be much less "mechanically" demanding than SC2, since its focused on a much narrower scope of units, but that doesn't mean that WC3 takes less skill, since many WC3 pros have been successful in SC2. Of course, being TL, it's a pretty general norm that mechanics are valued as a primary element of skill, and in light of this criterion, I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in those haughty BW posts. So what you're saying is skill is an ambiguous measurement and therefore people need to stop bitching about the game being a legitimate e-sport in Korea. Skill is only one facet of a game, and an entirely different discussion. I would willingly argue that mechanics is more important in representing "gaming skill" than other skills involved in LoL, but that's neither here nor there because this thread is about LoL as an esport, not LoL merely as a test of skill. I've named numerous other concerns with LoL as the frontrunner of esports: Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: In my view, I think it's problematic that a game like LoL would be the frontrunner of e-sports because it has less appeal to those outside of gaming. Sure, LoL has a larger casual player fanbase, but the credibility of esports in expansion is its ability to reach beyond the player-base into the broader mainstream population. Starcraft is just better as a spectator sport. Many LoL players I know readily acknowledge that it's not really interesting to watch. For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in SC2 is incredibly intuitive, whereas the AOS (or MOBA, but I refer the old WC3 terminology :3) notion of "lanes" of automatically spawning creep, towers, and champions is not so intuitive. Second, Starcraft is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Third, LoL encounters the same issues of CS in its 5v5 formatting, where its difficult to truly observe all the happenings in a game where there are often 10 multiple different instances of players that compose the overall game. Another issue with LoL as a spectator sport that I didn't include in the post at that time is the matter of professionalism: as mentioned here, LoL has a problem with professionalism. It's this very problem that has caused my brother, an avid LoL player who watches stream, to adopt a negative view of esports with little legitimacy in the real world, as a bunch of loser nerds with zero social skills because of their inability to articulate and present themselves in a professional manner.
Lack of professionalism in an e-sport? Where have I seen that recently...?
Nah, definitely not in SC2. As we all know, streams in SC2 are so civil. There's not a single streamer that acts out of line, nor is there a single competitor that has ever caused an uproar in the community that makes people question the professionalism that goes into such a fine e-sport like SC2.
Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. All LoL streamers give off this terrible vibe that everyone participating in e-sports is an inarticulate geek. All the people who stream all the time, trying to teach their viewers, showcase their play, and have fun, are all bad examples that's keeping e-sports from developing.
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the problem i have with LOL is that the e-sports scene has been created by riot games while on the other the e-sports scene in sc2 was founded by a grassroots movement.
Secondly the game itself isn't original because it's more like a copy of a original.
thirdly the game-play has been so simplified in stark contrast to the original that it feels watered down.
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Hasn't this article been debunked as sensationalist? I mean, there is a decent sized LoL tournament, whoopie, but the conclusions drawn by the author seem entirely made up.
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EPT
