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honestly who gives a shit? I love SC2 and i'll get behind it and support it now matter what. If you enjoy LoL and want to get behind it and support it too, then that's awesome. People need to stop looking over at what's happening with other games and getting upset
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:40 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:36 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 23:28 Capped wrote:
But the only major differences in HoN/Dota is 1) Creep denies. 2) Loss of gold on death. 1 adds another element to skillful play i agree, yet still not good for spectating. 2 just makes it less forgiving and makes it snowball even more quickly with games lasting longer and faster snowballing, games have the potential to be very boring. You need to educate yourself if you believe that these are the only differences between DotA and LoL, or if you believe that LoL is less snowball-y than DotA. As much as I dislike the misguided preconceptions that people have made about LoL in this game, you're doing the same thing. LoL is very snowball like, i know and accept that but i was saying dota is more-so, if your ganked twice early game LoL, they get an advantage yes. In dota, its doubly so. See my point? I didnt say it was the only differences, but its the two major ones. I dont have misguided preconceptions, i just typed up a massive thread in sports and games and my fingers hurt so i dont want to type moar xD. Other differences are quite minor unless im mistaken...? im not starting a flame war with this anyway, but while dota could require more skill, LoL has something that makes it more attractive to the masses. (Perhaps sona's boobs.)
Idk about LoL, but Dota can snowball really heavily just because of one bad decision that may lead to a bad teamfight into losing towers/rax or roshan. one example, but this discussion is to be saved for another day/thread. anw, try not to generalise games so easily, it doesn't really help this discussion
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Having another game that performs well only helps Esports, the people on this forum talk about "For ESPORTS!!!!" well guess what... having more than one game be popular helps Esports more than just pushing SC2 at the expense of everything else.
I really hope they tighten up CS:GO so we can have another solid Esport too. I really enjoyed the 1.6 tournament at IEM last week, as well as SC2. I don't have any interest in MOBA's, but them succeeding is not going to hurt Esports in anyway shape or form. Stop thinking so small minded.
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:42 DeadBull wrote:
How long can MOBAS even be succesfull ?
very long
look how long dota has come
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On March 14 2012 23:40 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:38 Shikyo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:16 Schwopzi wrote:On March 14 2012 23:12 Xcobidoo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:05 BluzMan wrote:
Geez, I'm so unhappy with the way this discussion is going. People try to use strange words like "skill ceiling" (that effectively should mean that you can't get better. Well wtf, there's no such thing) or LoL being "easier" than SC2. Wtf is that, really? It's equally hard to be good at anything provided there's competition. If winning at LoL takes you 6 hours of training per day, it only means that there's noone who practices 10 hours yet.
It's not about being easy or hard. SC2 is not easy compared to SC, SC2 is bad compared to SC. The only thing about those two games is that SC is much more fun to play and watch. And shit like MBS, automine or whatever other 'killer feature' don't mean anything, it's just the badly designed units, badly implemented pathfinding and a bad storyline stripped of 2/3 of the game's races to get more money with "expansions" that never saw the light of day. That in turn limits the influx of new players etc.
LoL's immense playerbase and recent growth proves that it's fun. It's more fun than SC2 to play and recently with the increase of the average skill level among top players it's become rather fun to watch. It's a better game. And please throw away all that bullshit about easiness. V are people wharious activities may have different entry levels (the amount of effort required to feel generally in control), but pushing anything to it's limit is equally hard. Just because pushing something to the limit means working as hard as possible. Progamerso push games to their limits, that easy. And, if anything, a low entry level is a good thing for the game, not bad, because it attracts audiences. Bitching about that is nothing but arrogance. When it comes to player base, you can't compare a f2p-game with one that costs like 40-50 euro. Ofc there's not a "skill ceiling" if you dumb it down, you can always micro just a bit better or macro just a tiny bit better. The skill ceiling more refers to the fact that if player X practices for 2 hours/day and player Y practices for 8 hours/day and they are still comparable in skill (provided they have the same potential regarding RTS-games) then yes, there is a pretty low skill ceiling. Consider Quake where a 75-80% hit rate with railgun is considered amazing, the fact that there is still 20-25% to improve on there means that the skill ceiling is high. So it took me less time to reach the top 2% in starcraft then it did for me to reach the top 10% in LoL. Does this mean LoL has a higher skillceiling? This is actually funny btw, I used to be in top 1.5% of SC2 and I've never been in like top 10% of LoL despite playing like 4 times more games of LoL. Are you sure you used to be 1.5% of SC2?
Took me 30sec to check hes profile and he is not lying.
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On March 14 2012 23:40 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:38 Shikyo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:16 Schwopzi wrote:On March 14 2012 23:12 Xcobidoo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:05 BluzMan wrote:
Geez, I'm so unhappy with the way this discussion is going. People try to use strange words like "skill ceiling" (that effectively should mean that you can't get better. Well wtf, there's no such thing) or LoL being "easier" than SC2. Wtf is that, really? It's equally hard to be good at anything provided there's competition. If winning at LoL takes you 6 hours of training per day, it only means that there's noone who practices 10 hours yet.
It's not about being easy or hard. SC2 is not easy compared to SC, SC2 is bad compared to SC. The only thing about those two games is that SC is much more fun to play and watch. And shit like MBS, automine or whatever other 'killer feature' don't mean anything, it's just the badly designed units, badly implemented pathfinding and a bad storyline stripped of 2/3 of the game's races to get more money with "expansions" that never saw the light of day. That in turn limits the influx of new players etc.
LoL's immense playerbase and recent growth proves that it's fun. It's more fun than SC2 to play and recently with the increase of the average skill level among top players it's become rather fun to watch. It's a better game. And please throw away all that bullshit about easiness. V are people wharious activities may have different entry levels (the amount of effort required to feel generally in control), but pushing anything to it's limit is equally hard. Just because pushing something to the limit means working as hard as possible. Progamerso push games to their limits, that easy. And, if anything, a low entry level is a good thing for the game, not bad, because it attracts audiences. Bitching about that is nothing but arrogance. When it comes to player base, you can't compare a f2p-game with one that costs like 40-50 euro. Ofc there's not a "skill ceiling" if you dumb it down, you can always micro just a bit better or macro just a tiny bit better. The skill ceiling more refers to the fact that if player X practices for 2 hours/day and player Y practices for 8 hours/day and they are still comparable in skill (provided they have the same potential regarding RTS-games) then yes, there is a pretty low skill ceiling. Consider Quake where a 75-80% hit rate with railgun is considered amazing, the fact that there is still 20-25% to improve on there means that the skill ceiling is high. So it took me less time to reach the top 2% in starcraft then it did for me to reach the top 10% in LoL. Does this mean LoL has a higher skillceiling? This is actually funny btw, I used to be in top 1.5% of SC2 and I've never been in like top 10% of LoL despite playing like 4 times more games of LoL. Are you sure you used to be 1.5% of SC2?
@The two people in nestled quotes, no it doesn't mean that. It just means you're relatively better compared to the general population of SC2 at SC2 moreso than of LoL at LoL.
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SoCal, USA3955 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:36 scDeluX wrote:
Riot throwing all that money in esports seems to pay off
They can't be throwing money forever for being a free to play game. The more tournaments pop up for LoL the more they have to pay it up for them (and even more so when prize pools get bigger and bigger). We all know now stream ads cannot support a tournament no matter how ridiculous the viewer numbers are for them.
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The prize money is spread out to everyone on one team right? Still, 1,8 million, Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
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Hm i tried to watch LoL on streams a few times but i simply dont get it.
Where is the fun in watching someone using 1-4 abilities and running around in small circles all game long ?
I can understand that it has some fun playing but i dont understand how anyone has fun watching this ?
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On March 14 2012 23:40 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:38 Shikyo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:16 Schwopzi wrote:On March 14 2012 23:12 Xcobidoo wrote:On March 14 2012 23:05 BluzMan wrote:
Geez, I'm so unhappy with the way this discussion is going. People try to use strange words like "skill ceiling" (that effectively should mean that you can't get better. Well wtf, there's no such thing) or LoL being "easier" than SC2. Wtf is that, really? It's equally hard to be good at anything provided there's competition. If winning at LoL takes you 6 hours of training per day, it only means that there's noone who practices 10 hours yet.
It's not about being easy or hard. SC2 is not easy compared to SC, SC2 is bad compared to SC. The only thing about those two games is that SC is much more fun to play and watch. And shit like MBS, automine or whatever other 'killer feature' don't mean anything, it's just the badly designed units, badly implemented pathfinding and a bad storyline stripped of 2/3 of the game's races to get more money with "expansions" that never saw the light of day. That in turn limits the influx of new players etc.
LoL's immense playerbase and recent growth proves that it's fun. It's more fun than SC2 to play and recently with the increase of the average skill level among top players it's become rather fun to watch. It's a better game. And please throw away all that bullshit about easiness. V are people wharious activities may have different entry levels (the amount of effort required to feel generally in control), but pushing anything to it's limit is equally hard. Just because pushing something to the limit means working as hard as possible. Progamerso push games to their limits, that easy. And, if anything, a low entry level is a good thing for the game, not bad, because it attracts audiences. Bitching about that is nothing but arrogance. When it comes to player base, you can't compare a f2p-game with one that costs like 40-50 euro. Ofc there's not a "skill ceiling" if you dumb it down, you can always micro just a bit better or macro just a tiny bit better. The skill ceiling more refers to the fact that if player X practices for 2 hours/day and player Y practices for 8 hours/day and they are still comparable in skill (provided they have the same potential regarding RTS-games) then yes, there is a pretty low skill ceiling. Consider Quake where a 75-80% hit rate with railgun is considered amazing, the fact that there is still 20-25% to improve on there means that the skill ceiling is high. So it took me less time to reach the top 2% in starcraft then it did for me to reach the top 10% in LoL. Does this mean LoL has a higher skillceiling? This is actually funny btw, I used to be in top 1.5% of SC2 and I've never been in like top 10% of LoL despite playing like 4 times more games of LoL. Are you sure you used to be 1.5% of SC2?
Yeah, mid-high masters and masters was 2%, probably even top 1%
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On March 14 2012 23:39 tbrown47 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:33 daemir wrote:On March 14 2012 23:26 tbrown47 wrote:
Lack of Deny is intuitive? Huh?
Take anyone who has never ever played or heard of Dota or moba games. Put them in a lane. See if they try to kill _their own forces_ before the enemy does. How can denying possibly be intuitive for anyone who wasn't fed that idea from Dota is beyond me. You can say that about anything though... And it actually makes sense. If you get gold from killing creeps, then steal the kills from your enemies. Seems intuitive to me. But I agree it is a little weird from the outside looking in. However that isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is why take it out of the game in the first place. That is what I don't get, that is what isn't intuitive it takes away something without adding anything.
And from playing 3 different LoL accounts from lvl 1 onwards I can safely say this is not intuitive for new people. What is intuitive for new people is to attack the enemy minions and kill them as fast as possible so you can go kill the enemy tower and then the next tower. You get the basic idea from just the map layout.
We know it's quite bad, you should just last hit and farm, but that's not INTUITIVE for new players. Deny is even less so, it makes so little sense when you look it outside of Dota bias that it's hilarious.
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On March 14 2012 23:38 Norris_is_GODLY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 20:29 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
The fact that LoL is easy isnt a reason for it to not be #1.
I mean its not like soccer is hard and its the #1 sport in the world were you dropped on your head as a baby?
ROFL I missed that gem...has to be quoted again for the sheer stupidity. Personally I find LoL and all other games like it to be boring as hell from a spectator pov. I've never made it trough a whole match. Unfortunately Riot seems to be the only company throwing mass amounts of money at e-sports. Good for them I suppose...not really interested in a future of watching MOBA games personally, but to each his own.
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Didn't Dota2 have 1.6 million tournament too? So it's comparable.
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On March 14 2012 23:46 Berg_zerg wrote:
Hm i tried to watch LoL on streams a few times but i simply dont get it.
Where is the fun in watching someone using 1-4 abilities and running around in small circles all game long ?
I can understand that it has some fun playing but i dont understand how anyone has fun watching this ?
This. I have tried to appreciate pro LoL (pro MOBA in general) but I simply can't get into it. I understand what the point of the game is but I don't understand anything thats actually going on and I feel like you have to play the game in order to do that. I guess you could say the same about Starcraft but I think LoL is more difficult to understand.
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Player stats from my school class:
2 SC2 players
6 LOL players
I am playing both games and we are all about 18-20 years old.
I was asking them why they prefer LOL over SC2:
-Most of them didn´t know SC2.
-Those who knew SC2 said: "SC2 is to exhausting and to boring (to watch) at the initial stage".
In my class LOL is already taking first place. I need your help guys T.T
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On March 14 2012 23:47 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:39 tbrown47 wrote:On March 14 2012 23:33 daemir wrote:On March 14 2012 23:26 tbrown47 wrote:
Lack of Deny is intuitive? Huh?
Take anyone who has never ever played or heard of Dota or moba games. Put them in a lane. See if they try to kill _their own forces_ before the enemy does. How can denying possibly be intuitive for anyone who wasn't fed that idea from Dota is beyond me. You can say that about anything though... And it actually makes sense. If you get gold from killing creeps, then steal the kills from your enemies. Seems intuitive to me. But I agree it is a little weird from the outside looking in. However that isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is why take it out of the game in the first place. That is what I don't get, that is what isn't intuitive it takes away something without adding anything. And from playing 3 different LoL accounts from lvl 1 onwards I can safely say this is not intuitive for new people. What is intuitive for new people is to attack the enemy minions and kill them as fast as possible so you can go kill the enemy tower and then the next tower. You get the basic idea from just the map layout. We know it's quite bad, you should just last hit and farm, but that's not INTUITIVE for new players. Deny is even less so, it makes so little sense when you look it outside of Dota bias that it's hilarious.
So I guess you read the first part of my post and not the second?
edit:
But I mean you can say that about any high level play. In Starcraft I should just go build Zerglings and then attack my opponent as quickly as possible? That is intuitive according to your statement about killing the enemy tower and the next tower as fast as possible. But in reality you don't do that. You build drones to support your economy first usually. Does that making droning unintuitive? I wouldn't say so. It makes it more intuitive.
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On March 14 2012 23:50 Big-t wrote:
Player stats from my school class:
2 SC2 players
6 LOL players
I am playing both games and we are all about 18-20 years old.
I was asking them why they prefer LOL over SC2:
-Most of them didn´t know SC2.
-Those who knew SC2 said: "SC2 is to exhausting and to boring (to watch) at the initial stage".
In my class LOL is already taking first place. I need your help guys T.T
Simpler things will always have a popularity edge over complex things, it's just how it works.
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SC2 is just too difficult - nice to watch pros but do not forget the fact 95% of the active SC2 players are low diamond and lower (down to to those not laddering at all)
which means 95% of the actives are lightyears away(skillwise) from what they are watching.
Its not that rewarding to support an e-sport you do not feel to be part of
and neither the rediculous devision system nor hidden win/loss ratio have changed that
SC2 so far is the failed attempt to bridge between a hardcore rts and modern casualgamer-cash cow
But not all hope is hots ...lost I mean
Instead of blaming Blizzard I guess it should be the community itself making the needed steps
(recent changes of maps are an indicator for an succesful cooperation imo)
Who knows best what is needed to make SC2 the top e-sport? - We do!
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Just laughing at all the haters. LoL isn't any easier than SC2... just go play it and find out.
It's also significantly better from a viewership perspective. It is much more exciting to have a favorite team than a favorite player, and viewership is huge because you have 10 players per match instead of 2.
I still love SC2, don't get me wrong, but LoL is the future of eSports- team games will always be great.
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EPT
