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konadora
Singapore66071 Posts
to anyone who keeps saying SC2 should be the #1 esports blah blah
On March 14 2012 22:42 konadora wrote:
there is A LOT of people playing/picking up LoL in korea now, SC2 is dead (nothing will "revive" it anymore, not even further expansions or PR, it IS dead in korea, face it), BW is still a favourite among casuals but definitely losing (maybe even already lost) #1 spot as the casual game in korea (not necessarily to LoL, but to other games, probably MMORPGs/FPSs)
OGN is doing a LOT to promote LoL (probably paid by Riot Games but that's my suspicion), even pushing OSL down the schedule and moving the two big-name casters to promoting LoL. But let me tell you that it's shit to watch on TV because OGN isn't casting in HD, so even on my relative's HD tv, I feel like i'm watching in 240p and can't tell shit apart (which kinda turns me off). this is from first-hand experience watching the first LoL broadcast on LoL. If they fix some things like that though, LoL will definitely take off a lot bigger in korea at a very very scary pace that will put Blizzard to shame.
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On March 14 2012 22:55 tyCe wrote:
Oh yeah, cos elitism in esports is just so cool. For example: we need artificial mechanical barriers to make an esport competitive - that's why hitting a tiny ball with a stick (of multiple materials!) into a hole a couple hundred metres away is a far more competitive activity than kicking the ball in football, picking up the ball in rugby or, God forbid, wear helmets and shoulderpads in handegghelmetshoulderpadsportjk.
There is a myriad of reasons why LoL is more popular than SC2 (and SC:BW; long live that great game) and the fact that it is free barely counts.
1. it's a team activity; you can play with friends, family, your little sister - just like football, basketball, handegg, cricket (pretty much the top 4 most popular sports in the world); furthermore, you can't dominate by yourself like in DotA once you get fed like crazy, mostly because it's a team game and needs coordination and coaching (in the future pro level) just like football - Messi can't carry every match unless he gets fed the ball enough
2. easy to learn, hard to master; LoL is definitely hard to master because there are so many possible paths of improvement including champion matchups, picks&bans, teamfighting, laning, jungle control, map awareness, timing of power curves x 10, itemisation, summoner skill choice and usage, warding and counter-warding, pyschological factors x 10 etc. - that alone is a lot more depth than SC2 and even SC:BW (sorry my beloved)
3. always fresh, always new; Riot updates the game every couple weeks or so and adds in a new champion, which ensures that the metagame is always shifting and that players have to adjust; furthermore, every week the free champion roster is shuffled so that everyone gets a decent opportunity to try a new champion
4. developer support; Riot supports its esports community very well with decent media coverage of even relatively minor tournaments, and it has so far been committed to improving the viewing and playing experience with regular tweaks of items, champions, even summoner spells and the jungle
5. intuitive mechanics; things like AP/spell damage scaling, brush/vision, objectives/buffs, "free" recalling, lack of deny mechanic are all things that are very intuitive to put into MOBA game that focuses on "fun" rather than "l33t" after a few years experience of DotA; these are the issues that fix the game for new players and cause DotA diehards to complain of "lack of depth" due to lack of buggy vision mechanics, and the possibility of efficient recalling and spell-based champions actually being useful lategame
The fact that LoL is freemium means that many people have the accessibility to try it, but it is the other reasons that makes LoL successful.
PS: LoL only becomes easy or stale if you have a single player mindset; LoL is a team game and it has not even come close to being solved. Wait for the Chinese (I am actually in China right now and LoL is crazy popular here and rapidly getting more so) and Korean scene to show us how it's done.
this has to be a joke...
On March 14 2012 22:55 tyCe wrote:
1. it's a team activity; you can play with friends, family, your little sister - just like football, basketball, handegg, cricket (pretty much the top 4 most popular sports in the world); furthermore, you can't dominate by yourself like in DotA once you get fed like crazy, mostly because it's a team game and needs coordination and coaching (in the future pro level) just like football - Messi can't carry every match unless he gets fed the ball enough
Can't dominate by yourself like in DotA? What?
First of all the whole point is to not let the carry get fed anyway, to avoid the situation in the first place. Past that there is a reason why many tournies limit the amount of CC items allowed to be picked up in a game. Because good team play can counter a superfed carry. (Assuming your team has somewhere near the same farm as the other team).
On March 14 2012 22:55 tyCe wrote:
2. easy to learn, hard to master; LoL is definitely hard to master because there are so many possible paths of improvement including champion matchups, picks&bans, teamfighting, laning, jungle control, map awareness, timing of power curves x 10, itemisation, summoner skill choice and usage, warding and counter-warding, pyschological factors x 10 etc. - that alone is a lot more depth than SC2 and even SC:BW (sorry my beloved)
Easy to learn, hard to Master... you mean like every other game I can think of? I agree, there is definitely depth to DotA games, as a HoN player myself. Hero picks/bans, teamfights, laning, jungle control etc. are all valid things to point out. However saying a bunch of things that need to be taken into account does not make the game more deep than SC2/SC:BW. Not at all; and really... psychological factors x10? Have you ever seen a good Bo5/7 in SC:BW/SC2? Plenty of mind games go on.
On March 14 2012 22:55 tyCe wrote:
3. always fresh, always new; Riot updates the game every couple weeks or so and adds in a new champion, which ensures that the metagame is always shifting and that players have to adjust; furthermore, every week the free champion roster is shuffled so that everyone gets a decent opportunity to try a new champion
This I agree is actually a valid point, but it isn't unique to just LoL. However this is a good and a bad thing. It definitely changes the meta game when a powerful new support/carry comes out... but it can also be a bad thing. In DotA games I think it is overall a good thing. It forces teams to try new hero comps etc. However I think the implementation of such a system into a game like SC:BW/SC2 would be a bad thing. Because it limits players from finding out answers to problems by themselves.
On March 14 2012 22:55 tyCe wrote:
4. developer support; Riot supports its esports community very well with decent media coverage of even relatively minor tournaments, and it has so far been committed to improving the viewing and playing experience with regular tweaks of items, champions, even summoner spells and the jungle
Agreed. They have decent media coverage on just about all tournaments. I however disagree with the outcome of all their tweaks. I played LoL for like 2 days back in beta... and the game was horribly balanced. I never read posts from good people who say 'Yea the LoL devs know what they are doing and these changes are good.', most of them are talking about how bad they are at balancing their game.
On March 14 2012 22:55 tyCe wrote:
5. intuitive mechanics; things like AP/spell damage scaling, brush/vision, objectives/buffs, "free" recalling, lack of deny mechanic are all things that are very intuitive to put into MOBA game that focuses on "fun" rather than "l33t" after a few years experience of DotA; these are the issues that fix the game for new players and cause DotA diehards to complain of "lack of depth" due to lack of buggy vision mechanics, and the possibility of efficient recalling and spell-based champions actually being useful lategame
These are all opinions. I hate AP/spell damage scaling. That is one of my favorite things about DotA/HoN. The whole point is that heroes have high and low points. Imagine if Tiny/Pebbles scaled throughout the entire game? Heroes are supposed to hit a high and then you act on that high to ensure a victory, if you don't you miss your chance and lose. Some heroes are weak at certain times and then strong at other times. It is a very interesting unique mechanic and I like what it does. It forces heroes into ROLES. Now some people might say that forcing a hero into something is a bad thing... well I simply don't see it that way. It is sort of like a jack of All trades vs. Master of One type deal. I'd rather have 1 well-designed support only hero than 1 shitty-designed jack of all trades hero.
Brush/vision I'm assuming you are talking about the stuff that hides you in the lanes? That stuff is only viable because everyone gets a free blink dagger in LoL. In DotA that would never be viable + that is just an opinion. I hate the stuff.
Objectives/Buffs? What? Like... runes in DotA/HoN?
Lack of Deny is intuitive? Huh?
On March 14 2012 22:55 tyCe wrote:
The fact that LoL is freemium means that many people have the accessibility to try it, but it is the other reasons that makes LoL successful.
PS: LoL only becomes easy or stale if you have a single player mindset; LoL is a team game and it has not even come close to being solved. Wait for the Chinese (I am actually in China right now and LoL is crazy popular here and rapidly getting more so) and Korean scene to show us how it's done.
There are many team games that are way more suited to being a competitive game than LoL... all in all I agree LoL can be a competitive game. And even though it is mega-casual and easier than other DotA games, it still takes some skill to play I agree.
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I don't care about skills.
I care about having minutes and minutes of nothing happening with character selection and build-ups, grinding or however it's called, and, when something ends up happening... it's boring as hell.
Even the Up and Downs are more fun than your average lol match.
Besides snowballing, imbalance, etc.
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The article is from Kotaku -_-; You have to take it with a grain of salt. It's clear that LOL is taking over as the top e-sport but the way the article goes about it makes it seem that korea was brainwashed by starcraft, and that LOL is a slap of reality. The article is designed to cause trouble and bring hits, nothing more.
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e-sports is growing, let's all rage since starcraft ain't on top.
Personally I'm very happy with the development and since LoL has an easier curve for the more casual players, they might get attracted to games like sc2 e-sports.
All in all, awesome.
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what is this shit???? LoL. are you fking kidding me....
whats next, Mario cart?
I always considered LoL to be like womans football of the E-sport scene
get off my lawn.. fucking kids
User was warned for this post
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On March 14 2012 23:20 PeZuY wrote:
The both games are both so different. One is team based and one is solo. One is RTS and other are... dota-like game(???).
In any case I find playing LoL way too casual, I don't find the pro-factor in this game even satisfying or watching it is so boring. Everygame seems to be the same. Early game, no way you can rush like in SC2 and win the game in few minutes, is just people bashing and harrassing eachother in lines and with better combination you will win your line. One has to be in jungle, one in the middle, one for ex. top lane and 2 in down lane.
It makes me very sad to hear this kind of shit taking over the esport scene.
What's positive in LoL? Bushes I guess.. makes somewhat tactical possibilities possible, but where are the creep denying like in HoN/LoL? It makes people's game even harder if you know what you are doing.
Your wrong btw, M5 completely dominated the recent LoL tournament with weird wacky shit, shaking the meta to its core.
Solobot w/ doubletop. (trololol, sounds stranger then it is.)
Double roaming jungle.
Champion picks also change it up alot.
I would agree its a poor spectator sport. but the skillcap for teams is high and nowhere near met yet. Its just not the same skillcap of starcraft or RTS in general. Its a different genre.
HoN/Dota2 takes more skill and is less forgiving? I wont say much on that, all i will say is i was hyped for the dota2 beta, and when i got access, i didnt enjoy it and i still play LoL, what is probably the same for much of its playerbase, what gives it that factor? Probably the fact its more "forgiving" in a way.
But the only major differences in HoN/Dota is 1) Creep denies. 2) Loss of gold on death. 1 adds another element to skillful play i agree, yet still not good for spectating. 2 just makes it less forgiving and makes it snowball even more quickly with games lasting longer and faster snowballing, games have the potential to be very boring.
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In my opinion LoL is being pushed by Riot as an e-sport in really unnatural/artificial way. They are pumping insane amount of money into tournament prices and ofcourse leagues and gamers are attracted. But that is happening not because the game is the greatest thing on earth - It's because people really like money. Now I can not know how is Riot doing financially, but I'm not sure that they can keep up that tempo for too long. Now they are earning from releasing new champions, but they can't do that forever - 100-120(maybe) champions are fine, but above that is too much.
Also LoL is popular because it's free... And what I know about free games is that they become popular really fast, but die out even faster.
Here comes the question that concerns me the most : When Riot's money dry out will this game be as popular as it is now ?
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On March 14 2012 23:16 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:08 Anachromy wrote:
Football Didn't Kill Baseball.
Basketball Didn't Kill Hockey.
LoL Won't kill SC2/BW
For E-Sports to truly Cultivate itself, it needs added exposure. additional games that people can rally behind is a good thing.
Why can't some people understand this?
Lol I am fairly certain that hockey ratings recently have started to overshadow basketball in the American market, so quite the opposite actually. BW has been dwindling guys (Team 8 lol), it is time to accept the new wave
I don't have numbers but I find that very hard to believe. Hockey is not at all a popular sport in warm weather environments and doesn't have the cable television reach NBA does. NBA is also coming off one of its most successful seasons ever and there has been a lot of interest this year because of the lockout.
I wouldn't even put Hockey above college BBall and in long-term growth I see soccer (football) outgrowing hockey across most of the US.
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On March 14 2012 23:14 Klipsys wrote:
Sigh, so many hipster nerds mad because sc2 isn't the second coming of esports....LoL is a great game, it's insanely popular, and it's the only game right now that has a chance of having worldwide success far past any other game ever made competitively . It’s vomit inducing how many fake esports fans we have here on TL. It seems most are only sc or sc2 esports fans, all other games be dammed.
Hipster? I don't think you are using the right word.
And why wouldn't they be mad? Since the announcement of "Starcraft 2 Wings of Liberty" fans of Boxer, iloveoov, Flash, Jaedong etc. have been waiting in anticipation for the next big ESPORT. Everyone here on Teamliquid who hanged out here before SC2 probably all wanted starcraft to continue as one of the biggest esports. They wanted further success in Korea but also in the whole wide world. Starcraft 2 was going to become the best thing that had ever happened to the Electronic Sports industry and they were all going to see how it happen in front of their eyes.
But what did they get? Sure, a great RTS game but something just didn't feel right after the release. People thought that it would change, the game was still new and would develop over time with the help from Blizzard. The help that they wanted never came though...
Charging 50% of all revenue for tournaments with a prize pool over 5k, total collapse on Battle.net 2.0, nerfing every single thing that became a little useful, leaving almost everything about promotion after release to the community just like with SC: BW. It disappointed people a lot.
Good thing Starcraft has the best dedicated community in the world. Sites like Teamliquid has lead many of us to great happiness and entertainment. Tournaments like MLG, Dreamhack, GSL (sponsored by Blizzard though, good job there!  ) has made it possible but also the smaller tournaments like Playhem Daily, CraftCup and Go4SC2 have contributed a lot to the SC2 scene.
I have not lost hope in Blizzard yet, quite the opposite actually. Firing and hiring new Battle.net designers, listening more to the community and engaging more with the change has made me somewhat believing.
But it will not change the fact that League of Legends is the #1 Esport right now.
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Kotaku fails, it says 200,000 dollars in the original article
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I am surprised at this. No disrespect to LoL or it's pros, I enjoy the game and play it a little myself, I just think it's neither as difficult nor as entertaining to watch. It's far less complex, which I guess may be a plus as it's easy to understand.
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On March 14 2012 23:23 stickyhands wrote:
its funny how riot is pushing his game so hard, they try to get as much market share as possible to make the moba scene stuck into LoL before dota 2 is released. I think they are afraid.
except it's working in places like korea, that have never had a huge dota fanbase.
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Most people commenting here are so funny to me. Saying league of legends is this super easy game and what not, if it's so easy why not go and make a bunch of money by going pro?
I agree that LoL shouldn't be the #1, but seriously don't go around saying the game is "easy" none of you are playing it at a pro level. LoL's difficulty is so much different than starcraft the two games can't even be compared.
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On March 14 2012 23:28 MulletMurdoc wrote:what is this shit???? LoL. are you fking kidding me.... whats next, Mario cart? I always considered LoL to be like womans football of the E-sport scene get off my lawn.. fucking kids
I think I'd have preferred Mario Kart, that could be really exciting actually.
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Another garbage opinion piece by Kotaku, per usual.
I remember when DJWheat took a dump on their chest, in that sensationalist article they wrote last year. They never learn...
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On March 14 2012 23:26 tbrown47 wrote:
Lack of Deny is intuitive? Huh?
Take anyone who has never ever played or heard of Dota or moba games. Put them in a lane. See if they try to kill _their own forces_ before the enemy does.
How can denying possibly be intuitive for anyone who wasn't fed that idea from Dota is beyond me.
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The author of the article is a scrub who never beat the campaign. How dare he defy his blood.
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On March 14 2012 23:29 .Sic. wrote:
Kotaku fails, it says 200,000 dollars in the original article
Is this true? -_-"
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On March 14 2012 23:28 Pr0wler wrote:
In my opinion LoL is being pushed by Riot as an e-sport in really unnatural/artificial way. They are pumping insane amount of money into tournament prices and ofcourse leagues and gamers are attracted. But that is happening not because the game is the greatest thing on earth - It's because people really like money. Now I can not know how is Riot doing financially, but I'm not sure that they can keep up that tempo for too long. Now they are earning from releasing new champions, but they can't do that forever - 100-120(maybe) champions are fine, but above that is too much.
Also LoL is popular because it's free... And what I know about free games is that they become popular really fast, but die out even faster.
Here comes the question that concerns me the most : When Riot's money dry out will this game be as popular as it is now ?
I can say the same thing about SC2. The only difference is that a company is pushing its own game to get popular while SC2 is pushed by the players in general with Gom tickets and PPV getting in the picture lately because Blizzard is not giving money but taking from everyone.
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EPT
