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ok, its controversial that if LoL is a better game than SC2, because they are two different type of games (RTS and MOBA). like other ppl have been said, maybe red apple is more sweet than green apple, but u cant compare apple with orange.
like WoW had more users than Broodwar had, but broodwar fans are never mad because WoW is more popular
on other hand, everyone can agree that Riot have done better job at promoting their game and eSport than Blizzard, im not trying to write a wall of text, just giving few example.
1. Talent:
Riot: even though Riot is much much smaller company than Blizzard, they have the most talented employee in their company focusing on ONE game.
Blizzard: Blizzard had the most talented employee in the game industry, but during past few years, a lot of them decided to leave Blizzard (You can guess why), most of them went to Valve, Microsoft and Riot. Especially in Korea, I heard that
in Korea, riot they hired most of his employee from Blizzard.
2. PR:
Riot: Excellent PR, have been giving positive/professional images, ppl love them, at same time they are user friendly, joking/trolling with community in their forums. Promoting their games in the schools, PAX, MLG etcs. They also used social media as advantage: Youtube, Facebook, Twitter.
Blizzard: Shitty PR. Screwed up with KeSPA, even KeSPA-haters decided to stand by their side.
Not user-friendly at all, yes, you made a good game, but can you stop acting like you are GOD to gamers.
When ppl asking you to add Chatroom, you wont just say: they dont need it.
When ppl asking for Cross-Region Play, you wont just say: they dont need it.
When ppl asking for LAN for the tournament, you wont just say: they wont need it.
ect...
3. Tournament:
Riot: $1 million prize pool for Season 1, $5 million prize pool for Season 2.
Blizzard: Not giving but ask money for play their games. Could have but havent done a shit for broodwar.
Again, I never compared two games, I'm comparing two game company, the way how they approach fans and esports.
just my 2 cent.
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LoL has denying of it's own in the sense of zoning, it's not just running up and last hitting your own mobs it's forcing the other player to engage in a fight if he dares to try and last hit, freezing the lanes on your side of the map so that he has a greater risk of falling to a jungle gank if he should push forward to get at the creeps, or slamming waves of creeps into his tower while using harassment to keep him off creeps while the tower kills the creeps keeping him from getting gold.
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On March 14 2012 23:16 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:08 Anachromy wrote:
Football Didn't Kill Baseball.
Basketball Didn't Kill Hockey.
LoL Won't kill SC2/BW
For E-Sports to truly Cultivate itself, it needs added exposure. additional games that people can rally behind is a good thing.
Why can't some people understand this?
Lol I am fairly certain that hockey ratings recently have started to overshadow basketball in the American market, so quite the opposite actually. BW has been dwindling guys (Team 8 lol), it is time to accept the new wave ? /rant Edit: eSports can never succeed unless we stop being elitists and all get on the same page. BW is harder than WoL, WoL is harder than LoL. This allows a wider audience, not everyone has been gaming since they were 3. Sports like bball and soccer have a gentle learning curve and are immensely difficult to master, maybe games will end up that way too. However, we will never know if we, one of the largest supporters of eSports on the internet, bash our own thing. Stop looking from a SC point of view and start looking from a general eSports POV /rant
lolol
why do we all have to look from a general eSports POV?
its like saying u like tennis so u should look from a point of racket sports
sure ppl are entitled to like racket sports/e-sports in general but u can like a praticular sport in general
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Very disappointing for me, but no surprise given LoL's numbers and growth, It's simply just bigger than every other e-sports community.
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On March 14 2012 23:53 Crownlol wrote:
Just laughing at all the haters. LoL isn't any easier than SC2... just go play it and find out.
I've played several hundreds of games of both and I can safely say that LoL is far easier than SC2.
Couldn't disagree with the rest of your post either regarding spectating, in fact it's the one of the three dota games I play that I actually can't spectate because it's so boring to watch.
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While not getting involved in the SC2 vs LoL debate (I watch both) I think this is simply because LoL gets great support from Riot while blizzard has done Bnet 2.0 to SC2.
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LoL is free, nuff said.
SC2 costs the same as CoD and is much more intense from the start. You already have low league laddering fear, many fundamental pillars you have to learn for yourself because teamliquid isn't always the first website you find on SC2, and the upper tiered games look so drastically different to what you play yourself.
LoL is easy to play well, especially if you get the fundamentals of ONLY LAST HIT rather than push your lane, WARD and USE THE MINIMAP to spot incoming ganks, and use your skills wisely and adapt your item build. If I am facing a shen, garen, and Cho stacking HP on my GP built for critting, I'll delay my PD for madreds razor to give a 4% life as magic damage kick in the teeth whenever I get an attack off on them. Once I get my PD and razor--I'll kill cho as soon as I close the gap between him and me. Most people don't do that.
LoL players are much more casual, as many say, because they are less invested in getting better at the game than SC2 and therefore it is more relaxing.
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On March 14 2012 23:51 tbrown47 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:47 daemir wrote:On March 14 2012 23:39 tbrown47 wrote:On March 14 2012 23:33 daemir wrote:On March 14 2012 23:26 tbrown47 wrote:
Lack of Deny is intuitive? Huh?
Take anyone who has never ever played or heard of Dota or moba games. Put them in a lane. See if they try to kill _their own forces_ before the enemy does. How can denying possibly be intuitive for anyone who wasn't fed that idea from Dota is beyond me. You can say that about anything though... And it actually makes sense. If you get gold from killing creeps, then steal the kills from your enemies. Seems intuitive to me. But I agree it is a little weird from the outside looking in. However that isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is why take it out of the game in the first place. That is what I don't get, that is what isn't intuitive it takes away something without adding anything. And from playing 3 different LoL accounts from lvl 1 onwards I can safely say this is not intuitive for new people. What is intuitive for new people is to attack the enemy minions and kill them as fast as possible so you can go kill the enemy tower and then the next tower. You get the basic idea from just the map layout. We know it's quite bad, you should just last hit and farm, but that's not INTUITIVE for new players. Deny is even less so, it makes so little sense when you look it outside of Dota bias that it's hilarious. So I guess you read the first part of my post and not the second? edit: But I mean you can say that about any high level play. In Starcraft I should just go build Zerglings and then attack my opponent as quickly as possible? That is intuitive according to your statement about killing the enemy tower and the next tower as fast as possible. But in reality you don't do that. You build drones to support your economy first usually. Does that making droning unintuitive? I wouldn't say so. It makes it more intuitive.
Why does Day9 keep repeating "probes and pylons" when he teaches new people how to play SC2? Because building drones for the first 3 minutes for completely new players is not intuitive. Making the first 6 mine and then build a structure that gives you units is intuitive.
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On March 14 2012 23:54 NotSorry wrote:
LoL has denying of it's own in the sense of zoning, it's not just running up and last hitting your own mobs it's forcing the other player to engage in a fight if he dares to try and last hit, freezing the lanes on your side of the map so that he has a greater risk of falling to a jungle gank if he should push forward to get at the creeps, or slamming waves of creeps into his tower while using harassment to keep him off creeps while the tower kills the creeps keeping him from getting gold.
All the dota games have zoning and lane freezing (in fact, DotA/HoN even more than LoL due to creep pulling). What you're describing isn't unique to LoL at all.
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On March 14 2012 23:39 tbrown47 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:33 daemir wrote:On March 14 2012 23:26 tbrown47 wrote:
Lack of Deny is intuitive? Huh?
Take anyone who has never ever played or heard of Dota or moba games. Put them in a lane. See if they try to kill _their own forces_ before the enemy does. How can denying possibly be intuitive for anyone who wasn't fed that idea from Dota is beyond me. You can say that about anything though... And it actually makes sense. If you get gold from killing creeps, then steal the kills from your enemies. Seems intuitive to me. But I agree it is a little weird from the outside looking in. However that isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is why take it out of the game in the first place. That is what I don't get, that is what isn't intuitive it takes away something without adding anything.
LoL is not meant to be a DotA clone. Riot didn't say "man we have to take denying out of the game". They thought: "Should we ADD deny into the game? What does it offer?" Riot decided that the deny mechanic doesn't actually add anything meaningful to the game (just another mechanic), so they didn't add it in. Lasthitting alone already creates the necessary tension in lane.
It was the right decision for LoL. Most likely denying is very important for DotA to work, but LoL is a different game.
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Canada5565 Posts
Everyone needs to chill out.
The title of the article (as many by Kotaku are) was designed simply to attract this kind of attention. The content is obviously a joke. I'm not going to engage in this discussion but I will say that video game and esport popularity does not have to be polar or mutually exclusive.
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The reason lol seems easy is because its REALLY hard to draw someone better than you in a game. Everything is set up to make it as hard as possible for a top player to play against a bunch of mediocre ones. So you end up with everyone feeling as though they are just as good as pro players because they dont know any better.
And @ the deny discussion- the lack of deny in LoL makes laning more difficult than in dota. It is still possible to control the creep wave. Good players are capable of doing it. However, its MUCH harder because you arent given the ability to kill your own stuff.
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Damn all these AOS clones like dota/hon/lol how dare they steal a map from Sc then turn around and beat Sc2 with it...
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If only LoL and every game like it wasnt so boring...
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On March 14 2012 23:53 emucxg wrote:
ok, its controversial that if LoL is a better game than SC2, because they are two different type of games (RTS and MOBA). like other ppl have been said, maybe red apple is more sweet than green apple, but u cant compare apple with orange.
like WoW had more users than Broodwar had, but broodwar fans are never mad because WoW is more popular
on other hand, everyone can agree that Riot have done better job at promoting their game and eSport than Blizzard, im not trying to write a wall of text, just giving few example.
1. Talent:
Riot: even though Riot is much much smaller company than Blizzard, they have the most talented employee in their company focusing on ONE game.
Blizzard: Blizzard had the most talented employee in the game industry, but during past few years, a lot of them decided to leave Blizzard (You can guess why), most of them went to Valve, Microsoft and Riot. Especially in Korea, I heard that
in Korea, riot they hired most of his employee from Blizzard.
2. PR:
Riot: Excellent PR, have been giving positive/professional images, ppl love them, at same time they are user friendly, joking/trolling with community in their forums. Promoting their games in the schools, PAX, MLG etcs. They also used social media as advantage: Youtube, Facebook, Twitter.
Blizzard: Shitty PR. Screwed up with KeSPA, even KeSPA-haters decided to stand by their side.
Not user-friendly at all, yes, you made a good game, but can you stop acting like you are GOD to gamers.
When ppl asking you to add Chatroom, you wont just say: they dont need it.
When ppl asking for Cross-Region Play, you wont just say: they dont need it.
When ppl asking for LAN for the tournament, you wont just say: they wont need it.
ect...
3. Tournament:
Riot: $1 million prize pool for Season 1, $5 million prize pool for Season 2.
Blizzard: Ask money for play their games. Could have but havent done a shit for broodwar.
Again, I never compared two games, I'm comparing two game company, the way how they approach fans and esports.
just my 2 cent.
This is wrong. Only developer at Blizzard Irvine are the only group who develop Blizzard's games. Blizzard offices all over the world have nothing to do with development. So, Riot can't hire Blizzard's development team from Blizzard Korea.
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On March 14 2012 23:55 daemir wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:51 tbrown47 wrote:On March 14 2012 23:47 daemir wrote:On March 14 2012 23:39 tbrown47 wrote:On March 14 2012 23:33 daemir wrote:On March 14 2012 23:26 tbrown47 wrote:
Lack of Deny is intuitive? Huh?
Take anyone who has never ever played or heard of Dota or moba games. Put them in a lane. See if they try to kill _their own forces_ before the enemy does. How can denying possibly be intuitive for anyone who wasn't fed that idea from Dota is beyond me. You can say that about anything though... And it actually makes sense. If you get gold from killing creeps, then steal the kills from your enemies. Seems intuitive to me. But I agree it is a little weird from the outside looking in. However that isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is why take it out of the game in the first place. That is what I don't get, that is what isn't intuitive it takes away something without adding anything. And from playing 3 different LoL accounts from lvl 1 onwards I can safely say this is not intuitive for new people. What is intuitive for new people is to attack the enemy minions and kill them as fast as possible so you can go kill the enemy tower and then the next tower. You get the basic idea from just the map layout. We know it's quite bad, you should just last hit and farm, but that's not INTUITIVE for new players. Deny is even less so, it makes so little sense when you look it outside of Dota bias that it's hilarious. So I guess you read the first part of my post and not the second? edit: But I mean you can say that about any high level play. In Starcraft I should just go build Zerglings and then attack my opponent as quickly as possible? That is intuitive according to your statement about killing the enemy tower and the next tower as fast as possible. But in reality you don't do that. You build drones to support your economy first usually. Does that making droning unintuitive? I wouldn't say so. It makes it more intuitive. Why does Day9 keep repeating "probes and pylons" when he teaches new people how to play SC2? Because building drones for the first 3 minutes for completely new players is not intuitive. Making the first 6 mine and then build a structure that gives you units is intuitive.
You are dancing around the point. Starcraft is one of the greatest competitive games that has ever existed... but something as simple as droning isn't intuitive... and neither is denying. That is what I am getting at. Something doesn't have to be immediately obvious to be viable. Besides, denying isn't something you HAVE to do in DotA/HoN. It is sort of like the next step up once you have figured out how to not die in your lane. Kinda like 'Okay, I know that now I need to get farm to get items... the next step is to stop the enemy from doing what I am doing!'. It isn't like if you don't deny the "YOU LOSE" screen pops up and you get disconnected. It is another step you can take to becoming a better player. In LoL they take away denying and don't give you any other way of stopping enemy players farming. It just takes something away. It is like me going into SC2 and removing Zergling's Adrenal Glands upgrade. That doesn't give you anything.. all it does is take away from the possibilities.
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On March 14 2012 23:59 Two_DoWn wrote:
And @ the deny discussion- the lack of deny in LoL makes laning more difficult than in dota. It is still possible to control the creep wave. Good players are capable of doing it. However, its MUCH harder because you arent given the ability to kill your own stuff.
I actually always find laning in LoL to be a rather relaxing and easy thing in contrast to when I play HoN/DotA where it is a much more intense and focused effort from me. I definitely would say if they just happened to add denying to LoL, it would make the laning phase more difficult.
Regardless of the argument of whether laning in LoL is easier than laning in DotA or not, if it is in fact harder, it isn't because they took out denying. Denying literally doubles the amount of things you have to focus on and opens up a lot more considerations of opportunity cost of each individual action.
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Blizzard fucks up Korean SC2 release, foreigners still expect Korea = SC2 after all these screw-ups.
In Korea, LoL >= BW >>>>>>>>> SC2. Period.
On March 15 2012 00:01 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:53 emucxg wrote:
ok, its controversial that if LoL is a better game than SC2, because they are two different type of games (RTS and MOBA). like other ppl have been said, maybe red apple is more sweet than green apple, but u cant compare apple with orange.
like WoW had more users than Broodwar had, but broodwar fans are never mad because WoW is more popular
on other hand, everyone can agree that Riot have done better job at promoting their game and eSport than Blizzard, im not trying to write a wall of text, just giving few example.
1. Talent:
Riot: even though Riot is much much smaller company than Blizzard, they have the most talented employee in their company focusing on ONE game.
Blizzard: Blizzard had the most talented employee in the game industry, but during past few years, a lot of them decided to leave Blizzard (You can guess why), most of them went to Valve, Microsoft and Riot. Especially in Korea, I heard that
in Korea, riot they hired most of his employee from Blizzard.
2. PR:
Riot: Excellent PR, have been giving positive/professional images, ppl love them, at same time they are user friendly, joking/trolling with community in their forums. Promoting their games in the schools, PAX, MLG etcs. They also used social media as advantage: Youtube, Facebook, Twitter.
Blizzard: Shitty PR. Screwed up with KeSPA, even KeSPA-haters decided to stand by their side.
Not user-friendly at all, yes, you made a good game, but can you stop acting like you are GOD to gamers.
When ppl asking you to add Chatroom, you wont just say: they dont need it.
When ppl asking for Cross-Region Play, you wont just say: they dont need it.
When ppl asking for LAN for the tournament, you wont just say: they wont need it.
ect...
3. Tournament:
Riot: $1 million prize pool for Season 1, $5 million prize pool for Season 2.
Blizzard: Ask money for play their games. Could have but havent done a shit for broodwar.
Again, I never compared two games, I'm comparing two game company, the way how they approach fans and esports.
just my 2 cent. This is wrong. Only developer at Blizzard Irvine are the only group who develop Blizzard's games. Blizzard offices all over the world have nothing to do with development. So, Riot can't hire Blizzard's development team from Blizzard Korea.
What?
Blizzard Korea employees have moved over to Riot games Korea. Sure it may not be the development team, but the jist is that Riot games Korea atm consist of previous Blizzard workers.
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On March 14 2012 23:57 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:54 NotSorry wrote:
LoL has denying of it's own in the sense of zoning, it's not just running up and last hitting your own mobs it's forcing the other player to engage in a fight if he dares to try and last hit, freezing the lanes on your side of the map so that he has a greater risk of falling to a jungle gank if he should push forward to get at the creeps, or slamming waves of creeps into his tower while using harassment to keep him off creeps while the tower kills the creeps keeping him from getting gold. All the dota games have zoning and lane freezing (in fact, DotA/HoN even more than LoL due to creep pulling). What you're describing isn't unique to LoL at all.
It's unique in the sense that the lack of being able to last hit your own minions while zoning/freezing makes the act of zoning/freeze much different than in other AOS clones.
dota: opps I fucked up my freeze and my lane is starting to push, oh I'll just last hit my own minions
lol: opps I fucked up my freeze and my lane is starting to push, do I shove the tower? dive? do I have vision wards so I can attempt a freeze further up lane?
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EPT
