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There's no such thing as a perfect democratic system.
That being said I totally understand the frustration you're feeling. In my own experience I have felt much the same way for a long time.
What keeps me going is principle mainly, but also the knowledge that if everyone I knew who felt frustration also with the electoral process basically abstained then all we're left is with the crazies who keep on voting in people I don't want to see in office.
If all of the smart people abstain because they see the flaws in the system, then there's absolutely no way to keep the crazies out of office. The system isn't perfect but people like me continuing to vote in my opinion keeps it away from a march darker alternative.
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On March 02 2012 12:09 BluePanther wrote:I'm not going to type up some large explanation since you clearly aren't getting where I'm coming from, but you're very, very wrong.
In other words, you don't actually have a logical explanation, because you're arguing from your emotions.
I do get where you're coming from, and what it comes down to is that what I'm saying "feels wrong" to you. Again, I'd like to remind you that the human mind is inherently poor at conceptualizing probability, statistics, and economics; that's why we've developed those academic fields to model them properly.
On March 02 2012 12:09 BluePanther wrote:You're attempting to mathematicize emotions, logic, and feelings into a formula.
It's called cost-benefit analysis. It's a key principle of economics, and government experts use it constantly when considering policy options.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1353 Posts
On March 02 2012 12:07 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 03:16 KwarK wrote:
Statistically no one vote ever makes a difference, no major election is decided by a single vote. The argument "but if everyone thought like that then..." is meaningless because there is no connection between your choice to vote and anyone else's, if you go into the ballot room and spoil your ballot then nobody else will do anything different because of it. There is absolutely no value to voting beyond any personal gratification you get out of it. There is a connection. Your statement does not make the "if everyone did this" argument invalid because votes come from ideas that are shared between people and ideas have influence. You're sharing ideas now like any person would, those ideas can affect other people's decision to vote. I'm not saying anyone here is going to start some huge voting/not-voting movement by random posts in an internet thread. Rather these are old ideas that have been battling for a long time and if you're going to publicly take the position of not voting you have realize you might be responsible for other people saying "yeah he's right why am I voting anyway?", and if enough folks in your camp happen to convince enough people there'd be consequences, and you'd be a part of it. That is where the "if everyone thought..." argument comes from.
So if you boil down the argument for 'if everyone thought that way'
It basically comes down to: 'You shouldn't not vote, or at least shouldn't tell people your choosing to not vote, because they may draw conclusions that may have a negative consequence'
For a country so obsessed with fighting for your own rights, and wanting the least interference in your own lives, it seems rather silly of an argument. What people choose to do with the knowledge of how little each individual vote matters statistically is their own damn problem.
I live in a country where voting is compulsory (terrible system btw, makes me intentionally null vote most elections), and even I know what conclusions other people choose to draw from it are not my responsibility. It's not my obligation to make people fully aware of the consequences of their choosing to vote or not, nor is it my obligation to vote just so other people don't make silly decisions (though it is my obligation to vote from a purely legal perspective).
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On March 02 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Business moguls and celebrities become senators, governors, and president. Our laws, regulations, and taxes are thought up and created by people who are wealthy and powerful.
Its almost like.. people who are inteligent enough to become big business moguls are also inteligent enough to run the country!
wow what a revelation!
We should make hobos senators because they represent the common man!
no.
grow up, there is a reason you arent rich and powerful like them. They are smarter than you and better than you, they should be telling you what to do.
get back in line you god damn american just because you have the right to say whatever you want doesnt mean the crap that comes out of your mouth doesnt stink.
go back to grade school and think really hard about WHY the 40 year old woman who isnt in touch with the 7 year olds she is teaching is the teacher.
oh - i know why, shes smarter and better than you.
how can americans throw away the greatest right in the world, that to vote. Go to university or maybe read some books and then talk politics when you actually know something.
/rage
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1353 Posts
On March 02 2012 12:21 WackaAlpaca wrote:
how can americans throw away the greatest right in the world, that to vote. Go to university or maybe read some books and then talk politics when you actually know something.
/rage
I love how people draw ridiculous conclusions from what they read. Who has ever mentioned giving up your right to vote? There is a world of difference from a right to vote and an obligation to vote. I also fail to see how it's 'the greatest right in the world', I'm fairly sure if i had to choose, my various rights to personal freedom, right to dignity etc all feature way above my right to vote, in fact looking at all the rights I do have, my right(obligation in my case) to vote features pretty far down on the list.
I answer with this:
How can americans throw away their right to not vote? By obligating yourself to vote you are discarding that right.
If you want to vote, go ahead, knock yourself out, but if you don't want to vote, guess whats awesome? You don't have to either, don't let any ultra nationalistic fanatic tell you what you can or can't do concerning a choice whether you exercise a right or not.
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So many illogical people in here are trying to determine what exactly something (a vote) is worth to someone. We get it, you don't value your right to vote, but don't try to come in here with some economist trying to place value on WHAT SOMETHING MEANS TO ME. No statistical model will ever be able to define how I and others feel, so get that crap out of here. Hell, even the father of modern economics wrote an entire book on this, maybe you all should go reread it.
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On March 02 2012 12:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 12:21 WackaAlpaca wrote:
how can americans throw away the greatest right in the world, that to vote. Go to university or maybe read some books and then talk politics when you actually know something.
/rage I love how people draw ridiculous conclusions from what they read. Who has ever mentioned giving up your right to vote? There is a world of difference from a right to vote and an obligation to vote. I also fail to see how it's 'the greatest right in the world', I'm fairly sure if i had to choose, my various rights to personal freedom, right to dignity etc all feature way above my right to vote, in fact looking at all the rights I do have, my right(obligation in my case) to vote features pretty far down on the list.
the power of the vote is in that you cant infringe the other rights while you have the ability to vote. you can always vote to limit your other rights. ;-)
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I feel exactly the way you do. The political system is insanely corrupt, and such a huge portion of American voters will vote whichever way the TV tells them to.
The voting system is hugely flawed too... there are far superior systems of voting that prevent terrible candidates from getting nominated due to vote splitting. In the current system you could have two intelligent moderates and one crazy "religious law is the only law" fundamentalist, and the fundie will win because the other candidates are competing for the same votes.
However, I do vote. I vote for a third party candidate in every election. A high vote count for a third party candidate will scare the two major parties into taking more moderate positions, out of fear of losing their support.
So while my vote is technically "wasted" on a candidate who won't win, third party voters are sending a message to cut down on the partisan craziness or else there's a chance the two-party system will become a three-party system -- the very last thing they'd ever want to see.
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On March 02 2012 07:21 DDie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 02:57 D10 wrote:
I wish I could not vote, here in Brazil if you dont go vote you lose a lot of rights =(
One of the reasons we elect so many corrupt politicians, so many people with 0 idea of politics voting I assume you remember all the candidates you voted in the last election, yes?
Yes, Dilma for President, Cabral for governor, Paes for Mayor, Romario for deputy, and blank vote for everything else
On March 02 2012 12:08 dANiELcanuck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 02:57 D10 wrote:
I wish I could not vote, here in Brazil if you dont go vote you lose a lot of rights =(
One of the reasons we elect so many corrupt politicians, so many people with 0 idea of politics voting They technically aren't "rights" if someone can take them away from you.
So freedom is not a right because the goverment can take it away from you ? (aka prison)
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1353 Posts
On March 02 2012 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 12:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 02 2012 12:21 WackaAlpaca wrote:
how can americans throw away the greatest right in the world, that to vote. Go to university or maybe read some books and then talk politics when you actually know something.
/rage I love how people draw ridiculous conclusions from what they read. Who has ever mentioned giving up your right to vote? There is a world of difference from a right to vote and an obligation to vote. I also fail to see how it's 'the greatest right in the world', I'm fairly sure if i had to choose, my various rights to personal freedom, right to dignity etc all feature way above my right to vote, in fact looking at all the rights I do have, my right(obligation in my case) to vote features pretty far down on the list. the power of the vote is in that you cant infringe the other rights while you have the ability to vote. you can always vote to limit your other rights. ;-)
Well to be fair, there are few if any direct democracies in the world, so noone gets to vote to restrict their rights, they could vote in someone who wants to restrict other rights.
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On March 02 2012 12:38 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 02 2012 12:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 02 2012 12:21 WackaAlpaca wrote:
how can americans throw away the greatest right in the world, that to vote. Go to university or maybe read some books and then talk politics when you actually know something.
/rage I love how people draw ridiculous conclusions from what they read. Who has ever mentioned giving up your right to vote? There is a world of difference from a right to vote and an obligation to vote. I also fail to see how it's 'the greatest right in the world', I'm fairly sure if i had to choose, my various rights to personal freedom, right to dignity etc all feature way above my right to vote, in fact looking at all the rights I do have, my right(obligation in my case) to vote features pretty far down on the list. the power of the vote is in that you cant infringe the other rights while you have the ability to vote. you can always vote to limit your other rights. ;-) Well to be fair, there are few if any direct democracies in the world, so noone gets to vote to restrict their rights, they could vote in someone who wants to restrict other rights.
yep. its a representational democracy. however, there are still voter ballots that restrict rights. california just voted to amend the constitution to prevent gay marriage so that the courts couldnt decide the issue for them (although the courts have basically said so far that the constitutional amendment is unconstitional).
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On March 02 2012 12:45 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 12:38 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 02 2012 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 02 2012 12:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 02 2012 12:21 WackaAlpaca wrote:
how can americans throw away the greatest right in the world, that to vote. Go to university or maybe read some books and then talk politics when you actually know something.
/rage I love how people draw ridiculous conclusions from what they read. Who has ever mentioned giving up your right to vote? There is a world of difference from a right to vote and an obligation to vote. I also fail to see how it's 'the greatest right in the world', I'm fairly sure if i had to choose, my various rights to personal freedom, right to dignity etc all feature way above my right to vote, in fact looking at all the rights I do have, my right(obligation in my case) to vote features pretty far down on the list. the power of the vote is in that you cant infringe the other rights while you have the ability to vote. you can always vote to limit your other rights. ;-) Well to be fair, there are few if any direct democracies in the world, so noone gets to vote to restrict their rights, they could vote in someone who wants to restrict other rights. yep. its a representational democracy. however, there are still voter ballots that restrict rights. california just voted to amend the constitution to prevent gay marriage so that the courts couldnt decide the issue for them (although the courts have basically said so far that the constitutional amendment is unconstitional).
Is that a right or a freedom though?
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On March 02 2012 12:53 NationInArms wrote:Is that a right or a freedom though?
In the case of gay marriage, it's a right to equal treatment by the state.
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tl:dr
User was temp banned for this post.
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I don't vote because I don't want to do Jury Duty.
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On March 02 2012 13:00 Hall0wed wrote:
I don't vote because I don't want to do Jury Duty.
i assume you dont have a license then as well, because most juries are selected from DMV records.
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On March 02 2012 12:53 NationInArms wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 12:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 02 2012 12:38 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 02 2012 12:29 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 02 2012 12:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 02 2012 12:21 WackaAlpaca wrote:
how can americans throw away the greatest right in the world, that to vote. Go to university or maybe read some books and then talk politics when you actually know something.
/rage I love how people draw ridiculous conclusions from what they read. Who has ever mentioned giving up your right to vote? There is a world of difference from a right to vote and an obligation to vote. I also fail to see how it's 'the greatest right in the world', I'm fairly sure if i had to choose, my various rights to personal freedom, right to dignity etc all feature way above my right to vote, in fact looking at all the rights I do have, my right(obligation in my case) to vote features pretty far down on the list. the power of the vote is in that you cant infringe the other rights while you have the ability to vote. you can always vote to limit your other rights. ;-) Well to be fair, there are few if any direct democracies in the world, so noone gets to vote to restrict their rights, they could vote in someone who wants to restrict other rights. yep. its a representational democracy. however, there are still voter ballots that restrict rights. california just voted to amend the constitution to prevent gay marriage so that the courts couldnt decide the issue for them (although the courts have basically said so far that the constitutional amendment is unconstitional). Is that a right or a freedom though?
im not sure how you differentiate them, so i cant answer that.
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On March 02 2012 13:08 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 13:00 Hall0wed wrote:
I don't vote because I don't want to do Jury Duty. i assume you dont have a license then as well, because most juries are selected from DMV records.
No, selected from Voter registration or DMV. Obviously I have a license, I am just decreasing my chances of being called.
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Here's an excerpt I like to look at every now and then. Where its from, I really don't recall.
"They want us to believe its a democrats vs republicans thing when in reality its a federal government vs the people thing.
Democrat, Republican doesn't matter... they all want to control us. They use this back and forth game to distract us while they take away our rights and send us to die in their wars."
"Remove the electoral college and make every vote count!" I agree with this statement.
Edit: I vote for every presidential election. And I try to vote for every other minor election that comes my way. Why? My population, the young adults don't vote enough, so why would the people being voted for care for a demographic they know won't vote. The more you vote, the more they know we care... The more they will cater to us, or so I say.
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On March 02 2012 13:11 Hall0wed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 13:08 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 02 2012 13:00 Hall0wed wrote:
I don't vote because I don't want to do Jury Duty. i assume you dont have a license then as well, because most juries are selected from DMV records. No, selected from Voter registration or DMV. Obviously I have a license, I am just decreasing my chances of being called.
i just tell them im a lawyer and then they hate me and excuse me. ;-)
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EPT
