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On November 27 2018 12:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 12:33 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2018 12:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 27 2018 11:53 Danglars wrote:On November 26 2018 02:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 25 2018 12:55 Danglars wrote:
With all of these devolving into hypotheticals and poor examples, I'll have to wait if micronesia can actually answer the original post. I don't really care to continue postulating on perhaps this and probably that in instances that don't pertain to current events and are unlikely to shake anybody of their original beliefs. I brought it up with him because it was perhaps our last real engaged exchange. The states and districts with armed teachers are unlikely to reverse course, and I'm very happy with that fact. You brought up a very specific suggestion about gun lockers in schools to be accessed by a set of voluntarily trained teachers during emergencies. I laid out a set of issues and critiques with that idea, and was hoping you'd respond to them, to say nothing of the several other responses and criticisms you received from other people. It seems unfair for you to throw out a controversial idea and then ignore a debate on its merits, as this is a discussion forum. I only referenced the last disagreement I had with micronesia, before he cut off further exchanges. The post is here. I outlined my basic reasons to questioners purely out of the generosity of my heart. The issue is locked in a somewhat favorable position for me (several states and school districts allow it with training and concealed carry; and they will resist gun-grabbers attempts to disarm them once again). I am neither a teacher nor do I engage to convince everybody around here of the superiority of my position. I know some people will argue with me on any topic until the both of us are blue in the face. So I'll continue to pick and choose the topics that interest me more, with a view to current events if there are more school shootings in the next few months, and you can allege what seems and does not seem unfair to you as long as you wish. There will always be the next fight for gun control and gun rights. Just want to point out that the impetus for that will be a bunch of dead innocent people that probably could have been prevented if we focused on implementing effective regulations instead of bickering over bad ideas and remaining willfully ignorant about the related topics. I am neither a teacher. This seems innocuous but it's signals a particular detached perspective that is reaffirmed with the casual nature of the bold. nor do I engage to convince everybody around here of the superiority of my position
Honestly I don't really care which position is right from a 10k ft. perspective. If arming teachers actually did anything but make classrooms more dangerous and drive some short term gun sales I'd be with you. Basically your position is constrained by your ideological perspective. My imperative is preserving life and liberty as represented by advocating preventing fire-arm related deaths and securing my right to own my firearm. You position is ideologically trapped. Regardless of what any amount of data could show you, you can't accept conceptually the idea that more guns in classrooms will result in more accidents and malicious behavior, therefore resulting in more death and suffering than taking that same motivation to secure classrooms and focusing it on preventing people from obtaining improperly secured guns and bringing them to school (or anywhere else these teachers would be useless) in the first place. Put another way, I want to keep my gun and some dumbass teacher shooting a kid is far more likely to make me lose it than if we implement some reasonable regulations on securing firearms. Also it will save a hell of a lot more lives. Last I remember you're not even into guns so please don't screw this up for people who actually enjoy shooting and can't call the police for fear they end up shooting us in a panic by standing by this ridiculousness. I'm asking not from the gun reform side but from the gun owner side of this argument. I am and was quite well informed of how stupid and dangerous you thought my outlook was as outlined. I did do everyone here the honor of reading their posts. The psychoanalysis is purely frivolous from you. There was 0 psychoanalysis (though you thinking there was is beyond tempting). That was strictly about your position. Think about what you're actually saying. You want to increase the number of guns on school grounds and are simply waving off the corresponding increase in gun accidents and misuse for a benefit of iirc an unclear reduction in response time. Neglecting that even if the teachers were inexplicably better than the people we pay and train to handle these incidents, it's not apparent that even if they reduced mass shootings to 0 that we wouldn't end up with accidental, misuse, and failure to properly secure deaths that were higher than mass shooting incidents. Meanwhile the "gun grabbers" would still be frantically "grabbing guns" because we've done little to nothing to reduce gun related deaths and created a brand new sensational headline genre around idiot teachers and mischievous kids. Like I said, it's a stupid idea because some critical thinking and statistical analysis makes it pretty obvious. My point was merely that your position is ideologically caged otherwise you'd easily concede that laws concerning proper gun storage would be more effective and practical to reduce gun related deaths and therefor better secure our 2nd amendment rights. If there's a logical construction free from such restrictive ideology you didn't present it and I haven't heard it elsewhere.
You call it what you want, and I'll call it psychoanalysis. Such and such is is because my ideology traps me, such and such I can't accept conceptually regardless of data, ideological caging, the nature of my unstated imperatives. You're presenting the conclusions after having placed me on the metaphorical couch, then doubling back to say it's the only logical construction that works and you've never heard otherwise. Meanwhile, you've done very little to convince me you aren't a transvestite and constrained by Islamist ideology, and that all fits my little conception of you, so I'll have to conclude that's what ails your current understanding ... if you catch my drift. You can spend a very great deal of time constructing boxes for someone, proving to yourself and other inclined persons that it's a good fit, arguing that other fits are simply illogical and it's up to that someone to prove they're not such a good fit, and then relaxing saying it all isn't a form of psychoanalysis. It's not a game I'm interested in playing out.
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On November 27 2018 13:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 12:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 27 2018 12:33 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2018 12:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 27 2018 11:53 Danglars wrote:On November 26 2018 02:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 25 2018 12:55 Danglars wrote:
With all of these devolving into hypotheticals and poor examples, I'll have to wait if micronesia can actually answer the original post. I don't really care to continue postulating on perhaps this and probably that in instances that don't pertain to current events and are unlikely to shake anybody of their original beliefs. I brought it up with him because it was perhaps our last real engaged exchange. The states and districts with armed teachers are unlikely to reverse course, and I'm very happy with that fact. You brought up a very specific suggestion about gun lockers in schools to be accessed by a set of voluntarily trained teachers during emergencies. I laid out a set of issues and critiques with that idea, and was hoping you'd respond to them, to say nothing of the several other responses and criticisms you received from other people. It seems unfair for you to throw out a controversial idea and then ignore a debate on its merits, as this is a discussion forum. I only referenced the last disagreement I had with micronesia, before he cut off further exchanges. The post is here. I outlined my basic reasons to questioners purely out of the generosity of my heart. The issue is locked in a somewhat favorable position for me (several states and school districts allow it with training and concealed carry; and they will resist gun-grabbers attempts to disarm them once again). I am neither a teacher nor do I engage to convince everybody around here of the superiority of my position. I know some people will argue with me on any topic until the both of us are blue in the face. So I'll continue to pick and choose the topics that interest me more, with a view to current events if there are more school shootings in the next few months, and you can allege what seems and does not seem unfair to you as long as you wish. There will always be the next fight for gun control and gun rights. Just want to point out that the impetus for that will be a bunch of dead innocent people that probably could have been prevented if we focused on implementing effective regulations instead of bickering over bad ideas and remaining willfully ignorant about the related topics. I am neither a teacher. This seems innocuous but it's signals a particular detached perspective that is reaffirmed with the casual nature of the bold. nor do I engage to convince everybody around here of the superiority of my position
Honestly I don't really care which position is right from a 10k ft. perspective. If arming teachers actually did anything but make classrooms more dangerous and drive some short term gun sales I'd be with you. Basically your position is constrained by your ideological perspective. My imperative is preserving life and liberty as represented by advocating preventing fire-arm related deaths and securing my right to own my firearm. You position is ideologically trapped. Regardless of what any amount of data could show you, you can't accept conceptually the idea that more guns in classrooms will result in more accidents and malicious behavior, therefore resulting in more death and suffering than taking that same motivation to secure classrooms and focusing it on preventing people from obtaining improperly secured guns and bringing them to school (or anywhere else these teachers would be useless) in the first place. Put another way, I want to keep my gun and some dumbass teacher shooting a kid is far more likely to make me lose it than if we implement some reasonable regulations on securing firearms. Also it will save a hell of a lot more lives. Last I remember you're not even into guns so please don't screw this up for people who actually enjoy shooting and can't call the police for fear they end up shooting us in a panic by standing by this ridiculousness. I'm asking not from the gun reform side but from the gun owner side of this argument. I am and was quite well informed of how stupid and dangerous you thought my outlook was as outlined. I did do everyone here the honor of reading their posts. The psychoanalysis is purely frivolous from you. There was 0 psychoanalysis (though you thinking there was is beyond tempting). That was strictly about your position. Think about what you're actually saying. You want to increase the number of guns on school grounds and are simply waving off the corresponding increase in gun accidents and misuse for a benefit of iirc an unclear reduction in response time. Neglecting that even if the teachers were inexplicably better than the people we pay and train to handle these incidents, it's not apparent that even if they reduced mass shootings to 0 that we wouldn't end up with accidental, misuse, and failure to properly secure deaths that were higher than mass shooting incidents. Meanwhile the "gun grabbers" would still be frantically "grabbing guns" because we've done little to nothing to reduce gun related deaths and created a brand new sensational headline genre around idiot teachers and mischievous kids. Like I said, it's a stupid idea because some critical thinking and statistical analysis makes it pretty obvious. My point was merely that your position is ideologically caged otherwise you'd easily concede that laws concerning proper gun storage would be more effective and practical to reduce gun related deaths and therefor better secure our 2nd amendment rights. If there's a logical construction free from such restrictive ideology you didn't present it and I haven't heard it elsewhere. You call it what you want, and I'll call it psychoanalysis. Such and such is is because my ideology traps me, such and such I can't accept conceptually regardless of data, ideological caging, the nature of my unstated imperatives. You're presenting the conclusions after having placed me on the metaphorical couch, then doubling back to say it's the only logical construction that works and you've never heard otherwise. Meanwhile, you've done very little to convince me you aren't a transvestite and constrained by Islamist ideology, and that all fits my little conception of you, so I'll have to conclude that's what ails your current understanding ... if you catch my drift. You can spend a very great deal of time constructing boxes for someone, proving to yourself and other inclined persons that it's a good fit, arguing that other fits are simply illogical and it's up to that someone to prove they're not such a good fit, and then relaxing saying it all isn't a form of psychoanalysis. It's not a game I'm interested in playing out.
lol the transvestite one is hard in our circumstances but no shortage of questions you could ask to clear up the Islamist ideology part. Like I tried with your inexplicable perception that whatever that was is a better use of your time than addressing the pertinent critique about how a rudimentary CBA of your idea makes it flushworthy on it's face. It's nothing personal, but the only explanation I can fathom is as I described, ideologically.
You've opted to not make your case on why we should join you in your belief that more guns in schools wont cause the same thing as more guns everywhere else or that teachers will be more effective than the people who we pay and train to do what you're suggesting we make teachers the new first responders to. This further confirms the observation that your position isn't built on reason and logic but ideology and emotion. Unless of course there's an argument you haven't made or are presuming we're supposed to be applying here that the rest of us are unaware of.
So I'll look out for that argument or leave my piece there for now.
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On November 27 2018 11:53 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 02:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 25 2018 12:55 Danglars wrote:
With all of these devolving into hypotheticals and poor examples, I'll have to wait if micronesia can actually answer the original post. I don't really care to continue postulating on perhaps this and probably that in instances that don't pertain to current events and are unlikely to shake anybody of their original beliefs. I brought it up with him because it was perhaps our last real engaged exchange. The states and districts with armed teachers are unlikely to reverse course, and I'm very happy with that fact. You brought up a very specific suggestion about gun lockers in schools to be accessed by a set of voluntarily trained teachers during emergencies. I laid out a set of issues and critiques with that idea, and was hoping you'd respond to them, to say nothing of the several other responses and criticisms you received from other people. It seems unfair for you to throw out a controversial idea and then ignore a debate on its merits, as this is a discussion forum. I only referenced the last disagreement I had with micronesia, before he cut off further exchanges. The post is here. I outlined my basic reasons to questioners purely out of the generosity of my heart. The issue is locked in a somewhat favorable position for me (several states and school districts allow it with training and concealed carry; and they will resist gun-grabbers attempts to disarm them once again). I am neither a teacher nor do I engage to convince everybody around here of the superiority of my position. I know some people will argue with me on any topic until the both of us are blue in the face. So I'll continue to pick and choose the topics that interest me more, with a view to current events if there are more school shootings in the next few months, and you can allege what seems and does not seem unfair to you as long as you wish. There will always be the next fight for gun control and gun rights.
I understand, and it's very frustrating to me that you're less concerned with finding the best solutions for children, gun owners, and Americans in general, and just satisfied with the fact that some lawmakers agree with your unreasonable position on arming teachers. But I'm also aware that it's certainly not your job to humor me or spar with me; it's my frustration, not yours.
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On November 27 2018 13:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 11:53 Danglars wrote:On November 26 2018 02:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 25 2018 12:55 Danglars wrote:
With all of these devolving into hypotheticals and poor examples, I'll have to wait if micronesia can actually answer the original post. I don't really care to continue postulating on perhaps this and probably that in instances that don't pertain to current events and are unlikely to shake anybody of their original beliefs. I brought it up with him because it was perhaps our last real engaged exchange. The states and districts with armed teachers are unlikely to reverse course, and I'm very happy with that fact. You brought up a very specific suggestion about gun lockers in schools to be accessed by a set of voluntarily trained teachers during emergencies. I laid out a set of issues and critiques with that idea, and was hoping you'd respond to them, to say nothing of the several other responses and criticisms you received from other people. It seems unfair for you to throw out a controversial idea and then ignore a debate on its merits, as this is a discussion forum. I only referenced the last disagreement I had with micronesia, before he cut off further exchanges. The post is here. I outlined my basic reasons to questioners purely out of the generosity of my heart. The issue is locked in a somewhat favorable position for me (several states and school districts allow it with training and concealed carry; and they will resist gun-grabbers attempts to disarm them once again). I am neither a teacher nor do I engage to convince everybody around here of the superiority of my position. I know some people will argue with me on any topic until the both of us are blue in the face. So I'll continue to pick and choose the topics that interest me more, with a view to current events if there are more school shootings in the next few months, and you can allege what seems and does not seem unfair to you as long as you wish. There will always be the next fight for gun control and gun rights. I understand, and it's very frustrating to me that you're less concerned with finding the best solutions for children, gun owners, and Americans in general, and just satisfied with the fact that some lawmakers agree with your unreasonable position on arming teachers. But I'm also aware that it's certainly not your job to humor me or spar with me; it's my frustration, not yours.
I understand you and thank you for your response, such as this level of mutual understanding confirms.
I'd probably do their cause a great injustice from not having read up on the debates (the minutes of legislature and school district board meetings). It's more forceful to know what teachers on the other side think and people who are passionate on the other side of the aisle within the field most affected, rather than what I think (and the subject is always just metal detectors and police adjuncts in my area of California). I really do wish we had more rural posters and active posters from those community, who *might* call across and wonder why DarkPlasmaBall thinks the reason for disagreement is lack of concern with finding the best solutions for children, gun owners, and Americans, when obviously the views of DarkPlasmaBall are exactly the wrong solutions and stances. Alas, no such luck.
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On November 26 2018 13:44 micronesia wrote:@ ShambhalaWar and @ Jockmcplop Show nested quote +On November 24 2018 17:44 Jockmcplop wrote:@micronesia Can you point to times when I accepted faulty arguments from gun rights advocates here? If so, I should retract my support/acceptance. As I explained, you are supporting their faulty arguments by completely ignoring them while nitpicking every argument that comes from the other side. The faulty posts you most likely have in mind are already torn apart by several other people each. Usually, I don't have anything that good to add and piling on will just make the thread worse (we already have a problem with that). The lower-quality 'more gun control' posts tend to just get ignored or get attacked in disingenuous ways only. I will try to seek out opportunities when posters making very questionable 'pro-gun' arguments aren't already under siege and and weigh in. I think its a dangerous precedent though to call people out in this way.
Ehh maybe its wrong to call people out in that way.
I wasn't using it as a call out really I'm just trying to put the point across that the positions you choose to argue against carry an implication of the positions you support.
You have gone further and explained your position so fair enough. Maybe I was out of line.
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On November 26 2018 13:44 micronesia wrote:@ ShambhalaWar and @ Jockmcplop Show nested quote +On November 24 2018 17:44 Jockmcplop wrote:@micronesia Can you point to times when I accepted faulty arguments from gun rights advocates here? If so, I should retract my support/acceptance. As I explained, you are supporting their faulty arguments by completely ignoring them while nitpicking every argument that comes from the other side. The faulty posts you most likely have in mind are already torn apart by several other people each. Usually, I don't have anything that good to add and piling on will just make the thread worse (we already have a problem with that). The lower-quality 'more gun control' posts tend to just get ignored or get attacked in disingenuous ways only. I will try to seek out opportunities when posters making very questionable 'pro-gun' arguments aren't already under siege and and weigh in. I think its a dangerous precedent though to call people out in this way.
Regarding armed teachers... I don't see the stowage of firearms in schools working well except in places where people are more comfortable with guns than they are with books. Those places may exist, but I am not familiar with them. Everything else being equal, I barely trust typical school administrations to implement a successful system when it comes to bus schedules, extra credit, or detention, let alone strategies for hardening the building against heavily armed crazy assailants using little more than volunteers. DarkPlasmaBall raised some very reasonable logistical questions. I don't see how the small number of trained volunteers get to the gun safe, especially in an environment with non-existent command and control and tremendous amounts of fog of war. Once armed cops start responding they are running into a gun fight where they don't know what the heck is going on. The first thing we need to do is recognize that once some nut with firearms is shooting up a school there are no good solutions.
Can you explain why it is dangerous to call people out and also explain exactly what "calling out" means to you?
I'm genuinely curious. I would say that scapegoating someone is definitely bad, and at the far end of that spectrum could also be dangerous.
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He also repeatedly told the judge that the fire was "a complete accident."
You have to be remarkably ignorant to put explosives in a bunch of dry grass and think the word "accident" has any application here.
You could do that 100 times and, provided you hit the target, start a massive fire 100 times. This is literally "I didn't know the fire would light the massive amount of dry grass it's surrounded by in a desert".
Who could possibly be so ignorant and how piss poor could they have been trained to handle firearms?
The man who shot the target, off-duty US Border Patrol agent Dennis Dickey
Oh...
...pleaded guilty in September of this year to a misdemeanor violation of US Forest Service regulations and was sentenced to five years' probation. He also was ordered to pay $8,188,069 in restitution, starting with an initial payment of $100,000 and monthly payments thereafter.
I mean if you work for Border patrol you've probably been party to some heinous stuff but this is sorta archaic and stupid. Perhaps if criminal organizations like deutsche bank paid comparable rates on their plunder it'd seem less lopsided.
The best part though is the guy not only gets to keep owning guns (unless there's a quirk in AZ state law) but the government is going to continue to issue him one directly.
EDIT: Random aside, HTF is doing $8,000,000+ in damage a misdemeanor, But peacefully walking out of Walmart with a $400 TV you didn't pay for a felony? (someone wants to talk about this part they can bring it to my blog I suppose)
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On November 28 2018 14:26 GreenHorizons wrote:You have to be remarkably ignorant to put explosives in a bunch of dry grass and think the word "accident" has any application here. You could do that 100 times and, provided you hit the target, start a massive fire 100 times. This is literally "I didn't know the fire would light the massive amount of dry grass it's surrounded by in a desert". Who could possibly be so ignorant and how piss poor could they have been trained to handle firearms? Oh... Show nested quote +...pleaded guilty in September of this year to a misdemeanor violation of US Forest Service regulations and was sentenced to five years' probation. He also was ordered to pay $8,188,069 in restitution, starting with an initial payment of $100,000 and monthly payments thereafter. I mean if you work for Border patrol you've probably been party to some heinous stuff but this is sorta archaic and stupid. Perhaps if criminal organizations like deutsche bank paid comparable rates on their plunder it'd seem less lopsided. The best part though is the guy not only gets to keep owning guns (unless there's a quirk in AZ state law) but the government is going to continue to issue him one directly. EDIT: Random aside, HTF is doing $8,000,000+ in damage a misdemeanor, But peacefully walking out of Walmart with a $400 TV you didn't pay for a felony? (someone wants to talk about this part they can bring it to my blog I suppose)
I am by no means a fan of border patrol... or anyone who would do a gender reveal with explosives and a rifle...
But... like you said... HTF is anyone supposed to pay 8 mil on a border patrol salary.
That kids life is already fucked.
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An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said.
The inmate was still in his orange jail jumpsuit and had grabbed a knife sharpening tool from the woman’s kitchen in Pickens as he headed toward her bedroom around 3 a.m. Tuesday, Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark said.
“This was a big guy. If she hadn’t had a weapon there’s no telling what would have happened,” Clark said. “I gave her a big hug. I told her how proud I was of her.”
The woman was home alone and had gone through training to get a concealed weapons permit, Clark said.
Bruce McLaughlin Jr., 30, died from a gunshot to the head, Pickens County Coroner Kandy Kelley said.
McLaughlin and a second inmate, Timothy Dill, beat up two guards in an escape they had planned for days, Clark said at a news conference.
Dill was recaptured by deputies without incident about the same time McLaughlin was shot, but the two were going in opposite directions, the sheriff said.
The guards had bruises and one complained of a sore back, but they should recover, Clark said.
Inmates tried to help the guards while they were attacked, Clark said.
McLaughlin and Dill stole the guards’ keys and locked them in a room, but inmates also broke the door down, the sheriff said.
Dill is charged with escape along with two counts of kidnapping, and first-degree assault and battery as well as other charges.
McLaughlin had been in and out of the Pickens County jail about a dozen times on charges ranging from drug possession to assaulting a police officer to shoplifting. He was currently awaiting trial on first-degree burglary and grand larceny charges, according to sheriff’s office records.
Dill was awaiting trial on a criminal sexual conduct with a minor charge.
The sheriff said the homeowner was shaken by the shooting and asked him to help her maintain her privacy. He did not release her name.
Clark said he thinks the shooting is justified, but will forward the case file to prosecutors once the investigation is finished.
“This is the shining example” of why owning and knowing how to use a gun is important, the sheriff said.
“She came out on the good on this end and the other guy, the bad guy, didn’t,” Clark said.
KTLA
Just because this thread tends towards the gruesome and routinely disparages good guys (gals) with guns, he's a story of when it mattered from the other side. I stand against anyone that wants to belittle armed citizens at home, implying it's better off for them to not own a gun than to have one available for home defense. Three cheers for the woman, and for South Carolina's "Shall Issue" laws.
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On December 06 2018 05:28 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said.
The inmate was still in his orange jail jumpsuit and had grabbed a knife sharpening tool from the woman’s kitchen in Pickens as he headed toward her bedroom around 3 a.m. Tuesday, Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark said.
“This was a big guy. If she hadn’t had a weapon there’s no telling what would have happened,” Clark said. “I gave her a big hug. I told her how proud I was of her.”
The woman was home alone and had gone through training to get a concealed weapons permit, Clark said.
Bruce McLaughlin Jr., 30, died from a gunshot to the head, Pickens County Coroner Kandy Kelley said.
McLaughlin and a second inmate, Timothy Dill, beat up two guards in an escape they had planned for days, Clark said at a news conference.
Dill was recaptured by deputies without incident about the same time McLaughlin was shot, but the two were going in opposite directions, the sheriff said.
The guards had bruises and one complained of a sore back, but they should recover, Clark said.
Inmates tried to help the guards while they were attacked, Clark said.
McLaughlin and Dill stole the guards’ keys and locked them in a room, but inmates also broke the door down, the sheriff said.
Dill is charged with escape along with two counts of kidnapping, and first-degree assault and battery as well as other charges.
McLaughlin had been in and out of the Pickens County jail about a dozen times on charges ranging from drug possession to assaulting a police officer to shoplifting. He was currently awaiting trial on first-degree burglary and grand larceny charges, according to sheriff’s office records.
Dill was awaiting trial on a criminal sexual conduct with a minor charge.
The sheriff said the homeowner was shaken by the shooting and asked him to help her maintain her privacy. He did not release her name.
Clark said he thinks the shooting is justified, but will forward the case file to prosecutors once the investigation is finished.
“This is the shining example” of why owning and knowing how to use a gun is important, the sheriff said.
“She came out on the good on this end and the other guy, the bad guy, didn’t,” Clark said. KTLAJust because this thread tends towards the gruesome and routinely disparages good guys (gals) with guns, he's a story of when it mattered from the other side. I stand against anyone that wants to belittle armed citizens at home, implying it's better off for them to not own a gun than to have one available for home defense. Three cheers for the woman, and for South Carolina's "Shall Issue" laws.
This doesn’t really happen. There is no disparaging of real people who commit acts of heroism or defend themselves, you simply imply that is the case by putting words into peoples mouths. It is good that the woman was able to defend herself and you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the thread who would say otherwise.
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On December 06 2018 05:28 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said.
The inmate was still in his orange jail jumpsuit and had grabbed a knife sharpening tool from the woman’s kitchen in Pickens as he headed toward her bedroom around 3 a.m. Tuesday, Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark said.
“This was a big guy. If she hadn’t had a weapon there’s no telling what would have happened,” Clark said. “I gave her a big hug. I told her how proud I was of her.”
The woman was home alone and had gone through training to get a concealed weapons permit, Clark said.
Bruce McLaughlin Jr., 30, died from a gunshot to the head, Pickens County Coroner Kandy Kelley said.
McLaughlin and a second inmate, Timothy Dill, beat up two guards in an escape they had planned for days, Clark said at a news conference.
Dill was recaptured by deputies without incident about the same time McLaughlin was shot, but the two were going in opposite directions, the sheriff said.
The guards had bruises and one complained of a sore back, but they should recover, Clark said.
Inmates tried to help the guards while they were attacked, Clark said.
McLaughlin and Dill stole the guards’ keys and locked them in a room, but inmates also broke the door down, the sheriff said.
Dill is charged with escape along with two counts of kidnapping, and first-degree assault and battery as well as other charges.
McLaughlin had been in and out of the Pickens County jail about a dozen times on charges ranging from drug possession to assaulting a police officer to shoplifting. He was currently awaiting trial on first-degree burglary and grand larceny charges, according to sheriff’s office records.
Dill was awaiting trial on a criminal sexual conduct with a minor charge.
The sheriff said the homeowner was shaken by the shooting and asked him to help her maintain her privacy. He did not release her name.
Clark said he thinks the shooting is justified, but will forward the case file to prosecutors once the investigation is finished.
“This is the shining example” of why owning and knowing how to use a gun is important, the sheriff said.
“She came out on the good on this end and the other guy, the bad guy, didn’t,” Clark said. KTLAJust because this thread tends towards the gruesome and routinely disparages good guys (gals) with guns, he's a story of when it mattered from the other side. I stand against anyone that wants to belittle armed citizens at home, implying it's better off for them to not own a gun than to have one available for home defense. Three cheers for the woman, and for South Carolina's "Shall Issue" laws.
The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it twists reality to one specific episode instead of looking at things from a whole. Statistically, you are way more likely to die if you own a gun for self defence. For every one of these episodes there are 100 where people have shot themselves, their kids, their wifes, their parents etc on accident because there is literally no requirements for owning a gun, such a knowing how to handle it safely.
Not to mention all the "bad guys with a gun" who wouldn't be able to get one if they were a bit more restricted.
I'm not going to pretend there are no cases where owning a gun for self defence is correct. For instance if you have a legit threat against you, or if you live so remotely it could take hours for police to show up. However you should still require some sort of training to be able to own one, if only for your own safety. People need to know where the safety is, how to hold it, where not to point it, trigger discipline, how to properly store it, how to tell the difference between a mass murderer and a random black person, and what the gun laws are.
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On December 06 2018 06:37 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 05:28 Danglars wrote:An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said.
The inmate was still in his orange jail jumpsuit and had grabbed a knife sharpening tool from the woman’s kitchen in Pickens as he headed toward her bedroom around 3 a.m. Tuesday, Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark said.
“This was a big guy. If she hadn’t had a weapon there’s no telling what would have happened,” Clark said. “I gave her a big hug. I told her how proud I was of her.”
The woman was home alone and had gone through training to get a concealed weapons permit, Clark said.
Bruce McLaughlin Jr., 30, died from a gunshot to the head, Pickens County Coroner Kandy Kelley said.
McLaughlin and a second inmate, Timothy Dill, beat up two guards in an escape they had planned for days, Clark said at a news conference.
Dill was recaptured by deputies without incident about the same time McLaughlin was shot, but the two were going in opposite directions, the sheriff said.
The guards had bruises and one complained of a sore back, but they should recover, Clark said.
Inmates tried to help the guards while they were attacked, Clark said.
McLaughlin and Dill stole the guards’ keys and locked them in a room, but inmates also broke the door down, the sheriff said.
Dill is charged with escape along with two counts of kidnapping, and first-degree assault and battery as well as other charges.
McLaughlin had been in and out of the Pickens County jail about a dozen times on charges ranging from drug possession to assaulting a police officer to shoplifting. He was currently awaiting trial on first-degree burglary and grand larceny charges, according to sheriff’s office records.
Dill was awaiting trial on a criminal sexual conduct with a minor charge.
The sheriff said the homeowner was shaken by the shooting and asked him to help her maintain her privacy. He did not release her name.
Clark said he thinks the shooting is justified, but will forward the case file to prosecutors once the investigation is finished.
“This is the shining example” of why owning and knowing how to use a gun is important, the sheriff said.
“She came out on the good on this end and the other guy, the bad guy, didn’t,” Clark said. KTLAJust because this thread tends towards the gruesome and routinely disparages good guys (gals) with guns, he's a story of when it mattered from the other side. I stand against anyone that wants to belittle armed citizens at home, implying it's better off for them to not own a gun than to have one available for home defense. Three cheers for the woman, and for South Carolina's "Shall Issue" laws. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it twists reality to one specific episode instead of looking at things from a whole. Statistically, you are way more likely to die if you own a gun for self defence. For every one of these episodes there are 100 where people have shot themselves, their kids, their wifes, their parents etc on accident because there is literally no requirements for owning a gun, such a knowing how to handle it safely. Not to mention all the "bad guys with a gun" who wouldn't be able to get one if they were a bit more restricted. I'm not going to pretend there are no cases where owning a gun for self defence is correct. For instance if you have a legit threat against you, or if you live so remotely it could take hours for police to show up. However you should still require some sort of training to be able to own one, if only for your own safety. People need to know where the safety is, how to hold it, where not to point it, trigger discipline, how to properly store it, how to tell the difference between a mass murderer and a random black person, and what the gun laws are.
Considering we can't get the police to get that sort of training there is 0 chance of passing it for regular gun owners.
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On December 06 2018 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 06:37 Excludos wrote:On December 06 2018 05:28 Danglars wrote:An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said.
The inmate was still in his orange jail jumpsuit and had grabbed a knife sharpening tool from the woman’s kitchen in Pickens as he headed toward her bedroom around 3 a.m. Tuesday, Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark said.
“This was a big guy. If she hadn’t had a weapon there’s no telling what would have happened,” Clark said. “I gave her a big hug. I told her how proud I was of her.”
The woman was home alone and had gone through training to get a concealed weapons permit, Clark said.
Bruce McLaughlin Jr., 30, died from a gunshot to the head, Pickens County Coroner Kandy Kelley said.
McLaughlin and a second inmate, Timothy Dill, beat up two guards in an escape they had planned for days, Clark said at a news conference.
Dill was recaptured by deputies without incident about the same time McLaughlin was shot, but the two were going in opposite directions, the sheriff said.
The guards had bruises and one complained of a sore back, but they should recover, Clark said.
Inmates tried to help the guards while they were attacked, Clark said.
McLaughlin and Dill stole the guards’ keys and locked them in a room, but inmates also broke the door down, the sheriff said.
Dill is charged with escape along with two counts of kidnapping, and first-degree assault and battery as well as other charges.
McLaughlin had been in and out of the Pickens County jail about a dozen times on charges ranging from drug possession to assaulting a police officer to shoplifting. He was currently awaiting trial on first-degree burglary and grand larceny charges, according to sheriff’s office records.
Dill was awaiting trial on a criminal sexual conduct with a minor charge.
The sheriff said the homeowner was shaken by the shooting and asked him to help her maintain her privacy. He did not release her name.
Clark said he thinks the shooting is justified, but will forward the case file to prosecutors once the investigation is finished.
“This is the shining example” of why owning and knowing how to use a gun is important, the sheriff said.
“She came out on the good on this end and the other guy, the bad guy, didn’t,” Clark said. KTLAJust because this thread tends towards the gruesome and routinely disparages good guys (gals) with guns, he's a story of when it mattered from the other side. I stand against anyone that wants to belittle armed citizens at home, implying it's better off for them to not own a gun than to have one available for home defense. Three cheers for the woman, and for South Carolina's "Shall Issue" laws. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it twists reality to one specific episode instead of looking at things from a whole. Statistically, you are way more likely to die if you own a gun for self defence. For every one of these episodes there are 100 where people have shot themselves, their kids, their wifes, their parents etc on accident because there is literally no requirements for owning a gun, such a knowing how to handle it safely. Not to mention all the "bad guys with a gun" who wouldn't be able to get one if they were a bit more restricted. I'm not going to pretend there are no cases where owning a gun for self defence is correct. For instance if you have a legit threat against you, or if you live so remotely it could take hours for police to show up. However you should still require some sort of training to be able to own one, if only for your own safety. People need to know where the safety is, how to hold it, where not to point it, trigger discipline, how to properly store it, how to tell the difference between a mass murderer and a random black person, and what the gun laws are. Considering we can't get the police to get that sort of training there is 0 chance of passing it for regular gun owners.
And police departments consistently fire people with proper training, ei veterans who have seen combat, that don’t instantly open fire. Training on the proper use and care of fire arms is undervalued by government, with the exception of some parts of the military.
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On December 06 2018 07:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 06:37 Excludos wrote:On December 06 2018 05:28 Danglars wrote:An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said.
The inmate was still in his orange jail jumpsuit and had grabbed a knife sharpening tool from the woman’s kitchen in Pickens as he headed toward her bedroom around 3 a.m. Tuesday, Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark said.
“This was a big guy. If she hadn’t had a weapon there’s no telling what would have happened,” Clark said. “I gave her a big hug. I told her how proud I was of her.”
The woman was home alone and had gone through training to get a concealed weapons permit, Clark said.
Bruce McLaughlin Jr., 30, died from a gunshot to the head, Pickens County Coroner Kandy Kelley said.
McLaughlin and a second inmate, Timothy Dill, beat up two guards in an escape they had planned for days, Clark said at a news conference.
Dill was recaptured by deputies without incident about the same time McLaughlin was shot, but the two were going in opposite directions, the sheriff said.
The guards had bruises and one complained of a sore back, but they should recover, Clark said.
Inmates tried to help the guards while they were attacked, Clark said.
McLaughlin and Dill stole the guards’ keys and locked them in a room, but inmates also broke the door down, the sheriff said.
Dill is charged with escape along with two counts of kidnapping, and first-degree assault and battery as well as other charges.
McLaughlin had been in and out of the Pickens County jail about a dozen times on charges ranging from drug possession to assaulting a police officer to shoplifting. He was currently awaiting trial on first-degree burglary and grand larceny charges, according to sheriff’s office records.
Dill was awaiting trial on a criminal sexual conduct with a minor charge.
The sheriff said the homeowner was shaken by the shooting and asked him to help her maintain her privacy. He did not release her name.
Clark said he thinks the shooting is justified, but will forward the case file to prosecutors once the investigation is finished.
“This is the shining example” of why owning and knowing how to use a gun is important, the sheriff said.
“She came out on the good on this end and the other guy, the bad guy, didn’t,” Clark said. KTLAJust because this thread tends towards the gruesome and routinely disparages good guys (gals) with guns, he's a story of when it mattered from the other side. I stand against anyone that wants to belittle armed citizens at home, implying it's better off for them to not own a gun than to have one available for home defense. Three cheers for the woman, and for South Carolina's "Shall Issue" laws. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it twists reality to one specific episode instead of looking at things from a whole. Statistically, you are way more likely to die if you own a gun for self defence. For every one of these episodes there are 100 where people have shot themselves, their kids, their wifes, their parents etc on accident because there is literally no requirements for owning a gun, such a knowing how to handle it safely. Not to mention all the "bad guys with a gun" who wouldn't be able to get one if they were a bit more restricted. I'm not going to pretend there are no cases where owning a gun for self defence is correct. For instance if you have a legit threat against you, or if you live so remotely it could take hours for police to show up. However you should still require some sort of training to be able to own one, if only for your own safety. People need to know where the safety is, how to hold it, where not to point it, trigger discipline, how to properly store it, how to tell the difference between a mass murderer and a random black person, and what the gun laws are. Considering we can't get the police to get that sort of training there is 0 chance of passing it for regular gun owners.
That was indeed the joke  But the other ones should definitively be doable. That's the very minimum we should expect tbh. There's also a couple of others, like proper background checks on all sales, including second hand, minimum wait period, and further restrictions on semi automatic rifles (Absolutely no one needs one for home defence or hunting. If you're a competition/sports shooter, you should be a regular at a gun club before being able to buy one).
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How did the inmate manage to escape in the first place, maybe they should address that first. Second, if you can afford a gun, you can probably afford more than a cardboard door(s).
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On December 06 2018 06:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 05:28 Danglars wrote:An inmate who had escaped minutes earlier from a county jail in South Carolina was shot and killed by a woman after he kicked in her back door, the local sheriff said.
The inmate was still in his orange jail jumpsuit and had grabbed a knife sharpening tool from the woman’s kitchen in Pickens as he headed toward her bedroom around 3 a.m. Tuesday, Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark said.
“This was a big guy. If she hadn’t had a weapon there’s no telling what would have happened,” Clark said. “I gave her a big hug. I told her how proud I was of her.”
The woman was home alone and had gone through training to get a concealed weapons permit, Clark said.
Bruce McLaughlin Jr., 30, died from a gunshot to the head, Pickens County Coroner Kandy Kelley said.
McLaughlin and a second inmate, Timothy Dill, beat up two guards in an escape they had planned for days, Clark said at a news conference.
Dill was recaptured by deputies without incident about the same time McLaughlin was shot, but the two were going in opposite directions, the sheriff said.
The guards had bruises and one complained of a sore back, but they should recover, Clark said.
Inmates tried to help the guards while they were attacked, Clark said.
McLaughlin and Dill stole the guards’ keys and locked them in a room, but inmates also broke the door down, the sheriff said.
Dill is charged with escape along with two counts of kidnapping, and first-degree assault and battery as well as other charges.
McLaughlin had been in and out of the Pickens County jail about a dozen times on charges ranging from drug possession to assaulting a police officer to shoplifting. He was currently awaiting trial on first-degree burglary and grand larceny charges, according to sheriff’s office records.
Dill was awaiting trial on a criminal sexual conduct with a minor charge.
The sheriff said the homeowner was shaken by the shooting and asked him to help her maintain her privacy. He did not release her name.
Clark said he thinks the shooting is justified, but will forward the case file to prosecutors once the investigation is finished.
“This is the shining example” of why owning and knowing how to use a gun is important, the sheriff said.
“She came out on the good on this end and the other guy, the bad guy, didn’t,” Clark said. KTLAJust because this thread tends towards the gruesome and routinely disparages good guys (gals) with guns, he's a story of when it mattered from the other side. I stand against anyone that wants to belittle armed citizens at home, implying it's better off for them to not own a gun than to have one available for home defense. Three cheers for the woman, and for South Carolina's "Shall Issue" laws. This doesn’t really happen. There is no disparaging of real people who commit acts of heroism or defend themselves, you simply imply that is the case by putting words into peoples mouths. It is good that the woman was able to defend herself and you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the thread who would say otherwise.
You're just ignorant or being purposefully dense. Posters here have literally reduced good guy with a gun to "More purpose designed killing devices = more safety". And then gone on to many guffaws when one was killed by police after his act of service. You just have a political axe to grind, as usual.
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EPT
