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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
So, really, no. People thinking I can't own a gun isn't a good enough reason. The government cannot take away my 'privilege'
of gun ownership, because it is not a privilege granted by the government. It is an extension of a natural right that the people have not ceded authority to the government to regulate.
So the government can't take away your privilege of owning a random bacteriological weapon or a nuke?
+ your "natural rights" are pretty much bullshit, property is a natural right only because we live in a society that has decided it. And if society changes, these "rights" could vanish/transform. And the healthcare right that is not a right in YOUR society could become one.
To add something at the main subject, are you ( pro gun people) well aware that your "right to own guns" comes with the possibility for every criminal to easily aquire one?
Being pro gun = want all the criminals to have a gun.
If you can't cope with that, you shouldn't be pro gun.
If you can, then i will not finish this sentence because i don't wan't to be banned, but you got the idea.
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On March 01 2012 18:31 falaakr wrote:
Being pro gun = want all the criminals to have a gun.
False. Just incorrect on many levels. Completely ridiculous logic.
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Since one the whole ownership of a gun strikes me as odd I've never looked into laws around the world for it, so honest question:
How are guns and weapons policed in America? If I remember right you need a gun licence yes? What criteria is required for that?
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StarStrider United States. March 01 2012 19:16. Posts 70 PM Profile Quote #
On March 01 2012 18:31 falaakr wrote:
Being pro gun = want all the criminals to have a gun.
False. Just incorrect on many levels. Completely ridiculous logic.
It's not because you don't want it to be true that it isn't.
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On March 01 2012 19:24 falaakr wrote:Show nested quote +StarStrider United States. March 01 2012 19:16. Posts 70 PM Profile Quote #
On March 01 2012 18:31 falaakr wrote:
Being pro gun = want all the criminals to have a gun.
False. Just incorrect on many levels. Completely ridiculous logic. It's not because you don't want it to be true that it isn't.
No, you're right, it's not that. It's because it is flawed logic. So flawed that there is no point in telling you how wrong it is, it is simply so atrocious that there isn't really anything else to say about it.
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On March 01 2012 19:31 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:24 falaakr wrote:StarStrider United States. March 01 2012 19:16. Posts 70 PM Profile Quote #
On March 01 2012 18:31 falaakr wrote:
Being pro gun = want all the criminals to have a gun.
False. Just incorrect on many levels. Completely ridiculous logic. It's not because you don't want it to be true that it isn't. No, you're right, it's not that. It's because it is flawed logic. So flawed that there is no point in telling you how wrong it is, it is simply so atrocious that there isn't really anything else to say about it.
If anyone can have guns, all criminals can have guns. That's basic logic. With strict gun control there are less guns in circulation, only the bigger criminals can get them.
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Canadian here. I've met my fair share of responsible, registered gun owners and enthusiasts in Canada.
I think any law abiding citizen in the US, that's legal age, should be able to own a gun. At the same time, I'm not sure why your country let me shoot and handle a gun at a range five years ago, despite not being an American citizen, or having any kind of background check, or having any experience with a gun of any kind.
Your laws are far too lax.
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Is it that difficult to understand that when guns are very scarce it is almost impossible to get one, even by illegal ways? And at the contrary, when there is a lot of them, it's easy to get one, even if you can't legally have one?
You can watch at Europa and USA for exemples ;-)
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On March 01 2012 19:23 bittman wrote:
Since one the whole ownership of a gun strikes me as odd I've never looked into laws around the world for it, so honest question:
How are guns and weapons policed in America? If I remember right you need a gun licence yes? What criteria is required for that?
Each State has its own gun laws. Some are widely accepted and are acknowledged from one state to another, while other states require you to follow their specific gun laws when entering their state, and won't recognize the laws of other states. And some cities like New York City have complete bans for non-law enforcement (of course, they even ban pepper spray). As far as licenses, some states do require licenses to purchase and own, while others simply require a background check. Concealed carry permits are different though...If you want to be able to carry under your jacket or behind your belt you have to have special permit for that. Some states that is easy to obtain, others only possible if you are in law enforcement.
But the key is not allowing legal purchase of guns to be done by criminals, and whether just a background check or a full licensing, our system protects against that. Obviously if someone with a clean record buys legally with the intent to commit a crime, not much can be done to see that coming and prevent them.
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On March 01 2012 19:34 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:31 StarStrider wrote:On March 01 2012 19:24 falaakr wrote:StarStrider United States. March 01 2012 19:16. Posts 70 PM Profile Quote #
On March 01 2012 18:31 falaakr wrote:
Being pro gun = want all the criminals to have a gun.
False. Just incorrect on many levels. Completely ridiculous logic. It's not because you don't want it to be true that it isn't. No, you're right, it's not that. It's because it is flawed logic. So flawed that there is no point in telling you how wrong it is, it is simply so atrocious that there isn't really anything else to say about it. If anyone can have guns, all criminals can have guns. That's basic logic. With strict gun control there are less guns in circulation, only the bigger criminals can get them.
You make it sound as if getting a gun is as easy as going to McDonald's and grabbing a bag of McDoubles. See my above post where someone asked about gun laws from state to state. There are systems in place to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
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The issue is that you can't regulate a thing that is that widely spread, and that will remains widely spread as long as every one has the right to own a gun.
Thus if you want to regulate, you must ban.
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On March 01 2012 19:39 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:23 bittman wrote:
Since one the whole ownership of a gun strikes me as odd I've never looked into laws around the world for it, so honest question:
How are guns and weapons policed in America? If I remember right you need a gun licence yes? What criteria is required for that? Each State has its own gun laws. Some are widely accepted and are acknowledged from one state to another, while other states require you to follow their specific gun laws when entering their state, and won't recognize the laws of other states. And some cities like New York City have complete bans for non-law enforcement (of course, they even ban pepper spray). As far as licenses, some states do require licenses to purchase and own, while others simply require a background check. Concealed carry permits are different though...If you want to be able to carry under your jacket or behind your belt you have to have special permit for that. Some states that is easy to obtain, others only possible if you are in law enforcement. But the key is not allowing legal purchase of guns to be done by criminals, and whether just a background check or a full licensing, our system protects against that. Obviously if someone with a clean record buys legally with the intent to commit a crime, not much can be done to see that coming and prevent them.
Are guns registered?
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On March 01 2012 19:37 falaakr wrote:
Is it that difficult to understand that when guns are very scarce it is almost impossible to get one, even by illegal ways? And at the contrary, when there is a lot of them, it's easy to get one, even if you can't legally have one?
You can watch at Europa and USA for exemples ;-)
I understand your logic when you put it that way. The way you worded it before was just bad.
What you're saying is that because guns exist in plenty in our society, and because of that, criminals can get their hands on them much easier.
I say that again that hearkens back to responsible gun ownership and having systems in place that prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands, and better policework to track and find criminals in possession. This is the best way to curb this without impeding on the Constitutionally established freedoms of gun ownership in the US. I agree that if the criminal element has carte blanche access to weapons, we need to fix that problem. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater and saying that because guns are common here is the reason X number of them get in the hands of Y number of criminals, and that we should completely ban all firearms.....that flys against everything this country has ever stood for when it comes to personal freedom and protection.
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On March 01 2012 19:45 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:39 StarStrider wrote:On March 01 2012 19:23 bittman wrote:
Since one the whole ownership of a gun strikes me as odd I've never looked into laws around the world for it, so honest question:
How are guns and weapons policed in America? If I remember right you need a gun licence yes? What criteria is required for that? Each State has its own gun laws. Some are widely accepted and are acknowledged from one state to another, while other states require you to follow their specific gun laws when entering their state, and won't recognize the laws of other states. And some cities like New York City have complete bans for non-law enforcement (of course, they even ban pepper spray). As far as licenses, some states do require licenses to purchase and own, while others simply require a background check. Concealed carry permits are different though...If you want to be able to carry under your jacket or behind your belt you have to have special permit for that. Some states that is easy to obtain, others only possible if you are in law enforcement. But the key is not allowing legal purchase of guns to be done by criminals, and whether just a background check or a full licensing, our system protects against that. Obviously if someone with a clean record buys legally with the intent to commit a crime, not much can be done to see that coming and prevent them. Are guns registered?
In some States yes, In others no.
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On March 01 2012 19:53 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:45 Defacer wrote:On March 01 2012 19:39 StarStrider wrote:On March 01 2012 19:23 bittman wrote:
Since one the whole ownership of a gun strikes me as odd I've never looked into laws around the world for it, so honest question:
How are guns and weapons policed in America? If I remember right you need a gun licence yes? What criteria is required for that? Each State has its own gun laws. Some are widely accepted and are acknowledged from one state to another, while other states require you to follow their specific gun laws when entering their state, and won't recognize the laws of other states. And some cities like New York City have complete bans for non-law enforcement (of course, they even ban pepper spray). As far as licenses, some states do require licenses to purchase and own, while others simply require a background check. Concealed carry permits are different though...If you want to be able to carry under your jacket or behind your belt you have to have special permit for that. Some states that is easy to obtain, others only possible if you are in law enforcement. But the key is not allowing legal purchase of guns to be done by criminals, and whether just a background check or a full licensing, our system protects against that. Obviously if someone with a clean record buys legally with the intent to commit a crime, not much can be done to see that coming and prevent them. Are guns registered? In some States yes, In others no.
Ugh. I can understand wanting a gun, but having a gun registry is must be one of the more effective instruments to track the origins of illegal guns, and would deter people from selling guns illegally.
Everyone wants personal freedom, but at what risk to the rest of society? Just my opinion.
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On March 01 2012 19:40 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:34 TanTzoR wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 StarStrider wrote:On March 01 2012 19:24 falaakr wrote:StarStrider United States. March 01 2012 19:16. Posts 70 PM Profile Quote #
On March 01 2012 18:31 falaakr wrote:
Being pro gun = want all the criminals to have a gun.
False. Just incorrect on many levels. Completely ridiculous logic. It's not because you don't want it to be true that it isn't. No, you're right, it's not that. It's because it is flawed logic. So flawed that there is no point in telling you how wrong it is, it is simply so atrocious that there isn't really anything else to say about it. If anyone can have guns, all criminals can have guns. That's basic logic. With strict gun control there are less guns in circulation, only the bigger criminals can get them. You make it sound as if getting a gun is as easy as going to McDonald's and grabbing a bag of McDoubles. See my above post where someone asked about gun laws from state to state. There are systems in place to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
Except the ones who never get caught. And even tho, if you're a criminal, spent time in jail, have a police record as long as my arm, and want a gun, no problem ! Your innocent neightbour as one to protect himself. Just steal it when he's at work !
Easy weapons for citizen implies easy weapons for criminals. Seems logic to me at least
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On March 01 2012 19:45 falaakr wrote:
The issue is that you can't regulate a thing that is that widely spread, and that will remains widely spread as long as every one has the right to own a gun.
Thus if you want to regulate, you must ban.
Nah, not at all. Regulation is very simple actually. Every gun is serialized by the manufacturer. And gun shops have specific licensing. The underground market will always exist yes, and you can't regulate that. But you can keep guns from circulating to it from shops. The amount of guns that are traveling from gun shops to the black market today is negligible. It is mostly used guns sold from private owner to private owner that find their way there, or guns that are stolen. And again, those problems go back to personal responsibility and education of gun owners.
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I see a lot of people citing that the reason they feel people should have the right to own a gun is to protect themselves from criminals who may also have a gun.
Wouldn't guns being unavailable to the general public make it much harder for the criminal to get the guns in the first place?
I rarely hear of shootings here in Australia, you get the odd gangland shooting every once in a while but that's it.
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On March 01 2012 19:57 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:53 StarStrider wrote:On March 01 2012 19:45 Defacer wrote:On March 01 2012 19:39 StarStrider wrote:On March 01 2012 19:23 bittman wrote:
Since one the whole ownership of a gun strikes me as odd I've never looked into laws around the world for it, so honest question:
How are guns and weapons policed in America? If I remember right you need a gun licence yes? What criteria is required for that? Each State has its own gun laws. Some are widely accepted and are acknowledged from one state to another, while other states require you to follow their specific gun laws when entering their state, and won't recognize the laws of other states. And some cities like New York City have complete bans for non-law enforcement (of course, they even ban pepper spray). As far as licenses, some states do require licenses to purchase and own, while others simply require a background check. Concealed carry permits are different though...If you want to be able to carry under your jacket or behind your belt you have to have special permit for that. Some states that is easy to obtain, others only possible if you are in law enforcement. But the key is not allowing legal purchase of guns to be done by criminals, and whether just a background check or a full licensing, our system protects against that. Obviously if someone with a clean record buys legally with the intent to commit a crime, not much can be done to see that coming and prevent them. Are guns registered? In some States yes, In others no. Ugh. I can understand wanting a gun, but having a gun registry is must be one of the more effective instruments to track the origins of illegal guns, and would deter people from selling guns illegally. Everyone wants personal freedom, but at what risk to the rest of society? Just my opinion.
Having a gun registry is also the quickest way to have a SWAT team show up to have it confiscated if the government ever deems that gun inappropriate or illegal. This is why proponents of gun freedoms like the NRA fight lawmakers at every turn on this. State laws have passed as I said, for more liberal states like California. But Federal law for a national gun registration will probably never pass under our current system of government.
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EPT
