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On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away.
I live in a European country where I am allowed to legally own a pistol (after completing a set of exams, and of course only with a clean criminal record) and I believe that is the best way. While it prevents most people from owning possibly extremely dangerous and unnecessary weapons (SMGs, assault rifles), it still leaves us able to defend ourselves.
I'd also like to say that if you're an adult person with a possibility to own a firearm, yet you don't, you're either incredibly naive or just downright irresponsible. The world we live in is a dangerous place.
Have you ever used said pistol to defend yourself?
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Never heard or read of any cilivian stopping a robbery/gunfight/massacre in any western country so the aregument to use it as self-defense is invalid. I can not come up with one western country in which carrying a gun would make your live more safe.
I dont care if people own pistols and/or hunting guns as long as these guns are only given after numerous check-ups by the police. Owning a machine gun or a shotgun makes no sense at all.
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On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away.
u see? this thought process is one of the problems. jesus, normal ppl DO NOT need weapons to defend themselves, cuz they DO NOT have to defend themselves at all ever (yes, exceptions prove the rule)
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On December 15 2012 23:22 3Form wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away.
I live in a European country where I am allowed to legally own a pistol (after completing a set of exams, and of course only with a clean criminal record) and I believe that is the best way. While it prevents most people from owning possibly extremely dangerous and unnecessary weapons (SMGs, assault rifles), it still leaves us able to defend ourselves.
I'd also like to say that if you're an adult person with a possibility to own a firearm, yet you don't, you're either incredibly naive or just downright irresponsible. The world we live in is a dangerous place. Have you ever used said pistol to defend yourself?
No and I don't see how it's relevant. I hope I will never have to, and I know that it's quite likely that I won't be able to use it effectively.
However I know people who have and saved their lives by doing so. That is all I need to know, really.
If you're about to tell me I'm being paranoid - maybe I am, but I know the possibility of getting in a life threatening situation is real, and so do you. Sure, the chances are slim, but I'd rather be prepared.
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On December 15 2012 23:24 havox_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away. u see? this thought process is one of the problems. jesus, normal ppl DO NOT need weapons to defend themselves, cuz they DO NOT have to defend themselves at all ever (yes, exceptions prove the rule)
What the hell is wrong with you? Have you never heard of anyone getting murdered, robbed, raped? Most of them probably had the exact same mentality as you before it happened. If you believe you're safe, go ahead, but stop saying others need to feel the same way.
I know a lot of normal people who have indeed had to defend themselves. Some used their fists, some used something else, however if they didn't, they'd be either dead or potentially crippled by now. Two of them are Germans as well, so your "they don't need it" statement is incredibly ignorant. Or maybe you're just too sheltered to realise that while the risks are almost non-existent, they still exist.
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On December 15 2012 21:31 IMoperator wrote:
I'm curious, I'm for strict gun control but how are we supposed to start it now with so many people owning guns? Especially if we decided to completely ban them, how is the government going to know who has them and how are they going to take them away?
Obviously the government won't be able to know who has a gun and who hasn't, which means that some people would still own guns, even though they were illegal. However, it would be way harder for people who does not already own a gun to get one, and as more and more guns get confiscated, the total amount of guns would gradually decrease.
I do agree that it could be a problem that a lot of people would refuse to hand in their guns, but allowing people to own a gun so they can defend themselves against their neighbour who already has a gun, is a very short term solution to a problem that does not look like it is going to disappear.
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On December 15 2012 23:08 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 21:31 IMoperator wrote:
I'm curious, I'm for strict gun control but how are we supposed to start it now with so many people owning guns? Especially if we decided to completely ban them, how is the government going to know who has them and how are they going to take them away? Draconian sentencing for possession of illegal firearms. Make is so that if a robbery gets you 2 months in prison, and armed robbery gets you 10 years. Merely having a illegal gun in your home gets you 2 years. Then offer to buy back guns from civilians, so they get a little cash back from turning them over. The vast majority of guns will be turned in.
I extremly like and support your idea.
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On December 15 2012 23:32 Grumpy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:08 hzflank wrote:On December 15 2012 21:31 IMoperator wrote:
I'm curious, I'm for strict gun control but how are we supposed to start it now with so many people owning guns? Especially if we decided to completely ban them, how is the government going to know who has them and how are they going to take them away? Draconian sentencing for possession of illegal firearms. Make is so that if a robbery gets you 2 months in prison, and armed robbery gets you 10 years. Merely having a illegal gun in your home gets you 2 years. Then offer to buy back guns from civilians, so they get a little cash back from turning them over. The vast majority of guns will be turned in. I extremly like and support your idea.
They actually did this in Australia a fair while ago it worked really well apparently, at least well enough that we have legit almost no gun crime where I live
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On December 15 2012 23:27 negon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:22 3Form wrote:On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away.
I live in a European country where I am allowed to legally own a pistol (after completing a set of exams, and of course only with a clean criminal record) and I believe that is the best way. While it prevents most people from owning possibly extremely dangerous and unnecessary weapons (SMGs, assault rifles), it still leaves us able to defend ourselves.
I'd also like to say that if you're an adult person with a possibility to own a firearm, yet you don't, you're either incredibly naive or just downright irresponsible. The world we live in is a dangerous place. Have you ever used said pistol to defend yourself? No and I don't see how it's relevant. I hope I will never have to, and I know that it's quite likely that I won't be able to use it effectively. However I know people who have and saved their lives by doing so. That is all I need to know, really. If you're about to tell me I'm being paranoid - maybe I am, but I know the possibility of getting in a life threatening situation is real, and so do you. Sure, the chances are slim, but I'd rather be prepared.
that would be all fine and dandy ,except guns for *protection* (i believe) kills more people than it save,from crazy husband who went balistic to children that found the gun closet unlocked for some reason ect.The odds of all the way someone might need that gun to kill someone is so much higher than the risk of needing it to save your life.hence why it has more chance to be used for the qwrong reasons
edit: this does not apply if you live in a really rough places but those are exception, in wich you get a gun lol....or if you are ballsy a abseball bat 
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Norway25712 Posts
On December 15 2012 23:44 Diminisherqc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:27 negon wrote:On December 15 2012 23:22 3Form wrote:On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away.
I live in a European country where I am allowed to legally own a pistol (after completing a set of exams, and of course only with a clean criminal record) and I believe that is the best way. While it prevents most people from owning possibly extremely dangerous and unnecessary weapons (SMGs, assault rifles), it still leaves us able to defend ourselves.
I'd also like to say that if you're an adult person with a possibility to own a firearm, yet you don't, you're either incredibly naive or just downright irresponsible. The world we live in is a dangerous place. Have you ever used said pistol to defend yourself? No and I don't see how it's relevant. I hope I will never have to, and I know that it's quite likely that I won't be able to use it effectively. However I know people who have and saved their lives by doing so. That is all I need to know, really. If you're about to tell me I'm being paranoid - maybe I am, but I know the possibility of getting in a life threatening situation is real, and so do you. Sure, the chances are slim, but I'd rather be prepared. that would be all fine and dandy ,except guns for *protection* actually kills more people than it save,from crazy husband who went balistic to children that found the gun closet unlocked for some reason ect.The odds of all the way someone might need that gun to kill someone is so much higher than the risk of needing it to save your life.hence why it has more chance to be used for the qwrong reasons Though I think you're proibably right, you shouldn't be posting something like this without citing some sources. There should be data for this out there, but you need to find it and share it. If not, your argument is void.
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On December 15 2012 23:42 Geefking wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:32 Grumpy wrote:On December 15 2012 23:08 hzflank wrote:On December 15 2012 21:31 IMoperator wrote:
I'm curious, I'm for strict gun control but how are we supposed to start it now with so many people owning guns? Especially if we decided to completely ban them, how is the government going to know who has them and how are they going to take them away? Draconian sentencing for possession of illegal firearms. Make is so that if a robbery gets you 2 months in prison, and armed robbery gets you 10 years. Merely having a illegal gun in your home gets you 2 years. Then offer to buy back guns from civilians, so they get a little cash back from turning them over. The vast majority of guns will be turned in. I extremly like and support your idea. They actually did this in Australia a fair while ago it worked really well apparently, at least well enough that we have legit almost no gun crime where I live
I don't know how it would work in the US where gun ownership is a disproportionately important cultural thing, granted I don't know what it was like in Australia. Anyway, there probably are tens of millions of illegal guns in the US, I would be surprised if people got rid of their illegal firearms if it carried a 2 year sentence - they would just tuck them somewhere in their house. I know that's what I would do if one of my possessions suddenly became illegal or "more illegal.
As for harsher prison sentences for armed robberies, well research shows that harsher punishment has little effect because naturally people think they won't get caught. In this case I'm guessing people may calm down, or do more regular olde' robberies, but then we're just paying to put people in prisons longer at no real beneficial effect except guns possibly get hidden away and we don't have to hear about them on local news.
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On December 15 2012 23:30 negon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:24 havox_ wrote:On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away. u see? this thought process is one of the problems. jesus, normal ppl DO NOT need weapons to defend themselves, cuz they DO NOT have to defend themselves at all ever (yes, exceptions prove the rule) What the hell is wrong with you? Have you never heard of anyone getting murdered, robbed, raped? Most of them probably had the exact same mentality as you before it happened. If you believe you're safe, go ahead, but stop saying others need to feel the same way. I know a lot of normal people who have indeed had to defend themselves. Some used their fists, some used something else, however if they didn't, they'd be either dead or potentially crippled by now. Two of them are Germans as well, so your "they don't need it" statement is incredibly ignorant. Or maybe you're just too sheltered to realise that while the risks are almost non-existent, they still exist.
I am a pretty big guy, never been in a fist fight but lets say I have plenty of experience with that.
If Stacy, 12 years old, wanted to kill me, it would be rather easy for her to do so, as long as I didn't know she was coming. Needle injection, running me over with a car, shooting me with a gun. All simple things to do and capable of bringing down even heavily guarded people at the right time. You don't need money, connections or any training to do either of these things either. Like the joker says in that batman movie: Gasoline and explosives are cheap.
Stacy will get caught doing it, sure, but that doesn't help me.
My point is, you can be the most badass navy seal commando kungfu blackbelt sniper elite there is. That won't help you from everyday crime unless you like living in a bunker and never sleeping. If you can fend a guy off with your fists, he wasn't carrying a weapon and wasn't planning on doing anything to you specifically. You might save yourself from having ribs cracked or a nose broken, but really, bringing your fists out might just as well cause more harm than it otherwise would have.
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I don't think the forefathers wrote the 2nd with modern technology, idiots and psychos in mind. Ban or don't ban guns I don't give a rat's ass, just make it so anyone who wants a legal firearm go through many many many many procedures, proof of use, psychology tests, whatever. Just make it hard enough.
People have violent tendancies in the first place, them finding tools easily just leads to this type up event. Ask yourselves, are you really surprised? I would be more surprised if he managed to kill that many with a knife or sword.
Hey I like guns, in video games, movies, etc. I even own an airsoft pistol to shoot my friends (kinda like playing with paintball guns) but I don't trust the system that lets guns fall into the wrong individuals hands.
Like one wise person already posted, increase the penalty for illegal firearms, better yet if a legal firearm is used in any way illegally, the owner must also face a level of punishment. If we increase the risks and responsibilities involved with owning guns, it just wouldn't be worth it one day to own one for most people.
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On December 15 2012 23:51 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:42 Geefking wrote:On December 15 2012 23:32 Grumpy wrote:On December 15 2012 23:08 hzflank wrote:On December 15 2012 21:31 IMoperator wrote:
I'm curious, I'm for strict gun control but how are we supposed to start it now with so many people owning guns? Especially if we decided to completely ban them, how is the government going to know who has them and how are they going to take them away? Draconian sentencing for possession of illegal firearms. Make is so that if a robbery gets you 2 months in prison, and armed robbery gets you 10 years. Merely having a illegal gun in your home gets you 2 years. Then offer to buy back guns from civilians, so they get a little cash back from turning them over. The vast majority of guns will be turned in. I extremly like and support your idea. They actually did this in Australia a fair while ago it worked really well apparently, at least well enough that we have legit almost no gun crime where I live I don't know how it would work in the US where gun ownership is a disproportionately important cultural thing, granted I don't know what it was like in Australia. Anyway, there probably are tens of millions of illegal guns in the US, I would be surprised if people got rid of their illegal firearms if it carried a 2 year sentence - they would just tuck them somewhere in their house. I know that's what I would do if one of my possessions suddenly became illegal or "more illegal. As for harsher prison sentences for armed robberies, well research shows that harsher punishment has little effect because naturally people think they won't get caught. In this case I'm guessing people may calm down, or do more regular olde' robberies, but then we're just paying to put people in prisons longer at no real beneficial effect except guns possibly get hidden away and we don't have to hear about them on local news.
Do you have children? If you risk 2 years in jail for the sake of keeping a gun, what would happen to your children?
When a wife finds out her husband is cheating, and decides to get revenge by telling the police that her husband is keeping illegal weapons, the husband goes to jail. At this point, do their neighbours turn their guns in for a small reward, or do they keep them and hope that the same does not happen to them?
It is logistically possible to remove guns from a society. Removing guns from a society will reduce (but not remove) murder rates.
The US will not drastically change it's gun laws. We all know it wont and the NRA is dumb to worry that it might. But this is not due to logistics. This is not due preservation of life, etc etc. This is due to American culture. It's the land of the free, but freedom isn't free.
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On December 16 2012 00:13 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:51 Djzapz wrote:On December 15 2012 23:42 Geefking wrote:On December 15 2012 23:32 Grumpy wrote:On December 15 2012 23:08 hzflank wrote:On December 15 2012 21:31 IMoperator wrote:
I'm curious, I'm for strict gun control but how are we supposed to start it now with so many people owning guns? Especially if we decided to completely ban them, how is the government going to know who has them and how are they going to take them away? Draconian sentencing for possession of illegal firearms. Make is so that if a robbery gets you 2 months in prison, and armed robbery gets you 10 years. Merely having a illegal gun in your home gets you 2 years. Then offer to buy back guns from civilians, so they get a little cash back from turning them over. The vast majority of guns will be turned in. I extremly like and support your idea. They actually did this in Australia a fair while ago it worked really well apparently, at least well enough that we have legit almost no gun crime where I live I don't know how it would work in the US where gun ownership is a disproportionately important cultural thing, granted I don't know what it was like in Australia. Anyway, there probably are tens of millions of illegal guns in the US, I would be surprised if people got rid of their illegal firearms if it carried a 2 year sentence - they would just tuck them somewhere in their house. I know that's what I would do if one of my possessions suddenly became illegal or "more illegal. As for harsher prison sentences for armed robberies, well research shows that harsher punishment has little effect because naturally people think they won't get caught. In this case I'm guessing people may calm down, or do more regular olde' robberies, but then we're just paying to put people in prisons longer at no real beneficial effect except guns possibly get hidden away and we don't have to hear about them on local news. Do you have children? If you risk 2 years in jail for the sake of keeping a gun, what would happen to your children? When a wife finds out her husband is cheating, and decides to get revenge by telling the police that her husband is keeping illegal weapons, the husband goes to jail. At this point, do their neighbours turn their guns in for a small reward, or do they keep them and hope that the same does not happen to them? It is logistically possible to remove guns from a society. Removing guns from a society will reduce (but not remove) murder rates. The US will not drastically change it's gun laws. We all know it wont and the NRA is dumb to worry that it might. But this is not due to logistics. This is not due preservation of life, etc etc. This is due to American culture. It's the land of the free, but freedom isn't free.
I don't have children and you do make good points, but I'm not the kind of person to own illegal firearms or any firearms for that matter - but don't expect everyone to be swayed by the logical arguments that you're making. Plenty of people are willing to let their children take a fall "if they happen to get caught". You say it's logistically possible to remove guns from society, but that's extremely optimistic imo. Insanely so. There are plenty of guns tucked in safes and nobody will ever report them.
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On December 15 2012 23:44 Diminisherqc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:27 negon wrote:On December 15 2012 23:22 3Form wrote:On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away.
I live in a European country where I am allowed to legally own a pistol (after completing a set of exams, and of course only with a clean criminal record) and I believe that is the best way. While it prevents most people from owning possibly extremely dangerous and unnecessary weapons (SMGs, assault rifles), it still leaves us able to defend ourselves.
I'd also like to say that if you're an adult person with a possibility to own a firearm, yet you don't, you're either incredibly naive or just downright irresponsible. The world we live in is a dangerous place. Have you ever used said pistol to defend yourself? No and I don't see how it's relevant. I hope I will never have to, and I know that it's quite likely that I won't be able to use it effectively. However I know people who have and saved their lives by doing so. That is all I need to know, really. If you're about to tell me I'm being paranoid - maybe I am, but I know the possibility of getting in a life threatening situation is real, and so do you. Sure, the chances are slim, but I'd rather be prepared. that would be all fine and dandy ,except guns for *protection* (i believe) kills more people than it save,from crazy husband who went balistic to children that found the gun closet unlocked for some reason ect.The odds of all the way someone might need that gun to kill someone is so much higher than the risk of needing it to save your life.hence why it has more chance to be used for the qwrong reasons edit: this does not apply if you live in a really rough places but those are exception, in wich you get a gun lol....or if you are ballsy a abseball bat
Well, why should that concern me? Personally I have a lot of friends who are rather enthusiastic about weapons yet nothing like that has ever happened to them and neither it will to me, because unless you are an idiot, things like that just don't happen. I'm not going to give my kids or anyone else even the slightest chance to get their hands on my pistol, trust me.
To put it simply, because idiots kill themselves, doesn't mean I should have my method of defence from me, does it. Statistics mean nothing to me, my safety does.
On December 15 2012 23:53 Fenris420 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 23:30 negon wrote:On December 15 2012 23:24 havox_ wrote:On December 15 2012 23:18 negon wrote:
200 pages already, I doubt I can really add anything, but anyway, if you believe in complete ban of weapons for regular people, you are an idiot. Criminals and crazy people will be able to obtain weapons anyway and the only thing you're doing is taking a normal person's method of defense away. u see? this thought process is one of the problems. jesus, normal ppl DO NOT need weapons to defend themselves, cuz they DO NOT have to defend themselves at all ever (yes, exceptions prove the rule) What the hell is wrong with you? Have you never heard of anyone getting murdered, robbed, raped? Most of them probably had the exact same mentality as you before it happened. If you believe you're safe, go ahead, but stop saying others need to feel the same way. I know a lot of normal people who have indeed had to defend themselves. Some used their fists, some used something else, however if they didn't, they'd be either dead or potentially crippled by now. Two of them are Germans as well, so your "they don't need it" statement is incredibly ignorant. Or maybe you're just too sheltered to realise that while the risks are almost non-existent, they still exist. I am a pretty big guy, never been in a fist fight but lets say I have plenty of experience with that. If Stacy, 12 years old, wanted to kill me, it would be rather easy for her to do so, as long as I didn't know she was coming. Needle injection, running me over with a car, shooting me with a gun. All simple things to do and capable of bringing down even heavily guarded people at the right time. You don't need money, connections or any training to do either of these things either. Like the joker says in that batman movie: Gasoline and explosives are cheap. Stacy will get caught doing it, sure, but that doesn't help me. My point is, you can be the most badass navy seal commando kungfu blackbelt sniper elite there is. That won't help you from everyday crime unless you like living in a bunker and never sleeping. If you can fend a guy off with your fists, he wasn't carrying a weapon and wasn't planning on doing anything to you specifically. You might save yourself from having ribs cracked or a nose broken, but really, bringing your fists out might just as well cause more harm than it otherwise would have.
I don't quite see your point. If somebody wanted to kill me, specifically me, then sure, a weapon wouldn't help (then again, it would be better and still possibly helpful to own it in such situation as well). However I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about what you call "everyday crime". I have to disagree, as like I've already stated, I know people to whom carrying a weapon has indeed helped to preserve their health when facing "everyday crime".
The whole "let the criminal does whatever he wants and hope for the best" is just something I never really understood. To me, my health and hell, even my possessions are important enough to use everything I can to defend them. Even if there's a slight chance it's not going to help.
Anyway, not really going to check this thread anymore, I'd probably end up raging and calling people idiots since my viewpoints on gun control are simply results of what I consider to be common sense in a potentially dangerous world. If you want to discuss this in a civil manner, feel free to shoot a PM my way.
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Since this is a starcraft website, I thought of an example that has some starcaft relevence. Earlier this year, SK_MC had his wallet stolen in Paris (I think it was at a subway station?). He ran after the thief, subdued him and retrieved his wallet.
If that happened to me in Paris, I would also not hesitate to defend my property. If I had my wallet stolen in New York, I would not try to retrieve it, regardless of whether or not I was armed. In Paris, you can be almost certain that the thief is not armed. In New York, there is a very good chance that the thief would be armed.
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HEY, ALL YOU GUN ADVOCATES, ONE QUESTION:
TELL ME [b]ONE[/b] GOOD THING GUNS HAVE DONE FOR AMERICAN SOCIETY, ONE! AND IF YOU FIND AN EXAMPLE, I'LL SHOW YOU TEN THAT EACH OUTWEIGH THAT ONE BY FAR!
User was temp banned for this post.
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Sometimes i really wonder how American still dont see any correlation between owning guns and shootings in school and stuff like that. Strangely enough, those things happen regularly in the US and never happens in any other western country. I REALLY WONDER WHY.
Seriously.
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EPT
