|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not?
I do not consider guns to be effective for home defense in stable societies such as the one I live in. I also do not envision such a sign drawing any real attention in my neighborhood. This holds true as much for the near totally gun-free urban Australia as for the area of the US I have lived in.
I don't see any particular reason to put a sign up, but if someone asked me to for any decent reason I would do so.
|
On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not?
Yeah because I'm a liar and I'm totally sitting in my living room with a 12 gauge all night err night.
But really, in this country (or more specifically, in my town, which is very gun/gang heavy,) I certainly would not. I have a regular security system and multiple locks on my doors and whatnot, but there's no reason for me to put my personal views on gun control out to simply endanger me. I'm not exactly going to get anything positive out of that in Oklahoma.
Then again I live with my parents, who happen to have a hand cannon in their room, so I don't exactly sleep scared.
|
Can't we just chalk up this thread to: most Europeans are literally unable conceive the gun situation in America. That's the vibe I'm getting because anytime you say anything about how criminals have and will always have weapons regardless of any present or future laws they ignore said fact and repeat some other misconception.
|
On July 23 2012 03:22 sereniity wrote:
My line goes at having a handgun, and even that in my opinion is over the top; I'm really confused how people like you can support legality of automatic weapons, drum magazines and so on, after all you're just saying that you need the weapons for self-defence, in case of a break in or something similiar? I doubt you need a shotgun or an automatic rifle with a drum on it for that.
The justifications are:
Pistols: concealable, portable, good for mobile defense on foot in public, front door defense, automobile defense.
Shotgun: wide spray for fast draw, easy to hold and aim, good for home defense, around doorways and down hallways, etc.
Assault rifles (it's just a genre name guys! there isn't alot of difference between these and hunting rifles): designed for distance shooting with accuracy (back porch to driveway, front door across large yard to street). higher capacity for handling multiple assailants. Primarily purchased not as a primary defense weapon but shelved or stockpiled in case of tyrrany, societal collapse, martial law, social unrest (riots), gang neighborhood pillaging, or invasion by foreign combatants (this is where drum mags come in.) Note: some people also hunt with assault rifles because they like certain attachments or a certain stopping power. Also preferred for handling bears for instance.
Automatic weapons: no reasonable practical use or self defense use. Unjustifiable outside of military or swat team use.
|
On July 23 2012 03:38 KingLol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:20 hunts wrote:
I don't get how people can think that by making guns illegal it will somehow PROTECT the law abiding citizens, from the criminals that would have guns anyway due to black market. Let me ask you something. Drugs are illegal, do you think that no one uses drugs? Do you think not being allowed to buy heroin or other drugs stops the druggies from doing it, or just stops normal law abiding citizens? All that banning guns would do is make crime go up because criminals would now have complete reign knowing every law abiding citizen is unarmed. I live in a country where owning a gun is effectively banned and I feel far safer than I would if both I and the criminals were given guns. Only a tiny TINY minority of criminals in gangs and organised crime have any chance of getting guns & ammunition in this country and due to the difficulty in obtaining them, their use is limited because it attracts a lot of attention.
This too. I feel very safe walking at night in Beijing, far more safer than I felt walking in Oakland where I KNOW there are people walking with guns, and I definitely don't have and cannot afford to carry a gun in my pocket at all times.
|
On July 23 2012 03:32 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:31 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? How is this question even related to the argument...? This is completely retarded. Either way, yes I would. But I still don't see how this makes any sense rofl... You people seem very paranoid. It makes complete sense. Someone who a criminal will know not to have a gun, is much more likely to be robbed. Exactly why if you outlaw guns, crime will go UP as now all law abiding citizens will be unarmed and criminals will continue to have easy access to guns.
Just because I'm against gun ownership doesn't mean I want to advertise that I'm an easy target for a robbery.
|
On July 23 2012 03:31 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? How is this question even related to the argument...? This is completely retarded. Either way, yes I would. But I still don't see how this makes any sense rofl... You people seem very paranoid.
You might not be able to relate to the rammifications of doing this in the States. That's ok.
|
On July 23 2012 03:44 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:32 hunts wrote:On July 23 2012 03:31 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? How is this question even related to the argument...? This is completely retarded. Either way, yes I would. But I still don't see how this makes any sense rofl... You people seem very paranoid. It makes complete sense. Someone who a criminal will know not to have a gun, is much more likely to be robbed. Exactly why if you outlaw guns, crime will go UP as now all law abiding citizens will be unarmed and criminals will continue to have easy access to guns. Just because I'm against gun ownership doesn't mean I want to advertise that I'm an easy target for a robbery.
So you admit that the knowledge that you don't own a gun makes you a more likely target?
|
On July 23 2012 03:36 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? I mean where I live it's pretty safe I can probably sleep unlocked anyways. What I'm most afraid is going to a batman movie and got shot by someone not really a criminal And it's sort of a strange thought that America, with it's tip top spendings in military can't invest enough law-enforcement to protect its people so that they don't have to buy a guy to protect themselves.
But you do see the point right? That the knowledge of a lack of guns is easy pickings for a malicious criminal?
I wish I could enjoy living in an area that is as safe as yours. I would at minimum always lock my doors though, even out in the country.
|
On July 23 2012 03:39 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:22 sereniity wrote:
My line goes at having a handgun, and even that in my opinion is over the top; I'm really confused how people like you can support legality of automatic weapons, drum magazines and so on, after all you're just saying that you need the weapons for self-defence, in case of a break in or something similiar? I doubt you need a shotgun or an automatic rifle with a drum on it for that. The justifications are: Pistols: concealable, portable, good for mobile defense on foot in public, front door defense, automobile defense. Shotgun: wide spray for fast draw, easy to hold and aim, good for home defense, around doorways and down hallways, etc. Assault rifles (it's just a genre name guys! there isn't alot of difference between these and hunting rifles): designed for distance shooting with accuracy (back porch to driveway, front door across large yard to street). higher capacity for handling multiple assailants. Primarily purchased not as a primary defense weapon but shelved or stockpiled in case of tyrrany, societal collapse, martial law, social unrest (riots), gang neighborhood pillaging, or invasion by foreign combatants (this is where drum mags come in.) Note: some people also hunt with assault rifles because they like certain attachments or a certain stopping power. Also preferred for handling bears for instance. Automatic weapons: no reasonable practical use or self defense use. Unjustifiable outside of military or swat team use.
So you say when I go to school I should shove a pistol in my pocket
When I sleep I should sleep next to a shotgun
And when I park I should have a rifile in my driveway
If I had to live like that I think i'll just shoot myself
|
On July 23 2012 03:45 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:44 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:32 hunts wrote:On July 23 2012 03:31 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? How is this question even related to the argument...? This is completely retarded. Either way, yes I would. But I still don't see how this makes any sense rofl... You people seem very paranoid. It makes complete sense. Someone who a criminal will know not to have a gun, is much more likely to be robbed. Exactly why if you outlaw guns, crime will go UP as now all law abiding citizens will be unarmed and criminals will continue to have easy access to guns. Just because I'm against gun ownership doesn't mean I want to advertise that I'm an easy target for a robbery. So you admit that the knowledge that you don't own a gun makes you a more likely target?
Holy shit isn't that obvious? Just as a "Beware of the dog" sign lessens your chance of having a burglar break into your house/apartment.
Do you have a sign that says "I have a gun, I will blow your head off if you come in here"? If you don't, then the burglar is just as likely to break into your house as he is likely to break into mine. Even if you do have a sign that says something like that, I'm certain alot of people who own guns don't.
It's pretty obvious by reading your posts that you're paranoid, you think that it's necessary to have a handgun for one occasion, a shotgun for another and an assault rifle for a third. How is that even healthy? As the previous poster said, if I had to live like that I'd consider doing something about it... maybe move to a safer place?
|
To answer the original question: no, I don't think ordinary citizens should own the right to have guns. There are a small number of crazy ppl like this mass murderer in Colorado, but it still doesn't change it from being a tragic event. We also never hear enough about the killings in communities plagued with poverty; this is where the real mass murder plays out everyday with gang violence and youth that have gone wild and have easier access to guns. Also under reported are the killings done after years of domestic abuse and are made infinitely more easy when one partner has a gun.
I can't give in to the argument that "we need guns to protect us from the madness of others," because that madness was only enabled because of the ease of accessibility of firearms. As an American, my thoughts on this were heavily influenced when I lived in Europe for 8 years. There guns are very hard to get and most crimes that occur there are done without a fire arm. I don't have an actual statistic or anything it was just my impression by living there for so long; you would hear about the occasional murder with a gun but it was a rarity compared to the US.
I'm also a realist and I know that in this country and in this age your average American would prefer to allow gay marriage and abortion ten times over than to completely prohibit firearms. So thus, the killings will continue; innocent people's life will continue to end shorter than it should. All in the name of this madness for the love of guns. I know Europeans love to brag how much better they are than Americans in different issues; most of the times they can be full of horse shit, but when it comes to gun control and gun violence, they definitely have a one up on us.
|
On July 23 2012 03:47 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:36 evanthebouncy! wrote:On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? I mean where I live it's pretty safe I can probably sleep unlocked anyways. What I'm most afraid is going to a batman movie and got shot by someone not really a criminal And it's sort of a strange thought that America, with it's tip top spendings in military can't invest enough law-enforcement to protect its people so that they don't have to buy a guy to protect themselves. But you do see the point right? That the knowledge of a lack of guns is easy pickings for a malicious criminal?
Yeah i mean ofc I get that.
But I feel owning a gun doesn't help that much either
Here is my biggest concern: How the hell am I gonna be next to a gun at all times? I mean jesus I'd have to carry it all the time with me!
And all that "gun can stop crime" business. How come nobody shot the crazy guy at virginia tech nor at the batman movie? The fact is that people really don't want to carry a gun at all time but only crazy people and criminals want to carry a gun at some specific times. Just allowing everyone to own gun is not enough. You'd have to also make sure the people really have the gun and have the guts to use them at the right time. I don't think that's likely, what do you think? School's gotta give out lessons on "how to carry a gun to a theatre and how to shoot the crazy gun-man" or something like that.
The fact is an average person cannot be trusted with a gun. But more, i think the people who want to buy gun are kind of nuts already so they definitely cannot be trusted with a gun. All the sane people I feel really don't want to own or deal with a gun, so they probably can't protect themselves anyways.
|
The argument people use against gun control is, 'Criminals don't follow the law, they will get weapons regardless!' - this is ignoring all gun crime that is done with lawfully purchased and registered weapons. Didn't Holmes from this Colorado shooting use guns he legally purchased?
|
On July 23 2012 03:45 StarStrider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:44 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:32 hunts wrote:On July 23 2012 03:31 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? How is this question even related to the argument...? This is completely retarded. Either way, yes I would. But I still don't see how this makes any sense rofl... You people seem very paranoid. It makes complete sense. Someone who a criminal will know not to have a gun, is much more likely to be robbed. Exactly why if you outlaw guns, crime will go UP as now all law abiding citizens will be unarmed and criminals will continue to have easy access to guns. Just because I'm against gun ownership doesn't mean I want to advertise that I'm an easy target for a robbery. So you admit that the knowledge that you don't own a gun makes you a more likely target?
Your house is more likely to be targeted when you are not in it, whether or not you have a gun. Thieves generally try to avoid confronting you, whether or not you have a gun.
|
On July 23 2012 03:48 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:39 StarStrider wrote:On July 23 2012 03:22 sereniity wrote:
My line goes at having a handgun, and even that in my opinion is over the top; I'm really confused how people like you can support legality of automatic weapons, drum magazines and so on, after all you're just saying that you need the weapons for self-defence, in case of a break in or something similiar? I doubt you need a shotgun or an automatic rifle with a drum on it for that. The justifications are: Pistols: concealable, portable, good for mobile defense on foot in public, front door defense, automobile defense. Shotgun: wide spray for fast draw, easy to hold and aim, good for home defense, around doorways and down hallways, etc. Assault rifles (it's just a genre name guys! there isn't alot of difference between these and hunting rifles): designed for distance shooting with accuracy (back porch to driveway, front door across large yard to street). higher capacity for handling multiple assailants. Primarily purchased not as a primary defense weapon but shelved or stockpiled in case of tyrrany, societal collapse, martial law, social unrest (riots), gang neighborhood pillaging, or invasion by foreign combatants (this is where drum mags come in.) Note: some people also hunt with assault rifles because they like certain attachments or a certain stopping power. Also preferred for handling bears for instance. Automatic weapons: no reasonable practical use or self defense use. Unjustifiable outside of military or swat team use. So you say when I go to school I should shove a pistol in my pocket When I sleep I should sleep next to a shotgun And when I park I should have a rifile in my driveway If I had to live like that I think i'll just shoot myself
LOL
Nah, I don't say do anything. I'm just giving you the info about the uses of each style of weapon.
That's the great thing about America. If you so desire, you can next to a shotgun behind a security fence, or if you're happy go lucky you can leave your front door and car unlocked every night.
Even though you can't understand or relate to why people would feel better with these safeties in place, you shouldn't question their option to have them if it makes them more secure.
I promise though after enough interaction with armed thug life you'd start to not be so flippant about security. Mostly its cops or former cops who live the life you describe, because they have been there every night and know what could be lurking just around the block.
|
On July 23 2012 03:55 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 03:45 StarStrider wrote:On July 23 2012 03:44 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:32 hunts wrote:On July 23 2012 03:31 sereniity wrote:On July 23 2012 03:25 StarStrider wrote:
Anyone who is against gun ownership:
Would you be willing to display on your front door: We are proud to keep our home gun free.
Why or why not? How is this question even related to the argument...? This is completely retarded. Either way, yes I would. But I still don't see how this makes any sense rofl... You people seem very paranoid. It makes complete sense. Someone who a criminal will know not to have a gun, is much more likely to be robbed. Exactly why if you outlaw guns, crime will go UP as now all law abiding citizens will be unarmed and criminals will continue to have easy access to guns. Just because I'm against gun ownership doesn't mean I want to advertise that I'm an easy target for a robbery. So you admit that the knowledge that you don't own a gun makes you a more likely target? Your house is more likely to be targeted when you are not in it, whether or not you have a gun. Thieves generally try to avoid confronting you, whether or not you have a gun.
Very true. But it doesn't negate the fact that any malicious person is much more confident in the face of people he knows are gunless.
|
Handguns should be illegal, as they serve no purpose other than to kill somebody else. The idea that someone will effectively defend themselves against someone else who has a gun is ridiculous. For every story where someone fights off a criminal with a gun there are dozens where the person just got themselves killed.
You can protect your home just as well with a rifle or a shotgun as you can with a pistol. This way the argument that criminals will be less worried if they know the house they are breaking into is gun-free is baseless. Also, you can't as easily hold up a store because people could see you coming with a shotgun or rifle.
Guns don't make you safer when you're getting mugged, they just force the criminal to either kill you or die.
|
On July 23 2012 03:52 Salv wrote:
The argument people use against gun control is, 'Criminals don't follow the law, they will get weapons regardless!' - this is ignoring all gun crime that is done with lawfully purchased and registered weapons. Didn't Holmes from this Colorado shooting use guns he legally purchased?
It's allowed to ignore that point because it's a theoretical issue. At this moment, you can't ignore the fact that in plenty of states you can acquire high-end weapons with minimal restriction, but the idea that if guns are not allowed at all (depending on what you mean by gun control), only criminals would acquire them is correct, because in order to get them you would be a criminal. The only point to showing current gun violence statistics and stories is to show what is currently happening, as we can only speculate what would happen in a completely controlled place.
Pretty much: we know for a fact that there is a large amount of gun-related violent crime, but we don't know for a fact what would happen if law-abiding citizens were unable to acquire firefarms.
I guess my post doesn't make much of a point, but neither did yours :p
|
On July 23 2012 03:52 Salv wrote:
The argument people use against gun control is, 'Criminals don't follow the law, they will get weapons regardless!' - this is ignoring all gun crime that is done with lawfully purchased and registered weapons. Didn't Holmes from this Colorado shooting use guns he legally purchased?
For every 'legally obtained gun' crime, there is another one where they got it illegally. It doesn't matter. The point is, if someone wants to do what he can did, they can do it, whether guns are easy or hard to obtain. Admittedly it is much easier if guns are legal for common men, assuming they don't have background check issues. Doesn't change the fact that if they want to bad enough they will. It's just a matter of the amount of effort they are willing to put in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
