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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 18:56 GMT
#2121
GG rain. I was wrong it was 2-0 not 2-1
We Live to Die
Goozen
Profile Joined February 2012
Israel701 Posts
July 21 2012 18:59 GMT
#2122
On July 22 2012 03:49 SayGen wrote:
I fully support the American 2nd admendment and think Gun control is stupid.
How can a people stand up agaisnt an oppressive goverment witohut weapons?
You need weapons to win.

Also check ur facts.
Do you know why Japan never atempted a major land invasion of the USA in WWII.
Japan was scared of the gun owning Americas. 300million people with guns is a pretty scary idea.

I own several guns and anyone stupid enough to break into my home is dead.
If the Goverment ever tries to oppress me or my family, I can fihgt back.
If my country ever gets invaded, I can help fihgt back.

You need weapons to fight. Period.

Somethings are worth fighting for. Somethings are worth dieing for.


This is whats so dangerous about the US mindset in some people the whole: "If the Goverment ever tries to oppress me or my family, I can fihgt back.
If my country ever gets invaded, I can help fihgt back."
This isnt going to happen, and owning guns wont prevent it.
While i dont think that guns need to be outlawed, i think it need to be alot harder to own them. At the end of they day the main issue is education, but it shouldnt be as easy as it is to own guns.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 19:07 GMT
#2123

This is whats so dangerous about the US mindset in some people the whole: "If the Goverment ever tries to oppress me or my family, I can fihgt back.
If my country ever gets invaded, I can help fihgt back."
This isnt going to happen, and owning guns wont prevent it.
While i dont think that guns need to be outlawed, i think it need to be alot harder to own them. At the end of they day the main issue is education, but it shouldnt be as easy as it is to own guns.


Lol you talk about education and yet based on your comments I can freely say you have never read a history book.
Civil war was won with GUNS (US civil war) We beat the European army with guns! no one with a pitchfork was going to charge into a red coat line.

Also you have no idea what guerilla warfare is. Again pick up a history book.

Small hit and runs over long distances do massive damage. (see German invasion of Russia and how the German forces paid for EVERY inch in EVERY town and the Russian civilian population didn't even have alot of guns or supplies and still did massive damage.)

Supply lines are venerable to civilian armed forces.

Sure civilians will never beat a real army head to head but they can force troops away from the main battle lines by threatening supply lines, and disorder in occupied cities.

Read a history book before you mention the word education ever again please.
We Live to Die
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 19:09 GMT
#2124
and how dare you say this isn't ever going to happen?
I don't have enough time in a day to tlak about how many times a regime has gain'd control and begun to oppresse its people.

No one is immume from oppression. We must be ever vigilant. We must be ready willing and prepared.

We Live to Die
schaf
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1326 Posts
July 21 2012 19:13 GMT
#2125
On July 22 2012 04:07 SayGen wrote:
Show nested quote +

This is whats so dangerous about the US mindset in some people the whole: "If the Goverment ever tries to oppress me or my family, I can fihgt back.
If my country ever gets invaded, I can help fihgt back."
This isnt going to happen, and owning guns wont prevent it.
While i dont think that guns need to be outlawed, i think it need to be alot harder to own them. At the end of they day the main issue is education, but it shouldnt be as easy as it is to own guns.


Lol you talk about education and yet based on your comments I can freely say you have never read a history book.
Civil war was won with GUNS (US civil war) We beat the European army with guns! no one with a pitchfork was going to charge into a red coat line.

Also you have no idea what guerilla warfare is. Again pick up a history book.

Small hit and runs over long distances do massive damage. (see German invasion of Russia and how the German forces paid for EVERY inch in EVERY town and the Russian civilian population didn't even have alot of guns or supplies and still did massive damage.)

Supply lines are venerable to civilian armed forces.

Sure civilians will never beat a real army head to head but they can force troops away from the main battle lines by threatening supply lines, and disorder in occupied cities.

Read a history book before you mention the word education ever again please.


The thing is, you will not be invaded. it doesn"t matter that you are "safe" against it while paying the price for it with lives (meaning people getting shot).
Axiom wins more than it loses. Most viewers don't. - <3 TB
LessThanIII
Profile Joined May 2012
9 Posts
July 21 2012 19:17 GMT
#2126
Yep those guns will help so much when the M1a1 and the AC130 come in if for any reason the government want to take you out, heck I bet they can do it with a hellfire with a remote control. But when the tanks and carrier shows up I do agree we need marines like you to fight against them make sure you bring lots of your friends also :D
Zooper31
Profile Joined May 2009
United States5711 Posts
July 21 2012 19:20 GMT
#2127
On July 22 2012 02:18 schaf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 23:46 The KY wrote:
On July 21 2012 23:41 Archybaldie wrote:
On July 21 2012 23:36 Ezod wrote:
On July 21 2012 23:30 Rassy wrote:
So what are the reasons to keep the guns?

Self-defence, culture/tradition, and the fact that bearing arms is a "god given right" in the constitution.


+ Show Spoiler +
"The Second Amendment to the Constitution of The United States reads as follows:

'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

Now the issue here it seems is largely what is meant by 'Militia' but before I address that consider this. When the amendments were written and passed by congress they and the constitution they amended were intended to be read in conjunction with and to provide the means to defend both the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

The drafters of the Declaration of Independence had experience of the use of a standing army to oppress the people.
A standing army is a tool of government and can be used by a government to enforce its rule in defiance of the wishes of the people.

A standing army tends to be distanced from the people and its members are often not from the locality in which they are stationed. They do not have much of a connection with the locals making their use against the local population much easier.

The drafters of the second amendment were fully aware of this. They had seen standing armies in Europe used against their own people when those people objected to government oppression or indifference.

Their intention was that there would be no standing army in their new country to prevent a future government using such an army against its own people.

The defence of the country was to be carried out by the armed citizens who would form a Militia as and when needed for that purpose. And should a government become oppressive to the people, to provide the means for the people to remove the government and replace it.

So despite arguments to the contrary from some. The term 'Militia' does not mean the National Guard nor does it mean the regular military forces which are under the direct control of the federal government.

The meaning of 'Militia' intended by the drafters of the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of The United States, and The Bill of Rights, of which the Second Amendment is a part is, literally, THE PEOPLE. The individuals who make up the population of the United States.

When the Second Amendment is read, as it should be read, in conjunction with the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution of The United States. The meaning of the word 'Militia' intended by the founders of the United States is clear and unambiguous.

Brian Thwaites LL.B (Hons)

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_the_founding_fathers_include_the_Second_Amendment#ixzz21HOtuNoP"



With the strength of modern military, would a milita even be viable as military technology increases? Also if the militia is "obselete" via modern day advantages. Would that make that law antiquated and obselete?


Second these queries I would like to hear the answer. Honestly I don't think in the event of an oppressive government in the US, the citizenry could muster up and organize enough force to fight the military. Maybe in a few areas they could gain control. For a bit.


It would make the fight messy enough though so that no soldier would ever want to fight this war


Army is volunteer based, so essentially you have civilians fighting civilians if the government all of a sudden became a dictatorship. The army isn't going to start killing the masses. Or in the off chance they did want to fight civilians for some wierd reason they would domolish the people with ease with tanks and airplances and shit.

I don't see fighting back against the government a feasible reason to own guns.
Asato ma sad gamaya, tamaso ma jyotir gamaya, mrtyor mamrtam gamaya
Holy_AT
Profile Joined July 2010
Austria978 Posts
July 21 2012 19:26 GMT
#2128
Guns will do nothing against a modern mechanizes army, the only reson the US is loosing this many people in the middle east it is because they are nice and let them. The US could annihilate the whole civilian population in these countries if they want to, so guns will not help if the US Army would be determined to opress someone or wipe someone out.

The only thing most people do when they dont agree with the government is bomb their buildings and go on a killing spree and that certainly doesnt justify owning guns.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 19:27 GMT
#2129
1) How can you say we will not get invaded. Please explain. Cause I'm pretty sure Iran has said both us and Israel should be wiped off the face of the planet. People HATE americans. HATE US. Not everone beleivesin LOAC and RoEs or the Gevena Convention.

2) The Military will not attack civilians with full force because Officers will defect and probably in-fight with any one in the military who tries to carry out unlawful orders. American Officers are taught in War College that they are respsonsible for defending the people not the goverment. As a member of the US armed forced you cna bet your last dollar I will never shoot a group of people who are trying to overthrow the government cause it is an American constitutional right to do so. You are ALLOWED to voerthrow the goverment. READ A HISTORY BOOK before you type please.

3) I am not a Marine.

4) American armed forces do not have 300 million shells/ammo rounds/misslies.

5) Every American state has it's own Guard force which answers ot the GOVENER not to the FEDERAL goverment.

Please do not tlak about what you do not understand.

We Live to Die
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 19:28 GMT
#2130
PS: The beat the M1A1 read: The Anarchist Cookbook.
GG tank GG
We Live to Die
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
July 21 2012 19:29 GMT
#2131
omg, so many people here do not understand how the military works at all. for one, there isn't just an "army" and that's it (state national guards anyone?). for another, our officers are almost universally college-educated (meaning they aren't brainless noobs who follow whatever orders they are given). nevermind the cost of engaging in a prolonged war with the people who pay for you. nevermind the very real possibility of foreign intervention if it actually came to infighting between sections of the military and the citizens (and other sections of the military; it's not like no one in the military would side with the citizens). nevermind the ease of assassination at that point...

tbh it is such a ridiculous scenario that it should never be mentioned ever again, by either side. the US government will never suddenly up and decide that it's gonna commit all-out war on the civilian population. and if we propose some ridiculous scenario in which they do, and then presuppose that the entirety of the military sides with the government (lol) than i will counter with the equally ridiculous scenario that space-aliens will invade and side with the civilians. this same argument goes for foreign invasion. we don't have the right to own guns for those reasons (the military magically deciding to kill us all or the Chinese or whoever coming in guns blazing). we have the right to own guns because there is no reason not to own guns.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
Goozen
Profile Joined February 2012
Israel701 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 19:30:50
July 21 2012 19:30 GMT
#2132
On July 22 2012 04:07 SayGen wrote:
Show nested quote +

This is whats so dangerous about the US mindset in some people the whole: "If the Goverment ever tries to oppress me or my family, I can fihgt back.
If my country ever gets invaded, I can help fihgt back."
This isnt going to happen, and owning guns wont prevent it.
While i dont think that guns need to be outlawed, i think it need to be alot harder to own them. At the end of they day the main issue is education, but it shouldnt be as easy as it is to own guns.


Lol you talk about education and yet based on your comments I can freely say you have never read a history book.
Civil war was won with GUNS (US civil war) We beat the European army with guns! no one with a pitchfork was going to charge into a red coat line.

Also you have no idea what guerilla warfare is. Again pick up a history book.

Small hit and runs over long distances do massive damage. (see German invasion of Russia and how the German forces paid for EVERY inch in EVERY town and the Russian civilian population didn't even have alot of guns or supplies and still did massive damage.)

Supply lines are venerable to civilian armed forces.

Sure civilians will never beat a real army head to head but they can force troops away from the main battle lines by threatening supply lines, and disorder in occupied cities.

Read a history book before you mention the word education ever again please.


Alot of time has passed since then, and as i said the whole Us vs the Govt is absurd, dangerous and problematic mindset to have.
And the US invaded wont happen, no army in the world is big enough. And having guns wont help you if you get nuked.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 19:30 GMT
#2133
On July 22 2012 04:26 Holy_AT wrote:
Guns will do nothing against a modern mechanizes army, the only reson the US is loosing this many people in the middle east it is because they are nice and let them. The US could annihilate the whole civilian population in these countries if they want to, so guns will not help if the US Army would be determined to opress someone or wipe someone out.

The only thing most people do when they dont agree with the government is bomb their buildings and go on a killing spree and that certainly doesnt justify owning guns.


You have no clue.... You really think I (again I am a member of the Active Duty armed forces) would obey or allow anyone in my unit to attack a US civilian force? Not a chance. I would defect, or sabatage the efforts of the opporessors.
We Live to Die
Corelion
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden28 Posts
July 21 2012 19:31 GMT
#2134
SayGen, are you for real? o.O
TommyP
Profile Joined December 2011
United States6231 Posts
July 21 2012 19:31 GMT
#2135
No. There are to many crazy people in the world.
#TheOneTrueDong
Kahlgar
Profile Joined June 2011
411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 19:32:43
July 21 2012 19:32 GMT
#2136
On July 22 2012 03:49 SayGen wrote:
I fully support the American 2nd admendment and think Gun control is stupid.
How can a people stand up agaisnt an oppressive goverment witohut weapons?
You need weapons to win.

Also check ur facts.
Do you know why Japan never atempted a major land invasion of the USA in WWII.
Japan was scared of the gun owning Americas. 300million people with guns is a pretty scary idea.

I own several guns and anyone stupid enough to break into my home is dead.
If the Goverment ever tries to oppress me or my family, I can fihgt back.
If my country ever gets invaded, I can help fihgt back.

You need weapons to fight. Period.

Somethings are worth fighting for. Somethings are worth dieing for.


The idea that Japan was scared of invading the US because of the gun carrying laws is hilarious. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the US having a much better navy and infinitely more production capablities.

And believe it or not there were not 300m people in the USA at the times.

I guess it's only fitting that such an ignorant post features a "check ur facts" advice.
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
July 21 2012 19:33 GMT
#2137
On July 22 2012 04:29 sc2superfan101 wrote:
omg, so many people here do not understand how the military works at all. for one, there isn't just an "army" and that's it (state national guards anyone?). for another, our officers are almost universally college-educated (meaning they aren't brainless noobs who follow whatever orders they are given). nevermind the cost of engaging in a prolonged war with the people who pay for you. nevermind the very real possibility of foreign intervention if it actually came to infighting between sections of the military and the citizens (and other sections of the military; it's not like no one in the military would side with the citizens). nevermind the ease of assassination at that point...

tbh it is such a ridiculous scenario that it should never be mentioned ever again, by either side. the US government will never suddenly up and decide that it's gonna commit all-out war on the civilian population. and if we propose some ridiculous scenario in which they do, and then presuppose that the entirety of the military sides with the government (lol) than i will counter with the equally ridiculous scenario that space-aliens will invade and side with the civilians. this same argument goes for foreign invasion. we don't have the right to own guns for those reasons (the military magically deciding to kill us all or the Chinese or whoever coming in guns blazing). we have the right to own guns because there is no reason not to own guns.


No reason not to own guns? Let me quote you some statistics
"In one year, guns murdered 35 in Australia, 39 in England and Wales, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada and 9,484 in the United States"
Yep. No reason not to own guns. Not...at...all.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 19:33 GMT
#2138
On July 22 2012 04:31 Corelion wrote:
SayGen, are you for real? o.O


I never joke about defending my country. I swore an oath of honor and duty to defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies--FORGEIN and DOMESTIC.

Any threat to freedom must be elimiated with the deadliest of force.
We Live to Die
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
July 21 2012 19:36 GMT
#2139
On July 22 2012 04:27 SayGen wrote:
1) How can you say we will not get invaded. Please explain. Cause I'm pretty sure Iran has said both us and Israel should be wiped off the face of the planet. People HATE americans. HATE US. Not everone beleivesin LOAC and RoEs or the Gevena Convention.



A few 4-star generals have said that if Iran is America's greatest enemy, than America has nothing to worry about. They are least a decade or more from successfully making a nuclear bomb, have no launch capability, and have a small, poorly trained, army with an outdated arsenal.

All this includes crippling sanctions on their country by the US and a long list of allies.

SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
July 21 2012 19:36 GMT
#2140
On July 22 2012 04:32 Kahlgar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 03:49 SayGen wrote:
I fully support the American 2nd admendment and think Gun control is stupid.
How can a people stand up agaisnt an oppressive goverment witohut weapons?
You need weapons to win.

Also check ur facts.
Do you know why Japan never atempted a major land invasion of the USA in WWII.
Japan was scared of the gun owning Americas. 300million people with guns is a pretty scary idea.

I own several guns and anyone stupid enough to break into my home is dead.
If the Goverment ever tries to oppress me or my family, I can fihgt back.
If my country ever gets invaded, I can help fihgt back.

You need weapons to fight. Period.

Somethings are worth fighting for. Somethings are worth dieing for.


The idea that Japan was scared of invading the US because of the gun carrying laws is hilarious. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the US having a much better navy and infinitely more production capablities.

And believe it or not there were not 300m people in the USA at the times.

I guess it's only fitting that such an ignorant post features a "check ur facts" advice.


1) It was found in post war documents among Japan military brass files. Check ur facts.
2) Ur right we didn't have 300m at the time that is the current number, I was mistaken. though the fact we had more civilians then the entire standing army of the Japanese forces is still important even if I was wrong on the 300m figure. (again my mistake).
3) At least I can admit when I'm wrong, and work to fix the record. Almost everything you said was dead wrong- so I state again, read a history book and check ur facts.
We Live to Die
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