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On September 20 2011 21:23 lariat wrote:
They're different books. WOT is more high fantasy and "overall grand struggle" than ISOIAF which is about people struggling for power. You don't see people wrecking on LotR even though it possesses the same qualities you attribute WoT. The language is honestly better than ISOIAF: better imagery, stronger vocabulary, etc. Martin writes in vernacular which I find pretty suitable for what he's doing but is overall less impressive than what Jordan accomplishes.
The later books in wheel of time are pretty damn crap but the same can be said for a song of ice and fire
1. I don't wreck on LoTR because it was the progenitor series that lead to the current ones so its flaws are mostly excusable and don't really detract from the quality of the series. To me, WOT's flaws are much less excusable because its peer, ASOIAF, doesn't have those flaws (WOT's first book only predates ASOIAF's first book by 6 years and they have been concurrent for 15 years).
2. WoT's vocabulary did not seem noticeably better, but I find Martin's imagery to be superior to Jordan's. Agree to disagree.
3. "what Jordan accomplishes" this the crux of what I am asking: what did Jordan accomplish? To me it didn't seem like he accomplished anything besides writing a long, mediocre series.
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On September 20 2011 21:29 DisaFear wrote:I liked the later WoT books (9 onwards), thought the two before that were bad I gave up on ASOIAF after book 3.5, probably should go and re-read Eagerly awaiting the ending to this series  EDIT: @craque The first book is like that, the rest are better
The problem is that the first book left me so disillusioned that I'm not sure I want to risk reading any more books.
The things that bothered me most was the extravagant use of plot armor and the one dimensionality of the characters. Can you tell me if either of those gets any better? I'm willing to give it another go if those get toned down.
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On September 20 2011 21:44 bigjenk wrote:
Good thing Jordan's peers all credit him with revitalizing the genre, and grrm personally credits him with inspiring his writing style.
I heard this too and it confuses the hell out of me. GRRM's style and Jordan's style don't seem to be similar on any level
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i read those books up to 32 (in germany they might have been split in a different way).
the beginning was really boring (IMO) but it started to become better with every book.
there are a few things that are still a bit annoying like you have to check from time to time who the heck a person is, because its storyline pops out pretty randomly.
next thing, some characters have these little ticks they to over and over, and you getting tired of reading it. like X is pulling her hair, Y is clubbing some baby-seals, Z looks angry.
from my point, its getting really aweseom up from book 20 (german countig) and sometimes i was almost forced to skip a chapter because i wanted to know whats happing to another person.
tl:dr dont give up read all of them and feel happy you had the stamina to go on. its worth it
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I just want to throw out there that i love this series and, so far have read it two times working on the third, and is anyone else really excited about the last book coming out in 2012?
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On September 20 2011 22:01 craque wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 21:29 DisaFear wrote:I liked the later WoT books (9 onwards), thought the two before that were bad I gave up on ASOIAF after book 3.5, probably should go and re-read Eagerly awaiting the ending to this series EDIT: @craque The first book is like that, the rest are better The problem is that the first book left me so disillusioned that I'm not sure I want to risk reading any more books. The things that bothered me most was the extravagant use of plot armor and the one dimensionality of the characters. Can you tell me if either of those gets any better? I'm willing to give it another go if those get toned down.
Plot armor is unfortunately a big weakness in WoT. Though he does actually explain it to an extent within the story through concepts such as the pattern and Ta'veren. But that is of course nothing more than trying to explain away a definite weakness of the plot. Young untrained good-guys constantly take out infinitely better trained bad-guys most often because the bad-guys are overconfident or fall to a simple trick. How did the Forsaken survive the War of the Shadow anyway if they are that incompetent?
I don't feel like the characters were that one-dimensional, even in the first book. Especially the younger characters will develop a lot through the books.
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I enjoyed WoT a lot even though as mentioned the tempo of the story slows down a lot, but Brandon Sanderson has done a really nice job with the last 2 books, cant wait for the last one.
BrandSanderson:
"Granted, that's a deadline I set for myself, so it can move if I feel it needs to. I'd still like to hit it. #AMoL progress bar moved to 61%" (few days ago on twitter)
@Talin15 i think i saw march 2012 mentioned somewhere, cant remember where though.
Also reading A Song of Ice and Fire which i am enjoying a lot.
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On September 20 2011 22:11 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:01 craque wrote:On September 20 2011 21:29 DisaFear wrote:I liked the later WoT books (9 onwards), thought the two before that were bad I gave up on ASOIAF after book 3.5, probably should go and re-read Eagerly awaiting the ending to this series EDIT: @craque The first book is like that, the rest are better The problem is that the first book left me so disillusioned that I'm not sure I want to risk reading any more books. The things that bothered me most was the extravagant use of plot armor and the one dimensionality of the characters. Can you tell me if either of those gets any better? I'm willing to give it another go if those get toned down. Plot armor is unfortunately a big weakness in WoT. Though he does actually explain it to an extent within the story through concepts such as the pattern and Ta'veren. But that is of course nothing more than trying to explain away a definite weakness of the plot. Young untrained good-guys constantly take out infinitely better trained bad-guys most often because the bad-guys are overconfident or fall to a simple trick. How did the Forsaken survive the War of the Shadow anyway if they are that incompetent? I don't feel like the characters were that one-dimensional, even in the first book. Especially the younger characters will develop a lot through the books.
The characters are mostly not 1D at all imo, with a few notable exceptions. I have to say if you didn't like the first book you may struggle, I thoroughly enjoyed it, though two is extremely good too imo so might be worth a try.
The strength of WoT is in it's environments and it's grand story telling, and despite overuse of "plot armour" it does manage to create a great build up of suspense (except for like 7, 8, 10). Honestly I think they surpass ASOIAF in that regard, Tar Valon and the whole story around that is just immense imo.
Kind offtopic answer but these books really are good, plot armour is rarely breached, characters are for the most part well fleshed out a long the way, especially many of the major ones, some are just kind of set in their ways but I don't think everyone needs to go on some kind of epic transitional journey. At the end of the day though, book one is about the start of a journey for a bunch of naive essentially children, and I think it portrays that pretty damn well, so I struggle to recommend more if you can have such major grips with what is such a great book.
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Hello ,could somebody introduce a bit these books? ,i wonder,is it just boy becomes man ,smashes bad guys,artifacts and prohecy clishe or is it different?and i hope no dragons included.(i hate dragons)
so far it looks like 11k pages long history of one world.that scares me,so far i most enjoyed warhammer and fantasy parody(hehe)
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On September 21 2011 06:26 whitelly wrote:
Hello ,could somebody introduce a bit these books? ,i wonder,is it just boy becomes man ,smashes bad guys,artifacts and prohecy clishe or is it different?and i hope no dragons included.(i hate dragons)
so far it looks like 11k pages long history of one world.that scares me,so far i most enjoyed warhammer and fantasy parody(hehe)
The way I'd describe WoT would be like this:
I've become to see the WoT as everything Robert Jordan knew about the world (or perhaps more specifically, about life). About people and their interactions, about war, drugs, politics, social norms and structures, the mind and its inner workings, power, love, grief, hatred, life, death, jealousy, slavery, beauty. Its absolutely incredible how much there is to learn from these books.
People have differing opinions on the strength of the writing itself. Personally I found the tales of the many of the main characters to be very compelling, and followed along with interest as the characters all changed, made mistakes, learned and developed. The main character's descent into madness I find particularly fascinating because all the decisions he makes, and the conclusions he comes to are all immensely understandable yet are ultimately what brings about his downfall. Jordan could have killed the characters off more often, but their stories weren't complete yet, so he couldn't. The series does suffer a little for it when, as a reader, you're left without quite the same feelings of excitement and so on.
So it's the story of a entire world, telling the story of our entire world. All the people in it (the lens more on some than others), all the things that happen over the course of a few eventful years. I think the lack of this perspective is what gives people their dislike of some of the middle books in particular. At the same time, the wider world unfolds very ambiently through reports you hear, and minor characters experiences and you're able to take as much of an interest, read as deeply as you choose to.
Its funny, reading ASOIAF was a bit of a disappointment to me. Perhaps I came in with too high expectations, but I kept expecting to learn, to be provided with metaphors and structures as wondrous as those in the WoT. Instead, it's a series about backstabbing, sex, maneuvering, war and suchlike. It all makes for a ripping good yarn, but I don't put down the book feeling enlightened.
EDIT: No flying lizards.
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lagmaster
United States374 Posts
WoT is a coming of age story like most fantasy stories are. One of the advantages to the series being so long, is that you can really see the growth of the characters over time. A character that might start out as immature, naive, lacking self confidence etc. can really grow into his/her own.
Watching these characters grow and develop, from farm kids to heroes, is really what most youngsters (i started the series when I was 15) also desire.
ASOIAF removes that ideal fantasy element where everything seems to go right for the heroes. The reason I stopped reading ASOIAF is because I found it hard to really root for any of the characters. In a setting like WoT, I could pick from any of these heroic individuals and could aspire to be like them. In ASOIAF, as soon as I start liking a character he/she will either die or there will be some terrible terrible truth truth revealed about them that makes you doubt everything you thought about them before. In the 2 books I read, I grew to dislike just about every character and it felt like I could no longer root for anyone.
In Neil Gaimann books or a graphic novel like Watchmen (both carry this depressing tone throughout the story) you can still find characters/heroes to root for. ASOIAF is both depressing and filled with heartless bastards.
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That's why I've stopped reading these long ass books series, you risk dying of natural causes before all books have been release. And I'm in my 20's. -_-
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bleh I finally want to finish this series !!!. I knew it 8 years ago or sth when I started Wheel of Time. I actually thought damn I bet the guy dies before he finishes it and yeah he did.. I just want to know the end about Mat Cauthon the last book must have at least 1/3 about him ;:D
On November 24 2011 17:24 nihlon wrote:
That's why I've stopped reading these long ass books series, you risk dying of natural causes before all books have been release. And I'm in my 20's. -_-
lol yeah thats what I usually think too. but I started to read Game of Thrones ... and by now I certainly should know it better I started to read Brandon Sanderson Stormlight Archive too .... bleeeh I cant wait for the second book
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dam thats shitty. I was just thinking about a couple of books im waiting on. And this is definitely top of the list. Sucks to b/c I just read the other 2 to get a quick reminder of everything before the march release. Now I'll probably have to do it again
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This is quite stale news... I think Sanderson mentioned the delay of the final book last year even before the release of Towers of Midnight.
@nihlon, This is the final book in the Wheel of Time series. I think you're referring to George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones.
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I really like wheel of time, my joint favourite fantasy world, with Raymond E Feist's. Jordan's writing is better than Feist's as well in my opinion, but what holds him back is that some of the books are just bad. The first one i found pretty hard to understand, and books 7 through 9 seemed not to move at all. That said, the characters are fantastic, always believable and you get to know them so well as they develop.
Brandon Sanderson has injected much needed movement into the last two and i can't wait for the final book!
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I am reading Eye of the World!
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Delayed by half a year? *fist hits wall*
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On November 24 2011 18:34 undyinglight wrote:
I am reading Eye of the World!
If you aren't sold too well on that book i really recommend trying the second one because the first one does have some weaknesses partly because it was originally designed as a stand alone book as opposed to the first of the series and then it was molded slightly.
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EPT
