EPTWorld War II History Thread - Page 6
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
Romantic
United States1844 Posts
| ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:21 Romantic wrote: Germany was never in a strategically viable position. Not Hitler as a leader wouldn't have helped on the magnitude necessary. You have no idea dude. If Hitler never invaded Russia, the Western Front would never have stood a chance. They barely broke through in D-Day/the ensuing days in France against, what was the figure again, 20% of Germany's forces and almost none of its Luftwaffe and Armor divisions? Honestly, if Germany just didn't break the treaty with Russia, we would not have stood a remote chance of defeating them. There were multiple times during the ensuing days after Normandy that higher ups were afraid of being pushed back into the sea essentially because of how many logistical and intelligence errors were made Hitler's stupidity and their completely silly chain of command is what fucked them over, not their strategic position. Like I said on the first page, there was a huge Panzer division waiting ready to go in to Normandy at 6AM on D-Day that could have effectively stopped the invasion in its tracks, or at least make it EXTREMELY hard. Yet Hitler decided to sleep in, and only he could give such an order, and they weren't sent out until 3PM. Not to overblow that moment as a "war changing" one, but I wanted to make the point -- Germany had every opportunity to win and you'd be very ignorant to think otherwise. There are literally thousands of stories like this out there where miscommunications, messups in chain of command, etc. caused a massive failure in German war efforts. The timing was also bad, as someone said on the 2nd(?) page. Some of their most powerful weapons came at the very end of the war that could have outright won it for them if they had them from the beginning. | ||
|
forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:27 Fruscainte wrote: You have no idea dude. If Hitler never invaded Russia, the Western Front would never have stood a chance. They barely broke through in D-Day/the ensuing days in France against, what was the figure again, 20% of Germany's forces and almost none of its Luftwaffe and Armor divisions? Honestly, if Germany just didn't break the treaty with Russia, we would not have stood a remote chance of defeating them. Hitler's stupidity and their completely silly chain of command is what fucked them over, not their strategic position. The timing was also bad, as someone said on the 2nd(?) page. Some of their most powerful weapons came at the very end of the war that could have outright won it for them if they had them from the beginning. If if if if. That's all I hear. Saying that Germany and the USSR could co-exist is naive as saying the USSR and USA could co-exist for any extended period. Just IMO that treaty was going to be broken no matter what. | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:30 forgottendreams wrote: If if if if. That's all I hear. Saying that Germany and the USSR could co-exist is naive as saying the USSR and USA could co-exist for any extended period. Just IMO that treaty was going to be broken no matter what. Who said coexist? I said if he waited. He attacked far too soon. He should have waited until Britain was under his boot before breaking that treaty. Of course the breaking was inevitable, both sides knew such. However, it was broken far too early in Germany's disfavor. And of course it's "if if if", that's the point of hypothetical's  Nonetheless, the Pacific Front was far more interesting than the European one in my opinion. | ||
|
kornetka
Poland129 Posts
When Germany broke the alliance with Soviet Union in 1941 and attacked them, Germans were making reports how the civilians greets their army. And the reports states, that at the begining people were very happy that they are being freed from the Soviets. This attitude was changing quickly, but it shows that, indeed, east european contries hated Stalin and Soviet Union. I would say that the attraction to Germany was caused by USSR. | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
 | ||
|
HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On December 28 2011 08:03 SilentchiLL wrote: There are several things which troubled me when I read this post but I'll try to focus on the 2 mainreasons here. 1. They could've concentrated their forces in the west and actually everywhere else where they needed them instead of trying to conquer russia and forcing themselve to bring their men to the east 2. The main reason(and pretty much the only reason...) why hitler decided to attack the russians was no rational decission, russia was an ally of germany(Stalin didn't believe it at first when he was told that hitler decided to attack russia), the mainmotive was founded in his views on the races and a certain degree of paranoia. A major motivator for Hitler in attacking Russia was that he was afraid that he would die before the job was done (ie. the world was at his feet). Combined with the fact that he didn't feel they were making enough progress with Britain and not perceiving them as an offensive threat. I feel your reasons are more general in why he would ever want to attack Russia. To us, it's obvious that he would have attacked (or perhaps been attacked by) Russia at some point, due to different views on both race (slavs being some sort of subhuman) and forms of government. | ||
|
Jebusrocks
Canada62 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:27 Fruscainte wrote: You have no idea dude. If Hitler never invaded Russia, the Western Front would never have stood a chance. They barely broke through in D-Day/the ensuing days in France against, what was the figure again, 20% of Germany's forces and almost none of its Luftwaffe and Armor divisions? Honestly, if Germany just didn't break the treaty with Russia, we would not have stood a remote chance of defeating them. There were multiple times during the ensuing days after Normandy that higher ups were afraid of being pushed back into the sea essentially because of how many logistical and intelligence errors were made Hitler's stupidity and their completely silly chain of command is what fucked them over, not their strategic position. Like I said on the first page, there was a huge Panzer division waiting ready to go in to Normandy at 6AM on D-Day that could have effectively stopped the invasion in its tracks, or at least make it EXTREMELY hard. Yet Hitler decided to sleep in, and only he could give such an order, and they weren't sent out until 3PM. Not to overblow that moment as a "war changing" one, but I wanted to make the point -- Germany had every opportunity to win and you'd be very ignorant to think otherwise. There are literally thousands of stories like this out there where miscommunications, messups in chain of command, etc. caused a massive failure in German war efforts. The timing was also bad, as someone said on the 2nd(?) page. Some of their most powerful weapons came at the very end of the war that could have outright won it for them if they had them from the beginning. First off.. You can't forget that Normandy wasn't the only front the Allies had. By this point in war, Africa and Southern Italy were lost, and an invasion also ensued in Southern France at approximately the same time as Normandy. The invasion of Russia was somewhat illogical, yet at the same time it was hugely successful. Rommel and other commanders of the German high command (notably Manstein) advocated for an end to the Mediterranean Front before they ensue an invasion of Russia, especially as Afrika Corps was a mere expeditionary force sent out to aid the Italians in Libya. However, Rommel was hugely successful not only in repelling the British Eighty Army, but pushed them all the way back into Egpyt, and added with success in the Balkans (capitulation of most of the Balkans after a failed Italian invasion), Russia seemed like a sweetspot (after all, that was the point of Hitler's main objective, to reconquer Eastern Europe) One must also remember that Russia was severely weakened in reputation as well as its military hiearchy. Its struggles against Poland and Finland showed the weakness of the Red Army, and furthermore, Stalin ensued a series of executions known as the "great purge' that led to the execution not only of his political rivals,but of most of the military command. This was shown evident in the layout of the Russian army, who had positioned most of its resources and manpower at the front rather than in reserves, and the Germans took advantage. In the months leading upto the winter, Germany indeed took huge advantage, capturing hundreds of thousands of pows (at Kiev alone capturing 500 000 men), and destroying the entire Russian air force. When Ukraine (where two-thirds of Russia's production came from) was completely occupied by German forces, you could almost see it as a huge strategic victory for the Germans. Several things changed in the course of history that ultimately ended Germany's success. The biggest was that the Americans had joined the war, and despite never sending soldiers to the Eastern Front, contributed heavily by sending chevy trucks (to which there was nothing equal in Russia at the time) and helped rebuild much of the infrastructure in the Eastern Front. Furthermore, the war had continued on to the winter time, and rather than securing their positions and preparing for a winter offensive, Hitler, against the advice of the German high command, trucked his forces across pretty much all of Russia, attempting to defeat Russia in Moscow, (center), Leningrad (north) and Stalingrad (south). This might have worked, had the Americans not entered the war and Japan decided to focus its troops (outside of China) to the Pacific than towards Russia, freeing up Zhukov and his some two million fresh reinforcements to relieve the Soviet cities and completely surround the German armies. This was worsened by German defeat at El Alamein, and further pushed back when fresh American troops landed in Africa to defeat the last of the Italian and German forces, eventually forcing Germany to open another front in Italy, who was pretty much knocked out of the war at this point. | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:55 Jebusrocks wrote: First off.. You can't forget that Normandy wasn't the only front the Allies had. By this point in war, Africa and Southern Italy were lost, and an invasion also ensued in Southern France at approximately the same time as Normandy. The invasion of Russia was somewhat illogical, yet at the same time it was hugely successful. Rommel and other commanders of the German high command (notably Manstein) advocated for an end to the Mediterranean Front before they ensue an invasion of Russia, especially as Afrika Corps was a mere expeditionary force sent out to aid the Italians in Libya. However, Rommel was hugely successful not only in repelling the British Eighty Army, but pushed them all the way back into Egpyt, and added with success in the Balkans (capitulation of most of the Balkans after a failed Italian invasion), Russia seemed like a sweetspot (after all, that was the point of Hitler's main objective, to reconquer Eastern Europe) One must also remember that Russia was severely weakened in reputation as well as its military hiearchy. Its struggles against Poland and Finland showed the weakness of the Red Army, and furthermore, Stalin ensued a series of executions known as the "great purge' that led to the execution not only of his political rivals,but of most of the military command. This was shown evident in the layout of the Russian army, who had positioned most of its resources and manpower at the front rather than in reserves, and the Germans took advantage. In the months leading upto the winter, Germany indeed took huge advantage, capturing hundreds of thousands of pows (at Kiev alone capturing 500 000 men), and destroying the entire Russian air force. When Ukraine (where two-thirds of Russia's production came from) was completely occupied by German forces, you could almost see it as a huge strategic victory for the Germans. Several things changed in the course of history that ultimately ended Germany's success. The biggest was that the Americans had joined the war, and despite never sending soldiers to the Eastern Front, contributed heavily by sending chevy trucks (to which there was nothing equal in Russia at the time) and helped rebuild much of the infrastructure in the Eastern Front. Furthermore, the war had continued on to the winter time, and rather than securing their positions and preparing for a winter offensive, Hitler, against the advice of the German high command, trucked his forces across pretty much all of Russia, attempting to defeat Russia in Moscow, (center), Leningrad (north) and Stalingrad (south). This might have worked, had the Americans not entered the war and Japan decided to focus its troops (outside of China) to the Pacific than towards Russia, freeing up Zhukov and his some two million fresh reinforcements to relieve the Soviet cities and completely surround the German armies. This was worsened by German defeat at El Alamein, and further pushed back when fresh American troops landed in Africa to defeat the last of the Italian and German forces, eventually forcing Germany to open another front in Italy, who was pretty much knocked out of the war at this point. This just leads me wondering what Germany could have done to keep Japan out of attacking America. Were they even informed by Japan of the plans to attack Pearl Harbor? If so, why did they not do anything to try and prevent it? If Japan merely let America keep neutral, so much would have gone in their favor. Not that I'm complaining or anything. | ||
|
Jebusrocks
Canada62 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:51 HellRoxYa wrote: A major motivator for Hitler in attacking Russia was that he was afraid that he would die before the job was done (ie. the world was at his feet). Combined with the fact that he didn't feel they were making enough progress with Britain and not perceiving them as an offensive threat. I feel your reasons are more general in why he would ever want to attack Russia. To us, it's obvious that he would have attacked (or perhaps been attacked by) Russia at some point, due to different views on both race (slavs being some sort of subhuman) and forms of government. Actually no, Hitler's invasion of Russia was logical in his pov. His main foreign policy was to clear up Eastern Europe of "lesser" humans and repopulate the area with Germans (lebransraum), | ||
|
McFeser
United States2458 Posts
| ||
|
Jebusrocks
Canada62 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:58 Fruscainte wrote: This just leads me wondering what Germany could have done to keep Japan out of attacking America. Were they even informed by Japan of the plans to attack Pearl Harbor? If so, why did they not do anything to try and prevent it? If Japan merely let America keep neutral, so much would have gone in their favor. Not that I'm complaining or anything. ironically, Germany was very happy with the decision, congratulating Japan and even declaring war on the USA (keep in mind it was Germany that declared war on the US and not vice versa). They believed that, with the destruction of the Pacific Fleet, America would be completely pre-occupied with the Pacific Front, and indeed things were lookin well, with the capture of Singapore, Philippines, Indonesia, and all the western colonies leading to hundreds of thousands of pows and casualties. The Pacific Front changed, especially with the resistance of the Chinese, and the previous loss at Mongolia (Khalkin Gol), they chagned their goal to the British colonies in Burma and eventually India, Germany aiding by giving up French Indochina to the Japanese to quicken the process (the Germans believed that if they defeated the british, in India, they would be able to push the Russian front all the way to the Ural mountains, bypassing Zhukov's army and effectively destroying what was left of Russia's industrial output. Germany and Japan had both hoped that the US, upon its losses in the Pacific, would be too terrified to engage in total war against the Axis forces; the plan backfired and instead, the US poured its heart out and using its great industrial capacity (which at this point had no rival due to the destruction of European powers) to match both Japan and the US on all fronts. | ||
|
Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
I don't know what outcome would have been, but definitely a much more lengthy war. Neither side (western allies/soviet union) were a match for Germany's wermacht. I'm sure in such a case UK/europe would have totally fallen, but invading/beating USA is very hard, even if they would succeeded in bringing troops on american ground, it would still take them a good couple of years to do it (usa's quite big). As for invading/conquering Russia/USSR that's rather impossible, just geographically speaking (very hard climate, lots of huge and tough mountains, enormous surface) you need half a century or so to conquer it/subjugate it. | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 10:08 Pika Chu wrote: (i don't think Hitler took decisions only based on himself) You'd be surprised how little control the General's actually had. | ||
|
Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:27 Fruscainte wrote: You have no idea dude. If Hitler never invaded Russia, the Western Front would never have stood a chance. They barely broke through in D-Day/the ensuing days in France against, what was the figure again, 20% of Germany's forces and almost none of its Luftwaffe and Armor divisions? Honestly, if Germany just didn't break the treaty with Russia, we would not have stood a remote chance of defeating them. There were multiple times during the ensuing days after Normandy that higher ups were afraid of being pushed back into the sea essentially because of how many logistical and intelligence errors were made Hitler's stupidity and their completely silly chain of command is what fucked them over, not their strategic position. Like I said on the first page, there was a huge Panzer division waiting ready to go in to Normandy at 6AM on D-Day that could have effectively stopped the invasion in its tracks, or at least make it EXTREMELY hard. Yet Hitler decided to sleep in, and only he could give such an order, and they weren't sent out until 3PM. Not to overblow that moment as a "war changing" one, but I wanted to make the point -- Germany had every opportunity to win and you'd be very ignorant to think otherwise. There are literally thousands of stories like this out there where miscommunications, messups in chain of command, etc. caused a massive failure in German war efforts. The timing was also bad, as someone said on the 2nd(?) page. Some of their most powerful weapons came at the very end of the war that could have outright won it for them if they had them from the beginning. War between Germany and the USSR was inevitable. Had he not attacked, the Soviets would have in a year or two. Two bordering superpowers with very conflicting interests and politics cannot be at peace. Germany had to break the treaty, or else within 1-2 years, the Soviet Union would have finished its re-organization and solidification and would have been impregnable to Axis aggression. Not too tough to understand, @Pikachu. But yes, you (Fruscainte) are absolutely correct on the western front. Also, the Germans didn't even know what hit them until they saw ships approaching and aircraft above. That includes the preceding night when 18,000 iirc paratroopers dropped in to complete missions, of which the Germans had no idea was happening. Most of the high officers in France were on vacation at home, as well. They were very undermanned and under supplied, filling their ranks with POWs from Poland and the USSR, probably for doing menial tasks. Everything that could have gone wrong for the Germans on D-Day, went wrong, and in addition to what you already stated, it's actually not that significant a victory. The fact that it was barely won is just one of many things shows that the non-Soviet Allies were quite incompetent, just as the non-German Axis were. At least the US wasn't anywhere near as bad as Japan, though. Hell, the Italians couldn't even invade Greece, while the Germans swept through the Greek and British forces as fast as they could move their forces forward. This just leads me wondering what Germany could have done to keep Japan out of attacking America. Were they even informed by Japan of the plans to attack Pearl Harbor? If so, why did they not do anything to try and prevent it? If Japan merely let America keep neutral, so much would have gone in their favor. Not that I'm complaining or anything. Blockading oil and other resources to Japan and freezing Japanese assets in the US (which were quite significant and were building up since the mid-1800s) is going to provoke war. Like a retard, Roosevelt fired one admiral and overruled another when they deemed it necessary to move the fleet away from Pearl Harbor because it was a very vulnerable location. In the 1930s, the US military held exercises in which a naval fleet's aircraft "attacked" Pearl Harbor successfully with few "losses" when the defensive team was prepared, ready, and expecting it. Well, at least it gave us the excuse and justification to enter the war, which the govt. really, really wanted to do. | ||
|
MadMushroom
Netherlands15 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:58 Fruscainte wrote: This just leads me wondering what Germany could have done to keep Japan out of attacking America. Were they even informed by Japan of the plans to attack Pearl Harbor? If so, why did they not do anything to try and prevent it? If Japan merely let America keep neutral, so much would have gone in their favor. Not that I'm complaining or anything. Actually, if memory serves, Hitler declared war on America(after Japan) in the hopes that Japan would declare war on the USSR, opening up a second border for the Russians to fight. Edit: Which obviously they didn't do, they had their own problems being bogged down in China and with the embargo and all. | ||
KwarK
United States43971 Posts
On December 28 2011 10:10 Fruscainte wrote: You'd be surprised how little control the General's actually had. Equally there was a widespread policy of "working towards the Fuhrer" in which Hitler made sweeping statements of goals and policymakers attempted to enact them. | ||
|
Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On December 28 2011 10:23 MadMushroom wrote: Actually, if memory serves, Hitler declared war on America(after Japan) in the hopes that Japan would declare war on the USSR, opening up a second border for the Russians to fight. Hitler was bad at sensing fear. The Japanese were scared shitless of the Soviets following the 1939 battles, which were terribly one-sided, and ceded for peace with no inclination to break it. I'd wager that the Japanese would have surrendered if no nukes were used once the Soviets commenced Operation August Storm and defeated the Japanese forces in China.. in 10 days. But that would mean the US would have to share Japan with the USSR, which is not something we wanted to do at all. Additionally, throughout the war, the Soviets had a substantial, fortified military force in the Far East, and given the far superior strategy, technology, and strength of the Soviets over the Japanese, any attack by the Japanese would have been suicidal. They were too fearful to try. Apparently wisdom is not the explanation, seeing as they thought they could defeat the US (or any country other than Korea/China). | ||
|
Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 10:26 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Hitler was bad at sensing fear. The Japanese were scared shitless of the Soviets following the 1939 battles, which were terribly one-sided, and ceded for peace with no inclination to break it. I'd wager that the Japanese would have surrendered if no nukes were used once the Soviets commenced Operation August Storm and defeated the Japanese forces in China.. in 10 days. But that would mean the US would have to share Japan with the USSR, which is not something we wanted to do at all. Additionally, throughout the war, the Soviets had a substantial, fortified military force in the Far East, and given the far superior strategy, technology, and strength of the Soviets over the Japanese, any attack by the Japanese would have been suicidal. They were too fearful to try. Apparently wisdom is not the answer, seeing as they thought they could defeat the US (or any country other than Korea/China). Was Eastern Russia really that well defended? I never really put much thought into Russo-Japanese conflicts, but I always assumed that with the nature of Eastern Russia it would be, if anything, the least defended area in the country. EDIT: The one fact about WW2 that always makes me chuckle though is the intelligence, or rather lack of it we got in France. I saw a documentary on this...eh...a year or so ago on the days directly after D-Day. Where basically, American intelligence planes thought these hedges and shit in the French countryside, as I said on the first page, were only like 5ft tall and could just be ran over by tanks and shit. Well, surprise! They were actually like 40 feet tall and what should have taken less than 24 hours, took like a week. | ||
|
Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
"Best/Greatest General of the WW2" | ||
| ||
