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World War II History Thread

Forum Index > General Forum
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CrimsonLotus
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Colombia1123 Posts
December 27 2011 19:03 GMT
#1
I was reading a thread the other day that got derailed into a WWII discussion, so I tought about making a thread dedicated to the many myths, realities and less know facts about the biggest war in history.

There are many more subjects I want to include, but finding well explained sources takes some time, so I'll expand on the matter as time goes by.

Feel free to discuss any and all WWII related subjects here, while of course avoiding to break any of TL rules, as we all know that subjects like this can stir up some nationalistic feelings.

Khalkhin-Gol: The forgotten battle that shaped WW2.

A battle not officially part of WWII, but that shaped much of it's outcome since it showed the incompetence of the Japanese ground army, assuring that Russia would never have to fight a two front war, and forcing the japanese into expanding more into the Pacific.


The battle of Khalkhin-Gol decisively showed the expansionist Japanese military that it was not a match for the Soviets – particularly while Japanese forces were still bogged down throughout China. The Soviets under combined their forces to stunning effect, while Japanese tactics remained stuck in a pre-modern mindset that valued honour and personal bravery more highly on the battlefield than massed forces and armour.

When Hitler finally invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 the Japanese, although tempted to join the attack, remembered the lessons of Khalkhin Gol and decided to remain on the sidelines, ensuring that the stretched Soviet military could focus its forces on just one front. This, in turn, meant that Nazi Germany was forced to fight a four year war on two fronts – against the Soviets in the East, and the British and Americans in the West.

Defeat at Khalkhin-Gol can also be seen as a major factor in the Japanese decision to expand into the Pacific. As expansion to the North-West was no longer an option, ill defended and scattered colonial territories made far easier targets. Even the United States was deemed a less formidable adversary than the Soviet Union and, if the Japanse had not lost at Khalkhin-Gol, they would surely have never attacked Pearl Harbour.


http://siberianlight.net/khalkhin-gol-battle-nomonhan/

The Eastfront VS. The Westfront.

Nazi Germany was defeated in Moscow in 1941, Stalingrad in 1942 and in Kursk in 1943. By the time of the D-Day the Wehrmacht was nothing but a shadow of it's former self. The vast majority of the fighting took place in the Eastern Front.

The numbers speak for themselves. The Soviets destroyed 75-80% of all German divisions -- 4 million soldiers -- and most of the Luftwaffe. Russia lost at least 14 million soldiers and a similar number of civilians.

The Red Army destroyed 507 Axis divisions. On the Western Front after D-Day, the Allies destroyed 176 badly under-strength German divisions.

When the Allies landed in Normandy, they met battered German forces with no air cover, crippled by lack of fuel and supplies, unable to move in daytime. Even so, the Germans fought like tigers. Had the invading US, British and Canadians encountered the 1940's Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe, the outcome may well have been different.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-margolis/four-pernicious-myths-of-_b_865513.html

The Japanese Suicide.

If Hitler's decision to engage in a two front war was foolish, the decision of the Japanese Empire to start a war with the US was nothing but suicidal. However strong the Japanese Imperial Navy was in 1941, Japan didn't had the means to replace their vessels and planes in sufficient numbers once it started taking losses. It didn't mattered how many battle would the US loss, in time they could rebuild again and again, because their economy and industrial output was far, far bigger than that of Japan.

There was a 0% chance of Japan ever winning the war.

In retrospect, it is difficult to comprehend how Japan's leadership managed to rationalize their way around the economic facts when they contemplated making war on the U.S. After all, these were not stupid men. Indeed, internal Imperial Navy studies conducted in 1941 showed exactly the trends in naval shipbuilding I have outlined above. In the end, however, the Tojo government chose the path of aggression, compelled by internal political dynamics which made the prospect of a general Japanese disengagement in China (which was the only means by which the American economic embargo would have been lifted) too humiliating a course to be taken. Consequently, the Japanese embarked on what can only be described as a suicidal venture, against an overwhelmingly large foe. However, their greatest mistake was not just disregarding the economic muscle which lay partially dormant on the other side of the Pacific. In actuality, their chief error lay in misreading the will of the American people. When the American giant awoke, it did not lapse into despair as a result of the defeats that Japan had inflicted upon it. Rather, it awoke in a rage, and applied every ounce of its tremendous strength with a cold, methodical fury against its foe. The grim price Japan paid -- 1.8 million military casualties, the complete annihilation of its military, a half million or so civilians killed, and the utter destruction of practically every major urban area within the Home Islands -- bears mute testimony to the folly of its militarist leaders.


http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

Japanese Atroccities: The Forgotten Holocaust

During the Nanking Massacre, the Japanese committed a litany of atrocities against innocent civilians, including mass execution, raping, looting, and burning. It is impossible to keep a detailed account of all of these crimes. However, from the scale and the nature of these crimes as documented by survivors and the diaries of the Japanese militarists, the chilling evidence of this historical tragedy is indisputable.


LINK NSFW.
http://www.nanking-massacre.com/

The Unit 731 functioned as an experimental labour for military medical research during the Second Sino-Japanese War and World War 2 in Manchuria, China. The aim was to research the perfect biological weapon with the capibility to kill thousands of people.

Among the prisoners were women and children. They were used to test the effects of grenades from different positions. Pregnant victims had their babies removed without anesthetics. Smomachs, limbs were removed, and blood loss has been studied. Parts of brain, lungs, liver were cut off.


LINK NSFW.
http://www.unit-731.com/

Sea Lion: Why the German Could Have Never Conquered Britain.


Operation Sea Lion (German: Unternehmen Seelöwe) was Germany's plan to invade the United Kingdom during the Second World War, beginning in 1940. To have had any chance of success, however, the operation would have required air and naval supremacy over the English Channel. With the German defeat in the Battle of Britain, Sea Lion was postponed indefinitely on 17 September 1940 and never carried out.[2]

The great majority of military historians believe Operation Sea Lion would not have succeeded. Kenneth Macksey asserts it would have only been possible if the Royal Navy had refrained from large scale intervention[52] and the Germans had assaulted in July 1940 (although Macksey conceded they were unprepared at that time),[53] while others such as Peter Fleming, Derek Robinson and Stephen Bungay believe the operation would have most likely resulted in a disaster for the Germans. Len Deighton and some other writers have called the German amphibious plans a "Dunkirk in reverse".[54]

Adolf Galland, commander of Luftwaffe fighters at the time, claimed invasion plans were not serious and that there was a palpable sense of relief in the Wehrmacht when it was finally called off. Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt also took this view and thought that Hitler never seriously intended to invade Britain and the whole thing was a bluff, to put pressure on the British Government to come to terms.[55] In fact in November 1939 the German Naval staff produced a study (on the possibility of an invasion of Britain) and concluded that it required two preconditions, air and naval superiority, neither of which Germany ever had.[56]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion
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Sithelin123
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada168 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-28 07:16:42
December 27 2011 19:09 GMT
#2
I think that a lot of your messages in the OP are opinionated...
nerfherder182
Profile Joined December 2011
53 Posts
December 27 2011 19:09 GMT
#3
The death of General patton was interesting. it almost seems to unlucky to be true!
pred470r
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Bulgaria3265 Posts
December 27 2011 19:09 GMT
#4
Why don't you post this in some history specified forum instead of TL? This thread will just end up in a quarrel between who's the best, who's right or wrong and that the holocaust is real/fake/over-under-exaggerated, and nothing good will come out of it.
kobrakai
Profile Joined June 2011
175 Posts
December 27 2011 19:12 GMT
#5
so I tought about making a thread dedicated to the many myths, realities and less know facts about the biggest war in history.

and then in five lines you write:

A battle not officially part of WWII, but that shaped much of it's outcome since it showed the incompetence of the Japanese ground army, assuring that Russia would never have to fight a two front war, and forcing the japanese into expanding more into the Pacific.

Which is a load of drivel.

If you want to start a decent thread, don't stuff up the op.

There was a 0% chance of Japan ever winning the war. - lol





User was warned for this post
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 19:15:37
December 27 2011 19:15 GMT
#6
War to end all wars was biggest myth. Or was that WW1?
MC for president
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 19:17:55
December 27 2011 19:15 GMT
#7
I feel as if trying to quantify "who did more" is arbitrary, at best. Both sides played amazing roles in the battle against Germany. Russia did a fucking awesome job doing what they did, and we would not have been able to invade the Western Front at all if Hitler didn't throw on his retard pants and break the treaty. However, I don't think Russia, on the same token, would have had the same success without America/Britain/Canada/etc. on the Western Front doing business.

Hilariously enough, we did not win the war -- Germany herself lost the war. Germany's command structure was so horrendously silly, that basically, everything had to be run through Hitler -- the Generals really had no -actual- control. On the day of D-Day (pardon the redundancy) there was a nice little Panzer division waiting to roll in since 6AM to stop the attack. I mean, these fuckers could have stopped the invasion in its tracks considering how basically no armor made it onto the beach until well after the initial assault was over. However, Hitler decided to sleep in late that day -- to like 2-3PM in fact -- and it was only until that time that he was able to allow the Division to move in, however, it was already too late. This is compounded by the intelligence error made by the Americans. They thought those huge hedges that cover the French countryside were only a couple feet tall, when in fact, they were a couple dozen meters tall and they were bogged down for days in that.

Don't even get me started on Stalingrad and whatnot.

I think Hitler was a little too confident, and tried to go for absolute victory. If he just bided his time, it would have turned out a lot better for him. Nonetheless, I don't think the Russians could have gotten absolute victory if not for the Western Front. Who is to say Hitler could not have just retreated back West into France, causing the Russians to expend even MORE resources? That that 25-20% extra German forces couldn't have been that turning point in the war in Germany's favor?

I'm rambling now, but whatever

Under the hand of an actually no mentally handicapped leader, Germany would have and, under every category, SHOULD have won World War 2. They had better technology, a better fighting spirit, and all that jazz. It's just...ugh, Hitler made some pretty stupid fucking decisions.
kingcoyote
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States546 Posts
December 27 2011 19:16 GMT
#8
On December 28 2011 04:09 pred470r wrote:
Why don't you post this in some history specified forum instead of TL? This thread will just end up in a quarrel between who's the best, who's right or wrong and that the holocaust is real/fake/over-under-exaggerated, and nothing good will come out of it.


Rather than pre-emptively shitting on this thread, why not contribute or keep quiet?
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 19:19:49
December 27 2011 19:17 GMT
#9
On December 28 2011 04:09 Sithelin123 wrote:
I like World War 2 cause it resulted in Company of Heroes getting made. It is one of my favorite RTS games of all time. Also, Eastern front >>>>>>> Western front in epicness, Too bad that CoH didn't have an Eastern front version

My Great grandfather was on the eastern front in the Wehrmacht for 6 years. Stories he told... Was in Russian prison twice but one guard let him out (we are all humans) and the other shot him in the leg escaping. He was shot 7 times and hated war/racism/ethnicism by the time it was over.
MC for president
juked
Profile Joined May 2010
United States691 Posts
December 27 2011 19:22 GMT
#10
Nanking Massacre was a terrible thing that has had less publicity than the holocaust.
I am planning to read the book "The Rape of Nanking" which I've heard is very graphic
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
December 27 2011 19:24 GMT
#11
I, for some reason, can NOT get enough of WW2, it's like every aspect of it fascinates me...
Sithelin123
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada168 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 19:25:52
December 27 2011 19:24 GMT
#12
On December 28 2011 04:17 tdt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 04:09 Sithelin123 wrote:
I like World War 2 cause it resulted in Company of Heroes getting made. It is one of my favorite RTS games of all time. Also, Eastern front >>>>>>> Western front in epicness, Too bad that CoH didn't have an Eastern front version

My Great grandfather was on the eastern front in the Wehrmacht for 6 years. Stories he told... Was in Russian prison twice but one guard let him out (we are all humans) and the other shot him in the leg escaping. He was shot 7 times and hated war/racism/ethnicism by the time it was over.


I expect that the Russians would be extremely brutal to enemy POW. After all, don't they kill their OWN troops for surrendering? Your great grandfather should be lucky to be alive after all many German POWs did not survive confinement in the Soviet Union. However, this certainly goes both ways as it was the Germans that invaded the Soviets and also treated their population extremely inhumanely. To the point of being downright genocidal actually.
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5497 Posts
December 27 2011 19:25 GMT
#13
The post has so many typos try to fix that.
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
RezChi
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2368 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 19:26:15
December 27 2011 19:26 GMT
#14
On December 28 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
War to end all wars was biggest myth. Or was that WW1?

WWII was the war to end all wars, WWI was the "The Great war".
Sithelin123
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada168 Posts
December 27 2011 19:27 GMT
#15
On December 28 2011 04:26 RezChi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
War to end all wars was biggest myth. Or was that WW1?

WWII was the war to end all wars, WWI was the "The Great war".


Actually from what I remember from my history class WW1 was both...
Suvorov
Profile Joined December 2010
294 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-27 19:29:22
December 27 2011 19:29 GMT
#16
Nice OP. I had never heard of Kalkhin-Gol until today. Thanks for that gem.
If you label every single aggressive strategy 'cheese', you are officially declaring yourself an incurable mental retard.
Dagobert
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Netherlands1858 Posts
December 27 2011 19:30 GMT
#17
On December 28 2011 04:25 thezanursic wrote:
The post has so many typos try to fix that.

No, don't. It's representative of the quality of the entire post.
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
December 27 2011 19:30 GMT
#18
What about Fins or Poles? Those guys kicked some ass.
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
nalgene
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada2153 Posts
December 27 2011 19:30 GMT
#19
There's a doctor from that unit 731 who's still alive and in Japan. ( He speaks occasionally )

Hitler started the war too early. His armies in Africa were always saving Mussolini's ill trained army. ( It would have been good for Germany to train Italy's forces and use their resources. ) His technology wasn't done until near the end of the war. He also had a chance to destroy GB until he decided to attack Russia for some odd reason and also facing a Russian winter at the same time.
If Germany was exchanging resources with Japan and having Japan to never attack, it'd would went quite well. Perhaps the US would not have entered the war.
He was good for taking them out of the bad economy they had prior, but he should have left the war to his generals. He's more of a politician than a military tactician.
The Vergeltungswaffe weren't done until near the end of the war. He had the best chance of winning with a mass of those.
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
Archie_Lewis
Profile Joined July 2011
Czech Republic87 Posts
December 27 2011 19:31 GMT
#20
Oh man. My dad used to watch WW2 documentaries on the telly all the time. When other kids were watching cartoons and child stuff, I was watching WW2 documentaries.

"wow im so bad at this game..." - Chris Loranger
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