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On December 28 2011 05:10 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 05:04 Kickboxer wrote:
It's funny and awe inspiring how anyone who fucks with mother Russia gets utterly thrashed. The soviet are pretty badass when it comes to warfare. Under another topic and if you would've chosen other words to express you opinion I probably would've let this slip and just shrugged but like this I have to quote something from the op for you Show nested quote +
The Soviets destroyed 75-80% of all German divisions -- 4 million soldiers -- and most of the Luftwaffe. Russia lost at least 14 million soldiers
So the efficiency of the German soldiers against the Russian soldiers should be around 350% and maybe higher, although they fought in the russian winter.
Actually that isn't likely including the full bulk of it. In terms of dead, missing, captured or disabled, the casualties for each side can be seen on page 12 and 13 of this article by David Glantz:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/46024396/Glantz-war41-45
For the Soviet side, it was 14.7 million in total vs Japan and Germany. For the Axis (remember Germany had allies on Eastern front), the Eastern front Casualties were 10.7 million German and 1.7 million Axis. So in reality they are almost 1:1 in casualties considering the entire war. The entire Axis casualties in total were 12,483,000 soldiers killed, missing, captured, or permanently disabled in the Eastern Front.
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On December 28 2011 04:26 RezChi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:War to end all wars was biggest myth. Or was that WW1?  WWII was the war to end all wars, WWI was the "The Great war".
WWI was meant to be the "war to end all wars."
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WW2 history "debates" are terrible affairs unless done by professionals in the field...amateur attempts at counterfactual historiography are quite laughable overall, and tend to assume a continuity of thought and achievement that far exceeds realistic expectations.
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if you have time at your hand and did not previously research anything on the II World war and you want to know the basics and more, watch the BBC series "The World at War" from the 60/70. Excellent production.
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My great-grandfather was a POW in Siberia for 10 years because he was a policeman, he claimed that 98% of all prisoners in that gulag died during that time. Needless to say he was borderline insane after returning home though.
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On December 28 2011 05:05 Sithelin123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 05:04 Kickboxer wrote:
It's funny and awe inspiring how anyone who fucks with mother Russia gets utterly thrashed. The soviet are pretty badass when it comes to warfare. The mongols kicked their asses didnt they? Plus the Russians are only all that great when defending. Their offensive history is anything but spectacular.
The Mongols didn't get all that far before Genghis Khan died. they didn't do too much more after that.
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On December 28 2011 05:29 secretary bird wrote:
My great-grandfather was a POW in Siberia for 10 years because he was a policeman, he claimed that 98% of all prisoners in that gulag died during that time. Needless to say he was borderline insane after returning home though.
Umm, after World War 2 I'm quite sure Gulag deaths returned to normal Stalinist pre-war levels. They did peak during the war itself though. But yeah, I heard of the Soviets arresting basically anyone and throwing them in the Gulags at the end of the war. Policeman, fireman, anyone they can get just to feed the slave labour economy of theirs.
Here is a good chart from wiki:
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Gulag_Prisoner_Stats_1934-1953.PNG)
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On December 28 2011 04:26 RezChi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:War to end all wars was biggest myth. Or was that WW1? WWII was the war to end all wars, WWI was the "The Great war".
the great war and the war to end all wars was the same thing (WWI) i think
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The pianist is a great WW2 based movie, on something history classes don't spend much time covering. (Warsaw uprising/ German occupation of poland)
It was really sad, yet amazing at the same time. I for one, cant get enough of WW2, avid cod1/2 player. Absolutely love WW based fps's. It's just so interesting.
and the fins kicked some tush
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On December 28 2011 05:31 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 05:05 Sithelin123 wrote:On December 28 2011 05:04 Kickboxer wrote:
It's funny and awe inspiring how anyone who fucks with mother Russia gets utterly thrashed. The soviet are pretty badass when it comes to warfare. The mongols kicked their asses didnt they? Plus the Russians are only all that great when defending. Their offensive history is anything but spectacular. The Mongols didn't get all that far before Genghis Khan died. they didn't do too much more after that.
Actually they did a lot I think, they increased their territory by at least 100% and continued to be relevant for at least 250 years after his death.
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On December 28 2011 05:40 secretary bird wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 05:31 Lightwip wrote:On December 28 2011 05:05 Sithelin123 wrote:On December 28 2011 05:04 Kickboxer wrote:
It's funny and awe inspiring how anyone who fucks with mother Russia gets utterly thrashed. The soviet are pretty badass when it comes to warfare. The mongols kicked their asses didnt they? Plus the Russians are only all that great when defending. Their offensive history is anything but spectacular. The Mongols didn't get all that far before Genghis Khan died. they didn't do too much more after that. Actually they did a lot I think, they increased their territory by at least 100% and continued to be relevant for at least 250 years after his death.
They took down the Kiev Empire, but they didn't get as far as they did in a lot of other places, especially the Middle East and China
Also, campaigns in Russia sometimes last for years. Russian Winter is sort of unavoidable.
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The moral of WW2 is that the bigger mustache wins.
They took down the Kiev Empire, but they didn't get as far as they did in a lot of other places, especially the Middle East and China
Conquering Persia and exterminating the Abbasid population (odd change of policy from genocide to extermination) and getting as far as Egypt and almost destroying it sounds pretty far to me. Most importantly, they destroyed the world's most advanced nation. Fortunately, a bit of that knowledge and research was recovered to kick off the Renaissance in Italy. Genghis Khan was dead for quite a while when the Mideastern campaigns began.
Personally I dont trust Soviet statistics they were proven wrong too many times and we will never really know imo but thats just me.
You realize these statistics were kept under lock and key until Gorby went nuts and started releasing tons of highly classified materials? There's no reason for the Soviet government to lie to themselves (as they were the only ones seeing these documents until then). Btw, what was proven wrong lol? That's a rather bold assertion. Facts don't line up with the post-Cold War (and Cold War) propaganda you and I were indoctrinated with? Too bad.
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On December 28 2011 05:34 Sithelin123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 05:29 secretary bird wrote:
My great-grandfather was a POW in Siberia for 10 years because he was a policeman, he claimed that 98% of all prisoners in that gulag died during that time. Needless to say he was borderline insane after returning home though. Umm, after World War 2 I'm quite sure Gulag deaths returned to normal Stalinist pre-war levels. They did peak during the war itself though. But yeah, I heard of the Soviets arresting basically anyone and throwing them in the Gulags at the end of the war. Policeman, fireman, anyone they can get just to feed the slave labour economy of theirs. Here is a good chart from wiki:
Personally I dont trust Soviet statistics they were proven wrong too many times and we will never really know imo but thats just me.
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On December 28 2011 05:18 Sithelin123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 05:10 SilentchiLL wrote:On December 28 2011 05:04 Kickboxer wrote:
It's funny and awe inspiring how anyone who fucks with mother Russia gets utterly thrashed. The soviet are pretty badass when it comes to warfare. Under another topic and if you would've chosen other words to express you opinion I probably would've let this slip and just shrugged but like this I have to quote something from the op for you
The Soviets destroyed 75-80% of all German divisions -- 4 million soldiers -- and most of the Luftwaffe. Russia lost at least 14 million soldiers
So the efficiency of the German soldiers against the Russian soldiers should be around 350% and maybe higher, although they fought in the russian winter. Actually that isn't likely including the full bulk of it. In terms of dead, missing, captured or disabled, the casualties for each side can be seen on page 12 and 13 of this article by David Glantz: http://www.scribd.com/doc/46024396/Glantz-war41-45For the Soviet side, it was 14.7 million in total vs Japan and Germany. For the Axis (remember Germany had allies on Eastern front), the Eastern front Casualties were 10.7 million German and 1.7 million Axis. So in reality they are almost 1:1 in casualties considering the entire war. The entire Axis casualties in total were 12,483,000 soldiers killed, missing, captured, or permanently disabled in the Eastern Front.
David Glantz' statistics are confusing though, he maintains that
"Overall, the RedArmy, Navy, and NKVD suffered at least 29 million and perhaps as many as 35 million military casualties"
edit: but yeah, the overall casualty figures are closer than the OP would lead you to believe
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On December 28 2011 05:55 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 05:18 Sithelin123 wrote:On December 28 2011 05:10 SilentchiLL wrote:On December 28 2011 05:04 Kickboxer wrote:
It's funny and awe inspiring how anyone who fucks with mother Russia gets utterly thrashed. The soviet are pretty badass when it comes to warfare. Under another topic and if you would've chosen other words to express you opinion I probably would've let this slip and just shrugged but like this I have to quote something from the op for you
The Soviets destroyed 75-80% of all German divisions -- 4 million soldiers -- and most of the Luftwaffe. Russia lost at least 14 million soldiers
So the efficiency of the German soldiers against the Russian soldiers should be around 350% and maybe higher, although they fought in the russian winter. Actually that isn't likely including the full bulk of it. In terms of dead, missing, captured or disabled, the casualties for each side can be seen on page 12 and 13 of this article by David Glantz: http://www.scribd.com/doc/46024396/Glantz-war41-45For the Soviet side, it was 14.7 million in total vs Japan and Germany. For the Axis (remember Germany had allies on Eastern front), the Eastern front Casualties were 10.7 million German and 1.7 million Axis. So in reality they are almost 1:1 in casualties considering the entire war. The entire Axis casualties in total were 12,483,000 soldiers killed, missing, captured, or permanently disabled in the Eastern Front. David Glantz' statistics are confusing though, he maintains that "Overall, the RedArmy, Navy, and NKVD suffered at least 29 million and perhaps as many as 35 million military casualties"
Thats the list beside the permanent casualties (titled "Total"). I only listed the permanent casualties for the Soviets because only the permanent casualties for the Axis were listed. Non-permanent casualties would be things like wounded or sick.
If you like, you can get another credible historian on the subject to list casualties.
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On December 28 2011 04:09 pred470r wrote:
Why don't you post this in some history specified forum instead of TL? This thread will just end up in a quarrel between who's the best, who's right or wrong and that the holocaust is real/fake/over-under-exaggerated, and nothing good will come out of it.
it's more likely to turn into a debate about whether or not the nukes were justified, followed shortly by thread closure
just going from TL's history on related threads..
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I disagree with some of the things in this OP. I'm not supporting Nazi Germany, but they definitely could have taken control of Britain. I don't think that's up for debate.
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On December 28 2011 06:00 GreEny K wrote:
I disagree with some of the things in this OP. I'm not supporting Nazi Germany, but they definitely could have taken control of Britain. I don't think that's up for debate.
The OP is just full of poorly substantiated opinions.
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lets talk about the winter war or how the finnish lost 70k men and the russians 323k LOL useless russians
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On December 28 2011 06:13 atwar wrote:
lets talk about the winter war or how the finnish lost 70k men and the russians 323k LOL useless russians
Bigotry and support of close Nazi allies in the same post. Smart. I'd be thanking all my Norse gods that after almost single-handedly beating the Germans, they didn't come back around and destroy Finland, because they very well could have, especially through total war and saturation bombing to nullify the heavy advantage of guerilla warfare of the Winter War. Just saying. It is good the Soviets were not too particularly vengeful against the Germans and German allies (like Finland, although Finland's wasn't so involved in the offensives against the USSR since they didn't have much of a military to speak of) who deliberately committed genocide against them.
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EPT
