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On January 03 2012 00:28 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? It's not that the people of Japan themselves should feel sorry about it (apart from the ones who were alive and took part in the atrocities), it's the fact that the Japanese government has never officially apologized for it like Germany did and the fact that they neglect to teach it in schools.
Well try to remember winners justice. Two atomic bombs to japanese cities and harsh peace treaty terms. I guess today its too late to officially apologize it.
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On January 03 2012 00:53 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:46 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? They don't feel sorry about it. That's the whole point.... -_- And they shouldnt feel sorry - that's his point (and I agree). The only thing which I can agree with the post is "in fact a lot of japanese people dont even know what they did back in WWII" - that should change (if it's true and they dont learn something like that in school). Learn history - so you dont repeat the mistakes yourself. But this applies to all people - I doubt the majority of the world population knows what Japan did in WWII (i.e. it wasnt part of my curriculum).
And visiting yakushini shrine that is dedicated to fallen war criminals during the imperial japan? What do you say about that?
The japanese people are aware of what they did. But they don't know the full extension of it. The government knows what they did but they also have pride so they don't bow down to countries they raped.
There never will be peace in East Asia because of WWII history. And because of what japanese government is doing to avoid revealing truth to their own citizens.
You Germans would freak out (and the rest of other western nations) if some of your people in German government actually built a church or grieving site for the fallen Nazi war criminals.
Well, that is exactly what japanese government is doing as of right now. No shit they are not sorry for what they did during WWII.
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On December 28 2011 10:32 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 10:26 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On December 28 2011 10:23 MadMushroom wrote:On December 28 2011 09:58 Fruscainte wrote:This just leads me wondering what Germany could have done to keep Japan out of attacking America. Were they even informed by Japan of the plans to attack Pearl Harbor? If so, why did they not do anything to try and prevent it? If Japan merely let America keep neutral, so much would have gone in their favor. Not that I'm complaining or anything.  Actually, if memory serves, Hitler declared war on America(after Japan) in the hopes that Japan would declare war on the USSR, opening up a second border for the Russians to fight. Hitler was bad at sensing fear. The Japanese were scared shitless of the Soviets following the 1939 battles, which were terribly one-sided, and ceded for peace with no inclination to break it. I'd wager that the Japanese would have surrendered if no nukes were used once the Soviets commenced Operation August Storm and defeated the Japanese forces in China.. in 10 days. But that would mean the US would have to share Japan with the USSR, which is not something we wanted to do at all. Additionally, throughout the war, the Soviets had a substantial, fortified military force in the Far East, and given the far superior strategy, technology, and strength of the Soviets over the Japanese, any attack by the Japanese would have been suicidal. They were too fearful to try. Apparently wisdom is not the answer, seeing as they thought they could defeat the US (or any country other than Korea/China). Was Eastern Russia really that well defended? I never really put much thought into Russo-Japanese conflicts, but I always assumed that with the nature of Eastern Russia it would be, if anything, the least defended area in the country. EDIT: The one fact about WW2 that always makes me chuckle though is the intelligence, or rather lack of it we got in France. I saw a documentary on this...eh...a year or so ago on the days directly after D-Day. Where basically, American intelligence planes thought these hedges and shit in the French countryside, as I said on the first page, were only like 5ft tall and could just be ran over by tanks and shit. Well, surprise! They were actually like 40 feet tall and what should have taken less than 24 hours, took like a week.
Russia had a lot of troops on the border with china, Stalin was convinced that Japan would declare war, one of the big reasons that Soviets were able to win the battle of Moscow are those fresh reinforcements that were finally moved.
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On January 03 2012 00:58 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:28 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? It's not that the people of Japan themselves should feel sorry about it (apart from the ones who were alive and took part in the atrocities), it's the fact that the Japanese government has never officially apologized for it like Germany did and the fact that they neglect to teach it in schools. Well try to remember winners justice. Two atomic bombs to japanese cities and harsh peace treaty terms. I guess today its too late to officially apologize it.
Germany suffered a much more crushing and total defeat than Japan yet still apologized and taught its citizens the horrors of its past. Perhaps it is too late for an official apology but they could at least teach their citizens about the terrible things that happened.
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On January 03 2012 01:01 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 10:32 Fruscainte wrote:On December 28 2011 10:26 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On December 28 2011 10:23 MadMushroom wrote:On December 28 2011 09:58 Fruscainte wrote:This just leads me wondering what Germany could have done to keep Japan out of attacking America. Were they even informed by Japan of the plans to attack Pearl Harbor? If so, why did they not do anything to try and prevent it? If Japan merely let America keep neutral, so much would have gone in their favor. Not that I'm complaining or anything. Actually, if memory serves, Hitler declared war on America(after Japan) in the hopes that Japan would declare war on the USSR, opening up a second border for the Russians to fight. Hitler was bad at sensing fear. The Japanese were scared shitless of the Soviets following the 1939 battles, which were terribly one-sided, and ceded for peace with no inclination to break it. I'd wager that the Japanese would have surrendered if no nukes were used once the Soviets commenced Operation August Storm and defeated the Japanese forces in China.. in 10 days. But that would mean the US would have to share Japan with the USSR, which is not something we wanted to do at all. Additionally, throughout the war, the Soviets had a substantial, fortified military force in the Far East, and given the far superior strategy, technology, and strength of the Soviets over the Japanese, any attack by the Japanese would have been suicidal. They were too fearful to try. Apparently wisdom is not the answer, seeing as they thought they could defeat the US (or any country other than Korea/China). Was Eastern Russia really that well defended? I never really put much thought into Russo-Japanese conflicts, but I always assumed that with the nature of Eastern Russia it would be, if anything, the least defended area in the country. EDIT: The one fact about WW2 that always makes me chuckle though is the intelligence, or rather lack of it we got in France. I saw a documentary on this...eh...a year or so ago on the days directly after D-Day. Where basically, American intelligence planes thought these hedges and shit in the French countryside, as I said on the first page, were only like 5ft tall and could just be ran over by tanks and shit. Well, surprise! They were actually like 40 feet tall and what should have taken less than 24 hours, took like a week. Russia had a lot of troops on the border with china, Stalin was convinced that Japan would declare war, one of the big reasons that Soviets were able to win the battle of Moscow are those fresh reinforcements that were finally moved.
Actually, there already was many border skirmishes with japan before WWII. Notably Battles of Khalkhin Gol, where japanese army was literally pounded by the Soviets and japan never bothered to venture deep into Mongolian territories after that.
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On January 03 2012 01:00 kaisen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:53 Zocat wrote:On January 03 2012 00:46 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? They don't feel sorry about it. That's the whole point.... -_- And they shouldnt feel sorry - that's his point (and I agree). The only thing which I can agree with the post is "in fact a lot of japanese people dont even know what they did back in WWII" - that should change (if it's true and they dont learn something like that in school). Learn history - so you dont repeat the mistakes yourself. But this applies to all people - I doubt the majority of the world population knows what Japan did in WWII (i.e. it wasnt part of my curriculum). And visiting yakushini shrine that is dedicated to fallen war criminals during the imperial japan? What do you say about that? The japanese people are aware of what they did. But they don't know the full extension of it. The government knows what they did but they also have pride so they don't bow down to countries they raped. There never will be peace in East Asia because of WWII history. And because of what japanese government is doing to avoid revealing truth to their own citizens. You Germans would freak out (and the rest of other western nations) if some of your people in German government actually built a church or grieving site for the fallen Nazi war criminals. Well, that is exactly what japanese government is doing as of right now. No shit they are not sorry for what they did during WWII.
You have to remember that huge majority of people of that shrine are normal soldiers.
On January 03 2012 01:03 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 00:58 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 00:28 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? It's not that the people of Japan themselves should feel sorry about it (apart from the ones who were alive and took part in the atrocities), it's the fact that the Japanese government has never officially apologized for it like Germany did and the fact that they neglect to teach it in schools. Well try to remember winners justice. Two atomic bombs to japanese cities and harsh peace treaty terms. I guess today its too late to officially apologize it. Germany suffered a much more crushing and total defeat than Japan yet still apologized and taught its citizens the horrors of its past. Perhaps it is too late for an official apology but they could at least teach their citizens about the terrible things that happened.
Why? If they want to know what happened @ WWII they can easily do that. I did same thing for Finnish Civil War and other major conflicts. Though you have to remember winners history.
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On January 03 2012 01:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 01:00 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:53 Zocat wrote:On January 03 2012 00:46 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? They don't feel sorry about it. That's the whole point.... -_- And they shouldnt feel sorry - that's his point (and I agree). The only thing which I can agree with the post is "in fact a lot of japanese people dont even know what they did back in WWII" - that should change (if it's true and they dont learn something like that in school). Learn history - so you dont repeat the mistakes yourself. But this applies to all people - I doubt the majority of the world population knows what Japan did in WWII (i.e. it wasnt part of my curriculum). And visiting yakushini shrine that is dedicated to fallen war criminals during the imperial japan? What do you say about that? The japanese people are aware of what they did. But they don't know the full extension of it. The government knows what they did but they also have pride so they don't bow down to countries they raped. There never will be peace in East Asia because of WWII history. And because of what japanese government is doing to avoid revealing truth to their own citizens. You Germans would freak out (and the rest of other western nations) if some of your people in German government actually built a church or grieving site for the fallen Nazi war criminals. Well, that is exactly what japanese government is doing as of right now. No shit they are not sorry for what they did during WWII. You have to remember that huge majority of people of that shrine are normal soldiers.
But war criminals like Hideki Tojo and masterminds behind Unit 731 are buried among them. And people pay respect to these gravesites whether they are just normal soldiers or war criminals. That is where the problem lies.
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On January 03 2012 01:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 01:00 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:53 Zocat wrote:On January 03 2012 00:46 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? They don't feel sorry about it. That's the whole point.... -_- And they shouldnt feel sorry - that's his point (and I agree). The only thing which I can agree with the post is "in fact a lot of japanese people dont even know what they did back in WWII" - that should change (if it's true and they dont learn something like that in school). Learn history - so you dont repeat the mistakes yourself. But this applies to all people - I doubt the majority of the world population knows what Japan did in WWII (i.e. it wasnt part of my curriculum). And visiting yakushini shrine that is dedicated to fallen war criminals during the imperial japan? What do you say about that? The japanese people are aware of what they did. But they don't know the full extension of it. The government knows what they did but they also have pride so they don't bow down to countries they raped. There never will be peace in East Asia because of WWII history. And because of what japanese government is doing to avoid revealing truth to their own citizens. You Germans would freak out (and the rest of other western nations) if some of your people in German government actually built a church or grieving site for the fallen Nazi war criminals. Well, that is exactly what japanese government is doing as of right now. No shit they are not sorry for what they did during WWII. You have to remember that huge majority of people of that shrine are normal soldiers. Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 01:03 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:58 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 00:28 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? It's not that the people of Japan themselves should feel sorry about it (apart from the ones who were alive and took part in the atrocities), it's the fact that the Japanese government has never officially apologized for it like Germany did and the fact that they neglect to teach it in schools. Well try to remember winners justice. Two atomic bombs to japanese cities and harsh peace treaty terms. I guess today its too late to officially apologize it. Germany suffered a much more crushing and total defeat than Japan yet still apologized and taught its citizens the horrors of its past. Perhaps it is too late for an official apology but they could at least teach their citizens about the terrible things that happened. Why? If they want to know what happened @ WWII they can easily do that. I did same thing for Finnish Civil War and other major conflicts. Though you have to remember winners history.
I know they can find out if they want to but the point is that they should be taught in school exactly what happened in the East Asia/Pacific theatre, particularly about things like Unit 731 and the things that happened in Japanese POW camps.
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On January 03 2012 01:36 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 01:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 01:00 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:53 Zocat wrote:On January 03 2012 00:46 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? They don't feel sorry about it. That's the whole point.... -_- And they shouldnt feel sorry - that's his point (and I agree). The only thing which I can agree with the post is "in fact a lot of japanese people dont even know what they did back in WWII" - that should change (if it's true and they dont learn something like that in school). Learn history - so you dont repeat the mistakes yourself. But this applies to all people - I doubt the majority of the world population knows what Japan did in WWII (i.e. it wasnt part of my curriculum). And visiting yakushini shrine that is dedicated to fallen war criminals during the imperial japan? What do you say about that? The japanese people are aware of what they did. But they don't know the full extension of it. The government knows what they did but they also have pride so they don't bow down to countries they raped. There never will be peace in East Asia because of WWII history. And because of what japanese government is doing to avoid revealing truth to their own citizens. You Germans would freak out (and the rest of other western nations) if some of your people in German government actually built a church or grieving site for the fallen Nazi war criminals. Well, that is exactly what japanese government is doing as of right now. No shit they are not sorry for what they did during WWII. You have to remember that huge majority of people of that shrine are normal soldiers. On January 03 2012 01:03 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:58 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 00:28 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? It's not that the people of Japan themselves should feel sorry about it (apart from the ones who were alive and took part in the atrocities), it's the fact that the Japanese government has never officially apologized for it like Germany did and the fact that they neglect to teach it in schools. Well try to remember winners justice. Two atomic bombs to japanese cities and harsh peace treaty terms. I guess today its too late to officially apologize it. Germany suffered a much more crushing and total defeat than Japan yet still apologized and taught its citizens the horrors of its past. Perhaps it is too late for an official apology but they could at least teach their citizens about the terrible things that happened. Why? If they want to know what happened @ WWII they can easily do that. I did same thing for Finnish Civil War and other major conflicts. Though you have to remember winners history. I know they can find out if they want to but the point is that they should be taught in school exactly what happened in the East Asia/Pacific theatre in schools, particularly about things like Unit 731 and the things that happened in Japanese POW camps.
I still ask why? What good does it do to know what kind of experiments did Unit 731 do or POW camps? Is it your aim to make them feel sorry?
War is over. How has losing side done after that? They had no wars, but winning side has. Why?
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On January 03 2012 02:19 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 01:36 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 01:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 01:00 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:53 Zocat wrote:On January 03 2012 00:46 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? They don't feel sorry about it. That's the whole point.... -_- And they shouldnt feel sorry - that's his point (and I agree). The only thing which I can agree with the post is "in fact a lot of japanese people dont even know what they did back in WWII" - that should change (if it's true and they dont learn something like that in school). Learn history - so you dont repeat the mistakes yourself. But this applies to all people - I doubt the majority of the world population knows what Japan did in WWII (i.e. it wasnt part of my curriculum). And visiting yakushini shrine that is dedicated to fallen war criminals during the imperial japan? What do you say about that? The japanese people are aware of what they did. But they don't know the full extension of it. The government knows what they did but they also have pride so they don't bow down to countries they raped. There never will be peace in East Asia because of WWII history. And because of what japanese government is doing to avoid revealing truth to their own citizens. You Germans would freak out (and the rest of other western nations) if some of your people in German government actually built a church or grieving site for the fallen Nazi war criminals. Well, that is exactly what japanese government is doing as of right now. No shit they are not sorry for what they did during WWII. You have to remember that huge majority of people of that shrine are normal soldiers. On January 03 2012 01:03 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:58 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 00:28 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? It's not that the people of Japan themselves should feel sorry about it (apart from the ones who were alive and took part in the atrocities), it's the fact that the Japanese government has never officially apologized for it like Germany did and the fact that they neglect to teach it in schools. Well try to remember winners justice. Two atomic bombs to japanese cities and harsh peace treaty terms. I guess today its too late to officially apologize it. Germany suffered a much more crushing and total defeat than Japan yet still apologized and taught its citizens the horrors of its past. Perhaps it is too late for an official apology but they could at least teach their citizens about the terrible things that happened. Why? If they want to know what happened @ WWII they can easily do that. I did same thing for Finnish Civil War and other major conflicts. Though you have to remember winners history. I know they can find out if they want to but the point is that they should be taught in school exactly what happened in the East Asia/Pacific theatre in schools, particularly about things like Unit 731 and the things that happened in Japanese POW camps. I still ask why? What good does it do to know what kind of experiments did Unit 731 do or POW camps? Is it your aim to make them feel sorry? War is over. How has losing side done after that? They had no wars, but winning side has. Why?
I just think it's something that should be acknowledged and remembered, it's part of their recent history and hopefully a reminder to not let anything like that happen again, not something to be swept under the carpet and conveniently forgotten about.
And as for what you're saying about the winners of the war continuing to fight wars, someone has to take responsibility and stand up for what's right in this world.
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On January 03 2012 02:27 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 02:19 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 01:36 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 01:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 01:00 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:53 Zocat wrote:On January 03 2012 00:46 kaisen wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? They don't feel sorry about it. That's the whole point.... -_- And they shouldnt feel sorry - that's his point (and I agree). The only thing which I can agree with the post is "in fact a lot of japanese people dont even know what they did back in WWII" - that should change (if it's true and they dont learn something like that in school). Learn history - so you dont repeat the mistakes yourself. But this applies to all people - I doubt the majority of the world population knows what Japan did in WWII (i.e. it wasnt part of my curriculum). And visiting yakushini shrine that is dedicated to fallen war criminals during the imperial japan? What do you say about that? The japanese people are aware of what they did. But they don't know the full extension of it. The government knows what they did but they also have pride so they don't bow down to countries they raped. There never will be peace in East Asia because of WWII history. And because of what japanese government is doing to avoid revealing truth to their own citizens. You Germans would freak out (and the rest of other western nations) if some of your people in German government actually built a church or grieving site for the fallen Nazi war criminals. Well, that is exactly what japanese government is doing as of right now. No shit they are not sorry for what they did during WWII. You have to remember that huge majority of people of that shrine are normal soldiers. On January 03 2012 01:03 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:58 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 03 2012 00:28 jello_biafra wrote:On January 03 2012 00:25 Too_MuchZerg wrote:On January 02 2012 23:07 white_horse wrote:
The really sad thing is that japan today aren't even sorry for what they did. In fact a lot of japanese people don't even know what they did back in WWII. Germany makes the usage of the swastika illegal and they are totally apologetic about it so they get my respect. I think its unfair to blame the current generation of japanese people because it isn't their fault but I can totally understand if koreans or chinese never forgive japan even if the japanese government today suddenly made a full blown apology on the scale that germany did. They did too many bad things. How long does losing side needs to feel sorry about it? It's not that the people of Japan themselves should feel sorry about it (apart from the ones who were alive and took part in the atrocities), it's the fact that the Japanese government has never officially apologized for it like Germany did and the fact that they neglect to teach it in schools. Well try to remember winners justice. Two atomic bombs to japanese cities and harsh peace treaty terms. I guess today its too late to officially apologize it. Germany suffered a much more crushing and total defeat than Japan yet still apologized and taught its citizens the horrors of its past. Perhaps it is too late for an official apology but they could at least teach their citizens about the terrible things that happened. Why? If they want to know what happened @ WWII they can easily do that. I did same thing for Finnish Civil War and other major conflicts. Though you have to remember winners history. I know they can find out if they want to but the point is that they should be taught in school exactly what happened in the East Asia/Pacific theatre in schools, particularly about things like Unit 731 and the things that happened in Japanese POW camps. I still ask why? What good does it do to know what kind of experiments did Unit 731 do or POW camps? Is it your aim to make them feel sorry? War is over. How has losing side done after that? They had no wars, but winning side has. Why? I just think it's something that should be acknowledged and remembered, it's part of their recent history and hopefully a reminder to not let anything like that happen again, not something to be swept under the carpet and conveniently forgotten about. And as for what you're saying about the winners of the war continuing to fight wars, someone has to take responsibility and stand up for what's right in this world.
With all the talk about Nazi and Japanese human experimentation, its worth reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_experimentation_in_the_United_States, particularly the various radiation experiments.
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On January 02 2012 16:41 gchan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 12:51 mcc wrote:On December 31 2011 05:34 LaughingTulkas wrote:On December 30 2011 12:16 jello_biafra wrote:On December 30 2011 12:14 Feartheguru wrote:On December 30 2011 02:14 RvB wrote:On December 29 2011 07:46 FecalFrown wrote:On December 28 2011 04:15 Fruscainte wrote: Under the hand of an actually no mentally handicapped leader, Germany would have and, under every category, SHOULD have won World War 2. They had better technology, a better fighting spirit, and all that jazz. It's just...ugh, Hitler made some pretty stupid fucking decisions. Except by the end America had nukes. An absolute trump card IMO. Better technology was only partly true and by the end of the war the allied had the better technlogy. Take for example the spitfire, it was as good if not better than the German planes. You cannot possibly argue that the spitfire was better than Germany's first generation jet aircraft, despite their many drawbacks. Also the Panther cost only 1.5-2x what a Sherman costs and typically 1 Panther = 5 Shermans in combat Unfortunately for them though even though the difference in costs were so little you were still far more likely to have 5 Shermans than a Panther on any given day. Also the RAF had a jet fighter by the war's end too, the jet engine was invented in the UK. Also, to the guy that said Nazi Germany should have won WW2, they had no chance really, just take a look at this map and consider that the allies had control of the oceans too. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0ZLlX.png) Dark Green: Allies before the attack on Pearl Harbor, including colonies and occupied countries. Light Green: Allied countries that entered the war after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Blue: Axis Powers and their colonies Gray: Neutral countries during WWII Dark green dots represent countries that initially were neutral but during the war were annexed by the USSR Light green dots represent countries that later in the war changed from the Axis to the Allies Blue dots represent countries that after being conquered by the Axis Powers, became puppets of those (Vichy France and several French colonies, Croatia) From an economic and pure number standpoint, of course you are correct, the Axis had no chance. What I think you are overlooking to some degree is simply the human factor. The psychology of war is often much more important than the physics of war, and here I believe the Axis had a slightly greater chance than perhaps you are giving them. The blitzkrieg really works not because you blow up everything that the opponent has, but because you paralyze them and defeat them through manuever, and then you win without having to fight (as much). The fall of France is particularly instructive in this. The army of France was thought to be the strongest in the world at the time of the war, and although it performed badly, it was not physically destroyed when France fell. It was; however, soundly beaten psychologically. The French simply lost the will to fight after being out-maneuvered. This same phenomenon could have occurred in Russia, if Hitler had made some different decisions. The Russian counter attack that was so devastating might never had occurred given a swift fall of the capital complete with the capture or rendering ineffective of the major functions of government. The Russian people, instead seeing the mighty German army stall (the one that had just overrun Europe) might have seen its continued and rapid success and lost heart. And without Russia in the War when Pearl Harbor happens, things become a lot more complicated. Africa would almost assuredly be lost, along with the vital Suez Canal connecting Britain to its colonies. Italy's navy might be actually put to decent use. Air power than was used in Russia would now be free for operations in the Mediterranean, or a renewed Battle of Britain. Each success weakens the will of the defenders to fight. Anyway, I think the issue is a little more murky than you suggest simply because economics and "numbers" aren't the only factor at play here. Most of what you wrote is actually incorrect. France lost because they were militarily defeated, not because they "lost the will to fight" , whatever that cliche means. Blitzkrieg worked in Poland and France, but could never have worked in the same vein in Russia just simply because of scales involved. There was no way for Germans to win in the East at all, no matter what decisions of Hitler's you change. There was no way to fix the biggest problem of logistics and industrial power. It is no accident that Germans ended their push where they did, they were at the farthest possible distance they could actually fight the war logistically with any reasonable efficiency. It is actually more likely that Germans did much better than they should, oftentimes thanks to problems on the Soviet side. So no, Germans on the Eastern front did not underperfom much, much more likely they actually overperformed compared to reasonable expectations. Only completely unexplained surrender by Soviet leadership could have changed that, but Soviets were never really too close to even thinking about that. As for the "human factor" you try to employ, no, in case of such economic disparity as was the case here, long total war is always decided purely by industrial might and no other factors matter in determining who wins. And this was a total war for all major parties concerned. I'd argue that Germans could have taken the East if they held off Operation Barbarossa until the Spring of 1942 or even 1943--once they had secured oil from the Middle East as well as rare mineral/rubber resources from central/southern Africa. There was no indication that the USSR would have broken the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
Postponing Barbarossa would end up only making sure Germans would not advance even half of what they did. Red army was in process of recuperating after Stalin's purges and was gaining strength extremely quickly as they actually suspected that the war will come. Spring 1942 might not have made that much difference, but probably would. 1943 would be completely disastrous for Germans as by that time officer ranks in Red Army should be replenished with more competent officers and T-34 would be in fullscale deployment and fullscale production and being much better tank than what Germans had would have much bigger impact than in 1941. People often underestimate the impact Stalin's purges had on Red Army. Just a sidenote, before the first purges Red army was at the front of tactical innovations and combined arms operations, far ahaed even of Germans.
As for Germans securing Middle East, their victory there seems as far-fetched as the one in the East, how actually would they achieve it ? They suffered the similar problems there as in Russia. Their problem was not even as much lack of resources at that point but logistics. How are they going to supply bigger army in Africa if they had problem supplying small Rommel's force as it is.
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On January 03 2012 02:19 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
I still ask why? What good does it do to know what kind of experiments did Unit 731 do or POW camps? Is it your aim to make them feel sorry?
War is over. How has losing side done after that? They had no wars, but winning side has. Why?
Meh, to remember is the very purpose of history. If you don't think a nation should remember that their army used Chinese peasants as guinea pigs, treating them like kettle (washing the unconscious bodies with cold water and a hard brush on an aluminium table), then you simply don't belong to this thread (which is about history, after all).
Should I add that relatives of those who suffered those crimes are alive and want Japan to stop denying the facts? Their will alone is a good reason.
Not long ago, a Japanese history teacher received death threats after lecturing his students about war crimes in Japan. If you think this is normal...
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On January 03 2012 03:17 mcc wrote:
People often underestimate the impact Stalin's purges had on Red Army. Just a sidenote, before the first purges Red army was at the front of tactical innovations and combined arms operations, far ahaed even of Germans.
Actually, people assume they had a strong negative impact, but some historians actually believe that while it did hinder the Red Army's strenght on the short term, it allowed new, dynamic, completely loyal and modern officers to take over, reinforcing the entire body on a longer period.
Old officers unaware of novelties often were the cause of painful, confusing defeats (1870 French-Prussian war, 1914 massacres, 1940 French-German conflict).
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Has USA apologised to japan for dropping the two A-bombs? History is told by the winners point of view yo.
Brazil has never apologised to paraguay for what we did to them during the paraguayan war, and if you think what the japanese did was bad, you should look this war up. Brazil killed 80% of the paraguayan population, a lot was due to disease but you want to know something that is fucked up? Before the war Dom Pedro was very criticized. So even after Dom pedro knew the war was over, he continued to kill paraguayans, because having a common enemy united the population under his banner. Do I feel sorry about it? Not a little bit. I can simpathize with paraguayans, but I don't feel like I have to apologize, because I never killed anyone.
Also, here's a list of apologies by the japanese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
They should teach what has happened in their schools though.
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On January 03 2012 08:41 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 02:19 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
I still ask why? What good does it do to know what kind of experiments did Unit 731 do or POW camps? Is it your aim to make them feel sorry?
War is over. How has losing side done after that? They had no wars, but winning side has. Why? Meh, to remember is the very purpose of history. If you don't think a nation should remember that their army used Chinese peasants as guinea pigs, treating them like kettle (washing the unconscious bodies with cold water and a hard brush on an aluminium table), then you simply don't belong to this thread (which is about history, after all). Should I add that relatives of those who suffered those crimes are alive and want Japan to stop denying the facts? Their will alone is a good reason. Not long ago, a Japanese history teacher received death threats after lecturing his students about war crimes in Japan. If you think this is normal...
When talking about History and teaching history to students its different. These war crimes are usually shown on TV documents which they belong. But does ordinary student really need to know all the killing methods and experiments? No. Usually World War II is taught certain order (at least my time it was). 1. Why and how it started. 2. Which countries were involved. 3. Key battles / turning points. 4. End of war and cost of it (deaths and such).
Of course losing and winning side has "different" history about the war. We might talk about Finnish war heroes while Russians talk theirs and say that our heroes are war criminals. Just remember history is taught differently each country and you cant change it. Perhaps you should take some lessons from losing side schools/teachers to get idea why its different.
This is a guess but I bet France teaches World War II more France point of view. More teaching about resistance fighters and brutality of Germans? What we are told about here at Finland? Only small details like German occupied France and then they fight it back with help of British / USA soldiers (and others smaller countries). Is it really necessary to know how Germans killed resistance fighters (executed or tortured etc) or how resistance fighters killed German soldiers. War is never clean, its dirty.
When my teacher said that there was war crimes involved each side its not his/her thing to go through these things, its up to you.
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If the forum must search, in hindsight, for a 'what if' that allows Germany to have won the war it should be considered that, to my mind at least and this is my 2 cents worth, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was Hitler's 1st major error of judgement.
The Polish government was sympathetic to nazi doctrines, being anti-communist and anti-semitic pseudo nazis themselves, and could surely have been pressured into ceding the Danzig corridor and allowing access for a full strength, 1939 or 1940, attack on a grossly under-prepared USSR.
I don't think that, after the intimidation of the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia, there was a certain requirement to invade Poland in order to attack the communist enemy that Hitler loathed so much.
What was required was the application of diplomatic pressure that ensured the security of Germany's western regions and the further passive compliance of Britain, France and Poland.
Poland could be annexed later, France and Britain humiliated later, but leaving the USSR to grow stronger was a mistake.
Upsetting Britain and France out of their appeasement strategy was a gross underestimation of their domestic political liabilities.
But would they have really declared against Germany's invasion of the USSR if Polish sovereignty remained, even if only superficially, intact? I think, most probably, not.
Both countries had strong, politically active and influential internal nazi factions to support the invasion.
And neither seemed to be much interested in attacking Germany even when 70% of its army was engaged in Poland; which was surely the best time to attack and at least level the industrial complexes of the Saar.
It seems to me that the western campaign and the conquest of France served to delay the inevitable invasion of the USSR long enough for the USSR to become strong enough to resist and depleted Germany of men and materiel that were needed for a victory in the east.
But, even under this best case scenario of earlier and stronger invasion, I doubt that victory could have been achieved against the USSR by nazi Germany.
My doubts stem from the nazi's oft demonstrated lethal contempt for all untermensch.
Their unquestioning and unfailing racism against the Slavic peoples transformed a military campaign into a war of extermination that ensured that, even when defeated, Germany's enemies remained enemies to the death.
The peoples of the USSR understood that they were not fighting to retain their autonomy or sense of national pride nor their ancient attachment to the land.
There would be no, further down the road and eventually, benevolent occupational government; only slave labour, starvation and a killing pit, for all Slavs, would follow the nation's defeat.
It seems to me that nazi doctrine ensured that the USSR would fight to the last tooth and fingernail accepting all losses as a price in blood for the survival of the living.
It was the nazi goal, equally in 1939 and 1941, to cleanse the captured territories of inhabitants making way for German settlement.
So, the Slavic peoples of the USSR could never capitulate, never surrender, nazi ideology put them in the invincible position of 'victory or death'.
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On January 03 2012 08:46 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 03:17 mcc wrote:
People often underestimate the impact Stalin's purges had on Red Army. Just a sidenote, before the first purges Red army was at the front of tactical innovations and combined arms operations, far ahaed even of Germans. Actually, people assume they had a strong negative impact, but some historians actually believe that while it did hinder the Red Army's strenght on the short term, it allowed new, dynamic, completely loyal and modern officers to take over, reinforcing the entire body on a longer period. Old officers unaware of novelties often were the cause of painful, confusing defeats (1870 French-Prussian war, 1914 massacres, 1940 French-German conflict).
If you actually read the rest of my post I was saying they had short term negative impact, but that short term impact was still in effect in 1941, so how is it in any way against what I wrote ? Short term negative impact can be strong and detrimental if that short period coincides with the war you are waging, which is the case here.
As for the second part of your objection it is only partially true, in case of Red Army they already had new, dynamic and modern officers that were developing new doctrines that I was talking about and they were removed in the purges, not only the old officers.
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USSR's victory can at least partially be contributed to Western aid. But OP is right: the Western Front was basically meh.
EDIT: I am not sure if anyone brought this up yet, but another thing that fucked Hitler up was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Hitler originally wanted simultaneous invasion of USSR with Japan, but Japan wanted dominance of the Pacifics and had very little remaining interests in Asia. It is known that after the German invasion, one of Stalin's top agenda was to make sure there were no simultaneous attacks from the Eastern side - there weren't, and Stalin was able to move the Soviet industries to the far east, safe from the German bombers.
There were many reasons for the cold relationships between Japan and Germany at the time. One of the main reasons was that Germany between the two World Wars was a strong ally of Republic of China. In fact, one of the reasons Japan met stronger-than-expected resistance in Nanking was precisely because of the German-trained elite Chinese troops there. The German-Japanese relationship only warmed up after the Chinese were in essence defeated.
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The cool thing about this thread is that it's on an international forum where you get to see the war from a German angle with some of the contributions of posters in this thread. Even hearing about stories from posters about their relatives as POWs, be they Russian, French etc. is pretty interesting as well.
Definitely brings a new light to the topic considering most of us have always been taught about WWII from an Allied perspective and lens.
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EPT
