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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On December 28 2011 10:40 Fruscainte wrote: Rommell Come at me. He may be a douche, but don't bash CoH  Rommel is kind of overrated in the eyes of the west. If you asked most military commanders at the time they would have said Von manstein. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:36 CrimsonLotus wrote: The germans also had an inferior program for pilot training and promotion. Oh really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces It can't have been that bad compared to the training of the brits. | ||
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esperanto
Germany357 Posts
Its weird but you want to know why people you love that much, like your grandparents, participated in such a horrible system of fear and murder. My grandmother grew up in a small village, her father (if I remember correctly) joined the NSDAP in the late 1930s, they didnt care much about politics. She told me, they often made jokes about Hitler and they laughed at the 2-3 SA guys that were running around town cause those actually were loosers that only felt strong cause of the brown made-up uniform. She was a typical part of the system, member of the BDM (youth organisation for girls), active in church, singing songs they learned in school and decorating the village when a high nazi-official visit... She once told me that she actually noticed that one day all the jewish ppl from her village were gone, but she never questioned it at this time. My grandfather was an engineer, when he joined the german army his job was it to build up radio- and communicationstations. I've never asked him this, but I dont think he killed someone during the war. But at his last day of war, when his unit was already retreating, an italian partisan came around a corner and opened machinegun fire on the open truck where he and his friends were sitting in. He was hit by 2 bullets, one in his leg, one in his foot. He was never able to walk properly again after this and he got addicted to morphine for quite some time. My other grandfather was not that peacefully. He actually was born in romania but in a part where german settelers migrated to hundreds of years ago. When the war started he was young and dumb, he was really athletic and believed that cause he had "german blood" he was better and that he would have to join the fight. He joined the "Waffen-SS" when he was only 17. He got in so many battles that he actually recieved the "Nahkampfspange" in silver, a decoration for beeing really successful in alot of close combats. His unit was captured and when they were about to be brought to a gulag, he and some friends manage to flee. Later he tried to emmigrate to canada, but he couldnt when his SS-tattoo was found. He died before I was born, so I was never able to ask him questions. I dont know if I could have forgiven him for what he had done. His later wife (my other grandma) was a kid when the war was over. She lived in a german region that is now poland. She and her family had to flee from the russian army. On their escape she and her sisters had to expierience horrible things. Only a few from her once big family made it. Untill today she wont tell me how her father died and I have the feeling I dont want to make her remember. I know in this thread ppl often talk about WW2 from the strategical point of view, I hope you dont mind, that I brought a little personal family-story in this. When you talk about losses in civilians and soldiers, please dont forget that you talk about actual ppl not just numbers. The lessons this war should teach us all is not a strategical one, but the responsibility to never let something like this happen again. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:36 CrimsonLotus wrote: And that's exactly why the Japanese had 0 chance of winning... It doesn't matter if they sunk all the pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor or if they win at Midway, the ability of the US to replace those losses was far, far greater than that of Japan. The US managed to defeat the japanese while dedicating most of it's resources to the war on Europe, if Germany hadn't declared war on the US the Pacific theater would have lasted two years tops. Exactly how? The Kriegsmarine was always very inferior to the Royal Navy, and during the Battle of Britain the British made a lot more planes and suffered fewer losses: http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/BoB/stat.html The germans also had an inferior program for pilot training and promotion. So, they had an inferior navy and didn't have a chance to archieve air superiority. Let say the germans somehow manage to land a few divisions on Great Britain, that's great, but how do they supply them exactly? Considering they bombed London to smithereens, I think your perception of who had air control during the entire war is somewhat sketchy. Afaik Germany had periods of air control, especially early on in the war. Even if they had a superior navy it's all about intelligence. If you manage to launch a surprise attack (such as D-day) the British wouldn't have had a snowballs chance in hell. It's as far from Normany to England as it is from England to Normany so to speak, and the Germans had Normandy for quite a while. They had their focus elsewhere though. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:36 CrimsonLotus wrote: And that's exactly why the Japanese had 0 chance of winning... It doesn't matter if they sunk all the pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor or if they win at Midway, the ability of the US to replace those losses was far, far greater than that of Japan. The US managed to defeat the japanese while dedicating most of it's resources to the war on Europe, if Germany hadn't declared war on the US the Pacific theater would have lasted two years tops. Exactly how? The Kriegsmarine was always very inferior to the Royal Navy, and during the Battle of Britain the British made a lot more planes and suffered fewer losses: http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/BoB/stat.html The germans also had an inferior program for pilot training and promotion. So, they had an inferior navy and didn't have a chance to archieve air superiority. Let say the germans somehow manage to land a few divisions on Great Britain, that's great, but how do they supply them exactly? I'm sorry, but this whole idea that Germany was a massive military juggernaut that only lost because of bad leadership is simply false. The germans lost because they where way, way over their head, faced agains three other great powers while having not one really significant ally on their side. Allied to Axis GDP ratio was over 2.0 for most of the war, the Germans never had enough oil to fuel their army, and the best chance they had to get that oil, Baku, was too deep in the Soviet Union to be a reasonable objective. Also, the germans where great at the tactical aspect of the war, but their logistics left a lot to be desireed. And most of their high tech weapons were a waste, the V Rockets had a very tiny effect compared to how much they cost, the Tiger I and Tiger II tanks where way, way too expensive and unreliable to be game changers, and the Me262 came to late, in too few number and without adequate fuel and pilots to make any difference. I did not mean to imply they were a "military juggernaut", I was simply making the point that their horrendous leadership and command structure compounded onto their military issues in devastating manners. Of course they were way in over their head, however, it's no secret that with an organized command structure and a competent leader --- they would have done FAR more damage. | ||
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CrimsonLotus
Colombia1123 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:47 SilentchiLL wrote: Oh really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces It can't have been that bad compared to the training of the brits The Luftwaffe gave preference to bomber aircraft until late in the war, so they didn't assigned their best pilot to fighters until then. The reason why the germans had so many aces was because most of their fighter planes where rather good, and faced very little opposition from the poorly trained soviet fighters using crap planes during 1941-1942. The western pilots fared a lot better against the Luftwaffe | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:57 CrimsonLotus wrote: The Luftwaffe gave preference to bomber aircraft until late in the war, so they didn't assigned their best pilot to fighters until then. The reason why the germans had so many aces was because most of their fighter planes where rather good, and faced very little opposition from the poorly trained soviet fighters using crap planes during 1941-1942. The western pilots fared a lot better against the Luftwaffe That sounds like one good argument for the point you want to make, but not like one which could stand alone. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:58 Sufficiency wrote: I think the lesson for Hitler (and for Napoleon) is that do not ever mess with the Russians. It's not even "don't mess with Russia", it's "don't mess with Russia during the fucking Winter" You'd think someone would learn that by now. That territory is literally the worst, logistically, to invade. | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
On December 28 2011 12:02 Fruscainte wrote: It's not even "don't mess with Russia", it's "don't mess with Russia during the fucking Winter" You'd think someone would learn that by now. That territory is literally the worst, logistically, to invade. It's kind of hard to work out the time frame though, to mass all the materiel required and time it so you're ready to invade by spring time. Hitler started the invasion of Russia in June IIRC, but I still doubt he would have won if he started in March. | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
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DoubleZee
Canada556 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:51 esperanto wrote: My other grandfather was not that peacefully. He actually was born in romania but in a part where german settelers migrated to hundreds of years ago. When the war started he was young and dumb, he was really athletic and believed that cause he had "german blood" he was better and that he would have to join the fight. He joined the "Waffen-SS" when he was only 17. He got in so many battles that he actually recieved the "Nahkampfspange" in silver, a decoration for beeing really successful in alot of close combats. His unit was captured and when they were about to be brought to a gulag, he and some friends manage to flee. Later he tried to emmigrate to canada, but he couldnt when his SS-tattoo was found. He died before I was born, so I was never able to ask him questions. I dont know if I could have forgiven him for what he had done. I find stories like this fascinating. From what I know about the waffen-ss it was mainly used as an elite unit to fight battles and the vast majority of the waffen-ss soldiers had nothing to do with war crimes. I hope no one takes this the wrong way but I think you should be proud of your grandfather for fighting for what he believed in and being a brave soldier. Also if you have any waffen-ss memorabilia laying around it is probably worth a fortune. I know a guy who makes a living buying/selling Nazi stuff and his biggest ticket items are waffen-ss and hitler jugend stuff. | ||
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eccokk
Germany38 Posts
The Luftwaffe gave preference to bomber aircraft until late in the war, so they didn't assigned their best pilot to fighters until then. The reason why the germans had so many aces was because most of their fighter planes where rather good, and faced very little opposition from the poorly trained soviet fighters using crap planes during 1941-1942. The western pilots fared a lot better against the Luftwaffe most of the big number aces got their "kills" in the north african fights against british spitfires actually, and while the messerschmidts where superior their is just no way in hell to get those kind of numbers without actuall skill. most of the russian airforce was bombed or captured on the ground actually, and the link even state that the german airforce did not count such as kills, only actual air to air combat. german tanks on the other hand are overrated, while being very powerfull they where slow and needed a lot of maintence which made it hard to use them in the actuall blitzkrieg strategy. the succesfull tanks in the early stages against france etc. where actually quit small and fast and very different from the famous tiger and panther models | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On December 28 2011 09:13 Fruscainte wrote: Both sides would have been fucked if it were not for the other. Stop trying to quantify "who did more" /facepalm No matter how many times people say it. Some Americans are just too deeply brainwashed/ignorant. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On December 28 2011 12:24 Feartheguru wrote: /facepalm No matter how many times people say it. Some Americans are just too deeply brainwashed/ignorant. ...That Russia would have been in deep shit without America's help both logistically (with weapons, repairs, jeeps, etc.) and militarily (on the Western Front). And that America/Britain/Canada would have been in deeper shit without Russia preoccupying like 70-80% of Germany's military? That makes me brainwashed? *confused* Do explain. Because you only make yourself out to be ignorant when you come in with a one liner going "THAT'S WRONG YOU'RE JUST AN IGNORANT AMERICAN LOL ALL AMERICANS ARE BRAINWASHED IDIOTS" | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On December 28 2011 12:28 Fruscainte wrote: Do explain. Because you only make yourself out to be ignorant when you come in with a one liner going "THAT'S WRONG YOU'RE JUST AN IGNORANT AMERICAN LOL ALL AMERICANS ARE BRAINWASHED IDIOTS" Well it's hard to argue against someone who cannot properly read but for my own entertainment I will reason with you. By D-day (Africa and Italy only forced the Germans to allocate maybe 20 divisions) the Wehrmach was defeated. I'm sure the vast majority of the people in this thread agrees with this statement and if you do then my point is already proven. After Kursk in 1943 the Soviet Union had won the East, never once did Germany launch a major offensive after this (except Spring Awakening which failed horribly as expected). By D-Day time Russia had retaken the majority of lost territory and it was obvious that the war was going to end in Russia's favour. 500 fully strengthed divisions were destroyed in Russia as well as the entire airforce and most of the tankforce, the Western allies destroyed about 150 understrengthed divisions filled with new recruits given a few weeks training. Now that we've established that, the only other influence the Western allies had was in resources. This consisted of some tens of thousands of jeeps, medium tanks and artillery (of far lower quality than those made in Russia) during the entire war compared to 60-80k tanks produced monthly in the Soviet Union. Conclusion ---> Russia did all the work, Western allies did D-Day ONLY to make sure that all of Europe is not dominated by the Soviet Union once the war was over. | ||
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bobthebo
101 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
On December 28 2011 11:19 GodOfWar wrote: Holocaust, Nanking Massacre and Unit731 were basically the most gruesome and horrific chapters in World War 2. Chinese and Jews were the biggest victims of modern history, totally insane to believe they have treated whole cultures like animals, but thats the way of those crazy emperors. The most ironic part is the Ashkenazi Jew is the number one in the world in terms of income and level of education and wield an enormous amount of power for such a minority. The other ironic part is the Chinese person will overtake the number two spot in this list of education/income (possibly first with time) and will certainly be perceived as THE most powerful ethnicity very soon. From biggest victims to some of the most influential people in the world... quite amazing. Maybe karma? (if you go for that sort of thing  ) | ||
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