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On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference.
I agree with you but the story is quite severe to my eyes nonetheless if it were true. However, I have almost no inclination to believe anything coming out of western new media on an orientalised culture (check this meaning of this word; it doesn't mean an Asian culture, it meanes an objectified culture that western or other ignorants view with a default moral highground). Islamic law and culture doesn't lack common sense contrary to western belief (since humans must have "common sense" to survive in society) so I doubt that anything except for the gaol sentence is correct here. We don't know whether it was really rape (because Shari'ah law punishes rapists extremely severely; ironically westerners would say the punishments of criminal Shari'ah law are inhumane) and the family's shame suggests that it was not truly rape. However, adultery is also a very severe crime in Shari'ah law so I understand that the woman would plead rape. I'm not really going to comment on the article further because I don't believe it but I don't have any evidence regarding it anyway.
However, making judgment on another culture's values in the name of democracy, peace and justice is the most absurd, pompous and ignorant thing that one can do. By playing to such basic human tendencies to believe that one's own normality is objectively the right or just one, America and its allies have committed a horrifying amount of crimes against humanity, genocide, whatever in the last few decades, all in the name of peace and justice. This isn't exclusive to America of course. For instance, I'm sure that Islamic extremists believe their own cause is just and infinitely more so than any western cause since their one is grounded by a divine law while western actions are driven by old men shouting in a parliamentary room. However, my point is there is no difference between the ignorant population of all cultures that prejudge the actions of another culture on the premise that their own culture is normal. For instance, an Islamic standpoint views western culture as disgusting, inhumane and evil (just like how most people here sees Islamic culture); divorce breaks a divine bond between man and woman; usury leads to greed, which is a huge temptation and motive driving bad acts; adultery is one succumbing to base instincts like base instincts to steal or murder or cannibalism (weeded out on western culture, unlike adultery).
Furthermore, Islamic law is a religious law with a divine and unquestionable source which makes it almost impossible to change (practically, it is impossible since the reinterpretation of the Shari'ah has been banned for hundreds of years now). From an objective standpoint, this makes it problematic to adjust to a new era led by western values, but this does not make it any more wrong than another law or culture. It is still correct that western culture today is led by "evil" or selfish motivations, probably more than any other era since religion (probably invented to give basic rights to everyone) is less prominent than ever. I'm actually agnostic but I can still recognise that democracy has led to a society where motivations are far more selfish and greedy than any other type of governance seen before. Democracy is practically driven by a mentality that everyone will stand for themselves and try to further their own rights while reducing their duties as much as possible, and that they will raise their voice to try to ensure that these wishes are granted, resulting in a compromise of give and take with every other member of society, except for those severely outnumbered who are then punished for their minority status in a compromised existence. It is pretty much a feudal society where the majority dominates the minority and one's place in the hierarchy depends on one's socialeconomic status. There is no guarantee of basic human rights beside those that the majority finds to be necessary to protect themselves. In this way, Islamic have been shunned and trashed in western culture to the verge of barbarism and primitivity. Thankfully, people are almost as equally narrow-minded in other cultures too; I say almost, because they actually recognise the sovereignty of other cultures as well instead of viewing them as primitive tribes that are ready to be liberated (hi America).
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On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour,
I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten.
1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then?
2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life?
3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?
Thanks
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On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:
1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then?
Do whatever suits your best interests. If it's bad in the eyes of that faith just repent and maybe pay some money and it's all good.
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Tribal traditions can't be reasoned with.
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i thought the usa went in there to bring democrazy (@_@).
religion hurt the world so deeply, i hope someday the damage it caused will be gone..
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks
 I see what you did there
My response is spoilered, since it is long.
+ Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
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On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 23:28 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:14 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:07 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:58 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:51 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:42 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference. So then CaptainCrush, what is your solution? Tell those countries Shari'a laws are wrong? Good luck. Good luck as a Dhimmi who has somehow subverted his position in their ideal islamic society and oppressed the Righteous muslims (for muslims see white people as a collective, as an entire Christian kingdom which has subjugated the muslim world for a long time). You most likely are not Christian (95% of TL-ers are not bible believing Christians). But they see you as one. And they think you're just dirt. You will be destroyed in the end. Muslims are taught from young that Islam and Allah are the truth. Everything else is false, lesser and demonic. Allah will destroy all the pigs (Jews and ChristiansWhite people) in the end. : )) Welcome to Islam You could substitute 'muslim' for 'christian' and then 'white people' for 'non-christian' and have an equally objective descreption of bible believing christians. Yes for the destruction/judgement part, no for everything else. God wants all to come to repentance. And the God of this universe is not some detached God who doesn't care about anything (islamic Allah) but one who came to earth to be ridiculed by those who sinned against Him, scourged, and pay for our sins on the cross. One whose name is Love. One who created the world in love and made us in His image. That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8. I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. Let me ask you my friend 3 questions: 1. Have you known for yourself by reading the gospels, Jesus the God-man who came to save us? 2.Would the Jesus of the Gospels (God Himself come to earth) be happy with the Catholic church? (Or any church which is so filled with hate, bigotry, corruption and godlessness) 3. Have you met a genuine follower of Jesus Christ and seen the love of Jesus in him? (I know Sweden is currently <1% Bible-believing/practicing Christian) 1) Reading and studying religious texts is part of the general education of everyone in Denmark, so yes I have. 2) not for me to say, but probably not 3)Yes, they knock on my door occasionally but usually leave when I explain I don't believe in magic My question for you would then be, why clang on to the 'Christian' tag? The basic Christian message has a lot to offer and the world would probably be a better place if more people lived by that. But then just call it a philosophy. Just say that you are a nice person or a friendly and loving person. If you insist those teachings comes directly from god you are only setting yourself up for all kinds of unnecesary dificulties. Not to mention that from the belief in an omnipotent god follows the fact that he must be the guy personally killing thousands in Tsunamies when he's not busy giving aids to babies in Africa. Also next time you see him tell him "fuck you" from me for inventing the flu virus. That shit gets me every year. Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : ((((((( I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Since no one else ever tought me correctly, will you tell me why God™ created the HIV virus then? Seems quite contradictory to this whole "cares for you" thing
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Sounds pretty wrong to me. Law system always will have flaws T.T
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Must be fun being a Women in these countries if she reported she got raped she wouldn't be able to married however if she was silent she would have been fine if she didn't get pregnant. Something similar happened in another Arab country a few teenage boys got raped by older men reported it and got tossed in jail for homosexuality while their rapist who were known by the victims had no charges placed on them.
This is a religious issue 4 people have to be present of said rape to be able to report rape in a lot of these Muslim counties just think how few rapist would be in jail if that was the only thing that mattered in your country.
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This is everyday practice in shit countries. She was wise not to report it or she would likely have been stoned as an adulteress, having "seduced" the father of her child.
GG legal system.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On November 24 2011 00:05 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:28 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:14 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:07 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:58 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:51 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:42 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference. So then CaptainCrush, what is your solution? Tell those countries Shari'a laws are wrong? Good luck. Good luck as a Dhimmi who has somehow subverted his position in their ideal islamic society and oppressed the Righteous muslims (for muslims see white people as a collective, as an entire Christian kingdom which has subjugated the muslim world for a long time). You most likely are not Christian (95% of TL-ers are not bible believing Christians). But they see you as one. And they think you're just dirt. You will be destroyed in the end. Muslims are taught from young that Islam and Allah are the truth. Everything else is false, lesser and demonic. Allah will destroy all the pigs (Jews and ChristiansWhite people) in the end. : )) Welcome to Islam You could substitute 'muslim' for 'christian' and then 'white people' for 'non-christian' and have an equally objective descreption of bible believing christians. Yes for the destruction/judgement part, no for everything else. God wants all to come to repentance. And the God of this universe is not some detached God who doesn't care about anything (islamic Allah) but one who came to earth to be ridiculed by those who sinned against Him, scourged, and pay for our sins on the cross. One whose name is Love. One who created the world in love and made us in His image. That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8. I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. Let me ask you my friend 3 questions: 1. Have you known for yourself by reading the gospels, Jesus the God-man who came to save us? 2.Would the Jesus of the Gospels (God Himself come to earth) be happy with the Catholic church? (Or any church which is so filled with hate, bigotry, corruption and godlessness) 3. Have you met a genuine follower of Jesus Christ and seen the love of Jesus in him? (I know Sweden is currently <1% Bible-believing/practicing Christian) 1) Reading and studying religious texts is part of the general education of everyone in Denmark, so yes I have. 2) not for me to say, but probably not 3)Yes, they knock on my door occasionally but usually leave when I explain I don't believe in magic My question for you would then be, why clang on to the 'Christian' tag? The basic Christian message has a lot to offer and the world would probably be a better place if more people lived by that. But then just call it a philosophy. Just say that you are a nice person or a friendly and loving person. If you insist those teachings comes directly from god you are only setting yourself up for all kinds of unnecesary dificulties. Not to mention that from the belief in an omnipotent god follows the fact that he must be the guy personally killing thousands in Tsunamies when he's not busy giving aids to babies in Africa. Also next time you see him tell him "fuck you" from me for inventing the flu virus. That shit gets me every year. Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : ((((((( I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin. Since no one else ever tought me correctly, will you tell me why God™ created the HIV virus then? Seems quite contradictory to this whole "cares for you" thing
Hi Vorenius, I've spoilered the response because it is too long.
For the classic netizens who want a TL:DR this is it: God created the world, and it was good (Gen 1-2). There was no death, no suffering, no sin, no shame. And then sin came. How? Through the fall (Gen 3). HIV? God did not create sin. Man did. God did not intend for sin to be part of His creation. He created it good. Man chose to wreck it. There are plenty of viruses which have wreaked havoc on humanity. The world is broken. The creation is groaning under the corruption of sin. The creation itself eagerly awaits renewal (Romans ch8). God will renew all things and sin and suffering will be done away with.
+ Show Spoiler +
The fundamentals of Christian faith can be summed up in this:
Creation -- The Fall -- The consequences of the fall through human history -- The first coming of Christ, His death and resurrection -- the spread of his kingdom on earth through the gospel of love -- His second coming.
The HIV virus enters the world stage at the level of "the fall". Reading Genesis chapters 1-3 will cover the very most fundamental truths of the Christian faith.
Genesis 1: God created the world in six days. He proclaims "And it was very good". There was no evil. And creation itself was just as God wanted it to be. Man and Woman were created in the image of the Triune God. We are special. We are like God. And it's pretty awesome.
Genesis 2:
Adam and Eve were living under the authority of God, provided by God with food, water and work. Adam and Eve were to propagate and rule over this beautiful earth which God has created for them and their descendants. They were going to live forever and rule this earth forever. But God gave them everything and permitted all fruits to be eaten in this bountiful garden. Bar one. This specific tree you are not to eat from, God tells them. Why? "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Simple right? So we thought. And Satan drives a wedge of mistrust between Adam, Eve and God. And they disobey God. Disobedience towards authority is sin. Not just any authority, but God who richly provided them with everything and breathed life into their nostrils.
Thus knowing the consequences (for God had told them earlier if they ate from this tree they will surely die), Man suffered the curse. Genesis ch3 then goes on and describes suffering, pain and death entering mankind. Diseases, decay and even natural disasters entered. Animals began to eat other animals. Pain and suffering entered when before the fall, there was only goodness.
HIV virus is just another example of the suffering which humanity and the ENTIRE creation is plagued with because of the sin of man in disobeying God. The consequences were clear: if you ate from that tree (when there were plenty of other sweet fruits to eat from), then you will die. Unfortunately they did and suffering entered the entire creation.
But there is hope for renewal and God has already begun it at the cross where Jesus overcame death. The new heavens and new earth are coming, as well as the final judgement when all evil will be punished and a perfect, sinless world will be restored with Man rightfully ruling it under God.
Fairytale or Truth? Your life is going to go for another 80 years at max (I assume TL-ers are 20 years old). You're going to find out one way or another. My appeal to all of you is to find out about the Loving God who came to earth as a Man, to be ridiculed by those He came to save. Find out about Jesus, the Christ. Learn the love of God for mankind and repent from your ways. We are all evil before God, but He is not a unforgiving judge. Forgiveness and freedom stands at the door.
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7 Pages in and we're already in a full fledged religious debate?
Must be a record.
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On November 24 2011 00:23 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 00:05 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:28 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 23:14 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 23:07 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:58 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:51 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:42 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:
[quote]
In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference. So then CaptainCrush, what is your solution? Tell those countries Shari'a laws are wrong? Good luck. Good luck as a Dhimmi who has somehow subverted his position in their ideal islamic society and oppressed the Righteous muslims (for muslims see white people as a collective, as an entire Christian kingdom which has subjugated the muslim world for a long time). You most likely are not Christian (95% of TL-ers are not bible believing Christians). But they see you as one. And they think you're just dirt. You will be destroyed in the end. Muslims are taught from young that Islam and Allah are the truth. Everything else is false, lesser and demonic. Allah will destroy all the pigs (Jews and ChristiansWhite people) in the end. : )) Welcome to Islam You could substitute 'muslim' for 'christian' and then 'white people' for 'non-christian' and have an equally objective descreption of bible believing christians. Yes for the destruction/judgement part, no for everything else. God wants all to come to repentance. And the God of this universe is not some detached God who doesn't care about anything (islamic Allah) but one who came to earth to be ridiculed by those who sinned against Him, scourged, and pay for our sins on the cross. One whose name is Love. One who created the world in love and made us in His image. That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8. I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. Let me ask you my friend 3 questions: 1. Have you known for yourself by reading the gospels, Jesus the God-man who came to save us? 2.Would the Jesus of the Gospels (God Himself come to earth) be happy with the Catholic church? (Or any church which is so filled with hate, bigotry, corruption and godlessness) 3. Have you met a genuine follower of Jesus Christ and seen the love of Jesus in him? (I know Sweden is currently <1% Bible-believing/practicing Christian) 1) Reading and studying religious texts is part of the general education of everyone in Denmark, so yes I have. 2) not for me to say, but probably not 3)Yes, they knock on my door occasionally but usually leave when I explain I don't believe in magic My question for you would then be, why clang on to the 'Christian' tag? The basic Christian message has a lot to offer and the world would probably be a better place if more people lived by that. But then just call it a philosophy. Just say that you are a nice person or a friendly and loving person. If you insist those teachings comes directly from god you are only setting yourself up for all kinds of unnecesary dificulties. Not to mention that from the belief in an omnipotent god follows the fact that he must be the guy personally killing thousands in Tsunamies when he's not busy giving aids to babies in Africa. Also next time you see him tell him "fuck you" from me for inventing the flu virus. That shit gets me every year. Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : ((((((( I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin. Since no one else ever tought me correctly, will you tell me why God™ created the HIV virus then? Seems quite contradictory to this whole "cares for you" thing Hi Vorenius, I've spoilered the response because it is too long. For the classic netizens who want a TL:DR this is it: God created the world, and it was good (Gen 1-2). There was no death, no suffering, no sin, no shame. And then sin came. How? Through the fall (Gen 3). HIV? God did not create sin. Man did. God did not intend for sin to be part of His creation. He created it good. Man chose to wreck it. There are plenty of viruses which have wreaked havoc on humanity. The world is broken. The creation is groaning under the corruption of sin. The creation itself eagerly awaits renewal (Romans ch8). God will renew all things and sin and suffering will be done away with. + Show Spoiler +
The fundamentals of Christian faith can be summed up in this:
Creation -- The Fall -- The consequences of the fall through human history -- The first coming of Christ, His death and resurrection -- the spread of his kingdom on earth through the gospel of love -- His second coming.
The HIV virus enters the world stage at the level of "the fall". Reading Genesis chapters 1-3 will cover the very most fundamental truths of the Christian faith.
Genesis 1: God created the world in six days. He proclaims "And it was very good". There was no evil. And creation itself was just as God wanted it to be. Man and Woman were created in the image of the Triune God. We are special. We are like God. And it's pretty awesome.
Genesis 2:
Adam and Eve were living under the authority of God, provided by God with food, water and work. Adam and Eve were to propagate and rule over this beautiful earth which God has created for them and their descendants. They were going to live forever and rule this earth forever. But God gave them everything and permitted all fruits to be eaten in this bountiful garden. Bar one. This specific tree you are not to eat from, God tells them. Why? "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Simple right? So we thought. And Satan drives a wedge of mistrust between Adam, Eve and God. And they disobey God. Disobedience towards authority is sin. Not just any authority, but God who richly provided them with everything and breathed life into their nostrils.
Thus knowing the consequences (for God had told them earlier if they ate from this tree they will surely die), Man suffered the curse. Genesis ch3 then goes on and describes suffering, pain and death entering mankind. Diseases, decay and even natural disasters entered. Animals began to eat other animals. Pain and suffering entered when before the fall, there was only goodness.
HIV virus is just another example of the suffering which humanity and the ENTIRE creation is plagued with because of the sin of man in disobeying God. The consequences were clear: if you ate from that tree (when there were plenty of other sweet fruits to eat from), then you will die. Unfortunately they did and suffering entered the entire creation.
But there is hope for renewal and God has already begun it at the cross where Jesus overcame death. The new heavens and new earth are coming, as well as the final judgement when all evil will be punished and a perfect, sinless world will be restored with Man rightfully ruling it under God.
Fairytale or Truth? Your life is going to go for another 80 years at max (I assume TL-ers are 20 years old). You're going to find out one way or another. My appeal to all of you is to find out about the Loving God who came to earth as a Man, to be ridiculed by those He came to save. Find out about Jesus, the Christ. Learn the love of God for mankind and repent from your ways. We are all evil before God, but He is not a unforgiving judge. Forgiveness and freedom stands at the door.
Pretty shitty deal that we get shafted because Adam and Eve fucked up.
Deuteronomy 24:16 notwithstanding?
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On November 24 2011 00:04 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 23:43 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 23:36 JesusOurSaviour wrote:
Mandatory education of religious texts often puts people off religion. Because they do-not-teach-relationship-with-God and depravity of man. If they truly taught you both of those central themes of God's truth (relationship with God <3 + depravity of man) and actually tried to answer the big questions students ask (i.e. Why is there suffering? What is the devil? Why the devil? Why the fall? Why the cross?), then you guys at least would be informed unbelievers. Unfortunately, most people are unbelievers and uninformed. : (((((((
I can't say "F!@# you" to God for you. You need to say that yourself. And then you see his response to you is not punishment as one expects, but love and forgiveness. He is your Father and He cares for you more than you can ever know. It is sad people have distorted God so much when Jesus was all about loving the lost and punishing those who refuse to admit their sin.
Hi JesusOurSaviour, I'm interested in those points you brought up. I hope you could enlighten. 1. How should we approach religious/Catholic belief then? 2. What does faith teach us about suffering, a fundamental function of life? 3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction? Thanks I see what you did there My response is spoilered, since it is long. + Show Spoiler +
1. You need to take a look at every religious leader, every institutionalised religion and ask yourself: He says he is christian. But does he follow what his God teaches? Or He says he is muslim. Does he follow the pillars of islam?
So if the catholic church claims to be the authority of God, yet puts Christ' name in utter shame, hardening the hearts of the entire european spiritual climate, then what in the name of Satan are they doing? With this in mind, we must not judge individual catholics, of whom there are genuine followers of Christ Jesus and live a biblical-mandated life of love and gospel-outreach.
2. Faith in Jesus Christ is the answer to all the problems of this world. Don't laugh yet, listen.
Suffering was not part of creation. "And he saw that it was good" was the proclamation God made after each day of creation. It was good. Adam and Eve stood across from each other, naked and not ashamed. Then Genesis ch3 happened. The devil tempted them by shoving a wedge of distrust between Adam + Eve and God. He convinced Adam and Eve that God wasn't good. That God was some kind of evil Father who denied them knowledge and denied them like a stingy and bitter Father. Eve stopped trusting God and ate. Adam did the same, he was there the whole time and also submitted to the devil. Thus suffering entered the world. "If you eat of that fruit, you will surely die". Thus, sin and death entered humanity as well as the entire creation. Animals started eating animals. Animals started dying. Humans no longer lived eternally under the provision of God. Humans died and returned to the dust. Death, decay, sickness, suffering are all one package that entered mankind, collectively known as the "curse of the fall".
This is the short account of how suffering came about.
Why does it continue to exist? Why doesn't God do something about suffering?
He has.
Jesus came to earth as a man, to redeem mankind for it's trespasses. One might ask: But mankind is good right?
Yes - we are made in the image of God (though it is seared by sin), and we are capable of doing good. You have all helped charities which have come knocking on your door.
What of evil then?
Matey you have surely done plenty of evil. In God's sight, evil is defiling. He is holy beyond our imagination. Not one bit of sin is tolerable in His holy presence. Thus, man and his lawlessness cannot enter the dwelling of God. All sin must be dealt with. God is the ultimate fair judge - who Himself being perfect, is able to judge fairly in all cases. No man who rapes, murders, steals, envies, hates, lusts, lies, is full of greed or is disobedient to parents can get away. This is the ultimate law court.
What about suffering? Well like we've already mentioned: Genesis ch3. is when the "curse of the fall" came to mankind and all of creation. The rest of the Old testament describes the evils of humanity and all of it's broken characters.
So then, what is God's plan to end the suffering? It was revealed in Genesis ch3 right after the fall of Man.
"15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.” "
This was the promise from God that a seed of the woman (the Man Christ Jesus) would one day crush satan.
This has partially been achieved at the cross where Jesus died and rose again. For no man has conquered death and death was Satan's ultimate weapon. Satan's power of temptation ultimately lies in the lie that man will die and that this life IS ALL THERE IS. But Jesus in pouring out His blood for the sins of mankind on the painful cross, and by rising again to life, has conquered death. Anyone who believes in Jesus is thus effectively baptised with Jesus in His death, and thus has his sins forgiven him. For Jesus has taken his sin and this man is justified before God. This ofcourse comes about through grace. (grace = gift of love which is not deserved, but undeserved and free).
God's plan to destroy suffering will be fully revealed at the second coming of Christ - the final day of judgement and the renewing of the heavens and earth (Revelations 21). Satan will be chained forevermore. All evil will be judged and punished. Suffering will cease. All will be renewed, Lions will lie next to lambs. We will never weep, be sick, nor thirst.
Blessed is God who abounds in steadfast love, Amen.
3. Sorry I don't comprehend the "not an abstraction" part. Could you please explain in a PM? Sorry about it, I read 3. a few times and really don't get what you are asking for. @__@ !! I will update this post once you explain it in another way. Sorry!!!
Hope you have gained some biblical perspectives on life, feel free to PM me, anybody that is.
Most instructive. I want to share this to others, and for them to participate, so I hope you don't mind if i post here instead of PM. I asked this:
3. What do they tell us - the devil, fall, cross, etc - about belief or life in general that is not an abstraction?
Let me rephrase. These significant themes of Catholic literature - evil, the fall, the messiah, the cross, and even older once, like brotherhood and forgiveness, which run the length of Cain and Abel, up until Joseph the Dreamer, and some say, was culminated in Jesus himself ("Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing") have all been read textually, contextually, ontologically, hermeneutically, etc., by many, usually to serve a particular purpose, and most of the time, laughably ignorantly so. Now, all the time, the message/reading has always been tautological, something that exists already within the confines of Catholic faith, that is, God is Love, repent for your sins, man is weak but can be saved, and ultimately, and this is the grand scheme of religious belief, there is a grand plan where the original state of being will be restored. Like I said, while they make you feel good and hopeful, they are at best abstractions. In buddhist terms, all this affair with faith, Catholic, Islam, any, is comfined within the wheel of life - just as man is confined within the wheel of life, and just as God/the gods are confined in the wheel of life. Therefore, if I may paraphrase Buddha at the risk of oversimplification, faith, specifically belief in god is not useful/instructive in going about life. One has to tap a inner wellspring of morality/ethics that may or may not be caused by the divine, but certainly operates without it. On this note, what is this organic message that can be derived from all the Catholic themes?
Thanks a lot.
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On November 23 2011 23:14 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 23:07 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:58 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:51 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:42 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference. So then CaptainCrush, what is your solution? Tell those countries Shari'a laws are wrong? Good luck. Good luck as a Dhimmi who has somehow subverted his position in their ideal islamic society and oppressed the Righteous muslims (for muslims see white people as a collective, as an entire Christian kingdom which has subjugated the muslim world for a long time). You most likely are not Christian (95% of TL-ers are not bible believing Christians). But they see you as one. And they think you're just dirt. You will be destroyed in the end. Muslims are taught from young that Islam and Allah are the truth. Everything else is false, lesser and demonic. Allah will destroy all the pigs (Jews and ChristiansWhite people) in the end. : )) Welcome to Islam You could substitute 'muslim' for 'christian' and then 'white people' for 'non-christian' and have an equally objective descreption of bible believing christians. Yes for the destruction/judgement part, no for everything else. God wants all to come to repentance. And the God of this universe is not some detached God who doesn't care about anything (islamic Allah) but one who came to earth to be ridiculed by those who sinned against Him, scourged, and pay for our sins on the cross. One whose name is Love. One who created the world in love and made us in His image. That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8. I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. Let me ask you my friend 3 questions: 1. Have you known for yourself by reading the gospels, Jesus the God-man who came to save us? 2.Would the Jesus of the Gospels (God Himself come to earth) be happy with the Catholic church? (Or any church which is so filled with hate, bigotry, corruption and godlessness) 3. Have you met a genuine follower of Jesus Christ and seen the love of Jesus in him? (I know Sweden is currently <1% Bible-believing/practicing Christian)
I am about to do 2 terrible things. Respond to one of JesusOurSaviour's posts, and respond with something other an a Haiku.
Saviour (If I may call you that for short), any time that people are loving for another reason than the sake of love, it has the potential to be harmful. If I love somebody because they have a Ferrari, then there is always the danger that they may lose that Ferrari. Obviously God isn't promising me a Ferrari (He isn't promising me a Ferrari ... is he?!), but he is offering me other things. Eternal life, being filled with the feeling of the holy spirit, feeling his love, these are all things he can give me.
I would argue that you don't need any of those things. I would say that you could be prepared to love for the sake of love, recieving nothing in return. Love free from religion, compassion free from a master. If I do that, what need does god fill? A selfish want to feel loved. You're as deserving of your own love as anyone else. Love yourself, and others.
Anything that you're attached to, can be taken away.
That being said ... back to the OP's topic!
As much as I try to respect other region's beliefs and traditions, there is something fundamentally wrong with a system that ignores the suffering of it's people, women or otherwise. Most religious texts were probably effective in dealing with the minimization of suffering for their time, but they are generally outdated and should probably not be followed verbatum.
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On November 23 2011 23:43 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference. I agree with you but the story is quite severe to my eyes nonetheless if it were true. However, I have almost no inclination to believe anything coming out of western new media on an orientalised culture (check this meaning of this word; it doesn't mean an Asian culture, it meanes an objectified culture that western or other ignorants view with a default moral highground). Islamic law and culture doesn't lack common sense contrary to western belief (since humans must have "common sense" to survive in society) so I doubt that anything except for the gaol sentence is correct here. We don't know whether it was really rape (because Shari'ah law punishes rapists extremely severely; ironically westerners would say the punishments of criminal Shari'ah law are inhumane) and the family's shame suggests that it was not truly rape. However, adultery is also a very severe crime in Shari'ah law so I understand that the woman would plead rape. I'm not really going to comment on the article further because I don't believe it but I don't have any evidence regarding it anyway. However, making judgment on another culture's values in the name of democracy, peace and justice is the most absurd, pompous and ignorant thing that one can do. By playing to such basic human tendencies to believe that one's own normality is objectively the right or just one, America and its allies have committed a horrifying amount of crimes against humanity, genocide, whatever in the last few decades, all in the name of peace and justice. This isn't exclusive to America of course. For instance, I'm sure that Islamic extremists believe their own cause is just and infinitely more so than any western cause since their one is grounded by a divine law while western actions are driven by old men shouting in a parliamentary room. However, my point is there is no difference between the ignorant population of all cultures that prejudge the actions of another culture on the premise that their own culture is normal. For instance, an Islamic standpoint views western culture as disgusting, inhumane and evil (just like how most people here sees Islamic culture); divorce breaks a divine bond between man and woman; usury leads to greed, which is a huge temptation and motive driving bad acts; adultery is one succumbing to base instincts like base instincts to steal or murder or cannibalism (weeded out on western culture, unlike adultery). Furthermore, Islamic law is a religious law with a divine and unquestionable source which makes it almost impossible to change (practically, it is impossible since the reinterpretation of the Shari'ah has been banned for hundreds of years now). From an objective standpoint, this makes it problematic to adjust to a new era led by western values, but this does not make it any more wrong than another law or culture. It is still correct that western culture today is led by "evil" or selfish motivations, probably more than any other era since religion (probably invented to give basic rights to everyone) is less prominent than ever. I'm actually agnostic but I can still recognise that democracy has led to a society where motivations are far more selfish and greedy than any other type of governance seen before. Democracy is practically driven by a mentality that everyone will stand for themselves and try to further their own rights while reducing their duties as much as possible, and that they will raise their voice to try to ensure that these wishes are granted, resulting in a compromise of give and take with every other member of society, except for those severely outnumbered who are then punished for their minority status in a compromised existence. It is pretty much a feudal society where the majority dominates the minority and one's place in the hierarchy depends on one's socialeconomic status. There is no guarantee of basic human rights beside those that the majority finds to be necessary to protect themselves. In this way, Islamic have been shunned and trashed in western culture to the verge of barbarism and primitivity. Thankfully, people are almost as equally narrow-minded in other cultures too; I say almost, because they actually recognise the sovereignty of other cultures as well instead of viewing them as primitive tribes that are ready to be liberated (hi America).
Well thought out well spoken good sir!
So aside from all that has happened and the drama in between, though you may disagree I'd like you all to take a look at this strong woman. Here all we can do is argue but keep the whole story fresh in your head for life or at least remember it. This woman has decided to move on and though on this side of the planet we can argue remember that this woman has chosen to walk through a minefield and continue on rather than give up. She may give up fighting for herself seeing or finding it to be fruitless against her society, but she has decided to fight for another one that being her child.
Having said that again please look at the strength of this story and not just the weakness.
Ps.When you lose everything you gain something.
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On November 24 2011 00:36 Golem72 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 23:43 tyCe wrote:On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference. I agree with you but the story is quite severe to my eyes nonetheless if it were true. However, I have almost no inclination to believe anything coming out of western new media on an orientalised culture (check this meaning of this word; it doesn't mean an Asian culture, it meanes an objectified culture that western or other ignorants view with a default moral highground). Islamic law and culture doesn't lack common sense contrary to western belief (since humans must have "common sense" to survive in society) so I doubt that anything except for the gaol sentence is correct here. We don't know whether it was really rape (because Shari'ah law punishes rapists extremely severely; ironically westerners would say the punishments of criminal Shari'ah law are inhumane) and the family's shame suggests that it was not truly rape. However, adultery is also a very severe crime in Shari'ah law so I understand that the woman would plead rape. I'm not really going to comment on the article further because I don't believe it but I don't have any evidence regarding it anyway. However, making judgment on another culture's values in the name of democracy, peace and justice is the most absurd, pompous and ignorant thing that one can do. By playing to such basic human tendencies to believe that one's own normality is objectively the right or just one, America and its allies have committed a horrifying amount of crimes against humanity, genocide, whatever in the last few decades, all in the name of peace and justice. This isn't exclusive to America of course. For instance, I'm sure that Islamic extremists believe their own cause is just and infinitely more so than any western cause since their one is grounded by a divine law while western actions are driven by old men shouting in a parliamentary room. However, my point is there is no difference between the ignorant population of all cultures that prejudge the actions of another culture on the premise that their own culture is normal. For instance, an Islamic standpoint views western culture as disgusting, inhumane and evil (just like how most people here sees Islamic culture); divorce breaks a divine bond between man and woman; usury leads to greed, which is a huge temptation and motive driving bad acts; adultery is one succumbing to base instincts like base instincts to steal or murder or cannibalism (weeded out on western culture, unlike adultery). Furthermore, Islamic law is a religious law with a divine and unquestionable source which makes it almost impossible to change (practically, it is impossible since the reinterpretation of the Shari'ah has been banned for hundreds of years now). From an objective standpoint, this makes it problematic to adjust to a new era led by western values, but this does not make it any more wrong than another law or culture. It is still correct that western culture today is led by "evil" or selfish motivations, probably more than any other era since religion (probably invented to give basic rights to everyone) is less prominent than ever. I'm actually agnostic but I can still recognise that democracy has led to a society where motivations are far more selfish and greedy than any other type of governance seen before. Democracy is practically driven by a mentality that everyone will stand for themselves and try to further their own rights while reducing their duties as much as possible, and that they will raise their voice to try to ensure that these wishes are granted, resulting in a compromise of give and take with every other member of society, except for those severely outnumbered who are then punished for their minority status in a compromised existence. It is pretty much a feudal society where the majority dominates the minority and one's place in the hierarchy depends on one's socialeconomic status. There is no guarantee of basic human rights beside those that the majority finds to be necessary to protect themselves. In this way, Islamic have been shunned and trashed in western culture to the verge of barbarism and primitivity. Thankfully, people are almost as equally narrow-minded in other cultures too; I say almost, because they actually recognise the sovereignty of other cultures as well instead of viewing them as primitive tribes that are ready to be liberated (hi America). Well thought out well spoken good sir! So aside from all that has happened and the drama in between, though you may disagree I'd like you all to take a look at this strong woman. Here all we can do is argue but keep the whole story fresh in your head for life or at least remember it. This woman has decided to move on and though on this side of the planet we can argue remember that this woman has chosen to walk through a minefield and continue on rather than give up. She may give up fighting for herself seeing or finding it to be fruitless against her society, but she has decided to fight for another one that being her child. Having said that again please look at the strength of this story and not just the weakness. Ps.When you lose everything you gain something.
Losing everything
So much opportunity
Full cups can't be filled
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This is the great paradox of honor killings - to be raped, physically dominated by another, means that in this culture, you lose your honor - and by extension your family and community are dishonored as well - and in this culture the only way for your family or community to regain that honor you lost is by killing you. It is completely twisted against any sort of morality, including the tenants of Islam.
I'm actually studying honor practices right now - and this sort of conception of honor is similar to things like Atlantic slavery and footbinding in China - in that even people who do it recognize that it is morally wrong, in some cases illegal, and definitely against religious practice. The only way to end practices like this is to change people's conception of honor - making the immoral practice dishonorable. One of the ways to do this is to point out to those who participate in honor killings that it is shaming their nation among the international community. Unfortunately, sometimes all this does is produce a nationalist backlash.
Another way this might change is if the practice is no longer applicable to the society - in this case, it is regulating the sex lives of women, because traditionally in this culture that is all they care about. So if women continue to get educated and have public, prominent careers - being able to speak for themselves and not be defined only by their family - hopefully men will find it less necessary to so viciously regulate their sex lives.
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On November 24 2011 00:50 jubil wrote:
This is the great paradox of honor killings - to be raped, physically dominated by another, means that in this culture, you lose your honor - and by extension your family and community are dishonored as well - and in this culture the only way for your family or community to regain that honor you lost is by killing you. It is completely twisted against any sort of morality, including the tenants of Islam.
I'm actually studying honor practices right now - and this sort of conception of honor is similar to things like Atlantic slavery and footbinding in China - in that even people who do it recognize that it is morally wrong, in some cases illegal, and definitely against religious practice. The only way to end practices like this is to change people's conception of honor - making the immoral practice dishonorable. One of the ways to do this is to point out to those who participate in honor killings that it is shaming their nation among the international community. Unfortunately, sometimes all this does is produce a nationalist backlash.
Another way this might change is if the practice is no longer applicable to the society - in this case, it is regulating the sex lives of women, because traditionally in this culture that is all they care about. So if women continue to get educated and have public, prominent careers - being able to speak for themselves and not be defined only by their family - hopefully men will find it less necessary to so viciously regulate their sex lives.
Brilliant post, you nailed the heart of the problem sir.
People need to stop talking about "religion", specially when it's not their religion and they seem to have very few (if none) religious muslims friends in their surrounding to actually see with their own eyes that muslims are people just like you and I..
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On November 23 2011 20:50 Tabula`Rasa wrote:
The worst part about it is there's nothing more powerful nations in the world can do about these human rights abuses in the middle east. The fact of the matter is that Shari'a law is out of step with basic, objective and incontrovertible notions of justice and rights, and it will never change unless it is forcefully changed.
Well afaik the Sharia law can be presented in very different ways, and if you want it to be you can make it very humanistic.
Like the bible.
It completely depends on who's reading it.
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EPT
