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Really? 10 years in jail for getting raped? Another thread that just shows how fucked up the world of retarded people is.
On November 24 2011 01:45 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 22:31 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 22:19 Nothingtosay wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. All of those things are disgusting and should not be tolerated. Of course we have problems with out culture aswell, I for one think that death penalty is ridiculous, also I don't understand how gay marriage is still illegal etc....... You don't HAVE to tolerate other cultures, you can be reasonable, when you see something like this and be RIGHTFULLY DISGUSTED. You see, if you understand what you are saying, at its deepest discursive level, you would have avoided using the word "tolerate". It is such a philosophically loaded word dripping with false assumptions, and at worse, misguided moral perspective that, if you notice, no public intellectual, no matter how liberal, uses it in public discourse... since the 90s maybe. And who decides if something is worth being "rightfully disgusted" about or not? Who are you to decide whether or not I should be disgusted or find Afghanistan barbaric? I'm not from your culture. Oh look, your argument is now contradictory. Hooray for cultural relativism.
edit: @Zvek Do you really support the idea that all cultures have equally valid value systems and should be treated equally?
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On November 24 2011 03:11 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Well fuck that. Who can we bribe to get her out of country? If I have the means I'll do it.
What's the point?
It's their entire culture, why save 1 woman?
Women are not people in Afghanistan, they are property and baby making machines in the eyes of their men and their religion.
A raped woman is like a broken product, one that the rapist is being forced to buy out of shame.
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On November 23 2011 22:55 mechavoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. Umm no I feel 100% confident that there is moral high ground here to take and a clear judgement to make. This new age cultural relativism is plain moronic. You are just wrong here Zvek 100% wrong there are absolute wrongs and rights. I think we can all agree that killing someone who is not threat to you for fun would be wrong, even if it was normal in a society (lets say nazi germany), from there we can take a short walk to putting someone in prison for being raped. Yes it is wrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Man we got to that point fast. I think this is a sign that this thread needs to close before the religious debate turns into some huge mess...
On November 23 2011 23:07 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 22:58 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:51 Vorenius wrote:On November 23 2011 22:42 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On November 23 2011 22:34 CaptainCrush wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. In all the time I have spent browsing team liquid, this is one of the most uneducated and ridiculously WRONG posts I have seen. Wrong on so many places that I dont even know where to start....You may actually be part of the problem if you think this is just an example of a cultural difference. So then CaptainCrush, what is your solution? Tell those countries Shari'a laws are wrong? Good luck. Good luck as a Dhimmi who has somehow subverted his position in their ideal islamic society and oppressed the Righteous muslims (for muslims see white people as a collective, as an entire Christian kingdom which has subjugated the muslim world for a long time). You most likely are not Christian (95% of TL-ers are not bible believing Christians). But they see you as one. And they think you're just dirt. You will be destroyed in the end. Muslims are taught from young that Islam and Allah are the truth. Everything else is false, lesser and demonic. Allah will destroy all the pigs (Jews and ChristiansWhite people) in the end. : )) Welcome to Islam You could substitute 'muslim' for 'christian' and then 'white people' for 'non-christian' and have an equally objective descreption of bible believing christians. Yes for the destruction/judgement part, no for everything else. God wants all to come to repentance. And the God of this universe is not some detached God who doesn't care about anything (islamic Allah) but one who came to earth to be ridiculed by those who sinned against Him, scourged, and pay for our sins on the cross. One whose name is Love. One who created the world in love and made us in His image. That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8. I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either.
Crap, seems it's too late.
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On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 02:56 Hittomogasin wrote:On November 24 2011 02:37 kafkaesque wrote:
*snip*
I like how we act all high and mighty because women are so equal in our society and 50 years ago women weren't even allowed to vote in most occidental countries and faggots are still not even allowed to marry everywhere.
Just because Western culture is a little more developed, we have no right to get all superiour about it.
*snip* Way to generalize everybody. I dont know where you are from, but this sort of treatment is nothing short of barbaric and would be the a horror story of decade should it hapen in finland. On a cultural development, we are several hundred years ahead to these pigs and their law system. "These pigs"? Way to generalize. And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government?
Treating women like this is commonly accepted in Afghanistan and even institutionalized so yes "these pigs".
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On November 23 2011 21:12 Ryndika wrote:
There is so different moral codes around the world. :O What can I say? I feel REALLY bad for that person... ;( I hope she will get better life soon enough.
The problem is, in that culture, I don't think she can get a better life. With education for women being frowned upon, it would be very difficult to improve her situation.
However, I think I understand what you're saying. There is a phenomenon at work in these sorts of situations called "narcotization" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotization) wherein you basically feel like you are stuck with a certain fate. Essentially, you feel there is nothing that can be done (which has implications for our society and its media use/consumption).
And, to put a slightly positive spin on this... even though this sounds horrible, the woman actually got off better now than she would have earlier in time. Previously, the woman wasn't jailed, she was killed. By her OWN family. Because she caused them "shame." It doesn't make sense, but I guess that's fundamental religion for you.
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On November 24 2011 03:21 Robstickle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:On November 24 2011 02:56 Hittomogasin wrote:On November 24 2011 02:37 kafkaesque wrote:
*snip*
I like how we act all high and mighty because women are so equal in our society and 50 years ago women weren't even allowed to vote in most occidental countries and faggots are still not even allowed to marry everywhere.
Just because Western culture is a little more developed, we have no right to get all superiour about it.
*snip* Way to generalize everybody. I dont know where you are from, but this sort of treatment is nothing short of barbaric and would be the a horror story of decade should it hapen in finland. On a cultural development, we are several hundred years ahead to these pigs and their law system. "These pigs"? Way to generalize. And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government? Treating women like this is commonly accepted in Afghanistan and even institutionalized so yes "these pigs".
If you were born in Afghanistan you'd have the exact same attitude. That wouldn't make you a pig.
Given the "right" cultural and religious background, everyone becomes an asshole.
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On November 24 2011 03:25 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:21 Robstickle wrote:On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:
"These pigs"? Way to generalize.
And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government? Treating women like this is commonly accepted in Afghanistan and even institutionalized so yes "these pigs". If you were born in Afghanistan you'd have the exact same attitude. That wouldn't make you a pig. Given the "right" cultural and religious background, everyone becomes an asshole.
Postmodern cultural relativism is useful for winning internet arguments, but useless in just about everything else.
Congratulations I guess?
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On November 24 2011 03:25 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:21 Robstickle wrote:On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:On November 24 2011 02:56 Hittomogasin wrote:On November 24 2011 02:37 kafkaesque wrote:
*snip*
I like how we act all high and mighty because women are so equal in our society and 50 years ago women weren't even allowed to vote in most occidental countries and faggots are still not even allowed to marry everywhere.
Just because Western culture is a little more developed, we have no right to get all superiour about it.
*snip* Way to generalize everybody. I dont know where you are from, but this sort of treatment is nothing short of barbaric and would be the a horror story of decade should it hapen in finland. On a cultural development, we are several hundred years ahead to these pigs and their law system. "These pigs"? Way to generalize. And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government? Treating women like this is commonly accepted in Afghanistan and even institutionalized so yes "these pigs". If you were born in Afghanistan you'd have the exact same attitude. That wouldn't make you a pig. Given the "right" cultural and religious background, everyone becomes an asshole.
It would make you an ignorant pig. Just because you don't know your culture is wrong doesn't make it right.
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On November 24 2011 03:27 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:25 kafkaesque wrote:On November 24 2011 03:21 Robstickle wrote:On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:
"These pigs"? Way to generalize.
And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government? Treating women like this is commonly accepted in Afghanistan and even institutionalized so yes "these pigs". If you were born in Afghanistan you'd have the exact same attitude. That wouldn't make you a pig. Given the "right" cultural and religious background, everyone becomes an asshole. Postmodern cultural relativism is useful for winning internet arguments, but useless in just about everything else. Congratulations I guess?
About as useful as insulting people for having the bad luck of being born in the wrong society...
Don't piss on all Muslims, piss on the Muslim influence on politics in oriental societies.
On November 24 2011 03:28 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:25 kafkaesque wrote:On November 24 2011 03:21 Robstickle wrote:On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:On November 24 2011 02:56 Hittomogasin wrote:On November 24 2011 02:37 kafkaesque wrote:
*snip*
I like how we act all high and mighty because women are so equal in our society and 50 years ago women weren't even allowed to vote in most occidental countries and faggots are still not even allowed to marry everywhere.
Just because Western culture is a little more developed, we have no right to get all superiour about it.
*snip* Way to generalize everybody. I dont know where you are from, but this sort of treatment is nothing short of barbaric and would be the a horror story of decade should it hapen in finland. On a cultural development, we are several hundred years ahead to these pigs and their law system. "These pigs"? Way to generalize. And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government? Treating women like this is commonly accepted in Afghanistan and even institutionalized so yes "these pigs". If you were born in Afghanistan you'd have the exact same attitude. That wouldn't make you a pig. Given the "right" cultural and religious background, everyone becomes an asshole. It would make you an ignorant pig. Just because you don't know your culture is wrong doesn't make it right.
I'm not saying they are right, I'm saying their society as a whole has to change...
How the fuck is a person to learn to reflect if they are never taught?
If you've been taught that dogmatic, religious nonsense all life long, there's not much chance for critical reflection.
€ Grammar
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At some point, this fire will burn out of control. Reason is coming, and he is not happy.
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On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 02:56 Hittomogasin wrote:On November 24 2011 02:37 kafkaesque wrote:
*snip*
I like how we act all high and mighty because women are so equal in our society and 50 years ago women weren't even allowed to vote in most occidental countries and faggots are still not even allowed to marry everywhere.
Just because Western culture is a little more developed, we have no right to get all superiour about it.
*snip* Way to generalize everybody. I dont know where you are from, but this sort of treatment is nothing short of barbaric and would be the a horror story of decade should it hapen in finland. On a cultural development, we are several hundred years ahead to these pigs and their law system. "These pigs"? Way to generalize. And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government?
"These pigs" as in people responsible for rape and then the injustice of their system. Not "everybody in midle east." Dont try to put words in my mouth or twist it.
As for our political state... still hundreds of years ahead of theirs. Sitsuation is this partly because of news like these, and mostly because of finnish disatisfaction to the europe and as a message to the rest of the leadership that people can still kick their ass if they get annoyed enough. Unlike in some countries that call them selfs democratic, we can actually change the leadership here in finland.
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That might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8.
I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either.
The world would be a far worse place without both. No modern medicine or advanced mathematics or the scientific method, no preservation of the writing of the Greek philosophers and poets (epic and not), no continuation of the Roman common law, basically the entire foundation of the modern Western world is built with Greco-Roman and Chinese ideas preserved and improved upon by Christian and Muslim men of faith.
Historical illiterates like you never cease to amaze.
It's also lazy, sloppy and shallow to single out religion for behavior that also arises independent of religion. The Chinese and Mongols, in their recent and not-so-recent pasts, had little trouble killing, raping, pillaging, and ruling over at least ten times more people than Islam and Christianity have done the same to.
Without a religious basis for it.
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Wow... who in their right mind would ever think of imprisoning someone for getting raped?
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On November 24 2011 03:46 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +hat might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8.
I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. The world would be a far worse place without both. Historical illiterates like you never cease to amaze.
You'll have to elaborate that.
Pre-christian high cultures (ancient Rome and Greece, but also China) had a much further developed system of basically anything, especially regarding law and ethics. Christianity was a huge setback humanity as a whole.
If you compare 100 bc. and the middles ages, you will notices that the latter had more advanced medicine, philosophy, architecture, law and so on. Imagine the Roman Empire developing unhindred for 2000 more years, we'd finally have decent jetpacks now.
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On November 24 2011 03:12 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Really? 10 years in jail for getting raped? Another thread that just shows how fucked up the world of retarded people is. Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 01:45 Dfgj wrote:On November 23 2011 22:31 Zvek wrote:On November 23 2011 22:19 Nothingtosay wrote:On November 23 2011 22:14 Zvek wrote:
What is disgusting is all the posters here on TL taking the "moral high ground".
Really, what do we/you know about culture/justice? I say they can handle on their own. Our disgust over it, no matter what it is, is a product of ignorance, or worse unchecked elitism. This cultural difference occur everywhere, why should Afganistan be singled out? In the USA, you can divorce, which is totally inhumane and completely idiotic for the Arabs. Not to mention all the wars the US has started in the name of "democracy". In some tribes in Africa, the boys are introduced to adulthood by making them have sex with their sisters, and drink the semen of older men.
Let them solve their "situation/problem". Keep your judgment to yourself. All of those things are disgusting and should not be tolerated. Of course we have problems with out culture aswell, I for one think that death penalty is ridiculous, also I don't understand how gay marriage is still illegal etc....... You don't HAVE to tolerate other cultures, you can be reasonable, when you see something like this and be RIGHTFULLY DISGUSTED. You see, if you understand what you are saying, at its deepest discursive level, you would have avoided using the word "tolerate". It is such a philosophically loaded word dripping with false assumptions, and at worse, misguided moral perspective that, if you notice, no public intellectual, no matter how liberal, uses it in public discourse... since the 90s maybe. And who decides if something is worth being "rightfully disgusted" about or not? Who are you to decide whether or not I should be disgusted or find Afghanistan barbaric? I'm not from your culture. Oh look, your argument is now contradictory. Hooray for cultural relativism. edit: @Zvek Do you really support the idea that all cultures have equally valid value systems and should be treated equally?
On what criteria do you judge a culture?
For a Taliban, we all are depraved corrupted greedy nihilistic people.
I stand or fight for my ideas and my ethical position, but I know that they are not intrinsically "better". They are from my point of view, obviously, but I hardly see on what basis I could pretend them to be universal. And I try as much as possible to be ruthlessly critical towards the values of the society I live in.
On November 24 2011 03:51 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:46 DeepElemBlues wrote:hat might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8.
I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. The world would be a far worse place without both. Historical illiterates like you never cease to amaze. You'll have to elaborate that. Pre-christian high cultures (ancient Rome and Greece) had a much further developed system of basically anything, especially regarding law and ethics. Christianity was a huge setback humanity as a whole.
That's completely off-topic, but I think you over-estimate how brutal ancient societies were. Both Christianity and Islam have been an enormous contribution to humanity as a whole, whether it is on a cultural or moral level.
Don't blame Islam for the Taliban, the same way that you shouldn't blame Christianity for the american fundamentalists. The problem is that they are idiots, not that they are christians.
On November 24 2011 03:27 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2011 03:25 kafkaesque wrote:On November 24 2011 03:21 Robstickle wrote:On November 24 2011 03:03 kafkaesque wrote:
"These pigs"? Way to generalize.
And didn't Finland just elect a right-wing party into government? Treating women like this is commonly accepted in Afghanistan and even institutionalized so yes "these pigs". If you were born in Afghanistan you'd have the exact same attitude. That wouldn't make you a pig. Given the "right" cultural and religious background, everyone becomes an asshole. Postmodern cultural relativism is useful for winning internet arguments, but useless in just about everything else. Congratulations I guess?
Since when is a system of thought or a philosophical position supposed to be "useful"? You don't like postmodern thought, that's fine. Personally, I think this typically American idea that we are the good one, with an unlighted culture, a fair system and a solid moral position while everybody else is just "behind" is incredibly naive, silly, and dangerous.
That's not to excuse Taliban, or the bastards who did put this woman in jail. But first step to do anything about something like that is to realize that they do live in a society that is different, has other values and a completely other way of defining what is right or wrong.
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I'm impressed and scared that there are humans in this world that look at that ruling and think justice has been served, not to mention the people who actually handed out that sentence.
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You'll have to elaborate that.
Pre-christian high cultures (ancient Rome and Greece) had a much further developed system of basically anything, especially regarding law and ethics. Christianity was a huge setback humanity as a whole.
You really can't be serious.
It was the fall of Rome and Mongoloid groups pushing Germans from East to Central to Western Europe that caused the deterioration of society, not Christianity. The Volkerwanderung?
From ~400 to ~1000 in Europe the Roman Catholic Church was the only organization keeping reading, writing, law and ethics alive. And the idea that ethics deteriorated from some higher level that existed in Roman times is pure fantasy, at least among the nobility there was no such deterioration, they stayed the same.
If you compare 100 bc. and the middles ages, you will notices that the latter had more advanced medicine, philosophy, architecture, law and so on. Imagine the Roman Empire developing unhindred for 2000 more years, we'd finally have decent jetpacks now.
The idea that Christianity was responsible for the decline and fall of the Roman Empire is maybe 10% of the story, sorry. It's adoption as the Roman state religion helped weaken the bonds of the various Roman subject peoples, but that's about it. And that is because the Roman state persecuted non-Christians as harshly as it had non-Emperor worshipers before. Christianity itself had little to do with it, Romans acting like Romans is what happened. More than half the fault is of successive generations of the Roman upper class raping the treasury and failing to maintain the legions and empire's infrastructure properly. Several famines and plagues that hit in the 4th and 5th century, and most of all the migration of massive Germanic pagan tribes into Roman territory who warred with and eventually defeated the Western Roman Empire.
What are they teaching in schools these days, that people really believe Christianity was responsible for the Low Middle Ages ("Dark" Age)?
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On November 24 2011 03:46 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +hat might be how you interpret Christianity, but it's definitly an image that is pretty much impossible to recognize looking at the actions of the Vatican (the main christian authority) the last thousand years. From anything from Crusades against infidels, the burning of countless women through the inquisition to claiming that condoms don't protect against HIV and it's a sin to use them. I'm sure that makes sense if you believe in superstition and magic, but I'm afraid I don't. I haven't since I was 8.
I'm not gonna argue which is worse, Islam or Christianity, but my point is that the world would be a better place without either. The world would be a far worse place without both. Historical illiterates like you never cease to amaze.
On what basis can you make that claim? We dont have written history without religion, so we dont really know what the world would be like without those two. How ever, we do have strongly secular countries that flat out ignore most of the religious teachings, and still country like finland has good justice system, woman president, prime minister, damn near free education to everybody and our poverty ratings are very low.
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On November 24 2011 03:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +You'll have to elaborate that.
Pre-christian high cultures (ancient Rome and Greece) had a much further developed system of basically anything, especially regarding law and ethics. Christianity was a huge setback humanity as a whole. You really can't be serious. It was the fall of Rome and Mongoloid groups pushing Germans from East to Central to Western Europe that caused the deterioration of society, not Christianity. The Volkerwanderung? From ~400 to ~1000 in Europe the Roman Catholic Church was the only organization keeping reading, writing, law and ethics alive. And the idea that ethics deteriorated from some higher level that existed in Roman times is pure fantasy, at least among the nobility there was no such deterioration, they stayed the same.
I think you should read Nietzsche if you want to understand what one can really blame Christianity for.
I don't have an opinion on whether Christianity was "good" or "bad" since I think it doesn't mean anything at all, but I dislike most of its inheritance. Most of what I find great about our society and culture has been for a big part built up against Christianity (idea of freedom, of equality, secular justice, all what you would call "enlightenment", half of the arts, etc...)
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On November 24 2011 03:59 Count9 wrote:
I'm impressed and scared that there are humans in this world that look at that ruling and think justice has been served, not to mention the people who actually handed out that sentence.
An omnipotent god said that the rules that they have are correct. The people who handed out that sentence had no reason to think what is right or wrong, when they can read from their holy book that what they are doing is in fact the right thing to do. Why change something that has worked for +1000 years, over a newly found idealism about women rights?
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