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On October 28 2011 11:42 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:40 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 11:35 nennx wrote:6) He was targeted specifically because he was gay, in this day and age that is most certainly looked down upon, hence why this article got the attention it did.
People get targeted for being ANYTHING. Being gay isn't any different than being fat. I would bet you anything more fat people get made fun of than gay people. Where's all the people defending fat people? In Australia not long ago a bully was picking on a bigger fat kid and the fat kid finally snapped and lifted him up, then slamming him to the ground. Thousands of people were applauding the fat kid and defending his actions because the bully got what he deserved. Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is. If the kid was black and got beaten up for being black it likely would have caused a stir too. So it's ok to beat up a kid for choosing to be fat?
I never said that, don't put words in my mouth.
My logic behind saying "Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is." is why this is a hate crime but bullying someone for being fat generally isn't.
On October 28 2011 11:44 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:40 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 11:35 nennx wrote:6) He was targeted specifically because he was gay, in this day and age that is most certainly looked down upon, hence why this article got the attention it did.
People get targeted for being ANYTHING. Being gay isn't any different than being fat. I would bet you anything more fat people get made fun of than gay people. Where's all the people defending fat people? Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is. first of all, i think this is an awfully debatable statement. i'm not saying being gay is a choice, rather that some people (especially kids, who are going to eat what their parents give them) don't choose to be fat. second of all, i don't think that just because something is a "choice" has any bearing whatsoever on the morality of attacking them. unless the "choice" is to harm someone, i don't think violence is really ever justified.
And thats what happens when you take one line out of context, see my response above in this post.
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On October 28 2011 11:42 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. If someone who is anti-gay can't help himself or be re-educated then we have to seriously reconsider not just hate crime laws but whether we should prosecute the perpetrators at all. After all he can't help himself, according to this logic. This bigotry is exactly the kind of thing that can be changed because it's an idea, or a belief system, not an immutable characteristic. The kid isn't going to jail over this because he's underage. He *might* get some juvenile detention depending on the jurisdiction. The simplistic "lock 'em up and throw away the key!" types like you are why we have a ridiculously high incarceration rate.
There's no such thing as "accidentally homophobic". Only the willfully ignorant can be willfully intolerant. And I mean intolerant as in, "this kind of shit shouldn't exist and I will take it upon myself to get rid of it." I hate fat people, but I tolerate them.
How does his age factor into his religious beliefs? (athiest homophobe, make me laugh). There's no reason to accept this kind of person in society. Until that changes, the person should be kept out of society. You know where that place is? Prison.
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On October 28 2011 11:46 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:42 ampson wrote:On October 28 2011 11:40 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 11:35 nennx wrote:6) He was targeted specifically because he was gay, in this day and age that is most certainly looked down upon, hence why this article got the attention it did.
People get targeted for being ANYTHING. Being gay isn't any different than being fat. I would bet you anything more fat people get made fun of than gay people. Where's all the people defending fat people? In Australia not long ago a bully was picking on a bigger fat kid and the fat kid finally snapped and lifted him up, then slamming him to the ground. Thousands of people were applauding the fat kid and defending his actions because the bully got what he deserved. Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is. If the kid was black and got beaten up for being black it likely would have caused a stir too. So it's ok to beat up a kid for choosing to be fat? I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. My logic behind saying "Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is." is why this is a hate crime but bullying someone for being fat generally isn't.
Alright, you didn't say to beat up fat people. You just implied that because they choose to be fat nobody needs to defend them. At least, that's what I get when I take the quotes in context.
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On October 28 2011 11:44 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:38 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:36 Derez wrote:On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. Yes, because an assault resulting in a concussion and a chipped tooth deserve a lengthy prison sentence :/. If an adult assaulted another adult with the same consequences, the penalty would likely be a fine plus a probationary period. Seeing how this is a kid, I don't really see how people can be arguing for harsher sentences then that. I feel sorry for the kid, but this isn't exactly a big deal. People get beat up every freaking day, and much worse then this. But hey, let's lock even more people up in prison, because that's worked out so well in the past. This thread is getting utterly ridiculous, and shows why it's so great that we have a legal system that isn't based on gut reaction. I didn't mention any length of time regarding prison. Prison isn't only for retribution, there are many roles prison fulfills. Including keeping people, like the aggressor in this situation, out of society. Wanting to keep someone 'out of society' implies a long prison sentence, because removing someone for a week and a half is hardly keeping someone out of society now is it? Point is that the 1,5 weeks the perpetrator spends in prison are actually likely to make him an even worse person in general, instead of actually changing him in a more positive way. I'm all for punishment, but it needs to be measured and appropriate to the crime. Juvie is no joke, and putting a high-schooler into the system for hitting another high-schooler and chipping his tooth isn't an appropriate and measured response at all. Seriously, all of you advocating prison sentences for something like this need a reality check. You're already locking up more people in jail then at any point in history in the USSR, and now you want to add high-schoolers that hit other high-schoolers to that mess?
Really? Being willfully violent towards gay people for being gay, and you think it can get worse?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penology
At least look at wikipedia before trying to argue about prison psychology.
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On October 28 2011 11:48 ampson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:46 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 11:42 ampson wrote:On October 28 2011 11:40 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 11:35 nennx wrote:6) He was targeted specifically because he was gay, in this day and age that is most certainly looked down upon, hence why this article got the attention it did.
People get targeted for being ANYTHING. Being gay isn't any different than being fat. I would bet you anything more fat people get made fun of than gay people. Where's all the people defending fat people? In Australia not long ago a bully was picking on a bigger fat kid and the fat kid finally snapped and lifted him up, then slamming him to the ground. Thousands of people were applauding the fat kid and defending his actions because the bully got what he deserved. Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is. If the kid was black and got beaten up for being black it likely would have caused a stir too. So it's ok to beat up a kid for choosing to be fat? I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. My logic behind saying "Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is." is why this is a hate crime but bullying someone for being fat generally isn't. Alright, you didn't say to beat up fat people. You just implied that because they choose to be fat nobody needs to defend them. At least, that's what I get when I take the quotes in context.
You're doing it again, putting words in my mouth.
I was stating that because being fat is generally considered a choice, it is not considered a hate crime and hence why bullying a fat kid doesn't end up on the news but brutally assaulting a gay kid does.
Please comprehend what you are reading before replying to it.
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"You fag check out the definition of fag"..... Lol......
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Seems like only violence against gays will be posted. Wheres the reports on straight vs straight fights? It almost seems like violence against gays is like violence against women.
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If the kid is found guilty in court of singling the kid out and beating him only because of his homosexuality I believe they should get him for hate crimes. But if they have had beef for a while and it extends beyond his homosexuality than I believe it needs to be treated like any other typical bullying/fighting incident at a school. Just because a person is gay should not make the punishment any different. I mean equality is equality and regardless of your gender, sex, sexual orientation, religion, ect, you should be treated the same as the "majority".
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is this in America? Just to clarify, i'm not stereotyping nor hate America for any reasons, it is just that i have a friend in America and he said that bullying in school is actually not that rare anymore in American schools.
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On October 28 2011 11:44 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:38 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:36 Derez wrote:On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. Yes, because an assault resulting in a concussion and a chipped tooth deserve a lengthy prison sentence :/. If an adult assaulted another adult with the same consequences, the penalty would likely be a fine plus a probationary period. Seeing how this is a kid, I don't really see how people can be arguing for harsher sentences then that. I feel sorry for the kid, but this isn't exactly a big deal. People get beat up every freaking day, and much worse then this. But hey, let's lock even more people up in prison, because that's worked out so well in the past. This thread is getting utterly ridiculous, and shows why it's so great that we have a legal system that isn't based on gut reaction. I didn't mention any length of time regarding prison. Prison isn't only for retribution, there are many roles prison fulfills. Including keeping people, like the aggressor in this situation, out of society. Wanting to keep someone 'out of society' implies a long prison sentence, because removing someone for a week and a half is hardly keeping someone out of society now is it? Point is that the 1,5 weeks the perpetrator spends in prison are actually likely to make him an even worse person in general, instead of actually changing him in a more positive way. I'm all for punishment, but it needs to be measured and appropriate to the crime. Juvie is no joke, and putting a high-schooler into the system for hitting another high-schooler and chipping his tooth isn't an appropriate and measured response at all. Seriously, all of you advocating prison sentences for something like this need a reality check. You're already locking up more people in jail then at any point in history in the USSR, and now you want to add high-schoolers that hit other high-schoolers to that mess?
i completely agree with you. i think most people in the US grow up thinking the penal system is normal when in fact compared to others it is really really harsh, with long prison sentences for non-violent crimes, etc. then when something like this happens the responses are just "throw him in jail!" "execute him!" and its really sad to read. harsher and harsher punishments don't fix anything.
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On October 28 2011 11:48 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:42 NovaTheFeared wrote:On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. If someone who is anti-gay can't help himself or be re-educated then we have to seriously reconsider not just hate crime laws but whether we should prosecute the perpetrators at all. After all he can't help himself, according to this logic. This bigotry is exactly the kind of thing that can be changed because it's an idea, or a belief system, not an immutable characteristic. The kid isn't going to jail over this because he's underage. He *might* get some juvenile detention depending on the jurisdiction. The simplistic "lock 'em up and throw away the key!" types like you are why we have a ridiculously high incarceration rate. There's no such thing as "accidentally homophobic". Only the willfully ignorant can be willfully intolerant. And I mean intolerant as in, "this kind of shit shouldn't exist and I will take it upon myself to get rid of it." I hate fat people, but I tolerate them. How does his age factor into his religious beliefs? (athiest homophobe, make me laugh). There's no reason to accept this kind of person in society. Until that changes, the person should be kept out of society. You know where that place is? Prison.
I honestly think you're trolling now. Since you now admit he can change and be reeducated, the obvious answer is not prison but counseling/probation. duh.
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On October 28 2011 11:55 brachester wrote:
is this in America? Just to clarify, i'm not stereotyping nor hate America for any reasons, it is just that i have a friend in America and he said that bullying in school is actually not that rare anymore in American schools.
This is in the US. How rare bullying in school is depends on what school you go to in all honesty. Verbal bullying is quite common, physical, violent bullying is a little more uncommon but it's not completely unheard of.
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On October 28 2011 11:50 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:48 ampson wrote:On October 28 2011 11:46 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 11:42 ampson wrote:On October 28 2011 11:40 Tektos wrote:On October 28 2011 11:35 nennx wrote:6) He was targeted specifically because he was gay, in this day and age that is most certainly looked down upon, hence why this article got the attention it did.
People get targeted for being ANYTHING. Being gay isn't any different than being fat. I would bet you anything more fat people get made fun of than gay people. Where's all the people defending fat people? In Australia not long ago a bully was picking on a bigger fat kid and the fat kid finally snapped and lifted him up, then slamming him to the ground. Thousands of people were applauding the fat kid and defending his actions because the bully got what he deserved. Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is. If the kid was black and got beaten up for being black it likely would have caused a stir too. So it's ok to beat up a kid for choosing to be fat? I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. My logic behind saying "Also, being gay isn't a choice, being fat is." is why this is a hate crime but bullying someone for being fat generally isn't. Alright, you didn't say to beat up fat people. You just implied that because they choose to be fat nobody needs to defend them. At least, that's what I get when I take the quotes in context. You're doing it again, putting words in my mouth. I was stating that because being fat is generally considered a choice, it is not considered a hate crime and hence why bullying a fat kid doesn't end up on the news but brutally assaulting a gay kid does. Please comprehend what you are reading before replying to it.
Alright, I get it. I interpreted the first quote wrong. However, I still do not believe that a gay kid getting beaten up is any more important than any other kid getting beaten up, no matter the conditions.
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Really most of tl is voting for prison LOLWUT? Fist fight between minors is hardly grounds for prison. Also we didn't get both sides of the story, media to busy trying to make money to get that. It's very likely that there was more to it than everyone's automatic jump to conclusion of hate crime or else there would be a heavier punishment from the school. Maybe you believe this kid was somehow managing to hide his complete and total hatred towards all homosexuals(because that is easy to do-sarcasm sarcasm). The fact that also none of his peers got involved and tried to help the kid out just makes me believe even more strongly that the homosexual kid's most likely a real asshole and had an ass kicking coming(not for being gay but for being a jerk). People jumping on the hate crime train every time a gay/straight/bi/racialminority/prematurelyborn kid loses a fight is annoying as hell. Did no one else experience high school, from my experience no one ever fought over bullshit like that but rather over kids having disagreements?
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On October 28 2011 11:34 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:32 amazingxkcd wrote:
What amazes me is not the fact that the kid was beaten up, but rather that the liberal media jumped boat really fast onto this kid. Gay kids and straight kids get beaten up every single day, but the media doesn't showcase the straight nerd getting slammed by some gay jocks. They try to feed us shit that the gay kid was beaten up because of his sexuality. Do we have proof that the kid openly stated that he was gay? If so, then the kid deserves some compensation. IF he never did, then is just a bloated way to shove down our throats that gay people are more special than normal people. God Hates Nerds. Not applicable. Nobody wants straight people to die. here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
Pretty sure some people want straight people to die. So what you're telling me is that out of the 9 billion people out there, exactly 0 percent of those will want straight people to die. rethink that for a second.
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On October 28 2011 11:55 brachester wrote:
is this in America? Just to clarify, i'm not stereotyping nor hate America for any reasons, it is just that i have a friend in America and he said that bullying in school is actually not that rare anymore in American schools.
Yes, it's in America. No, bullying isn't rare in America. However, I'm sure bullying can be found in some schools in any country. It's terrible, but kids are immature and school tends to be an environment that runs rampant with social problems.
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On October 28 2011 11:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:48 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:42 NovaTheFeared wrote:On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. If someone who is anti-gay can't help himself or be re-educated then we have to seriously reconsider not just hate crime laws but whether we should prosecute the perpetrators at all. After all he can't help himself, according to this logic. This bigotry is exactly the kind of thing that can be changed because it's an idea, or a belief system, not an immutable characteristic. The kid isn't going to jail over this because he's underage. He *might* get some juvenile detention depending on the jurisdiction. The simplistic "lock 'em up and throw away the key!" types like you are why we have a ridiculously high incarceration rate. There's no such thing as "accidentally homophobic". Only the willfully ignorant can be willfully intolerant. And I mean intolerant as in, "this kind of shit shouldn't exist and I will take it upon myself to get rid of it." I hate fat people, but I tolerate them. How does his age factor into his religious beliefs? (athiest homophobe, make me laugh). There's no reason to accept this kind of person in society. Until that changes, the person should be kept out of society. You know where that place is? Prison. I honestly think you're trolling now. Since you now admit he can change and be reeducated, the obvious answer is not prison but counseling/probation. duh.
He stated that he can change but he chooses not to. You can't reeducate someone who is not willing to be reeducated.
Especially when his parents are teaching him the exact opposite.
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On October 28 2011 11:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:48 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:42 NovaTheFeared wrote:On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. If someone who is anti-gay can't help himself or be re-educated then we have to seriously reconsider not just hate crime laws but whether we should prosecute the perpetrators at all. After all he can't help himself, according to this logic. This bigotry is exactly the kind of thing that can be changed because it's an idea, or a belief system, not an immutable characteristic. The kid isn't going to jail over this because he's underage. He *might* get some juvenile detention depending on the jurisdiction. The simplistic "lock 'em up and throw away the key!" types like you are why we have a ridiculously high incarceration rate. There's no such thing as "accidentally homophobic". Only the willfully ignorant can be willfully intolerant. And I mean intolerant as in, "this kind of shit shouldn't exist and I will take it upon myself to get rid of it." I hate fat people, but I tolerate them. How does his age factor into his religious beliefs? (athiest homophobe, make me laugh). There's no reason to accept this kind of person in society. Until that changes, the person should be kept out of society. You know where that place is? Prison. I honestly think you're trolling now. Since you now admit he can change and be reeducated, the obvious answer is not prison but counseling/probation. duh.
But why would he want to change? And you don't think counseling exists in prisons? And what does probation entail? It's just supervision. It doesn't exclude the aggressor from society and supervision isn't even punishment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_(psychology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehabilitation_(penology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
People think prison is only punishment. Those people are as ignorant as the homophobe. Only 1 of those 4 pillars on the theories of the purposes of prison is "punishment".
Probation isn't retribution, deterrence, or utilitarianism. The only thing that can be attributed to probation is Rehabilitation. It's a slap on the wrist and doesn't help anyone but the aggressor.
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On October 28 2011 12:03 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:On October 28 2011 11:48 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:42 NovaTheFeared wrote:On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. If someone who is anti-gay can't help himself or be re-educated then we have to seriously reconsider not just hate crime laws but whether we should prosecute the perpetrators at all. After all he can't help himself, according to this logic. This bigotry is exactly the kind of thing that can be changed because it's an idea, or a belief system, not an immutable characteristic. The kid isn't going to jail over this because he's underage. He *might* get some juvenile detention depending on the jurisdiction. The simplistic "lock 'em up and throw away the key!" types like you are why we have a ridiculously high incarceration rate. There's no such thing as "accidentally homophobic". Only the willfully ignorant can be willfully intolerant. And I mean intolerant as in, "this kind of shit shouldn't exist and I will take it upon myself to get rid of it." I hate fat people, but I tolerate them. How does his age factor into his religious beliefs? (athiest homophobe, make me laugh). There's no reason to accept this kind of person in society. Until that changes, the person should be kept out of society. You know where that place is? Prison. I honestly think you're trolling now. Since you now admit he can change and be reeducated, the obvious answer is not prison but counseling/probation. duh. But why would he want to change? And you don't think counseling exists in prisons? And what does probation entail? It's just supervision. It doesn't exclude the aggressor from society and supervision isn't even punishment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_(psychology)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehabilitation_(penology)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justicehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UtilitarianismPeople think prison is only punishment. Those people are as ignorant as the homophobe. Only 1 of those 4 pillars on the theories of the purposes of prison is "punishment". Probation isn't retribution, deterrence, or utilitarianism. The only thing that can be attributed to probation is Rehabilitation. It's a slap on the wrist and doesn't help anyone but the aggressor.
i don't know how you can define probation as not retribution; what exactly do you think it is?
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On October 28 2011 12:00 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:57 NovaTheFeared wrote:On October 28 2011 11:48 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:42 NovaTheFeared wrote:On October 28 2011 11:16 Hnnngg wrote:On October 28 2011 11:12 AlphaWhale wrote:
Gaol/Jail is expensive. It doesn't help anyone. It's a siphon on taxes and is used as an easy answer to complex questions. These sorts of crimes and acts need to be dealt with in a rehabilitating and educating way rather than just prison.
This is the problem. People see a bad thing happen and just say "prison". It's meant to keep vicious people out of society for our safety, not be the timeout corner of society.
Yes the kid needs to be punished, but you throw him into a prison and you have a good chance of creating a useless member of society, totally useless. Educate the kid into what? This isn't a non-violent crime, it's not typing "Fag" on the internet. From what I understand, the victim was targeted because of their sexuality. There's nothing to educate or rehabilitate. There's just no room in a society for people like that. This is a good example where prison is the right answer. If someone who is anti-gay can't help himself or be re-educated then we have to seriously reconsider not just hate crime laws but whether we should prosecute the perpetrators at all. After all he can't help himself, according to this logic. This bigotry is exactly the kind of thing that can be changed because it's an idea, or a belief system, not an immutable characteristic. The kid isn't going to jail over this because he's underage. He *might* get some juvenile detention depending on the jurisdiction. The simplistic "lock 'em up and throw away the key!" types like you are why we have a ridiculously high incarceration rate. There's no such thing as "accidentally homophobic". Only the willfully ignorant can be willfully intolerant. And I mean intolerant as in, "this kind of shit shouldn't exist and I will take it upon myself to get rid of it." I hate fat people, but I tolerate them. How does his age factor into his religious beliefs? (athiest homophobe, make me laugh). There's no reason to accept this kind of person in society. Until that changes, the person should be kept out of society. You know where that place is? Prison. I honestly think you're trolling now. Since you now admit he can change and be reeducated, the obvious answer is not prison but counseling/probation. duh. He stated that he can change but he chooses not to. You can't reeducate someone who is not willing to be reeducated. Especially when his parents are teaching him the exact opposite.
There's nothing in the story that indicates the attacker is unwilling, except his facebook quote which makes me believe the bigotry is fairly deeply ingrained. People also tend to make these big changes when faced with serious consequences in law. And, tbqh, fixing the bigotry is secondary to preventing further physical attacks since being a homophobe is not inherently dangerous.
In other words, he needs some monitoring/examination to make sure he is unlikely to repeat his crime. Prison isn't necessary for that.
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EPT
