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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned: 1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post. 2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no. 3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture. 4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
I value sex quite a lot. I still think there's a limited amount of time in the day; too much sex cuts into my shitposting on tl window.
I think them leaving you because you don't want to commit within 18 months is almost guaranteed. I'm pretty sure their version of commitment involves not seeing other people too. This includes fwb.
In any event I think the two of us have vastly different perspectives on interpersonal relations. Good luck in your future romantic endeavours, I seriously think you'll need them.
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On October 13 2018 11:43 Salazarz wrote: @L_Master: I don't see how you can say that bonding hormones and general affection from sex is so important to a relationship, then continue to argue that an open relationship where partners look to fulfill their sexual desires outside of the main relationship are the ideal way to go. Sounds like a pretty big contradiction to me.
This is a really nice point.
My thoughts are that there is some general truth here. Sex does release oxytocin and other bonding hormones, particularly for orgasm. A level of contradiction exists.
However, a big part of this is what you do after sex. If it's transaction, like you fuck, say little, clean up, and leave...I think the bonding effect is quite minimal. Honestly it feels non existent to me when I have had these kinds of hookups. When you have romantic sex with someone you care about, you tend to cuddle afterwords, kiss each other, talk softly to each, and many other more romantic things that are part of the entire bonding experience and really let the hormones and chemicals realize their full effect.
For FWB, I keep the sex a little more "business" like. We talk, we hang out, but we don't do romantic things like holding hands, cuddling, etc. It's a true case of friends who happen to enjoy banging each others brains out. To Slydie's point, this might also be why I'm not getting the impression women who are FWBs with me are looking for more from me. Maybe they just say nothing, but women that want more from you usually will have signs. The way they act, they almost always want to communicate more, try to initiate texts, etc. I don't get much of that, because I treat them like FWBs, and not some in-between sort of boyfriendy but sort of FWBs thing like most guys (I think) do.
On October 13 2018 11:43 Salazarz wrote: As for the reason so many relationships and marriages fail nowadays, it isn't because of monogamy or lack of thereof, it's thanks to the modern culture of instant gratification and the endless choir of 'you deserve better.' To have a successful long-term relationship you have to learn to deal with all kinds of issues, but more often than not people choose to break up (or worse, stuff it all inside and just live there with quiet resentment building slowly before doing so) instead of learning how to solve those issues. So folks go through life from one honeymoon infatuation period to another, without ever learning how to truly love a person. The idea that people grow complacent in long term relationships is a prime example of what I am talking about. Someone who actually understands relationships isn't going to become 'complacent' because they feel 'secure in monogamy' or some shit, rather they cherish the opportunity to continue improving their contribution to the partnership and learn to be better both as an individual and as part of a unit day in, day out. It's just that most people don't get that and never get to that stage.
I'm sorry. I think the stuff that is bolded is too black and white. It's not this or that. It's a myriad of things all playing together. Emphasizing any one thing too much marginalizes the important of the others.
I agree strongly with everything else after that. Problem is, the number of people that recognize that, and especially those that recognize AND act on that is quite low. The endless gratification issue is part of that, but I don't think it's the sole cause.
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On October 13 2018 11:54 bo1b wrote: I value sex quite a lot. I still think there's a limited amount of time in the day; too much sex cuts into my shitposting on tl window.
Limited time in the day sure, but again, I put the threshold at 2-3 hours a week. That's time to have sex at least twice, maybe three times per week. If you don't have 2-3 hours a week to devote to sexual activity, I can't say you value it. If you do devote that time, well then we see eye to eye on the issue. It would be like trying to tell me someone who only goes to the gym 1x a week really values the gym/fitness. No, they don't they clearly value other things far, far more.
On October 13 2018 11:54 bo1b wrote: I think them leaving you because you don't want to commit within 18 months is almost guaranteed. I'm pretty sure their version of commitment involves not seeing other people too. This includes fwb.
I think you're right about the the first part. Good chance of that. That's a long time to say "hey I'm not going to commit to being your BF". That's okay, I think it would be disingenuous to say I'm going to be in a serious relationship with you and then turn around and immediately say "oh but right now I really only have 2-3 hours a week, maybe 5 on a good week, to spend with you.
I'm also just flat out not going to be in truly committed relationship on a time frame less than 12-24 months, because it takes that long to truly where off new relationship feelings and honestly assess if this is something that can work. That's the age old mistake of rushing into a relationship too fast.
I will stand by what I said, they won't leave on account of me not seeing other people. They are well aware of the fact that I see other people, and well aware of the fact that is not going to change. The fact that they are continue to see me already suggests they are not terrified of the idea. They might still be processing how they feel, but it wasn't enough to scare them away, despite being initially skeptical.
In any event I think the two of us have vastly different perspectives on interpersonal relations. Good luck in your future romantic endeavours, I seriously think you'll need them.
You came away with the impression? In all honesty I came away with the opposite. We seem to have very similar views on what we want out a relationship, what constitutes a high quality woman, and what we expect from a relationship. As far as I can tell, we differ only in that you dislike/don't think non-monogamy works in a LTR, and that I think it does.
I don't think I'll need luck. And no, not because I'm being cocky and am sure I'm right. Yes, I do feel I have good evidence, templates, and road maps that this works for people like you and I that desire a long term, committed, deep pair-bonded relationship. That doesn't mean I'm guaranteed right. I could be totally missing the mark.
So far, I'm already proving some things wrong. I got a TON of objections in various places when I first said I was going to try this, basically to the extent of "non quality girl is going to even date you once they know you won't be exclusive". That test has been passed with flying colors*. Now it's that they won't stick with me. I've got anecdotal and rationale evidence to suggest otherwise, but again, it's not backed by massive experience. What I'm doing may end up a total failure. I know at least a few of you absolutely expect that.
So why don't I need luck? Because I'm okay with failure. I'm okay with being wrong. This dating method is not the goal I am wed to. I am web to the idea of deep, pair bonded LTR that enhances my life and fulfills me. If a few years go by and I find that I'm running into these roadblocks you're expecting (I'll probably already be getting hardcore flags sooner than that), I will clearly have to re asses some of my beliefs and opinions and consider different options, likely monogamous dating.
If three years later I learn I was totally wrong, I will come back a happy man having learned something valuable with lots of experience and insight to share, and plenty of dating experience to find a wonderful woman. If I'm right, I'll happily be in a committed, open long term relationship with a wonderful woman. Two pretty decent outcomes if you ask me 
*based on a low sample size, 4/5 could just be a lucky start, and the next 30 women might all immediately next me
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We have almost identical views on what we want and value in a woman, I say almost because I'm sure theres some sort of difference.
The disconnect in my mind is really how successful you'll be transitioning from from multiple relationships into one, while still hanging onto fwb on the side. It goes against every single thing I've experienced both socially and romantically. Maybe I'm wrong and you're right, maybe I'm right and you're wrong. Maybe we're both wrong but you look so good women just can't help themselves idfk.
For what it's worth I do think getting to know the girl a shit load more than most people do before committing is an excellent idea. I also think you're method of slowly filtering to the top prevents what a lot of other people do, which is of course settling for a person who doesn't suit them.
As to the sex thing, I think you're misunderstanding me a fair bit. If I'm in a relationship with a girl and we're not having sex on an almost daily basis I'm not satisfied. What I'm saying though, is that if you take a job to be ~45 hours a week including transport, a couple hours of networking, maintaining friendships and family relations, going to the gym and improving yourself in general, and lets say 4 hours a week with your partner just on sex (never mind the rest of the relation), you're running out of hours for fwb's, and fwb's would be the very first thing to go on that list.
Something I will say which I value in your posts, is that you're willing to go out and do something to get the girl. I've read far too many depressing stories on reddit or this thread of people who are just hopeless at getting any relationship, and for whatever reason they've convinced themselves that having no hobbies and never going out is going to get them the girl. So it is a breath of fresh air to see someone actively going out with a "what have I got to lose" attitude.
For anyone else reading, the answer is almost always nothing.
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On October 13 2018 12:31 bo1b wrote: The disconnect in my mind is really how successful you'll be transitioning from from multiple relationships into one, while still hanging onto fwb on the side. It goes against every single thing I've experienced both socially and romantically. Maybe I'm wrong and you're right, maybe I'm right and you're wrong. Maybe we're both wrong but you look so good women just can't help themselves idfk.
I'm with you 100% here. I can fully appreciate and understand the doubt. I have some myself. Less than when I started, but still plenty of doubt. We shall see. At worst, it will be a learning experiment that I will be better and more knowledgeable for having tried. I think I am doing this in a way that is forthright, respectful, and honest; and not being another asshole manipulatively spinning plates.
I don't actually have a problem with the spinning plates lifestyle if that fufills you (it doesn't at all for me). I do have a problem that many people who spin plates do so in a manipulative or misleading fashion.
For what it's worth I do think getting to know the girl a shit load more than most people do before committing is an excellent idea. I also think you're method of slowly filtering to the top prevents what a lot of other people do, which is of course settling for a person who doesn't suit them.
On October 13 2018 12:31 bo1b wrote: As to the sex thing, I think you're misunderstanding me a fair bit. If I'm in a relationship with a girl and we're not having sex on an almost daily basis I'm not satisfied. What I'm saying though, is that if you take a job to be ~45 hours a week including transport, a couple hours of networking, maintaining friendships and family relations, going to the gym and improving yourself in general, and lets say 4 hours a week with your partner just on sex (never mind the rest of the relation), you're running out of hours for fwb's, and fwb's would be the very first thing to go on that list.
Hey, if you're having that kind of sex in a LTR that's been around for 3-5+ years, all power to you for choosing well. That's not how it goes for most relationships. A vibrant, consistent sex life is definitely a rarity. If I was looking at the situation above through my current lense, I would be thinking you might need on FWB that you would see. Perhaps not even every week. My 2-3 FWB situation is for the more typical "once a week" sexual situation. More or less sex 2-3 times per week is what I see as the healthy minimal for the normal guy from all the studies and evidence I have seen.
On October 13 2018 12:31 bo1b wrote: Something I will say which I value in your posts, is that you're willing to go out and do something to get the girl. I've read far too many depressing stories on reddit or this thread of people who are just hopeless at getting any relationship, and for whatever reason they've convinced themselves that having no hobbies and never going out is going to get them the girl. So it is a breath of fresh air to see someone actively going out with a "what have I got to lose" attitude.
For anyone else reading, the answer is almost always nothing.
Thanks! It's been a long time getting here. I was dangerously close to that guy in early college. Shy. Needy. Lacking confidence. Little in the way of hobbies. 60lbs or so overweight.
I am lucky to be reasonably good looking. It absolutely helps. I'm not so good looking I get women constantly coming up to me telling me I'm beautiful, but I'm a good looking guy with some classical features. Honestly, if I wouldn't have had that I might have never gained that confidence. My first few experiences were basically women aggressively pursuing me in the dorms my freshmen and sophomore year, presumably because of my looks, because I was largely the shy, introverted seeming guy. The stories of some of the signals and things I missed......yikes.
That confidence was a huge boost gifted me, but I have taken it and done my best to run with it. You're right though, there are plenty of people who never even try and it's unfortunate. That's basically like 98% of "incels". You can almost see how they are headed for either single for life, or for some very mediocre relationship where they are likely very clingy and desperate or utterly controlled by whoever they date because they "know" it's all they will get. Seen too many people in those relationships.
It's scary to try at first, but the only way to have a chance in this particular endeavor is to get out there. It takes a significant amount of work to go from lacking woman confidence and a introverted hobby life, to a rich life with a good social circle and confident woman skills, but it's effort well worth spending. I imagine the main reason it doesn't happen is why most people don't lose weight, stop smoking, or any other bad habits....its scary, uncomfortable, and takes consistent work and effort.
I'm telling you guys though, it's truly worth it. When the EffOrt has been put in, you'll be very, very thankful you did.
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I think the majority of people on the planet are vastly under achieving looks wise. Actually on second thought I think the majority of people underachieve heavily in most fields.
You can almost see how they are headed for either single for life, or for some very mediocre relationship where they are likely very clingy and desperate or utterly controlled by whoever they date because they "know" it's all they will get Going back to what I said about power imbalance in couples, experience is definitely another one.
For guys struggling to meet girls, and looking for a social activity to boost confidence, I HIGHLY recommend joining a dancing group. For guys who were taught the lie when growing up that sex is something girls let you do to them, it's the biggest lie on the planet. They want it too.
Idk what you mean by spinning plates tbh.
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On October 13 2018 13:30 bo1b wrote:I think the majority of people on the planet are vastly under achieving looks wise. Actually on second thought I think the majority of people underachieve heavily in most fields. Show nested quote +You can almost see how they are headed for either single for life, or for some very mediocre relationship where they are likely very clingy and desperate or utterly controlled by whoever they date because they "know" it's all they will get Going back to what I said about power imbalance in couples, experience is definitely another one. For guys struggling to meet girls, and looking for a social activity to boost confidence, I HIGHLY recommend joining a dancing group.
Yes. I agree. Putting a little effort into your looks can easily improve you by like 0.5 to 1 point, more in extreme cases, if we go by the old, oft debated "number" system". Major work on your looks can take someone from unattractive to decent. Even if you're closer to ugly than you are to average, developing a great body can take you solidly into the date-able category where you can have more than the once every five years girl falls into lap situation.
Probably right about most fields, if you define underachieve as achieve relative to their potential. But yea, as far as looks go, taking basic care of hair and skin, grooming properly, a decent haircut/style, dressing decently, and working on your fitness all can add up to significant differences. With a moderate amount of efforts, most guys can at least get to average level, which means plenty of opportunities with women. With a significant amount of dedication almost all guys can get to average looking, and most can get to a little above average. You have to be VERY unlucky facially (like 1 in 100 or in 1 in 1000 unlucky) to be incapable of approaching average physical attractiveness, considering the whole package, with work.
On October 13 2018 13:30 bo1b wrote: For guys struggling to meet girls, and looking for a social activity to boost confidence,[b] I HIGHLY recommend joining a dancing group.
I'll try to keep this suggestion in mind.
My worst nightmare and also a deep desire of mine. I can't dance for shit. I'm blatantly, painfully awkward on any sort of dance floor. It's bad. I dislike it. It's a B/C goal of mine to fix when I have the priority goals of my life strongly in motion. If I can find the time though, and I might be able to, going to a dance group could be a good "fun terrifying" thing to try to work in to the weekly or monthly schedule.
MTA: spinning plates is a term used alot for dating/fucking many girls at once. I think it has PUA or manosphere origins but I'm not positive.
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Most people in America are overweight, almost all men can get themselves looking better than average by a good amount. Yeah, it's possible you're born with a deformed face, chronic untreatable acne and are 5'1. The vast majority aren't though.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 13 2018 10:59 L_Master wrote: The wealth and assets thing is interesting. Quite true. I do feel like we are heading much more to an "everyone as in individual" paradigm, which would lessen the need for consolidated wealth, and prevent, to a degree, the concerns about how money should be allocated. Both husband and wife would be free to do as they elect with their own money.
On the cultural timeline, it appears like we're hurdling towards a future where marriage will be "individuals living together", no longer bound by unspoken norms of headship or a drive to preserve the relationship. However this is going to be abruptly, rudely interrupted by reality. Some people will able to maintain the lifestyle and the fiscal flexibility; most won't. I'll explain why at the end.
On October 13 2018 10:59 L_Master wrote: Also, these polyamourous marriages you describe sound like truly complex ones with marriages to multiple people which does seem like a very bad idea to me. I'm picturing something close to a typical monogamous marriage in committed, long term cases, just open. I don't think there should be huge toxicity problems here compared to a traditional relationships, and certainly no need for totem pole maneuvering.
Polygamy is very rare so the example was probably too drastic. I was illustrating how entanglement with multiple women is a potential mine field unless you set explicit, firm expectations and boundaries. Women see each other as natural rivals, so you are liable to endure potential headaches ranging from jealously to outright sabotage. An eager participant can become resentful or even hostile if she feels she is getting a raw deal. This shift can be mercurial enough to catch you offguard.
On October 13 2018 10:59 L_Master wrote: Gonna disagree here on a personal experience level. I'm FAR more selective and more trusting now dating non-monogamously. I have more options, and no rush to get into a relationship in order to have a committed one. Since cheating is now not a concern, I have no trust issues whatsoever. Monogamy is quite fungible as well for how most the average person treats it, but indeed non-monogamous probably can be seen as more fungible. If you look at it how I do though, I'm not sure I see it as that different. I don't think I'm likely to be quicker to discard someone because of dating other people. A casual relationship is casual and relatively fungible, same for FWBs. A serious relationship would still be viewed as such, and I don't think I'd treat a monogamous marriage much different from an open one.
That's because you have the power and freedom to dictate the terms. Low trust and fungibility is endemic among whoever is on the losing end of the bargain. Also remember you are speaking anecdotally with a fair bit of presumption, which is warping your evaluation of monogamy. Don't conflate a lack of trust issues with a lack of investment in a partner; most guys in your position don't have trust issues because they never emotionally rely on their partner for anything. Likewise "most people" don't treat relationships as replaceable as it is hard for them to establish any in the first place.
I think you're overrating your generosity and far underrating a woman's proclivity for mate guarding. Unless you exhibit such value that your wife (not monogamous partner) will consciously overlook the plates, she will not tolerate you sleeping with other women. It presents an eternal threat to her position and directly hurts her ego. Of course that's also possible to overcome (and get her into threesomes and whatnot), but we would be getting into very specific theories here.
On October 13 2018 10:59 L_Master wrote: We will see on 30+, I'm not entirely sure of this, but I haven't had a relationship with a 30+ woman for that duration of time yet. However, one I'm dating I've had the talk with, and she was ok with the concept. At first she wasn't especially thrilled, but she has said recently that she is surprised how much she likes this dating arrangement. That may change though, especially with societal pressure. It will be interesting to see if she eventually pressures me on it, but she is well aware that she is dating someone who is not monogamous. Post-30 women do demand commitment MUCH faster though, she was already pressing very hard on the "what are we" button at three months.
Post-30 women are both insistent on getting serious and painfully aware of their fading beauty. In a weird way they are easier to bed than girls in their 20s; the main avenue is making them feel they are as sexy and desirable as they used to be in their physical prime. Depending on how old you are, she may have found the mere concept flattering. After all, it reinforces she's desirable enough to date someone who is high value via social proof.
On October 13 2018 10:59 L_Master wrote: I'm not sure on this. No comments to make. I haven't seen it, but I don't have tons of experience with it either.
Anecdotally I've seen this a fair bit among the crowd dabbling in polyamory. Intellectually it matches my observations on women in general.
On October 13 2018 10:59 L_Master wrote: It's true that monogamy got us to where we are now, but I'm not sure that it necessarily holds that monogamy got us here -> without monogamy we go back holds true. The world is a very different place now to how it was just 30 years ago, which is radically different from the world 100 years ago. Many of the reasons before why monogamy was so necessary and valuable are becoming less so in today's society.
The deferred explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +Social dynamics are dictated by simple economics. How much leeway individuals have in social mobility, sexual freedom, etc. depends on whether such lifestyles are sustainable and if the economy can absorb the externalities. Classically, this is why liberal sensibilities filtered down from the upper classes to the bourgeoisie, the bourgeoisie to the working class, and so forth. Ditto for why looser code of conducts are the norm in modernized societies. Specifically for the U.S. (our home), we are in the midst of a massive asset bubble facilitated by credit, artificially low interest rates, and QE thanks to the Fed. This has masked that most of the key indicators of a healthy economy (productivity, median household income, wage increases, etc.) have stagnated or gone down. Most of this debt has gone in corporate borrowing, used for stock buybacks and the ilk. Hence why the Dow and NASDAQ keep hitting record highs despite underwhelming and contradictory evidence e.g. two years ago, Microsoft had +65% rise in market cap despite droppig 27% in LTM net income since 2013. Meanwhile fixed costs like college tuition and house prices continue to rise unabated. The labor force participation rate has been in a slow decline for decades - the male LFPR in particular has cratered since the 60's, and continues to spiral downwards - and combined with the endangered middle class, the lack of payroll taxes will push SS and Medicare to the point of insolvency in the next two decades. Finally, we've been at sub-replacement levels for total fertility rate since the early 90's IIRC. It didn't affect Generation X to any noticeable extent, but next decade will be the point when those missing children should be joining the labor force. You know, the one that's still in freefall. All of this portents another economic crisis. And that imminent crash is everything. Marriage is first and foremost an economic arrangement meant to provide both parties with a stable environment that can support their basis needs. We have abandoned that schema in the last 40 years due to the cheery optimism that everyone will be able to be financially independent. Sybaritic attitudes are a novelty that can only be indulged when we have the prerequisite money. This counts doubly for women, as their entrance into the labor market allowed them to delay marriage and child-bearing in favor of promiscuity and fun. Well, the gravy train is almost out of coal. 40 years of shitty policies and blind-leading-the-blind syndrome is catching up to us. This is why the American upper-class, despite espousing sexual freedom with the most fervor, divorces at a fraction of the rest of the populace. They instinctively understand that if you can't gather and preserve financial assets across generations, you will always be at the mercy of the tides. All our current libertine morals depend upon a robust middle class with upwards mobility, a condition that is eroding away day by day. In terms of history, sexual decadence has been one of the primary indicators of incoming decline. Similar licenses were taken in ancient Rome near the end of the Julio-Claudian dynasty; the bureaucracy of Heian Japan sunk into self-indulgence prior to evisceration by the eastern warlords; the decade prior to the Great Depression was infamous for revelry. Ditto for China, various Muslim kingdoms, etc.
For the record, I'm generally supportive of non-monogamous dating for men. I think it's one of the most empowering and emboldening activities you can participate in, and if you play your cards right one of the most illuminating too. However, I simultaneously believe it's cancerous for a society to embrace that paradigm as the default. It's like programming: a few programmers can work wonders, but the world turns to shit if everyone tries to be one.
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I don't think cancerous is a strong enough word to describe my thoughts on polygamy. I think there's extremely good reasons why every single society worth living in has outlawed it, and why you only hear about it associated cults in the west.
It is also, as a ridiculous comparison, another example of the rich getting richer. Only in this case the rich are people who are already good at establishing and maintaining relationships with women. Seize the means of reproduction!
It is empowering to a very small group of men enjoying women vying for affection, this can only last a small amount of time before it dies a death of natural causes. Humans are not lions, there are in built reasons as to why the male/female birthrate is approximately 50/50. I'd be very interested to read a report on L_Master's continued success as he graduates from college and enters a world that's not a bubble.
I'm actively ignoring what to me looks like a narcissistic overview of relationships for what I hope is naivete.
Interesting post btw Cosmicspiral. Out of interest, is the Female workplace rate tracking upwards at roughly the same rate the male index is tracking down?
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All this polygamy talk, shiiiit. I don't even understand why you'd want that. One woman is enough for me, thanks. More than enough sometimes. Maybe it's because I'm reserved and introverted and 30 and grew up an only-child.
I guess maybe it makes sense if your sex drive is significantly higher than your partner, or if you're a race horse that's studding in retirement... but who has time to work on multiple relationships? Yesterday I spent almost 2 hours listening to my current squeeze complain about her job and the other females at her job. The idea of doing that twice or three times in a week makes me want to castrate myself.
This poly- whatever idea reminds me of my friends who live in Brooklyn and have too many tattoos and claim to be bi regardless of whether or not they actually are. Yes you can have multiple friends you have sex with if you're mature enough and/or dispassionate enough not to catch feelings in the process. Whatever floats your boat.
Anyway what happened to this thread. I want to read stories about awkward first dates and such. Anybody want to share? Please?
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Sure, I went out to a cooking class a few weeks ago and spent the day flirting with the girl on my kitchen bench. Tracked her down a few days ago and now I'm going out for dinner and a dance on Wednesday night. She's a fun girl to chat to, currently doing law so I'm hoping things line up well.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 13 2018 14:18 bo1b wrote: I don't think cancerous is a strong enough word to describe my thoughts on polygamy. I think there's extremely good reasons why every single society worth living in has outlawed it, and why you only hear about it associated cults in the west.
It's antithetical to a healthy society in general. At best widespread polyamory can be practiced for a select group, usually among the rich or UMC, or prostitution can be legalized with formal criteria and rituals e.g. oiran in feudal Japan. The problem is when it trickles down to become a mainstay in the general populace. They don't have the means to absorb the fallout.
I'm fine with guys who embrace that lifestyle as an individual choice, fully cognizant of the possible risks and consequences. It can do wonders for your confidence, assertiveness, initiative and general outlook in life. It's certainly better than wallowing in a world where the social rules are too nebulous and ever-shifting to fathom. A lot of poor bastards lose out hard in the dating game.
On October 13 2018 14:18 bo1b wrote: Interesting post btw Cosmicspiral. Out of interest, is the Female workplace rate tracking upwards at roughly the same rate the male index is tracking down?
The female LFPR roughly matches the male decline, and has largely remained steady after 2014. However, this shouldn't be happening as long as job creation kept up.
The total LFPR has dropped ~3.8% since the mortgage crisis.
On October 13 2018 14:56 TheFish7 wrote: Anyway what happened to this thread. I want to read stories about awkward first dates and such. Anybody want to share? Please?
Roughly seven years ago I tried chatting up this Russian-Chinese woman in her 30s. She happened to be a ballet dancer in the past, judging from the photo she kept in her purse. I also suspect she was a KGB agent but I couldn't properly ID the pistol next to the photo. It was 2 am at night after all.
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On October 13 2018 14:18 bo1b wrote: I'm actively ignoring what to me looks like a narcissistic overview of relationships for what I hope is naivete.
I'd be very interested to read a report on L_Master's continued success as he graduates from college and enters a world that's not a bubble.
Can you elaborate?
For the record, I'm 28. Second bachelor at school. Didn't have good focused and fucked up grades and other things and kinda shot myself out of med school which was my initial goal. Took a few years off to work and race bikes, but couldn't find anything in biology as my focus was much more on shadowing than labs and I found almost every job demanded lab experience for the position, but I needed the positing for the experience. Eventually decided to go back for ECE.
On October 13 2018 14:56 TheFish7 wrote: All this polygamy talk, shiiiit. I don't even understand why you'd want that. One woman is enough for me, thanks. More than enough sometimes. Maybe it's because I'm reserved and introverted and 30 and grew up an only-child.
I guess maybe it makes sense if your sex drive is significantly higher than your partner, or if you're a race horse that's studding in retirement... but who has time to work on multiple relationships? Yesterday I spent almost 2 hours listening to my current squeeze complain about her job and the other females at her job. The idea of doing that twice or three times in a week makes me want to castrate myself.
Anyway what happened to this thread. I want to read stories about awkward first dates and such. Anybody want to share? Please?
This isn't really polygamy talk. Polygamy specifically refers to multiple husbands/wives. I don't think anybody is talking about that. The discussion is about non-monogamous viability, probably most specifically about whether the setup on one pair bonded OLTR with 1-3 FWBs on the side is workable, and also about some of the concerns with monogamy/relationships in general.
As to bolded, you misunderstand. FWBs don't complain about that kind of stuff. They don't care enough to and they only have a limited time with you and want to make the most of that. Nobody would want that more than 1x. Even 1x is borderline unacceptable, to the point I'd have to ask you about it. Why is she complaining for two hours? That's not good. A little 10 minute vent to (not at) you would be one thing. A two hour complaint is insane. I don't have two hours for that, unless it's a productive two hour conversation between us about how we can better her situation, either improving the job or getting to a more desirable job. Her ranting for 2 hours is insane for her, and even more insane for you to listen to.
If two hours of ranting are needed, there are some deeper problems that need to be addressed imo.
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I think there are far more healthy ways of improving confidence and assertiveness, ways that don't typically involve (perhaps unintentionally) an awful lot of collateral heartbreak.
Can you elaborate?
For the record, I'm 28. Second bachelor at school. Didn't have good focused and fucked up grades and other things and kinda shot myself out of med school which was my initial goal. Took a few years off to work and race bikes, but couldn't find anything in biology as my focus was much more on shadowing than labs and I found almost every job demanded lab experience for the position, but I needed the positing for the experience. Eventually decided to go back for ECE.
I think it takes willful ignorance to overlook specific gender roles and how women in particular go about relationships. That's all I'm going to say about it, if you really don't know then I don't want to attack you over a forum for it.
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On October 13 2018 14:01 CosmicSpiral wrote: Polygamy is very rare so the example was probably too drastic. I was illustrating how entanglement with multiple women is a potential mine field unless you set explicit, firm expectations and boundaries. Women see each other as natural rivals, so you are liable to endure potential headaches ranging from jealously to outright sabotage. An eager participant can become resentful or even hostile if she feels she is getting a raw deal. This shift can be mercurial enough to catch you offguard.
Can't disagree here. Drama is one thing I'm not a fan of, so that's something to watch for. I do think I set firm, explicit boundaries, but of course I'm still relatively new at this. Last two sentences are good things to keep in mind.
On October 13 2018 14:01 CosmicSpiral wrote: That's because you have the power and freedom to dictate the terms. Low trust and fungibility is endemic among whoever is on the losing end of the bargain. Also remember you are speaking anecdotally with a fair bit of presumption, which is warping your evaluation of monogamy. Don't conflate a lack of trust issues with a lack of investment in a partner; most guys in your position don't have trust issues because they never emotionally rely on their partner for anything. Likewise "most people" don't treat relationships as replaceable as it is hard for them to establish any in the first place.
I think you're overrating your generosity and far underrating a woman's proclivity for mate guarding. Unless you exhibit such value that your wife (not monogamous partner) will consciously overlook the plates, she will not tolerate you sleeping with other women. It presents an eternal threat to her position and directly hurts her ego. Of course that's also possible to overcome (and get her into threesomes and whatnot), but we would be getting into very specific theories here.
I see what you're saying about trust. If you're not invested, yea trust is going to be more of an issue. My investment in two of these relationships has definitely been turning up gradually. Not an issue yet...but it's still certainly less than that of a typical committed boyfriend/girlfriend pairing.
Good point about most people not treating relationships as replaceable. Most of the guys, and women, in my social circle are decent looking, confident, successful guys with the ability to move from partner to partner so I tend to forget that most guys just fall into "lucky" relationships and stay there till they marry or break up before entering a long single period.
Bolded: Good chance you're right on proclivity for mate guarding. I could be badly underestimating that. Pretty confident I'm not overrating my generosity if I;m understanding your context correctly. I've always been a very uniquely trusting person, but also one who is very tolerant and accepting. I generally expect/prepare for the worst, and rarely get angry. Situations that would cause most guys to be furious and jumping into it with fists I just shrug off, usually not getting mad. If action is needed, I take it, but anger is generally not productive, and a calmer diplomatic approach yields better approach than anger and frustration most times.
Value wise, I dunno. Good looking and fit helps. I'm quite confident, and generally good socially. For 28 I lag behind where I should be financially/career wise, but I now have a very clear directive of where I am heading and am building a strong work ethic, discipline, and organization to get there. I often feel a level of judgement there, but my clear path and mission seems to lessen that blow. Perhaps the thing that seems to help me the most is my roll with the punches, never get upset, but also not able to be pushed around attitude. I've had several women now comment on how they haven't met a guy who didn't try to control them, get angry or tell them what to do, but was also confident/non needy/masculine.
Guys most be terrible there though. I recently had one woman tell me she got cold feet because she thought I might be a player based on my pics. She basically no responded to me after I had driven about 35' to meet her. After I sent a pair of texts asking if she was there and getting nothing, I waited about 10' and sent "I'm headed back, it seems out date isn't happening tonight. A heads up warning before I left would have been appreciated, but I absolutely understand things happen last minute. If you'd still like to meet I could do X at Time". I wasn't going to meet her, but she apologized profusely and said that she has never had a guy be that chill about flaking.
On October 13 2018 14:01 CosmicSpiral wrote: Post-30 women are both insistent on getting serious and painfully aware of their fading beauty. In a weird way they are easier to bed than girls in their 20s; the main avenue is making them feel they are as sexy and desirable as they used to be in their physical prime. Depending on how old you are, she may have found the mere concept flattering. After all, it reinforces she's desirable enough to date someone who is high value via social proof.
Some post 30 women don't seem aware of their fading beauty at all. I've gone on some dates with 35+ women that clearly think they are as, or more attractive, then women 15 years younger. But yes, what you write here matches my experience of the typical 30+ woman.
I'm a young looking 28. Nobody in my classes ever guesses I'm anything but a traditional junior.
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On October 13 2018 15:13 bo1b wrote:
I think it takes willful ignorance to overlook specific gender roles and how women in particular go about relationships. That's all I'm going to say about it, if you really don't know then I don't want to attack you over a forum for it.
Up to you. If it has a constructive purpose (i.e. bringing in new viewpoints of perspectives I haven't considered) I would not consider it an attack. It's either a reasoned discussion and/or constructive criticism. If you don't want to go that direction, I'm perfectly okay with that. If you do, I enjoy reading different perspectives, learning, and considering new viewpoints.
A variety of people, yourself included, have made some excellent points over the course of the past day or two that deserve quite a bit of thought and processing.
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hah dammit I got a tentative flake text like 10hrs later for that date Maybe you're right L_Master it's possible I just don't remember the no shows and second day flakes, it has been over 3 years after all heh
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On October 13 2018 14:56 TheFish7 wrote: All this polygamy talk, shiiiit. I don't even understand why you'd want that. One woman is enough for me, thanks. More than enough sometimes. Maybe it's because I'm reserved and introverted and 30 and grew up an only-child.
I guess maybe it makes sense if your sex drive is significantly higher than your partner, or if you're a race horse that's studding in retirement... but who has time to work on multiple relationships? Yesterday I spent almost 2 hours listening to my current squeeze complain about her job and the other females at her job. The idea of doing that twice or three times in a week makes me want to castrate myself.
This poly- whatever idea reminds me of my friends who live in Brooklyn and have too many tattoos and claim to be bi regardless of whether or not they actually are. Yes you can have multiple friends you have sex with if you're mature enough and/or dispassionate enough not to catch feelings in the process. Whatever floats your boat.
Anyway what happened to this thread. I want to read stories about awkward first dates and such. Anybody want to share? Please? yeah the dating thread has had too many essay length posts lately. needs to go back to its roots which was nerds telling awkward stories
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Yeah what the fuck I'm single after over 3 years Being all emotionally shaken and such
And need to discuss my practical getting back into the fray of things and tangible stories and learning from specific mistakes I made with fellow nerds, you know, to heal
And these people make it real hard with these metaphysical essays unraveling the fabric of the universe and being all philosophical
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