EPTThe paradox of schools and universities in America - Page 5
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
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YeahScience
United States6 Posts
No, where American universities really shine is at the post graduate level. It seems like a lot of the creative ideas come from American research groups (I say this as a person who has read scientific papers and browses a lot of science news), whether it's in physics or medicine. I think the difficulty, or lack thereof, of American schools is perfect in that it provides adequate learning to those who don't care about learning while providing plenty of free time for extracurricular studying to those students who want to go on to get a Ph.D. I worked in a chemistry lab for a year with graduate students from China and Taiwan and the things they say of their junior high and high schools sound like horror stories. They're forced to work all day (literally 12+ hours) and sometimes even on Saturdays. Sure, this creates students who know a lot of the established theories and students who can do crazy multiplication in their head, but that isn't what graduate school is about. In graduate school you have to solve an unsolved problem, and I feel like the American school system fosters students who excel in this, much more so than other schools where more emphasis is placed on rote memorization and getting the right answer all the time. Not the most well thought out writing but that's my opinion on it. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:49 Frigo wrote: I've heard the overly strong teacher's union plays a very large role in the shitty state of public education in the United States. I feel like that's a broad generalization, and oversimplifying a huge issue. you'd think that if they were able to orchestrate the downfall of the us education system, they'd be able to negotiate better wages for teachers, and we wouldn't constantly hear about how poorly we pay them. Edit: i'm sorry, i feel like that came off as slightly needlessly aggressive. I feel like it's not necessarily the teachers unions that are destroying the system, but more that it's difficult for any teachers to enact any real change individually. They're always at the mercy of their school, which is at the mercy of the county system, which is at the mercy of the state budget, and in north carolina, we underfund like it's going out of style. We even implemented a new state lottery a few years ago to help put all the money from that into education. The result? I believe (not 100%) that the education system has received less funding overall from the rest of the budget (that it normally would have received), because everyone in the state legislature just said, "oh, the NC Education lottery is already going to that, let's take some of that money and move it elsewhere" | ||
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
Personally I went to private school until high school. I thought my freshman year was a joke because it basically was my 8th grade year all over again with less homework and easier tests. Def a huge drop off between private and public in the US. Which reflects that capitalistic notion that if you have money in the US its pretty much the greatest country on earth but if you have little to none then this country SUCKS really really bad. Most people fall in the middle so this country is Meh ok  | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:45 paralleluniverse wrote: I'm not from America, but I've heard a lot about how much the American public school system sucks, both from Americans and others. However, this has always struck me as paradoxical, because America has the best universities in the world -- by far. Nearly all of the top ranked universities are American. No other country is even *remotely* close. How is it possible for America to, allegedly, have such horribly bad and ineffective schools, while having the best universities in the world? To add to this, countries like Singapore, China, Korea, and most Asian countries, are generally consider to have the best schools in the world, with the highest level of school achievements measured by standardized language, math, and science scores, yet none of these countries have a university worth a damn, I think none these even have a university ranked in the top 20. Anyone want to shred some light on this seeming paradox? You're argument is that since we have the best schools in the world, we can't also have the worst schools in the world? That's like saying if the tallest person lives in our country, the shortest person can't also, or if we have some of the most physically fit people in the world, we can't also have some of the highest rates of obesity. I might be missing something but it just seems like your argument is just a fallacy. Sure it's interesting, but in no way is it a paradox. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
on top of the fact that a lot of colleges are private, all schools have acceptance standards. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:50 reneg wrote: I feel like that's a broad generalization, and oversimplifying a huge issue. you'd think that if they were able to orchestrate the downfall of the us education system, they'd be able to negotiate better wages for teachers, and we wouldn't constantly hear about how poorly we pay them. Teacher unions don't have 100% leeway in what and how something can be taught, often its decided at federal, then state, then by district's administration. On September 24 2011 02:37 ShatterZer0 wrote: In Korea, school clubs are pure formality. American schooling is based upon creating individuals who can work in a team... because a team of relatively intelligent individuals almost always trumps a single cultivated individual when thrown straight into society. The point is... American school are trying to create productive people... most other nation's schools are trying to create kids who can pass college entrance exams. Also... where was it convoluted? I'm a naturally confused/confusing individual XD Outta curiosity are clubs in korea created by teachers or students, In California where i grew up students created and ran the clubs, a teacher was necessary for to hold the room essentially just a legal matter most of the time they just worked on correcting papers while we ran clubs, except sports. Which is why we ran a gambit of clubs, such a leo/lions club which was to help others find community service opportunities(which is a requirement of graduation) to a club me and my friends created video game club which actually made a shit ton of money due to running tournaments. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:50 Slaughter wrote: Its interesting as I have an aunt who teaches private school at the 2nd grade level. She always talks about the educational differences and she talks about her students from other countries. She says that they are way ahead generally in like basics stuff in that they are almost like robots with stuff like spelling/math/reading. But that their critical thinking/creativity/social interaction type of things is stunted. As well she said that generally the parents of these kids prefer them to go to US school because they actually enjoy it (Note this is for private school in the US). Personally I went to private school until high school. I thought my freshman year was a joke because it basically was my 8th grade year all over again with less homework and easier tests. Def a huge drop off between private and public in the US. Which reflects that capitalistic notion that if you have money in the US its pretty much the greatest country on earth but if you have little to none then this country SUCKS really really bad. Most people fall in the middle so this country is Meh ok That is pretty much true. For all its faults, the US school system is still pretty good in churning out innovative thinkers. It's why Stanford, for example, can produce the Yahoos and Googles of the world. The California universities attract many of Asia's best and brightest as well, more so than most other US universities. Still, I'm surprised that many Asians do manage to end up in some of the more obscure schools in the Midwest or anywhere far from the Pacific coast. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:54 reneg wrote: that's not even close to true. A huge number of universities in america are public. Every single "____ State university" and "University of ______" is a public university. University of Pennsylvania. Nothing wrong with public universities though. Berkeley and Michigan are comparable in prestige to most private universities. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:53 semantics wrote: Teacher unions don't have 100% leeway in what and how something can be taught, often its decided at federal, then state, then by district's administration. I'm a naturally confused/confusing individual XD Outta curiosity are clubs in korea created by teachers or by students, In California where i grew up students created and ran the clubs, a teacher was necessary for the room essentially just a legal matter most of the time they just worked on correcting papers while we ran clubs. Which is why we ran a gambit of clubs, such a leo/lions club which was to help others find community service opportunities(which is a requirement of graduation) to a club me and my friends created video game club which actually made a shit ton of money due to running tournaments. Haha yea, i edited and added a little more clarity, since i feel like my first line came off just a little abrasive and not very helpful. On your 2nd note, I've also heard (a friend of mine teaches english over in korea), that their teachers are switched around to different schools in the area every 4 years, to keep one school from becoming the "goal" and the "good school" while turning the rest into shit. Basically, you're required to move every 4 years to keep the schools fresh, and to keep them all on a level field. Does anyone know if this is true? Or have any experience with it? | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
It's very simple really. | ||
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TheGiftedApe
United States1243 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:37 svi wrote: TBH, America only had leading universities after WWII. Some of the most talented Europeans (Einstein, Godel, Neumann, etc) came here and just completely raised the bar of American universities and their influence remains today. European universities like Gottingen were way better than any American college in the early 20th century until the max exodus of their talent to American happened. And we still see this happen today (although it's due to financial reasons now, and not due to war). well this goes for everything american, America was barely a player on the world scene until after WW2, pre-ww1 america held a isolationist theory of global affairs, obviously european and asian countries had a 400+ year head start, as nations. America as its currently known, with 50 states, only happened in the 1900's, most western states came in the 1910's-1920's, and Alaska and Hawaii not until 1959, imo the country is really only ~125 years old. Before ww2, america was just that place where movies came from. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:57 shell wrote: American universities have more money and prestige hence they get the best teachers and students that eventually gets them more money, prestige and even better teachers and students! It's very simple really. I wouldn't say it's that simple, but that definitely is a significant contributing factor. | ||
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svi
405 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:49 YeahScience wrote: I've been in the American public school system my entire life, went to a community college for 2 years before transferring to a state school. I graduated with a science degree and I'm looking to apply to a graduate school this fall. I'd have to say that in general, American colleges are less impressive than foreign ones at the undergraduate level. The students from foreign colleges seem more prepared for tests and have the best knowledge of the subject they're studying. No, where American universities really shine is at the post graduate level. It seems like a lot of the creative ideas come from American research groups (I say this as a person who has read scientific papers and browses a lot of science news), whether it's in physics or medicine. I think the difficulty, or lack thereof, of American schools is perfect in that it provides adequate learning to those who don't care about learning while providing plenty of free time for extracurricular studying to those students who want to go on to get a Ph.D. I worked in a chemistry lab for a year with graduate students from China and Taiwan and the things they say of their junior high and high schools sound like horror stories. They're forced to work all day (literally 12+ hours) and sometimes even on Saturdays. Sure, this creates students who know a lot of the established theories and students who can do crazy multiplication in their head, but that isn't what graduate school is about. In graduate school you have to solve an unsolved problem, and I feel like the American school system fosters students who excel in this, much more so than other schools where more emphasis is placed on rote memorization and getting the right answer all the time. Not the most well thought out writing but that's my opinion on it. China and Taiwan fails at graduate schools because they've only just recently entered the math/science arena, not because they emphasize 'memorization' or any of that bullshit. China never really gave a shit about physics or mathematics under Mao, so they've done nothing more than play catch up in recent years. They've only started to absorb western ideas like quantum mechanics a few decades ago, while Europe way ahead. On the other hand, America has the luxury of plucking away nearly every single one of Europe's greatest minds due to WWII and these people were able to teach and train American students which guaranteed them a strong generation. When you have geniuses like Godel/Neumann/Einstein/Dijstrka, etc how the hell are you not going to produce great grad students? How is China supposed to compete with people who learned firsthand from the masters while their previous generation were getting fucked by Mao? | ||
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Dr_Strange
United States80 Posts
The largest reason the us tests lower in schools is because everyone in the country goes to schools. In many of the other countries, the poor or not qualified do not have access to the tests so they can not weigh down the scores. It is similar with Germany. Another problem that shows up is that the US has a large amount of immigrants that do not even know English, but still attend the schools and wont pass a test in English. | ||
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:03 Dr_Strange wrote: Education starts with the parents. Schools can only do so much. The biggest factors that affect a student is their households income and parents. The largest reason the us tests lower in schools is because everyone in the country goes to schools. In many of the other countries, the poor or not qualified do not have access to the tests so they can not weigh down the scores. It is similar with Germany. Another problem that shows up is that the US has a large amount of immigrants that do not even know English, but still attend the schools and wont pass a test in English. I've seen a number of people say this, i'm trying to figure out what countries everyone's talking about when they say things like, "They don't count the poor." I've studied german for a number of years, and am trying to figure out how they'd do that. I mean, i know they have a different tiered system (Realschule vs Gymnasium vs. Fachschule) but don't know if they'd actively neglect some scores? | ||
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KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
Our state university system, however, is pretty damn good. This is not even including Ivy League/private universities, which are among the best in the world. You can go to a state school in your state (affordable), transfer to a university that focuses on your specialty, and go from there. tl;dr grade school public school system is kind of screwed up, but at the university level it is pretty damn good. Not the best explanation, but that's my unprofessional take on it | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:06 Saturnize wrote: Because universities for the most part are not funded by the state. in america, at least, this is false. a huge number of our universities receive funding from the state Most ______ State University and University of ________ (one notable exception being UPENN) are public and receive huge chunks of their funding from the state. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:06 reneg wrote: I've seen a number of people say this, i'm trying to figure out what countries everyone's talking about when they say things like, "They don't count the poor." I've studied german for a number of years, and am trying to figure out how they'd do that. I mean, i know they have a different tiered system (Realschule vs Gymnasium vs. Fachschule) but don't know if they'd actively neglect some scores? Some people in the US don't have a concept of what another country is really like, only their imagination. And it's pretty ridiculous to blame poor education on immigrants when that's one of the biggest strengths of the US university system. | ||
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