EPTI think this guy has quite a good insight on this matter.
The paradox of schools and universities in America - Page 6
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eRoN_
91 Posts
I think this guy has quite a good insight on this matter. | ||
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
With more days and better managed breaks, they'd be fine. | ||
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YeahScience
United States6 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:02 svi wrote: China and Taiwan fails at graduate schools because they've only just recently entered the math/science arena, not because they emphasize 'memorization' or any of that bullshit. China never really gave a shit about physics or mathematics under Mao, so they've done nothing more than play catch up in recent years. They've only started to absorb western ideas like quantum mechanics a few decades ago, while Europe way ahead. On the other hand, America has the luxury of plucking away nearly every single one of Europe's greatest minds due to WWII and these people were able to teach and train American students which guaranteed them a strong generation. When you have geniuses like Godel/Neumann/Einstein/Dijstrka, etc how the hell are you not going to produce great grad students? How is China supposed to compete with people who learned firsthand from the masters while their previous generation were getting fucked by Mao? Well if by plucking you mean being a safe haven from fascists and racists then yes, you're correct.  That was a long time ago and many of those plucked scientists had long careers and many students in Europe before coming to America as well. Also, Linus Pauling, one of the more influential scientists of the 20th century (second to Einstein perhaps) was 100% American born and raised.Also that's a good point about just recently entering the graduate school system, I hadn't thought about it. But that doesn't excuse blatant plagiarism at the graduate school level in China. reference: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v467/n7312/full/467153d.html | ||
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TheGiftedApe
United States1243 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:02 svi wrote: China and Taiwan fails at graduate schools because they've only just recently entered the math/science arena, not because they emphasize 'memorization' or any of that bullshit. China never really gave a shit about physics or mathematics under Mao, so they've done nothing more than play catch up in recent years. They've only started to absorb western ideas like quantum mechanics a few decades ago, while Europe way ahead. On the other hand, America has the luxury of plucking away nearly every single one of Europe's greatest minds due to WWII and these people were able to teach and train American students which guaranteed them a strong generation. When you have geniuses like Godel/Neumann/Einstein/Dijstrka, etc how the hell are you not going to produce great grad students? How is China supposed to compete with people who learned firsthand from the masters while their previous generation were getting fucked by Mao? you do realize those scientists came over in fear of their lives, and not just because Americans "plucked them" right? Einstein came over well before the 1940's, along with hundreds of other European scientists who disliked the war mongering regimes of the early 1900's European continent, which often limited their research to subjects that could be used for war or domination of the other European countries. Who knows where Europe would be right now had they not blasted themselves back into the stone age from 1910-1945. Funny we are on this subject right after this comes out: (http://www.businessinsider.com/jasek-rostowski-war-poland-2011-9) | ||
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Kemy
105 Posts
And if i'm not terribly mistaken most research faculties in universities actually pay for themselves through their research and consulting. Prestige comes from research results which attracts more talented people which in turn produces more notable results. American universities somehow managed to get that initial advantage over others maybe also due to English being an international language. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:22 Kemy wrote: I wouldn't say it's all about the money but more about prestige in general. Here in Switzerland you can attend any university basically for free and these institutions still do pretty well in international rankings. And if i'm not terribly mistaken most research faculties in universities actually pay for themselves through their research and consulting. Prestige comes from research results which attracts more talented people which in turn produces more notable results. American universities somehow managed to get that initial advantage over others maybe also due to English being an international language. America also has a lot of companies who know how to take advantage of said research through partnerships. Professors, especially in business schools, frequently consult with corporations. The university takes a huge cut out of it as well. They also benefit from having a lot of cheap, smart, overworked, indentured servants, many of whom are foreign. I believe the term for these overworked, enslaved peons is "graduate student" or "graduate assistant". | ||
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svi
405 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:17 TheGiftedApe wrote: you do realize those scientists came over in fear of their lives, and not just because Americans "plucked them" right? Einstein came over well before the 1940's, along with hundreds of other European scientists who disliked the war mongering regimes of the early 1900's European continent, which often limited their research to subjects that could be used for war or domination of the other European countries. Who knows where Europe would be right now had they not blasted themselves back into the stone age from 1910-1945. Funny we are on this subject right after this comes out: (http://www.businessinsider.com/jasek-rostowski-war-poland-2011-9) Of course I realize that; I said in a earlier post that they came because of the war. European universities like Gottingen produced some of the greatest mathematicians and physicists ever (Gauss, Riemann, Hilbert, Kronecker, Dirichlet, Planck etc) but then that university went to a downward slope because they lost all their talent in the war. Even Hilbert said that there was no math and science there after everyone left. In order to produce good science you need to be learning from some of the smartest people and all of those smartest people shifted from Europe to America. Countries like China can't compete when they've only recently started learning modern science (due to political reasons and becoming closed off from the west). Would you rather be learning grad school material from someone who worked and learned from the greatest scientists of his age or a Chinese professor who only started reading the works of these scientists a few decades ago? | ||
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Maand
326 Posts
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yiodee
United States137 Posts
Meanwhile, there are much less universities that get tossed ludicrous amounts of money to make research projects and buy equipment, hire faculty, etc. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
Of course it can be a little misleading to compare high earners in one country to the average of another but the point is there are more than enough kids who are prepared well enough to shine in these top universities. | ||
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silverstone12
United Kingdom13 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:45 paralleluniverse wrote: However, this has always struck me as paradoxical, because America has the best universities in the world -- by far. Nearly all of the top ranked universities are American. No other country is even *remotely* close. ? i am fairly sure the best university in the world is English | ||
TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
But in terms of knowledge... I don't think American schools are really better at the undergraduate level. At the graduate level they are, simply because you are working with better researchers, but at the undergraduate level I think most students go through college without ever really working hard. It's all just beer, babes, and marijuana. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:40 silverstone12 wrote: i am fairly sure the best university in the world is English [Edit: my mistake -- a few English schools did not come to mind right away that really are prestigious.] As for "best in the world," Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and CalTech are regarded as being on the same level. We have probably about 70 of the top 100 in just about any international ranking. That's what thread op is talking about. Here are a few international rankings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_University_Rankings Currently, Harvard is ranked #1 by each of these, and therefore should be considered the best university in the world. | ||
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silverstone12
United Kingdom13 Posts
On September 24 2011 03:53 Mortality wrote: England has Oxford, Cambridge, and that's it. I don't mean to make little of any other English schools, but while you have 2 in the top 10, I doubt you have even 5 in the top 100. As for "best in the world," Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and CalTech are regarded as being on the same level. We have probably about 70 of the top 100 in just about any international ranking. That's what thread op is talking about. im just going by http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011 - im not in university so feel free to correct me if this site is full of crap. having 4 in the top 10 is pretty awesome for such a tiny country though. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On September 24 2011 01:59 paralleluniverse wrote: That's an interesting note. I didn't know there were so many international students. There's a ton of international students, even at the public universities (I went to UCLA). Despite them paying a huge tuition (I played less than 1/5 of what they did being from California) there's enough that whenever I go abroad I'll meet at least one person who knows someone at UCLA. Not to mention that people abroad have even heard of my public school tells you it's fairly international. As someone else mentioned, America has been a haven for war torn Europe in the first half the 20th Century, but even in the 2nd half the 20th Century, America continued to receive intellectuals from Eastern Europe (Andrew Grove, co-founder of Intel walked across the Hungarian-Austrian border for example). Not to mention the Asian intellectuals from S. Korea, Taiwan, China and Japan while those countries rebuilt from WW2 and lingering political reasons (S. Korea and Taiwan weren't always democracies and China had that entire civil war and other things of course). On September 24 2011 03:40 silverstone12 wrote: i am fairly sure the best university in the world is English Granted, Oxford and Edinburgh will make any list of top universities, but so would every single Ivy League University, which is why he said 'nearly all' and 'the best universities' plural. Edit: Looks like I'm late to this party, Edinburgh seems to jump up and down these lists and for some reason I keep thinking Oxford and Cambridge are two sides of the same school (boy is that not the case). | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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Slaughter
United States20255 Posts
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