EPTOccupy Wall Street - Page 83
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On October 18 2011 07:18 Velr wrote: This whole thing is basically just against money ruling/influencing our goverment. You could call it "fight against corruption/lobbyism/corporate influence"... Whatever, it doesn't matter and it certainly does not need a totally mapped out idea behind it because the whole "demand" is really as grassroots as it gets... What I don't get is how fighting against corporate influence will fix any of our current economic problems. Hint: it won't. OWS should be protesting the Republicans and the Tea Party, not some amorphous concept like "corporations." Despite all the energy, their efforts are a waste if it doesn't translate into political success. Because despite what the protesters claim, protest isn't the highest form of democracy, fucking voting is. The truth of the matter is that the political process is paralyzed not because of corporate influence, but because a large swath of Americans don't like Obama, no matter how wise his policies are. Unfortunately, OWS is more interested in chasing corporate conspiracies rather than tackling the root cause of the problem. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13994 Posts
On October 18 2011 08:22 Samwisethebrave wrote: I'm glad that the conversation here is civil an orderly (mostly). I would expect no less from TL posters. Yeah trolls are trolls but there are a really good series of posts on people. That guy is no different then a troll. He's just shouting the same things. You don't wear riot gear to a war you wear body armor. Does he want the police to not go to the protests? He thinks yelling at people who don't want to be there more then the next guy is going to help anything? Its just bullshit to support this "fuck the cops" attitude and you don't have to be a genius to see that. You want to see an urban war zone then wait for the next national political convention and see the police in action. you see squads of them running around in 4 van convoys and the whole system is run by a central command like a war zone. massive barricades around the convention area and anarchists burning and pillaging everything in sight. herp derp they're going to try and infiltrate. Its not illegal and its the same case as undercover cops. Do you think its wrong for people to act like they're bikers and gangsters all for the public good? They didn't do anything wrong you can say "they where trying to start violence and justify shutting down our protests" all you want but there's no proof of that just them trying to look the part. Of course they won't want their Identities known to the public because crazies at these protests are going to find them and kill/threaten their families. My dads a cop and its happened to us a few times. He doesn't have his home address on his drivers licence for that very reason. Cops are always going to get a short stick when protests and civil rights movements happen. At the end of the day they're fucking job is to enforce the law no matter what onto everyone. It would be unconstitutional if they didn't treat the OWS protests any different the Nazi rallies. Keep that in mind next time there's some anti police bandwagon going on. | ||
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Macabre
United States1262 Posts
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-spreads-worldwide/100171/ Organized by no one, yet everyone. Today was the 1 month of occupation at wallstreet. the biggest group of people I've seen at Zuccotti so far  | ||
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Scrimpton
United Kingdom465 Posts
On October 18 2011 08:29 domovoi wrote: What I don't get is how fighting against corporate influence will fix any of our current economic problems. Hint: it won't. OWS should be protesting the Republicans and the Tea Party, not some amorphous concept like "corporations." Despite all the energy, their efforts are a waste if it doesn't translate into political success. Because despite what the protesters claim, protest isn't the highest form of democracy, fucking voting is. The truth of the matter is that the political process is paralyzed not because of corporate influence, but because a large swath of Americans don't like Obama, no matter how wise his policies are. Unfortunately, OWS is more interested in chasing corporate conspiracies rather than tackling the root cause of the problem. The entire country political process is being stifled by members of the public not liking Obama? And here i was thinking Obama held power over even life and death now, yet here you say he's being strangled by "a large swathe of Americans" ? Attacking politicians surely does nothing of good if the only way they get elected is via the war chests provided by corporations. Fixing current problems isn't the only thing at stake here either, it's "fixing" past, present and future problems, and mistakes that are being repeated consistently even in the short timespan of a 3 year period. Correct me if im retarded. | ||
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BioNova
United States598 Posts
On October 18 2011 09:16 Scrimpton wrote: The entire country political process is being stifled by members of the public not liking Obama? And here i was thinking Obama held power over even life and death now, yet here you say he's being strangled by "a large swathe of Americans" ? Attacking politicians surely does nothing of good if the only way they get elected is via the war chests provided by corporations. Fixing current problems isn't the only thing at stake here either, it's "fixing" past, present and future problems, and mistakes that are being repeated consistently even in the short timespan of a 3 year period. Correct me if im retarded. Nope, your good. I was actually chuckling a bit to myself thinking "I've never seen anyone invoking Obama used in that manner, nor have I seen him live up to more than 2%(speculation) of his campaign promises he actually could have done by now. Not a big fan of that Marine video, just my impression of him soapboxing for a camera | ||
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On October 18 2011 08:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys the look on the cops face was priceless. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On October 18 2011 09:16 Scrimpton wrote: The entire country political process is being stifled by members of the public not liking Obama? And here i was thinking Obama held power over even life and death now, yet here you say he's being strangled by "a large swathe of Americans" ? Despite what you may hear, the President cannot usually just dictate policy as he sees fit. We have this democratically-elected body of legislators known as Congress, perhaps you've heard of it? Did you know that all US legislation comes out of the body? Did you know that one of the bodies is currently held by a majority belonging to a party opposed to President Obama? Did you know the other Congressional body is subject to a rule called a "filibuster" which has been so abused that basically any legislation of any significance requires 60% of the legislators to approve? Attacking politicians surely does nothing of good if the only way they get elected is via the war chests provided by corporations. Have you never fucking heard of the Tea Party? Elections cost money to run, sure, but it's ultimately the voters who decide who to elect. And don't fucking tell me that Republicans prefer to cater to their corporate masters instead of their brain-dead constituents. Because anyone who isn't fucking ignorant can see how untrue that is. It's not corporations that want to repeal ACA, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that don't want the jobs bill to pass, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that hate fiscal stimulus, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that threaten the Fed if they even dare think about using their powers to fulfill their mandate of "full employment," it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that are against unemployment insurance, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that want to defund public schools, it's the Tea Party. Too bad the OWS movement has its head stuck too far up its own ass to notice this. Correct me if im retarded. Here's me correcting you. User was warned for this post | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On October 18 2011 09:26 BioNova wrote: Nope, your good. I was actually chuckling a bit to myself thinking "I've never seen anyone invoking Obama used in that manner, nor have I seen him live up to more than 2%(speculation) of his campaign promises he actually could have done by now. Which one of his campaign promises could he have done that he hasn't? Let me remind you that the President is not a dictator, he can't just enact whatever policy he pleases. | ||
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Smoot
United States128 Posts
On October 18 2011 09:54 domovoi wrote: It's not corporations that want to repeal ACA, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that don't want the jobs bill to pass, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that hate fiscal stimulus, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that threaten the Fed if they even dare think about using their powers to fulfill their mandate of "full employment," it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that are against unemployment insurance, it's the Tea Party. It's not corporations that want to defund public schools, it's the Tea Party. I'm not part of the Tea Party but... I am 100% against a Temporary jobs bill that builds roads or bridges. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act was not used to help create a single job. Instead it was used to create temporary work for a short period of time. When the money ran out the work disappeared. There was zero infrastructure built with the ARRA, and I do not want to see more of the same come down the pipe. If we are not using the money to build infrastructure then its not fixing anything long term. I am 100% against stimulus. Again, its a temporary fix which does nothing in the long run. I am 100% against the current budgets of the public school system. If you look at the books at most public schools you will notice that the major portion of budget spending is done on administration. Which means that the major spending isn't for teachers, it isn't for school programs, it is not for school supplies, or for facilities improvement. I am 100% against 99 weeks worth of unemployment insurance. I personally know 2 people who have collected for 99 weeks. When that insurance was up, they had a job within 1 month. I am not against temporary unemployment, but two years is a bit much. It enables people not to work. Not sure why we have so much hate being directed towards political parties. Every other election cycle runs the same propaganda no matter who is in control of congress or the presidency. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13994 Posts
On October 18 2011 10:32 Smoot wrote: I'm not part of the Tea Party but... I am 100% against a Temporary jobs bill that builds roads or bridges. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act was not used to help create a single job. Instead it was used to create temporary work for a short period of time. When the money ran out the work disappeared. There was zero infrastructure built with the ARRA, and I do not want to see more of the same come down the pipe. If we are not using the money to build infrastructure then its not fixing anything long term. I am 100% against stimulus. Again, its a temporary fix which does nothing in the long run. I am 100% against the current budgets of the public school system. If you look at the books at most public schools you will notice that the major portion of budget spending is done on administration. Which means that the major spending isn't for teachers, it isn't for school programs, it is not for school supplies, or for facilities improvement. I am 100% against 99 weeks worth of unemployment insurance. I personally know 2 people who have collected for 99 weeks. When that insurance was up, they had a job within 1 month. I am not against temporary unemployment, but two years is a bit much. It enables people not to work. Not sure why we have so much hate being directed towards political parties. Every other election cycle runs the same thing propaganda no matter who is in control of congress or the presidency. To be clear I'm of course against the OWS movement. That being said Your utterly wrong and an idiot. You have no idea how things work it seems. I know for certain that my town used that money to invest in redoing a bridge and developing everything on the other side of the town while the business's start to come into the shops. Its a fantastic bridge and a part of the ARRA was that part of the money go to the art of the infrastructure and I can tell you that was a very well spent money. Construction is the hardest hit industry out of this whole recession and any money that you can throw into that industry is good. A stimulus is not a temporary fix it is inherently an investment to get spending going again in the economy which is a key component of Keynesian economics. That is the economic theory the world has endorsed and proved throughout the last 100 years. Oblog epic youtube inc. + Show Spoiler + Dare not question the words of lord keynes. Now onto school budgets. School administration is an incredibly poorly PR'ed position. They aren't in the front lines but they do the same jobs as CEO's but with a fraction of the salary. What the system needs isn't more money or a moving around of the budget but a complete renovation of an system that's long in need of it. The very core of the system is rotting and it affects everything inside of it. That won't happen due to the public unions being (and rightly so might I add) afraid to shit about what that will mean for the teachers and whatnot. Welfare is one of those hard to work with things. you need it for the honest people it gets abused but Clinton did a lot of help to it to stop that from happening. anything more then what he did is hard to imagine and harder to reason. And then you make a really odd point. Thats exactly why they hate the political parties. Same shit different side? | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On October 18 2011 08:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys I want this guy on my team. | ||
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BioNova
United States598 Posts
On October 18 2011 10:00 domovoi wrote: Which one of his campaign promises could he have done that he hasn't? Let me remind you that the President is not a dictator, he can't just enact whatever policy he pleases. Guantanimo, with new prisons popping up in say...somalia, he could have sybolically shut it down. Would have made me at least superficially happy. Another marine, this time from Chicago + Show Spoiler + | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On October 18 2011 08:29 domovoi wrote: What I don't get is how fighting against corporate influence will fix any of our current economic problems. Hint: it won't. OWS should be protesting the Republicans and the Tea Party, not some amorphous concept like "corporations." Despite all the energy, their efforts are a waste if it doesn't translate into political success. Because despite what the protesters claim, protest isn't the highest form of democracy, fucking voting is. The truth of the matter is that the political process is paralyzed not because of corporate influence, but because a large swath of Americans don't like Obama, no matter how wise his policies are. Unfortunately, OWS is more interested in chasing corporate conspiracies rather than tackling the root cause of the problem. Yea, corporations have nothing to do with this crisis. Let's pretend that campaign "donations" are not at an all time high. Give your congressman a call, and see if he'll talk to you personally without a "campaign contribution." Money talks. Corporations wield power over politics. Anyone that doesn't see this is in denial. Whether we vote Democrat or Republican, we're allowed to talk about trivial issues, but there are some things that aren't up for debate. That's because the lobbyists have voiced their opinions. We still pursue the same interests (such as the wars we're in) whether we elect a democrat that claims he'll take us out or a Republican that is pro-war. Hey, I know what America needs. It just needs to spend money. Don't have any? I know what you need: A sub-prime mortgage loan! If you got one of these, you could help save the economy. But, hey, I'm sure it's the government that "forced" these poor bankers to invest into risky investments. And then, it was the government that chose to bail these poor bankers out, because it's not like they were being blackmailed or anything. "If we fail the whole economy will collapse!" Voting changes things. Protests influence votes. But, sure, tell people to stop protesting and vote instead. That will keep things the same, which is what you seem to desire. The political process is being paralyzed because of Americans not liking Obama? Okay, let's step back a moment: Congress passed a bunch of garbage that Obama wanted: The abomination known as Obamacare, and the Stimulus bill. But NOW it's being stifled? Okay, so the first Stimulus didn't work because it wasn't big enough... then Obama proposes a smaller stimulus and this is gonna help? How about the political process is being paralyzed because Congress isn't willing to pass a real budget that makes the necessary cuts. And this has nothing to do with Obama, this is coming down to Congress not willing to act. The idea that somehow American's hatred of Obama is influencing this is ridiculous. Nothing Obama has proposed is going to solve the problem, even if Congress agreed to it. Why won't Congress fix this problem? A) Hands are tied by campaign funding. B) Obsession with re-election paralyzes them from making the hard choices. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On October 18 2011 06:53 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Congratulations, OWS has gotten the long sought after Nazi endorsement. http://anp14.com/news/archives.php?report_date=2011-10-16 And Socialist Party USA Also China is a big fan of OWS too http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/china-says-wall-street-protests-highlight-issues-worth-considering/2011/10/17/gIQARM62qL_story.html?wprss=rss_world (use this not only as an informative post but also an ironic one because the movement was started by socialists and communists). Can anyone explain why almost every single protester complains about their student loans, but not a single one of them are outside protesting universities (the only entities that can stop 5-10% yearly tuition inflation)? Universities raise tuition because government funding has decreased drastically since the late 60s. Universities need to stay afloat. | ||
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
On October 18 2011 08:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys This guy really annoys me. | ||
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jubil
United States2602 Posts
On October 18 2011 12:59 caradoc wrote: Universities raise tuition because government funding has decreased drastically since the late 60s. Universities need to stay afloat. Not all universities... http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S31/80/01M66/index.xml?section=topstories (Princeton endowment up 22% over the past year, to $17 billion) You'd think they could starting putting serious cuts in tuition with that kind of money, but what do I know... : P But for public universities, yes that is the case. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On October 18 2011 12:59 caradoc wrote: Universities raise tuition because government funding has decreased drastically since the late 60s. Universities need to stay afloat. Universities raise tuition because it's necessary. A lot of this has to do with the nature of student loans and the 90/10 rule. Commercial banks for the most part have been taken out of the student loan business, so only the gov can give them out. And every time they raise loan limits, tuition will go up. Take away the loans, the University collapses as it can't afford to pay costs due to a lack of students and their extraneous building projects. It's not that government funding has decreased so much as it is that government funding is now practically funding all the universities in an otherwise unsustainable system. Tuition will necessarily go down if it no longer has the massive amount of students taking on debt that they could otherwise not afford. In other words, make loans more difficult to get, and tuition necessarily goes down. This has the consequence, however, of the harsh fact that not everyone will get to go to college. Student loans and scholarships make high tuition possible. They also make it possible for "anyone" to go that wants to. For example, if none of these existed, then Universities would be forced to lower prices in order to gain more students. There really is no simple solution here. Because if you force Universities to lower tuition, you're going to see a lot of them collapse outright. In any case, protesting against the Universities is just plain silly. They are doing what they have to. | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
http://www.zcommunications.org/the-occupy-movement-by-michael-albert Brief talk with Chomsky: This one is really good too-- I like what he says about making the movement more local as well: And this is a great article called 'making the one percent squirm' : http://www.zcommunications.org/watching-the-one-percent-squirm-by-danny-lucia | ||
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BioNova
United States598 Posts
In any case, protesting against the Universities is just plain silly. They are doing what they have to. That's a nice sly statement. What stands out here is they are harassing the 'Keynesian' Ground Zero. The economics dept has it coming. | ||
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