On October 07 2011 19:12 BlackFlag wrote: Economics are subjective, there is no objective truth in the field of Economics, just like in every other social-science. You view of Economics (Capitalism, Neoclassicism) is as much an Ideology as is Fascism or Communism. There is no objective truth, it's dependant what you think is the fundamental use of an economic system. Communism is not more true or objective, than any libertarian. They are different views on what the use of the economic system should be.
Edit: But as I see it you will probably even disagree on the thing that Economics are subjective. They aren't a hard science like Physics or Chemistry.
Why do you state such things when you obviously haven't researched in these areas and are merely stating your own opinion?
Do you even know what "subjective Economics" is? Or are you just writing that down to say that it isn't "real" science compared to what you perceive that is?
Of course Economics isn't simply pure ideology when you access it methodologicly correct. Yes, it is based on assumptions. But as long as you STATE what these assumptions are, the theory can be developed in a perfectly solid way. For instance the often mis-understood homo economicus. It does NOT say that every human being only acts rationally. It says that if we ASSUME that human beings act rationally, then a), b) and c) can be shown. Which makes it a proper theory. Some wise man once said that trying to depict the world without simplifications would be like drawing a map 1:1. Simplifications and assumptions are inherently necessary for any economic model because otherwise you couldn't show anything at all. Somebody might find it funny to sell his car for 5 bucks - obviously no economic model can account for that, otherwise it would be a monstrosity and utterly useless.
To make my point more clear: the science that is sometimes called the most "hard", "real" science - maths - is nothing more than a huge pile of...yes...assumptions. The whole mathematic system is created by human beings, it doesn't exist in "nature". The decade system was developed by mankind because it proved to be the perfect way to describe certain things since it possesses certain properties. Most of the research in maths is done WITHIN this artificially created system.
And Physics, Chemistry, etc. can never "prove" anything either, the whole field of natural science is based on falsification. You make - yes - assumptions, then try to prove them wrong. You'll never be able to prove that neutrinos are in fact faster than light, you can only repeat the test again and again and again and look for errors that prove that the measurement contained an error. On top of this, these "hard" sciences rely very deeply on statistics to make any statements at all. To get back to the neutrino example: the scientists were able to get a statistical significance of six sigma. Meaning, there's still a - low - probability that the results don't hold up at all.
TL; DR: each and every science is restricted by the methods available to it and can make "objective" statements only under certain assumptions. The final "truth" cannot be shown by any scientific method, as Popper has correctly pointed out.
On October 07 2011 02:13 thane wrote: Someone correct me if Im wrong but from the information I collected this is just about people who have lots of money right? I think its more prudent to go after politicians getting paid by special interest groups and companies to support bad economic policies. Please feel free to set me straight if I am wrong I don't know very much about this movement.
Nobody really knows much about the protest. I wouldn't call it a movement, because there is no message or demand. It is just a confluence of students, and union workers, etc. looking for an excuse to protest and seemingly to demand more entitlements. Students want jobs, and union workers demand more entitlements... two demands entirely in conflict btw. The irony is that many of these people voted for Obama who is in the pocket of Goldman Sachs. You wouldn't see them protesting Obama however, otherwise they would be accused of being tea-partiers and subsequently lynched.
Ok that makes sense I keep getting conflicting information say its about A or B etc. I really do wish that people would wake up and get ride of politicians being "in someones pocket" to steal your phrase. It would make more sense to get rid of the greed and bad economic planning than to just cry about the current situation.
This is straight from the wiki page"The participants of the event are mainly protesting against social and economic inequality, corporate greed, and the influence of corporate money and lobbyists on government, among other concerns." I know Wiki is not the best but maybe its better than nothing.
Hi, Can you really say there is no motive? the general sentiment i read/feel is that people are fed up with inequality, unfairness and corruption.
These subjects in themselves are very complicated specially because everyone experience them differently but at the end they all are the same.
That is why for most people (i.e. on this thread) trying to understand want is happening there and not being physically present at the protest. The demands seem incoherent for a lot of people because of the variety of demands and complains.
But if you look at them without your own judgement and you understand what the most basic expectations of people are, that is; transcending the way you think, for example not thinking in mental frameworks such as nationality, politics, racial and other mental imposes limitations. We can see things differently, because at the end, we humans have the same expectations of life.
And that is to be treated respectful, peaceful and equal (this may sound for some people as a hippie thing) but i ask you in all seriousness, if you are with the people you like and love, don't they treat you like this?
So people have started to realize if we don't do anything about these problems outside our personal sphere. i.e. politics, economics, government, corporations, our own morals, and values which have been corrupted for a very long time, We will never attain what we are looking for i.e. happiness, joy, equality, fairness respect.
As i see it now corruption, inequality, unfairness has invade everyone`s life because we have not been able to understand that if the world is corrupt so are we. Because if you objectively look at the world as a whole then there is no other conclusion than that we live in a system which is based on, greed, backstabbing, lies, and conflict.
Besides from a strategic point of view (that is if the protesters want to succeed) they can't have clear demands because if they would then other people wouldn't join in the protest, i.e. unions. different ages, different social backgrounds etc. and it would fail. (it would exclude other people as they wouldn't feel related to it).
e.g. if you say I`m fighting inequality more people will join then if you would formulated it specific, such as i want that African american people have more rights and that their rights are protected properly. (you see how specifying demands will exclude masses)?
So having a very broad demand/complain means people of all different kind of trades will be drawn to it because they will want to give input in what has to be changed.
And i think you can expect in the coming weeks that the demands will become more clear as more people will join and as more people will agree on what really are the problems. (i`m not implying i know the problems, its just the way i give name to things.)
I have been at the protest. I had to squeeze by to get to work. There is no intelligence at this protest. There are people with a wide range of slogans, some calling for increases in the minimum wage, others complaining about rich Wall street elite. None of them have any understanding of what is going on in the economy and in politics. They recognize that there is a problem, but they don't understand the causality, and therefore have no way to recognize a solution. The fact that they choose to be loud instead of getting educated on the issues at hand is an insult to those of us who understand the processes necessary to effect change.
I don't follow this line of thought. The inability to articulate the problem (or it's solution) doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Is it really too much to hope that politicians will hear the protests, do their job, and come up with solutions?
People generally should make an effort to understand things though, even at the basic level. Can they really not unify around one area of improvement, even if its a bit vague? Why not demand government accountability and transparency around the area of corporate lobbying?
The thing is...the whole thing appears kind of childish. This is something that is obviously complicated and has a lot of different factors that play into it...just protesting to say "fix capitalism guys!" is kind of insulting. These are systemic problems and they aren't going to be fixed because a bunch of youth and radicals decide to get together.
I mean you have a point...its important that people protest to bring awareness to the problem. But at the same time, they protesters have some responsibility to make *some* effort towards understanding these things.
The fact that they all go to protest, and publicly announce that they don't know what they're protesting and they might agree on it later, is kind of ridiculous.
Yeah, I agree with you as well that it'd be nice to have a movement with a stronger message and what not.
But.... put it like this, would this thread with this discussion have existed without the movement? Would people have the golden opportunity to instill wisdom and ideologies on the protesters (and those watching them)? Aren't the protests ripe for someone to come out with a good platform and win the sway of the people and direct them towards change?
Sure I'd really like if the protesters made more effort to know more on the issues and ideally suppress their more radical views, very much like my thoughts on the Tea Party, but I'm glad to have an imperfect protest vs no protest at all.
Yeah, I agree that the protests will bring more positive consequences then negative. It might be kind of irritating for various reasons, but it will get people talking and that can only be a good thing.
Ultimately I wish we could get professors of economics discussing these things, and debating their ideas on a public forum...like a super think tank of some kind! And just televise like a week long debate, where they could bring forward all their ideas and try to settle how things should be fixed. Of course they could also invite former politicians and heads of state to cover the other angles.
Yeah, because the "elite" that did all the economy policy was in no way involved int he current fuckup...
...and the Occupy Wall Streeters would just love for the government to start encouraging risky money again, except directly, not indirectly like last time.
And people think these yahoos will actually accomplish something. They will sit around and stink up the joint until the locals demand the police roust them out, after which they will be shocked and indignant at how the country doesn't explode in anger at the police tossing bums out of public spaces they're stinking up.
And people think these yahoos will actually accomplish something. They will sit around and stink up the joint until the locals demand the police roust them out, after which they will be shocked and indignant at how the country doesn't explode in anger at the police tossing bums out of public spaces they're stinking up.
Believe it or not, the right to protest - even to protest for causes that you personally disagree with, is fundamental to the operation of a free, democratic society.
For some reason though, Tea Party racism gets a free pass, but OWS seems to get all up in the grills of some people.
Believe it or not, the right to protest - even to protest for causes that you personally disagree with, is fundamental to the operation of a free, democratic society.
I didn't say anything about their right to protest.
Sad that your mind goes there, though. Very indicative of how you think about dissenters.
For some reason though, Tea Party racism gets a free pass, but OWS seems to get all up in the grills of some people.
ROFLMAO
Yeah man, the media and the Democrats and people like yourself, they just gave the Tea Party a free pass on alleged racism. There weren't thousands of news stories and editorials and speeches and remarks made on television, debates, etc. No one said anything about alleged Tea Party racism, it just got a free pass.
Were you living in a cave, on LSD 24/7, or perhaps living in David Brock's guest room for the past 18 months?
Believe it or not, the right to protest - even to protest for causes that you personally disagree with, is fundamental to the operation of a free, democratic society.
I didn't say anything about their right to protest.
You said they should be ousted by the police, which says that you think it would be ok to shut them up and take away their right to protest. You make it pretty easy for yourself.
I think its an interesting and intelligent movement lead and represented by uninteresting and stupid people. If this changes anything for the better in terms of workers pay and the economy in general it will go down as one of the great revolutions of our time. But if idiots like the kid in the video 4 or 5 posts above me keep opening their mouths and spewing some of the dumbest shit i've ever heard, well, this will just go down as another dumbass social event.
On October 07 2011 23:09 Mattchew wrote: I think its an interesting and intelligent movement lead and represented by uninteresting and stupid people. If this changes anything for the better in terms of workers pay and the economy in general it will go down as one of the great revolutions of our time. But if idiots like the kid in the video 4 or 5 posts above me keep opening their mouths and spewing some of the dumbest shit i've ever heard, well, this will just go down as another dumbass social event.
It isn't lead by anyone. It's decentralized and pretty keen on base democracy.
Yeah, because the "elite" that did all the economy policy was in no way involved int he current fuckup...
...and the Occupy Wall Streeters would just love for the government to start encouraging risky money again, except directly, not indirectly like last time.
And people think these yahoos will actually accomplish something. They will sit around and stink up the joint until the locals demand the police roust them out, after which they will be shocked and indignant at how the country doesn't explode in anger at the police tossing bums out of public spaces they're stinking up.
been listening to oreilly lately? Is the whole movement based on anti-semitism? I think they'll be thrown out once some false flags get thrown in to discredit the movement. Those whiteshirts are getting pretty nefarious every time we see them. It's not wrong for you to doubt the movement, but what alternative would you suggest to fixing the system?
You said they should be ousted by the police, which says that you think it would be ok to shut them up and take away their right to protest. You make it pretty easy for yourself.
They will sit around and stink up the joint until the locals demand the police roust them out
lolol
you're hilarious
"You make it pretty easy" turn the contempt down to level 2 you're a bit high right now
apparently you think that free speech means the right to occupy private property, disrupt other people's regular lives, etc., indefinitely, which is funny because i dont think youd appreciate a dozen people shitting up your front lawn for weeks on end.
sorry but they have the right to protest within the law, which is basically, dont fuck with other people and you can stand around 24/7 until the end of time giving voice to your opinion. i support this.
i dont even support the police removing them because i think if left on their own the thing will just peter out eventually, i just think that the locals will demand the police protect their rights and i think it will be amusing when it happens.
also, saying that i think it would be ok to shut them up and take away their right to protest, that is just ridiculous speculation with absolutely no support from anything i said and honestly you should be ashamed of yourself for saying that
in case you dont know, if the police broke up the protest, the vast majority of the protestors would not be shut up, and 100% of them would not have their right to protest taken away because doing that would be highly highly illegal and rightfully so.
so i hope this has disabused you of your ridiculous notions that i am some kind of fascist, it is no fun having the useful idiot anarcho-libertarocialist crowd insinuating you enjoy jackboots just because you dare presume disagree with their opinions
been listening to oreilly lately?
no, and never.
see what i mean, the endless assumptions, oreilly, who cares. he plays to the peanut gallery, he's a carnival attraction. him and all the rest on the right and the left who are in the infotainment cable "news" business
no, i dont think antisemitism is driving the protests, but i would bet money that there are lots of anti-semites there
It's not wrong for you to doubt the movement, but what alternative would you suggest to fixing the system?
something other than the immature, juvenile kind of left-opportunist marxist-leninist thought these Occupy Wall Street tools spout, to borrow a Stalinist epithet.
On September 18 2011 07:43 shurgen wrote: If you really think that Wall Street is this completely evil and corrupt force whose goal is to make the lives of the non-super rich awful, you have it very wrong.
I'm not saying no one in that industry is corrupt. There are corrupt people everywhere, from your local community organization, to the boards of the world's largest and most influential companies. But in all honesty, more than 99.9% of people who work in 'Wall Street' (the construct, not the actual street) are just normal people like you and I, doing something for a living that pays the bills and let's them have some financial freedom to enjoy their lives.
hate to break it to you buddy but if your on wall st then ur in FINANCE and if ur on wall street itself you either own massive stock or are an investor both of which are truly greedy disgusting things. we're not talking baout banks themselves but rather the day traders and CEO's not the little people
hate to break it to you buddy but if your on wall st then ur in FINANCE and if ur on wall street itself you either own massive stock or are an investor both of which are truly greedy disgusting things. we're not talking baout banks themselves but rather the day traders and CEO's not the little people
it must be weird to live in a world where entire classes of people are greedy disgusting things. almost as if they weren't human.
On September 18 2011 10:59 HaRuHi wrote: This potentially restores my faith into mankind. Hope they all get shot by cops or the army, so they really can start to show people how sick the world has become. Probably they gonna get just interviewed and after a few month no one will any longer care about this.
Then someone will write a book to make some cash of the event and some talkshows will interview the "revolutioners of the wallstreet" + documention.
Oh god, pls let them all get killed brutally! gl guys
That made me legitimately laugh out loud, because it's horrible but you're absolutely right. They get news coverage (that's why everyone loves "Cops", who doesn't enjoy police brutality) and now we get thousands of "innocent" martyrs. And start the revolution.
And people think these yahoos will actually accomplish something. They will sit around and stink up the joint until the locals demand the police roust them out, after which they will be shocked and indignant at how the country doesn't explode in anger at the police tossing bums out of public spaces they're stinking up.
Believe it or not, the right to protest - even to protest for causes that you personally disagree with, is fundamental to the operation of a free, democratic society.
For some reason though, Tea Party racism gets a free pass, but OWS seems to get all up in the grills of some people.
I don't think that's true, I don't see OWS getting a free pass if the racial/antisemitism stuff comes out more prominently. It's been an issue for the Tea Party because of a few reasons, one part the whole Obama birth-er stuff seemed to be more invasive and central to the movement for a time. Meanwhile videos like this are more isolated and seem to be centered around individuals.
Another part, just as importantly, is that it plays on the pre-conceived stereotypes. The OWS doesn't get crap for racism/antisemitism because instead they get crap for being hippies which plays on THEIR pre-conceived stereotypes. Right wingers are always stereotyped as racist/antisemites, the left as liberal hippies. These 2 movements aren't having all that much luck freeing themselves from the stereotypes.
If anything OWS has made me respect Tea Party even more and I see both movements as centered around the same issues that the mainstream part of the parties have seen fit to largely ignore (or cause). The only difference is how the two movements want to fix the problems. As always, debate and discourse is probably good for the system and solution.
You said they should be ousted by the police, which says that you think it would be ok to shut them up and take away their right to protest. You make it pretty easy for yourself.
They will sit around and stink up the joint until the locals demand the police roust them out
lolol
you're hilarious
"You make it pretty easy" turn the contempt down to level 2 you're a bit high right now
apparently you think that free speech means the right to occupy private property, disrupt other people's regular lives, etc., indefinitely, which is funny because i dont think youd appreciate a dozen people shitting up your front lawn for weeks on end.
sorry but they have the right to protest within the law, which is basically, dont fuck with other people and you can stand around 24/7 until the end of time giving voice to your opinion. i support this.
i dont even support the police removing them because i think if left on their own the thing will just peter out eventually, i just think that the locals will demand the police protect their rights and i think it will be amusing when it happens.
also, saying that i think it would be ok to shut them up and take away their right to protest, that is just ridiculous speculation with absolutely no support from anything i said and honestly you should be ashamed of yourself for saying that
in case you dont know, if the police broke up the protest, the vast majority of the protestors would not be shut up, and 100% of them would not have their right to protest taken away because doing that would be highly highly illegal and rightfully so.
so i hope this has disabused you of your ridiculous notions that i am some kind of fascist, it is no fun having the useful idiot anarcho-libertarocialist crowd insinuating you enjoy jackboots just because you dare presume disagree with their opinions
see what i mean, the endless assumptions, oreilly, who cares. he plays to the peanut gallery, he's a carnival attraction. him and all the rest on the right and the left who are in the infotainment cable "news" business
no, i dont think antisemitism is driving the protests, but i would bet money that there are lots of anti-semites there
It's not wrong for you to doubt the movement, but what alternative would you suggest to fixing the system?
something other than the immature, juvenile kind of left-opportunist marxist-leninist thought these Occupy Wall Street tools spout, to borrow a Stalinist epithet.
Well if they had a good reason for sitting in my garden, and clean up after they left why not? Until the locals demand it? Are the protesters not locals? And your talking like you will be happy when the protest gets broken up by the police so my notion that you want them to get shut up is not that far-fetched.
And I'm sick of people like you putting everyone that disagrees with you in a light as a stalinist that wants to build up a totalitarian state that oppresses everyone. You libertarians and conservatives always talk about freedom, but your freedom is only for those who can afford it.
On October 07 2011 22:49 Nightfall.589 wrote: For some reason though, Tea Party racism gets a free pass, but OWS seems to get all up in the grills of some people.
This is one of the most stupid, ill-informed comments that I have seen on these boards. Tea Party "racism" gets a pass? What in the world have you been smoking!? Every liberal/democratic black politician out there -- and even the NAACP -- has labelled the Tea Party racist.
EDIT: And hell, people label the Tea Party racist notwithstanding the fact that the most prominent Tea Party presidential candidate is BLACK.
hate to break it to you buddy but if your on wall st then ur in FINANCE and if ur on wall street itself you either own massive stock or are an investor both of which are truly greedy disgusting things. we're not talking baout banks themselves but rather the day traders and CEO's not the little people
it must be weird to live in a world where entire classes of people are greedy disgusting things. almost as if they weren't human.
no they're not human...... theyve gone too far to be considered human anymore. They take risks jeopardizing entire people for a little more money in their pocket they will never even spend they effectively own the majority vote because in this country senators arent all that expensive. Very difficult to pass laws limiting their power as they effedctively own congress and dont respect human life at all.... their only care is the dollar and yes to me that is disgusting greedy immoral and inhuman
You said they should be ousted by the police, which says that you think it would be ok to shut them up and take away their right to protest. You make it pretty easy for yourself.
They will sit around and stink up the joint until the locals demand the police roust them out
lolol
you're hilarious
"You make it pretty easy" turn the contempt down to level 2 you're a bit high right now
apparently you think that free speech means the right to occupy private property, disrupt other people's regular lives, etc., indefinitely, which is funny because i dont think youd appreciate a dozen people shitting up your front lawn for weeks on end.
sorry but they have the right to protest within the law, which is basically, dont fuck with other people and you can stand around 24/7 until the end of time giving voice to your opinion. i support this.
i dont even support the police removing them because i think if left on their own the thing will just peter out eventually, i just think that the locals will demand the police protect their rights and i think it will be amusing when it happens.
also, saying that i think it would be ok to shut them up and take away their right to protest, that is just ridiculous speculation with absolutely no support from anything i said and honestly you should be ashamed of yourself for saying that
in case you dont know, if the police broke up the protest, the vast majority of the protestors would not be shut up, and 100% of them would not have their right to protest taken away because doing that would be highly highly illegal and rightfully so.
so i hope this has disabused you of your ridiculous notions that i am some kind of fascist, it is no fun having the useful idiot anarcho-libertarocialist crowd insinuating you enjoy jackboots just because you dare presume disagree with their opinions
been listening to oreilly lately?
no, and never.
see what i mean, the endless assumptions, oreilly, who cares. he plays to the peanut gallery, he's a carnival attraction. him and all the rest on the right and the left who are in the infotainment cable "news" business
no, i dont think antisemitism is driving the protests, but i would bet money that there are lots of anti-semites there
It's not wrong for you to doubt the movement, but what alternative would you suggest to fixing the system?
something other than the immature, juvenile kind of left-opportunist marxist-leninist thought these Occupy Wall Street tools spout, to borrow a Stalinist epithet.
Well if they had a good reason for sitting in my garden, and clean up after they left why not? Until the locals demand it? Are the protesters not locals? And your talking like you will be happy when the protest gets broken up by the police so my notion that you want them to get shut up is not that far-fetched.
And I'm sick of people like you putting everyone that disagrees with you in a light as a stalinist that wants to build up a totalitarian state that oppresses everyone. You libertarians and conservatives always talk about freedom, but your freedom is only for those who can afford it.
hate to break it to you buddy but if your on wall st then ur in FINANCE and if ur on wall street itself you either own massive stock or are an investor both of which are truly greedy disgusting things. we're not talking baout banks themselves but rather the day traders and CEO's not the little people
it must be weird to live in a world where entire classes of people are greedy disgusting things. almost as if they weren't human.
It must be weird to live in a world where rich or powerful people don't abuse their power. Almost as if they weren't human.
EPT
