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On October 07 2011 06:14 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 01:03 Thorakh wrote:
I believe people won't understand why safety nets are necessary until they themselves lost their job, unable to find a new one and in urgent need of expensive medical treatment.
Now of course a safety net should be designed in a way such that it cannot be abused, but the fact that safety nets are being abused does not mean the very idea of a safety net is bad.
I am economy illiterate but I do strongly believe in paying for safety nets. You might be the one getting fired tomorrow and contracting a rare disease. It's not only out of selfinterest, I believe in a society caring for the weaker as well.
Can anyone explain to me why Americans are allergic to the word 'socialist'? Is it because their own limited safety nets are being abused left and right? I (ab-)used the safety net myself for a good part of my life - my father died early so I was granted an absurdly high pension. I never needed it, now I have approximately 100.000 € on my account (well, not account, but invested...still, I think you get my point). Saved up from both the "safety net" and my own work. Now tell me one thing: why the hell is this justified? Of course I didn't "reject" the money, but I definitely never felt like I deserved it. And thinking how many people like myself - receiving tons of money by doing nothing without needing it - are out there sickens me. Just for clarification: I didn't "betray" by stating wrong numbers and such...everything was 100% legal. EDIT: oh yeah, if I hadn't finished my studies so early, I would've received the pension way longer - cool system that encourages lazyness.
In your country are taxes very high? In that case you shouldn't dishonor your father by rejecting many years of tax payments he made to the government. That money is yours is and you deserve it because your father worked for it and I presume he wanted you to benefit from it.
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And this is poor in the eyes of America, on the 15th the entire world will start protesting against this system. It's about damn time, no way i want to raise kids in this system, its a fucking joke.
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put it simply for noobs that dont know or dont care to know. how big of a difference it is
ts like the 99% are zerglings
the corruption and rich are like an army of seige tanks, colo ,archons,ultras, and battle cruisers combined.
GET THE POINT?
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On October 07 2011 06:14 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 01:03 Thorakh wrote:
I believe people won't understand why safety nets are necessary until they themselves lost their job, unable to find a new one and in urgent need of expensive medical treatment.
Now of course a safety net should be designed in a way such that it cannot be abused, but the fact that safety nets are being abused does not mean the very idea of a safety net is bad.
I am economy illiterate but I do strongly believe in paying for safety nets. You might be the one getting fired tomorrow and contracting a rare disease. It's not only out of selfinterest, I believe in a society caring for the weaker as well.
Can anyone explain to me why Americans are allergic to the word 'socialist'? Is it because their own limited safety nets are being abused left and right? I (ab-)used the safety net myself for a good part of my life - my father died early so I was granted an absurdly high pension. I never needed it, now I have approximately 100.000 € on my account (well, not account, but invested...still, I think you get my point). Saved up from both the "safety net" and my own work. Now tell me one thing: why the hell is this justified? Of course I didn't "reject" the money, but I definitely never felt like I deserved it. And thinking how many people like myself - receiving tons of money by doing nothing without needing it - are out there sickens me. Just for clarification: I didn't "betray" by stating wrong numbers and such...everything was 100% legal. EDIT: oh yeah, if I hadn't finished my studies so early, I would've received the pension way longer - cool system that encourages lazyness.
Ok, let me get this clear: You _extremly_ profited of the social net, and now, that you sucked all profit out of it, and don't get this much anymore out of it, you want to reduce the social net for everyone? Am I understanding you right?
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On October 07 2011 06:44 koonst wrote:
put it simply for noobs that dont know or dont care to know. how big of a difference it is
ts like the 99% are zerglings
the corruption and rich are like an army of seige tanks, colo ,archons,ultras, and battle cruisers combined.
GET THE POINT?
The 1% only have power for as long as the 99% allow it. 1% can't suppress 99%, they can merely trick and deceive them.
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On October 07 2011 04:35 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 04:23 scaban84 wrote:On October 07 2011 04:00 Saji wrote:On October 07 2011 02:30 thane wrote:On October 07 2011 02:25 scaban84 wrote:On October 07 2011 02:13 thane wrote:
Someone correct me if Im wrong but from the information I collected this is just about people who have lots of money right? I think its more prudent to go after politicians getting paid by special interest groups and companies to support bad economic policies. Please feel free to set me straight if I am wrong I don't know very much about this movement. Nobody really knows much about the protest. I wouldn't call it a movement, because there is no message or demand. It is just a confluence of students, and union workers, etc. looking for an excuse to protest and seemingly to demand more entitlements. Students want jobs, and union workers demand more entitlements... two demands entirely in conflict btw. The irony is that many of these people voted for Obama who is in the pocket of Goldman Sachs. You wouldn't see them protesting Obama however, otherwise they would be accused of being tea-partiers and subsequently lynched. Ok that makes sense I keep getting conflicting information say its about A or B etc. I really do wish that people would wake up and get ride of politicians being "in someones pocket" to steal your phrase. It would make more sense to get rid of the greed and bad economic planning than to just cry about the current situation. This is straight from the wiki page"The participants of the event are mainly protesting against social and economic inequality, corporate greed, and the influence of corporate money and lobbyists on government, among other concerns." I know Wiki is not the best but maybe its better than nothing. Hi, Can you really say there is no motive? the general sentiment i read/feel is that people are fed up with inequality, unfairness and corruption. These subjects in themselves are very complicated specially because everyone experience them differently but at the end they all are the same. That is why for most people (i.e. on this thread) trying to understand want is happening there and not being physically present at the protest. The demands seem incoherent for a lot of people because of the variety of demands and complains. But if you look at them without your own judgement and you understand what the most basic expectations of people are, that is; transcending the way you think, for example not thinking in mental frameworks such as nationality, politics, racial and other mental imposes limitations. We can see things differently, because at the end, we humans have the same expectations of life. And that is to be treated respectful, peaceful and equal (this may sound for some people as a hippie thing) but i ask you in all seriousness, if you are with the people you like and love, don't they treat you like this? So people have started to realize if we don't do anything about these problems outside our personal sphere. i.e. politics, economics, government, corporations, our own morals, and values which have been corrupted for a very long time, We will never attain what we are looking for i.e. happiness, joy, equality, fairness respect. As i see it now corruption, inequality, unfairness has invade everyone`s life because we have not been able to understand that if the world is corrupt so are we. Because if you objectively look at the world as a whole then there is no other conclusion than that we live in a system which is based on, greed, backstabbing, lies, and conflict. Besides from a strategic point of view (that is if the protesters want to succeed) they can't have clear demands because if they would then other people wouldn't join in the protest, i.e. unions. different ages, different social backgrounds etc. and it would fail. (it would exclude other people as they wouldn't feel related to it). e.g. if you say I`m fighting inequality more people will join then if you would formulated it specific, such as i want that African american people have more rights and that their rights are protected properly. (you see how specifying demands will exclude masses)? So having a very broad demand/complain means people of all different kind of trades will be drawn to it because they will want to give input in what has to be changed. And i think you can expect in the coming weeks that the demands will become more clear as more people will join and as more people will agree on what really are the problems. (i`m not implying i know the problems, its just the way i give name to things.) I have been at the protest. I had to squeeze by to get to work. There is no intelligence at this protest. There are people with a wide range of slogans, some calling for increases in the minimum wage, others complaining about rich Wall street elite. None of them have any understanding of what is going on in the economy and in politics. They recognize that there is a problem, but they don't understand the causality, and therefore have no way to recognize a solution. The fact that they choose to be loud instead of getting educated on the issues at hand is an insult to those of us who understand the processes necessary to effect change. I don't follow this line of thought. The inability to articulate the problem (or it's solution) doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Is it really too much to hope that politicians will hear the protests, do their job, and come up with solutions?
People generally should make an effort to understand things though, even at the basic level. Can they really not unify around one area of improvement, even if its a bit vague? Why not demand government accountability and transparency around the area of corporate lobbying?
The thing is...the whole thing appears kind of childish. This is something that is obviously complicated and has a lot of different factors that play into it...just protesting to say "fix capitalism guys!" is kind of insulting. These are systemic problems and they aren't going to be fixed because a bunch of youth and radicals decide to get together.
I mean you have a point...its important that people protest to bring awareness to the problem. But at the same time, they protesters have some responsibility to make *some* effort towards understanding these things.
The fact that they all go to protest, and publicly announce that they don't know what they're protesting and they might agree on it later, is kind of ridiculous.
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I'm conflicted about this movement myself.
I recognize that there are issues in this country that must be solved and adressed.
Yet on the other hand, when I see people calling themselves the 99% because they got a BA in theatre, work at Starbucks and can't pay their loans, I cannot feel any sympathy. In my eyes this is a self made situation. Your poor life decisions are not the governments or corporations fault.
Furthermore, I and most people writing here benefit directly from these corporations, hell they are the ones that pay me and provide me my comfortable lifestyle. They are also the ones providing a lot of the sponsorship for what we all enjoy.
I find it hypocritical to put the blame on them while I, and many others are direct benefactors of their actions. There are those who are misfortunate, but the corporations/government are not the sole cause of this.
So as much as I want to support this movement, there are too many other factors that make me hesitant and seeing post after post of "my job is shitty i have no savings and 3 kids i am 99%" and the like makes me hesitate more, as nobody asked you to have 3 kids on a shitty income with no savings.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2011 06:13 scaban84 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 05:54 Saji wrote:On October 07 2011 04:23 scaban84 wrote:On October 07 2011 04:00 Saji wrote:On October 07 2011 02:30 thane wrote:On October 07 2011 02:25 scaban84 wrote:On October 07 2011 02:13 thane wrote:
Someone correct me if Im wrong but from the information I collected this is just about people who have lots of money right? I think its more prudent to go after politicians getting paid by special interest groups and companies to support bad economic policies. Please feel free to set me straight if I am wrong I don't know very much about this movement. Nobody really knows much about the protest. I wouldn't call it a movement, because there is no message or demand. It is just a confluence of students, and union workers, etc. looking for an excuse to protest and seemingly to demand more entitlements. Students want jobs, and union workers demand more entitlements... two demands entirely in conflict btw. The irony is that many of these people voted for Obama who is in the pocket of Goldman Sachs. You wouldn't see them protesting Obama however, otherwise they would be accused of being tea-partiers and subsequently lynched. Ok that makes sense I keep getting conflicting information say its about A or B etc. I really do wish that people would wake up and get ride of politicians being "in someones pocket" to steal your phrase. It would make more sense to get rid of the greed and bad economic planning than to just cry about the current situation. This is straight from the wiki page"The participants of the event are mainly protesting against social and economic inequality, corporate greed, and the influence of corporate money and lobbyists on government, among other concerns." I know Wiki is not the best but maybe its better than nothing. Hi, Can you really say there is no motive? the general sentiment i read/feel is that people are fed up with inequality, unfairness and corruption. These subjects in themselves are very complicated specially because everyone experience them differently but at the end they all are the same. That is why for most people (i.e. on this thread) trying to understand want is happening there and not being physically present at the protest. The demands seem incoherent for a lot of people because of the variety of demands and complains. But if you look at them without your own judgement and you understand what the most basic expectations of people are, that is; transcending the way you think, for example not thinking in mental frameworks such as nationality, politics, racial and other mental imposes limitations. We can see things differently, because at the end, we humans have the same expectations of life. And that is to be treated respectful, peaceful and equal (this may sound for some people as a hippie thing) but i ask you in all seriousness, if you are with the people you like and love, don't they treat you like this? So people have started to realize if we don't do anything about these problems outside our personal sphere. i.e. politics, economics, government, corporations, our own morals, and values which have been corrupted for a very long time, We will never attain what we are looking for i.e. happiness, joy, equality, fairness respect. As i see it now corruption, inequality, unfairness has invade everyone`s life because we have not been able to understand that if the world is corrupt so are we. Because if you objectively look at the world as a whole then there is no other conclusion than that we live in a system which is based on, greed, backstabbing, lies, and conflict. Besides from a strategic point of view (that is if the protesters want to succeed) they can't have clear demands because if they would then other people wouldn't join in the protest, i.e. unions. different ages, different social backgrounds etc. and it would fail. (it would exclude other people as they wouldn't feel related to it). e.g. if you say I`m fighting inequality more people will join then if you would formulated it specific, such as i want that African american people have more rights and that their rights are protected properly. (you see how specifying demands will exclude masses)? So having a very broad demand/complain means people of all different kind of trades will be drawn to it because they will want to give input in what has to be changed. And i think you can expect in the coming weeks that the demands will become more clear as more people will join and as more people will agree on what really are the problems. (i`m not implying i know the problems, its just the way i give name to things.) I have been at the protest. I had to squeeze by to get to work. There is no intelligence at this protest. There are people with a wide range of slogans, some calling for increases in the minimum wage, others complaining about rich Wall street elite. None of them have any understanding of what is going on in the economy and in politics. They recognize that there is a problem, but they don't understand the causality, and therefore have no way to recognize a solution. The fact that they choose to be loud instead of getting educated on the issues at hand is an insult to those of us who understand the processes necessary to effect change. Hi I disagree on the part that you say there is no intelligence in this protest. I disagree because i have watched the life stream (http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution) and i have seen people talk intelligent about topics/demands/problems. I do not however say that the protest in its entirety is intelligent (intelligent is a abstract term so we are probably not talking about the same thing) of course there are parts of it which aren`t but there are part of which are. And if you already made up in your mind that its useless you well never find the usefulness of it. What I`m actually trying to say is you/we can't really make a judgement based on our own experience solely, because this kind of thinking will always be limited to what we perceive/know and we know so little in general. Also i`m asking you this quiet frank, since you assume the position that you do know what is the problem. could you explain what the problem is, and when you explain are you explaining this according to your view or according to how it is? Again i`m asking this frankly, i hope i can get an hones answer peace
scaban84
[quote]The problems are many. If you want my honest answer I need a specific question. These protesters are basically describing the symptoms, some of them recognize the problems, but these problems need to be addressed individually. I can't prescribe one blanket answer for all of this country's problems.
Are the problems many? or are they coming from 1 source?
Have you truly investigated the problem? And if so have you done this from your perspective alone; meaning that, you have a subjective view on what the problem is
What I have observe is that all these problems come from money, i could explain why but i don't know if you want to know
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From some people relativly involved, who don't speak for everyone, I heard, that one thing why there aren't clearly spoken demands is the thing, that people don't ask and don't demand the government (or politicians) to change things, because politicians are part of the problem, not the solution. Because of this, they don't ask the politicians to change the very thing that dictates modern politics. The thing is, all of them shall fuck right off, and politicians should not represent themselves like their the saviors, because they are _one_ of the very reasons everything's fucked.
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On October 07 2011 07:06 Saji wrote:
Are the problems many? or are they coming from 1 source?
Have you truly investigated the problem? And if so have you done this from your perspective alone; meaning that, you have a subjective view on what the problem is
What I have observe is that all these problems come from money, i could explain why but i don't know if you want to know
Yes the problems are many. I have truly investigated the problem. I went to college for American History. And I had to suffer through labor history classes taught by many a marxist professor. So I have listened to the other side. I pursued a career in the financial markets, and understanding these problems are a big part of my job. That is another perspective. I also read on Austrian economic theory (Von Mises and Hayek) and the business cycle. Current economic and societal problems in the US are broken down by a brilliant author named Thomas Sowell. Read his book Vision of the Anointed if you want to understand why welfare and safety nets do not work.
If you think all the problems have to do with money, I am interested in hearing what you have to say.
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I believe this may be significant:
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and cause me to tremble for safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic destroyed."
- President Abraham Lincoln, 1864.
Don't say no-one ever warned you.
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On October 07 2011 07:27 Iskusstvo wrote:
I believe this may be significant:
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and cause me to tremble for safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic destroyed."
- President Abraham Lincoln, 1864.
Don't say no-one ever warned you.
This is an often quoted and seldom understood quote by a very important Republican. Lincoln cautions against giving a Central bank (the Money Power) power to control the nation's currency. He says "corporations have ben enthroned", not "all corporations are evil and will destroy us." He certainly doesn't say Capitalism is evil and leads to corruption, even though many left-wingers would have you believe this. He actually protested government control of the monetary system by opposing the National Bank Act, many people speculate that this was the motive behind his assassination.
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On October 07 2011 07:22 scaban84 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 07:06 Saji wrote:
Are the problems many? or are they coming from 1 source?
Have you truly investigated the problem? And if so have you done this from your perspective alone; meaning that, you have a subjective view on what the problem is
What I have observe is that all these problems come from money, i could explain why but i don't know if you want to know
Yes the problems are many. I have truly investigated the problem. I went to college for American History. And I had to suffer through labor history classes taught by many a marxist professor. So I have listened to the other side. I pursued a career in the financial markets, and understanding these problems are a big part of my job. That is another perspective. I also read on Austrian economic theory (Von Mises and Hayek) and the business cycle. Current economic and societal problems in the US are broken down by a brilliant author named Thomas Sowell. Read his book Vision of the Anointed if you want to understand why welfare and safety nets do not work. If you think all the problems have to do with money, I am interested in hearing what you have to say.
Thank you, i will look up that name.
My basic premise for why Money is the problem at least as far as i can see it is this.
We have a limited amount of resources (fact) we either live with each other or kill each other to use these resources (current situation)
1 aspect of money(capital)
Money itself is an idea, an Idea created by our minds. This idea that is money is used to control resources. To live we need resources, so if we control resources we control people.
2 aspect of money (capital)
Money breeds corruption, why? because we can buy morals and ethics with money, we can buy people opinions with money, we can control human thought with money, we can enslave people with money. We however cannot become free with money because it always seeks control, as it is the purpose of money, the idea we created. and in freedom there is no control
and i`m not saying that freedom is a childish notion of that one can do absolutely nothing, no if we are free we act responsible because we have to in order to survive, if we are controlled we however do not act responsible because do not need to in order to survive, someone else will control that.
3 aspect of money (capital)
Money by default is inefficient, money wants more money (fact), at the same time we have concocted to think we can manage resources economically (that is to use scares resources as efficient as possible) with money. But in reality we can't because we use a tool (money) which in itself is inefficient.
If we take for example any system that has money in it we can clearly see the red thread of inefficiency throughout history. i.e. waste of resources, waste of human lives.
Example about how money is completely useless in being efficient and does the absolute opposite
For example if we humans can come up with a car that would only need 1 cup of water to drive for 1 year, this would be disastrous for the car industry because we could not make profit out of it. (profit is nothing else then the money earned through inefficient) so there is absolutely no incentive in current day thinking to actually build something efficient. as money governs our lives.
Same goes with for example a washing machine, why do we need x amount of different types of washing machines instead of 1 type which is the most efficient we can build at this day and age?
We need different types because otherwise we can't make profit out of it. This however is not efficient use of resources because we spend actual resources in producing inefficient products.
The urge for money and thus profit is the urge to make things as inefficient as possible.
In contemporary times like these were money is everything we simply do not want to have products with longevity, because again this makes us not earn profit.
I just chose one aspect of how money affects our lives in this case i did it with products, but this is applicable to every fact in our lives because money is part of our live, mentally, physically, socially, morally, ethically, etc...
If we do not investigate the idea of money and determine if it really is useful or not, we can try and change so much but if we do not change the way we see money, the idea of it. Then all we change is for nothing.
Hope i`m being clear
Peace
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On October 07 2011 06:57 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 04:35 Logo wrote:On October 07 2011 04:23 scaban84 wrote:On October 07 2011 04:00 Saji wrote:On October 07 2011 02:30 thane wrote:On October 07 2011 02:25 scaban84 wrote:On October 07 2011 02:13 thane wrote:
Someone correct me if Im wrong but from the information I collected this is just about people who have lots of money right? I think its more prudent to go after politicians getting paid by special interest groups and companies to support bad economic policies. Please feel free to set me straight if I am wrong I don't know very much about this movement. Nobody really knows much about the protest. I wouldn't call it a movement, because there is no message or demand. It is just a confluence of students, and union workers, etc. looking for an excuse to protest and seemingly to demand more entitlements. Students want jobs, and union workers demand more entitlements... two demands entirely in conflict btw. The irony is that many of these people voted for Obama who is in the pocket of Goldman Sachs. You wouldn't see them protesting Obama however, otherwise they would be accused of being tea-partiers and subsequently lynched. Ok that makes sense I keep getting conflicting information say its about A or B etc. I really do wish that people would wake up and get ride of politicians being "in someones pocket" to steal your phrase. It would make more sense to get rid of the greed and bad economic planning than to just cry about the current situation. This is straight from the wiki page"The participants of the event are mainly protesting against social and economic inequality, corporate greed, and the influence of corporate money and lobbyists on government, among other concerns." I know Wiki is not the best but maybe its better than nothing. Hi, Can you really say there is no motive? the general sentiment i read/feel is that people are fed up with inequality, unfairness and corruption. These subjects in themselves are very complicated specially because everyone experience them differently but at the end they all are the same. That is why for most people (i.e. on this thread) trying to understand want is happening there and not being physically present at the protest. The demands seem incoherent for a lot of people because of the variety of demands and complains. But if you look at them without your own judgement and you understand what the most basic expectations of people are, that is; transcending the way you think, for example not thinking in mental frameworks such as nationality, politics, racial and other mental imposes limitations. We can see things differently, because at the end, we humans have the same expectations of life. And that is to be treated respectful, peaceful and equal (this may sound for some people as a hippie thing) but i ask you in all seriousness, if you are with the people you like and love, don't they treat you like this? So people have started to realize if we don't do anything about these problems outside our personal sphere. i.e. politics, economics, government, corporations, our own morals, and values which have been corrupted for a very long time, We will never attain what we are looking for i.e. happiness, joy, equality, fairness respect. As i see it now corruption, inequality, unfairness has invade everyone`s life because we have not been able to understand that if the world is corrupt so are we. Because if you objectively look at the world as a whole then there is no other conclusion than that we live in a system which is based on, greed, backstabbing, lies, and conflict. Besides from a strategic point of view (that is if the protesters want to succeed) they can't have clear demands because if they would then other people wouldn't join in the protest, i.e. unions. different ages, different social backgrounds etc. and it would fail. (it would exclude other people as they wouldn't feel related to it). e.g. if you say I`m fighting inequality more people will join then if you would formulated it specific, such as i want that African american people have more rights and that their rights are protected properly. (you see how specifying demands will exclude masses)? So having a very broad demand/complain means people of all different kind of trades will be drawn to it because they will want to give input in what has to be changed. And i think you can expect in the coming weeks that the demands will become more clear as more people will join and as more people will agree on what really are the problems. (i`m not implying i know the problems, its just the way i give name to things.) I have been at the protest. I had to squeeze by to get to work. There is no intelligence at this protest. There are people with a wide range of slogans, some calling for increases in the minimum wage, others complaining about rich Wall street elite. None of them have any understanding of what is going on in the economy and in politics. They recognize that there is a problem, but they don't understand the causality, and therefore have no way to recognize a solution. The fact that they choose to be loud instead of getting educated on the issues at hand is an insult to those of us who understand the processes necessary to effect change. I don't follow this line of thought. The inability to articulate the problem (or it's solution) doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Is it really too much to hope that politicians will hear the protests, do their job, and come up with solutions? People generally should make an effort to understand things though, even at the basic level. Can they really not unify around one area of improvement, even if its a bit vague? Why not demand government accountability and transparency around the area of corporate lobbying? The thing is...the whole thing appears kind of childish. This is something that is obviously complicated and has a lot of different factors that play into it...just protesting to say "fix capitalism guys!" is kind of insulting. These are systemic problems and they aren't going to be fixed because a bunch of youth and radicals decide to get together. I mean you have a point...its important that people protest to bring awareness to the problem. But at the same time, they protesters have some responsibility to make *some* effort towards understanding these things. The fact that they all go to protest, and publicly announce that they don't know what they're protesting and they might agree on it later, is kind of ridiculous.
Yeah, I agree with you as well that it'd be nice to have a movement with a stronger message and what not.
But.... put it like this, would this thread with this discussion have existed without the movement? Would people have the golden opportunity to instill wisdom and ideologies on the protesters (and those watching them)? Aren't the protests ripe for someone to come out with a good platform and win the sway of the people and direct them towards change?
Sure I'd really like if the protesters made more effort to know more on the issues and ideally suppress their more radical views, very much like my thoughts on the Tea Party, but I'm glad to have an imperfect protest vs no protest at all.
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On October 07 2011 Saji wrote:
We have a limited amount of resources (fact) we either live with each other or kill each other to use these resources (current situation)
Money allows us to trade resources. A barter system is simply inefficient because our need for resources always changes.
1 aspect of money(capital)
Money itself is an idea, an Idea created by our minds. This idea that is money is used to control resources. To live we need resources, so if we control resources we control people.
How can resources be traded if they weren't at some point controlled by someone?
2 aspect of money (capital)
Money breeds corruption, why? because we can buy morals and ethics with money, we can buy people opinions with money, we can control human thought with money, we can enslave people with money. We however cannot become free with money because it always seeks control, as it is the purpose of money, the idea we created. and in freedom there is no control
How can we buy morals and ethics with money? Money is simply a vehicle to trade. I don't understand how that can control us.
3 aspect of money (capital)
Money by default is inefficient, money wants more money (fact), at the same time we have concocted to think we can manage resources economically (that is to use scares resources as efficient as possible) with money. But in reality we can't because we use a tool (money) which in itself is inefficient.
How does money want more money? How does a unit of currency have desires and why does that prove that money is inefficient for its stated purpose: to facilitate the transfer of goods and services?
For example if we humans can come up with a car that would only need 1 cup of water to drive for 1 year, this would be disastrous for the car industry because we could not make profit out of it. (profit is nothing else then the money earned through inefficient) so there is absolutely no incentive in current day thinking to actually build something efficient. as money governs our lives.
How would cheap fuel be disastrous for the car industry?I would think it would be a boon the car companies because fuel is 1 less cost the consumer has to worry about. That means more car sales and higher revenue. The company that invents that technology would be in a great position, and other companies would have to adopt that technology to compete.
Same goes with for example a washing machine, why do we need x amount of different types of washing machines instead of 1 type which is the most efficient we can build at this day and age?
Because not everyone needs the same size washing machine. Some are more 'efficient', as in, they use less energy and water. But some consumers demand a more thorough wash. Some companies offer different warranties and service plans. The competition to make the best washer for the cheapest price is where we get efficiency. Choosing one washing machine for everyone only benefits the manufacturer of that machine, and not the consumer.
We need different types because otherwise we can't make profit out of it. This however is not efficient use of resources because we spend actual resources in producing inefficient products.
The urge for money and thus profit is the urge to make things as inefficient as possible.
This logic doesn't pan out. Profit comes from efficiency. Inefficient companies making inefficient products and wasting resources does not results in profits for that company. Its quite the opposite.
In contemporary times like these were money is everything we simply do not want to have products with longevity, because again this makes us not earn profit.
I just chose one aspect of how money affects our lives in this case i did it with products, but this is applicable to every fact in our lives because money is part of our live, mentally, physically, socially, morally, ethically, etc...
If we do not investigate the idea of money and determine if it really is useful or not, we can try and change so much but if we do not change the way we see money, the idea of it. Then all we change is for nothing.
Hope i`m being clear
Peace
I don't agree. Money is absolutely efficient. And the pursuit of profit is absolutely necessary for the efficient use of resources.
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On October 07 2011 07:47 Saji wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 07:22 scaban84 wrote:On October 07 2011 07:06 Saji wrote:
Are the problems many? or are they coming from 1 source?
Have you truly investigated the problem? And if so have you done this from your perspective alone; meaning that, you have a subjective view on what the problem is
What I have observe is that all these problems come from money, i could explain why but i don't know if you want to know
Yes the problems are many. I have truly investigated the problem. I went to college for American History. And I had to suffer through labor history classes taught by many a marxist professor. So I have listened to the other side. I pursued a career in the financial markets, and understanding these problems are a big part of my job. That is another perspective. I also read on Austrian economic theory (Von Mises and Hayek) and the business cycle. Current economic and societal problems in the US are broken down by a brilliant author named Thomas Sowell. Read his book Vision of the Anointed if you want to understand why welfare and safety nets do not work. If you think all the problems have to do with money, I am interested in hearing what you have to say. Thank you, i will look up that name. My basic premise for why Money is the problem at least as far as i can see it is this. We have a limited amount of resources (fact) we either live with each other or kill each other to use these resources (current situation) 1 aspect of money(capital) Money itself is an idea, an Idea created by our minds. This idea that is money is used to control resources. To live we need resources, so if we control resources we control people. 2 aspect of money (capital) Money breeds corruption, why? because we can buy morals and ethics with money, we can buy people opinions with money, we can control human thought with money, we can enslave people with money. We however cannot become free with money because it always seeks control, as it is the purpose of money, the idea we created. and in freedom there is no control Show nested quote +and i`m not saying that freedom is a childish notion of that one can do absolutely nothing, no if we are free we act responsible because we have to in order to survive, if we are controlled we however do not act responsible because do not need to in order to survive, someone else will control that. 3 aspect of money (capital) Money by default is inefficient, money wants more money (fact), at the same time we have concocted to think we can manage resources economically (that is to use scares resources as efficient as possible) with money. But in reality we can't because we use a tool (money) which in itself is inefficient. If we take for example any system that has money in it we can clearly see the red thread of inefficiency throughout history. i.e. waste of resources, waste of human lives. Example about how money is completely useless in being efficient and does the absolute opposite For example if we humans can come up with a car that would only need 1 cup of water to drive for 1 year, this would be disastrous for the car industry because we could not make profit out of it. (profit is nothing else then the money earned through inefficient) so there is absolutely no incentive in current day thinking to actually build something efficient. as money governs our lives. Same goes with for example a washing machine, why do we need x amount of different types of washing machines instead of 1 type which is the most efficient we can build at this day and age? We need different types because otherwise we can't make profit out of it. This however is not efficient use of resources because we spend actual resources in producing inefficient products. The urge for money and thus profit is the urge to make things as inefficient as possible. In contemporary times like these were money is everything we simply do not want to have products with longevity, because again this makes us not earn profit. I just chose one aspect of how money affects our lives in this case i did it with products, but this is applicable to every fact in our lives because money is part of our live, mentally, physically, socially, morally, ethically, etc... If we do not investigate the idea of money and determine if it really is useful or not, we can try and change so much but if we do not change the way we see money, the idea of it. Then all we change is for nothing. Hope i`m being clear Peace
Sorry mate, you are not being clear. Your 3 aspects of money seem like long stretches in logic and I cannot see any alternatives to money being hinted to at all. At the same time, making "money" into a philosofical debate, doesn't make sence without a clearer definition of its primary uses and a better underlying theory of what needs it fills.
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@ scaban84
the root of the problem is wealth disparity between poor and rich, no?
there has always been class warfare to a degree, and it has always led to revolutions in the past
the creation of the middle class allowed the tensions of long ago to relax for a while, since poor people saw a way out of misery through education and many could afford a very nice standard of living
middle class is being demolished right now in the western world, see various wealth comparison indexes for confirmation
thus people will get angry
its a pretty safe bet that if rich people dont recognize this and dont get a wealth redistribution plan into action fast, there will be trouble
and to make trouble, u dont need to understand the specifics of the economic or the political situation, u need only a few likeminded people and guns, both of which are in abundance already
beware of belittling such people, times are (seemingly) changing
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On October 07 2011 09:32 Taguchi wrote:
@ scaban84
the root of the problem is wealth disparity between poor and rich, no?
there has always been class warfare to a degree, and it has always led to revolutions in the past
the creation of the middle class allowed the tensions of long ago to relax for a while, since poor people saw a way out of misery through education and many could afford a very nice standard of living
middle class is being demolished right now in the western world, see various wealth comparison indexes for confirmation
thus people will get angry
its a pretty safe bet that if rich people dont recognize this and dont get a wealth redistribution plan into action fast, there will be trouble
and to make trouble, u dont need to understand the specifics of the economic or the political situation, u need only a few likeminded people and guns, both of which are in abundance already
beware of belittling such people, times are (seemingly) changing
Thats quite a combative attitude. Be careful that some would-be politician would want to steer your misdirected hatred towards the rich.
The middle class is under attack, but I wouldn't say it is being demolished. It is under attack from both sides: the elite government politicians who tax the living hell out of them and squash economic mobility, and their low-class enabler who beg them to re-distribute that which isn't theirs.
Anger unleashed doesn't necessarily lead to equity. I would prefer to see people understand the issues at hand and act with sound reason. Its quite ironic that it is called a revolution, because when you revolve once you end up exactly where you were.
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On October 07 2011 07:22 scaban84 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 07:06 Saji wrote:
Are the problems many? or are they coming from 1 source?
Have you truly investigated the problem? And if so have you done this from your perspective alone; meaning that, you have a subjective view on what the problem is
What I have observe is that all these problems come from money, i could explain why but i don't know if you want to know
Yes the problems are many. I have truly investigated the problem. I went to college for American History. And I had to suffer through labor history classes taught by many a marxist professor. So I have listened to the other side. I pursued a career in the financial markets, and understanding these problems are a big part of my job. That is another perspective. I also read on Austrian economic theory (Von Mises and Hayek) and the business cycle. Current economic and societal problems in the US are broken down by a brilliant author named Thomas Sowell. Read his book Vision of the Anointed if you want to understand why welfare and safety nets do not work. If you think all the problems have to do with money, I am interested in hearing what you have to say.
You are clearly a very opinionated libertarian. Stating professors as marxist and claiming to have listened seem to be rather coloured. Some might say that you might have a personal distrust of them.
You have read some books on economy, but all of the mentioned are extremely selective towards neoclassical economic theory and libertarianism and generally with a very critical opinion on socialism. I think you could gain something by opening up and actually try to understand what Keynes, Woodford and Krugman among others think. However you need a more open attitude to get anything out of it imo.
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EPT
