"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."
After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.
You risk hurting bodies when you pick them up, but when someone curls up in a ball because they don't want to be sprayed in the fucking face for SITTING ON THE FUCKING GROUND, it warrants BATON STRIKES. How ludicrous is that?
It's illegal to block roads and sidewalks. If the protesters did not did not move after a verbal command non-lethal force can be used.
There was no reason for use of violence in that situation, though. The protesters weren't resisting arrest. The police could have gone in and handcuffed each one (like they usually do) without resorting to any violence whatsoever.
Except the Police aren't really in the mood. My guess is after dealing with this for awhile, some of the officers are just starting to snap.
If they're starting to snap, they should be removed from duty and disciplined. In fact, it's not only that they should be, but they must be.
On November 21 2011 05:34 Voltaire wrote: There was no reason for use of violence in that situation, though. The protesters weren't resisting arrest. The police could have gone in and handcuffed each one (like they usually do) without resorting to any violence whatsoever.
I might have to double check this. I think in one of the videos a police officer tried to break them up and arrest them, but since they were interlocking arms, the police couldn't separate them.
I do agree that the use of pepper spray wasn't necessary, however it looks quite intimidating when a bunch of students surround the cops that close even though they're just recording it on phones, ipads, or shouting.
Although it's sad to see them getting hit by pepper spray, I have to give them props for taking it. In one of the aftermath videos, some people that were hit were keeping their eyes shut, which is the last thing you want to do. If you are hit with pepper spray in the eyes, you would want to blink furiously to create tears to wash away the chemicals, not keep them in your eyes. Using external source of water does barely nothing to rinse it away.
On November 21 2011 05:43 DigiGnar wrote: I didn't even see a police car in any of the videos I have seen. And I did see students getting to and from class, so I'm sure they were using the sidewalk. That's actually something you do see in the videos.
"Oh no, I can't use the sidewalk at this specific location. POLICE! BEAT THEM DOWN, NOW!" Remember, it's a courtyard that can hold up 50,000 people. People are still able to go places. The students have the right to assembly. When you assemble in large numbers, there's going to be a lot of people. That might be like 15% of the space taken up. Less than that, actually.
You also do know that the officers who did spray the students have been place on administrative leave? If they were placed on leave, the must've done something they weren't supposed to. UH OH, they sprayed a bunch of sitting students in the fucking face for sitting there. THE CHANCELLOR MADE AN APOLOGY ON BEHALF OF THOSE STUDENTS. EVEN THE UNIVERSITY REALIZES WHAT HAPPENED WAS WRONG.
"I am deeply saddened that this happened on our campus, and as chancellor, I take full responsibility for the incident," Katehi said in a statement Sunday. "However, I pledge to take the actions needed to ensure that this does not happen again. I feel very sorry for the harm our students were subjected to and I vow to work tirelessly to make the campus a more welcoming and safe place."
@1:10
it doesn't matter how big the area is a law is a law.
"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."
After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.
You risk hurting bodies when you pick them up, but when someone curls up in a ball because they don't want to be sprayed in the fucking face for SITTING ON THE FUCKING GROUND, it warrants BATON STRIKES. How ludicrous is that?
It's illegal to block roads and sidewalks. If the protesters did not did not move after a verbal command non-lethal force can be used.
There was no reason for use of violence in that situation, though. The protesters weren't resisting arrest. The police could have gone in and handcuffed each one (like they usually do) without resorting to any violence whatsoever.
Except the Police aren't really in the mood. My guess is after dealing with this for awhile, some of the officers are just starting to snap.
If they're starting to snap, they should be removed from duty and disciplined. In fact, it's not only that they should be, but they must be.
Police is not meant to be snappy and moody.
Yep agreed this kind of situation provides a great stress test to weed out the undisciplined officers so they can be replaced by people who can handle the stress.
Well, two of the officers are now suspended on administrative leave. I think the police should of done more to separate them and arrest them, but it only seemed like they tried separating them once or twice in the video.
On November 21 2011 02:35 seppolevne wrote: A bunch of narcissists? I'm pretty sure it's a group of people that have realised that your country is a fucking hellhole and want to change it for the better, to make everyone a little better off. That sounds like the opposite of narcissism, actually.
edit: Are you fucking serious? "characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance" is pretty much exactly why all these people are fucked, and THEY are the narcissists? What the fuck goes on in your brain?
A fucking hellhole? What?
They do not want to change it for the better more than they want to change it for themselves. That sounds like a bunch of narcissists to me.
The OWS movement allows a lot of self-centered people to go complain about what they want to be changed. There are people that want marijuana to be legalized and are protesting that law, there are people who want student loans to be changed in some way that benefits them, and then you got people who are just protesting capitalism. There are people that want to change things for the greater good, but they are the minority.
OWS needs to get their shit together, or stop protesting and go home.
Are you actually involved in this in any way or have you actually been on site, or does your information come from fox news?
On November 21 2011 02:35 seppolevne wrote: A bunch of narcissists? I'm pretty sure it's a group of people that have realised that your country is a fucking hellhole and want to change it for the better, to make everyone a little better off. That sounds like the opposite of narcissism, actually.
edit: Are you fucking serious? "characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance" is pretty much exactly why all these people are fucked, and THEY are the narcissists? What the fuck goes on in your brain?
A fucking hellhole? What?
They do not want to change it for the better more than they want to change it for themselves. That sounds like a bunch of narcissists to me.
The OWS movement allows a lot of self-centered people to go complain about what they want to be changed. There are people that want marijuana to be legalized and are protesting that law, there are people who want student loans to be changed in some way that benefits them, and then you got people who are just protesting capitalism. There are people that want to change things for the greater good, but they are the minority.
OWS needs to get their shit together, or stop protesting and go home.
Are you actually involved in this in any way or have you actually been on site, or does your information come from fox news?
Because you're totally wrong.
Are you actually involved in this in any way or have you actually been on site, or does your information come from The New York Times?
On November 21 2011 02:35 seppolevne wrote: A bunch of narcissists? I'm pretty sure it's a group of people that have realised that your country is a fucking hellhole and want to change it for the better, to make everyone a little better off. That sounds like the opposite of narcissism, actually.
edit: Are you fucking serious? "characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance" is pretty much exactly why all these people are fucked, and THEY are the narcissists? What the fuck goes on in your brain?
A fucking hellhole? What?
They do not want to change it for the better more than they want to change it for themselves. That sounds like a bunch of narcissists to me.
The OWS movement allows a lot of self-centered people to go complain about what they want to be changed. There are people that want marijuana to be legalized and are protesting that law, there are people who want student loans to be changed in some way that benefits them, and then you got people who are just protesting capitalism. There are people that want to change things for the greater good, but they are the minority.
OWS needs to get their shit together, or stop protesting and go home.
Are you actually involved in this in any way or have you actually been on site, or does your information come from fox news?
Because you're totally wrong.
Are you actually involved in this in any way or have you actually been on site, or does your information come from The New York Times?
I love how the police tried to say, oh we were scared of these kids making a circle around us, when you celarly see the guy step over them and pepper spray them all in the face, seriously...
On November 21 2011 02:35 seppolevne wrote: A bunch of narcissists? I'm pretty sure it's a group of people that have realised that your country is a fucking hellhole and want to change it for the better, to make everyone a little better off. That sounds like the opposite of narcissism, actually.
edit: Are you fucking serious? "characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance" is pretty much exactly why all these people are fucked, and THEY are the narcissists? What the fuck goes on in your brain?
A fucking hellhole? What?
They do not want to change it for the better more than they want to change it for themselves. That sounds like a bunch of narcissists to me.
The OWS movement allows a lot of self-centered people to go complain about what they want to be changed. There are people that want marijuana to be legalized and are protesting that law, there are people who want student loans to be changed in some way that benefits them, and then you got people who are just protesting capitalism. There are people that want to change things for the greater good, but they are the minority.
OWS needs to get their shit together, or stop protesting and go home.
They are people who want lobbying out of government. Which accounts for most of the stupid laws corruption in your country.
Not going to happen anytime soon. The reason private sector lobbying exists is so that company A doesn't get completely railed by regulations + red tape. Frankly I'm not that disgusted by it, but if there was a donation cap on campaign funds I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Well I would say that lobbyists are a very diverse group. Some are working for NGOs like WWF, Green Peace, Red Cross, Amnesty International and a million other "less profit focused companies". They generally disregard companies when commenting on laws. Then we have - especially in Europe - The Unions. Sector Unions including unions for sawmills, for building-industry, for coal-fired plants and so on. They represent a segment of business and have to ensure that their line of work will not get screwed over. The last category is the exception to the rule of "lobbysts exist so someone doesn't get screwed". Large private companies can go rogue and undercut their segment. It has happened some times in Denmark with companies holding patents for clean solutions or otherwise market segments that they can use politically, where they side with the NGOs and ensure very strict environmental demands. Listening to only one segment can get absurd laws passed: That a tenth or so of a tomato counts as a vegetable (US, to make cheaper pizza a possible dinner in schools in the US against health advise - was voted down so you still need half of a tomato to count a vegetable which still makes pizzas very easy to make possible within the guidelines - screwing a lot of other food in the cafeteria) and that cucumbers cannot bend more than 20 % (European Union, trade-restriction to decrease the amount of cucumbers on the market and giving an advantage to factory farms in southern europe - in the 1990's).
On November 21 2011 05:43 DigiGnar wrote: I didn't even see a police car in any of the videos I have seen. And I did see students getting to and from class, so I'm sure they were using the sidewalk. That's actually something you do see in the videos.
"Oh no, I can't use the sidewalk at this specific location. POLICE! BEAT THEM DOWN, NOW!" Remember, it's a courtyard that can hold up 50,000 people. People are still able to go places. The students have the right to assembly. When you assemble in large numbers, there's going to be a lot of people. That might be like 15% of the space taken up. Less than that, actually.
You also do know that the officers who did spray the students have been place on administrative leave? If they were placed on leave, the must've done something they weren't supposed to. UH OH, they sprayed a bunch of sitting students in the fucking face for sitting there. THE CHANCELLOR MADE AN APOLOGY ON BEHALF OF THOSE STUDENTS. EVEN THE UNIVERSITY REALIZES WHAT HAPPENED WAS WRONG.
"I am deeply saddened that this happened on our campus, and as chancellor, I take full responsibility for the incident," Katehi said in a statement Sunday. "However, I pledge to take the actions needed to ensure that this does not happen again. I feel very sorry for the harm our students were subjected to and I vow to work tirelessly to make the campus a more welcoming and safe place."
it doesn't matter how big the area is a law is a law.
I sincerely hope that next time you jaywalk or drive five over or pull a u-turn there's a police officer there to pepper spray you in the face. Just because a citizen is breaking a law does not mean that a police officer has the right to abuse him or her in whatever way the officer sees fit. I can't imagine a circumstance under which it would be appropriate for riot police to pepper spray students sitting on a sidewalk in peaceful protest. It's fucking disgusting.
On November 21 2011 10:43 indigoawareness wrote: The New York Times is a good newspaper.
at least they label their opinion pieces and opinion and don't try to pass shit off as fact without checking, which is what ever cable news net work suffers from.
On November 21 2011 02:35 seppolevne wrote: A bunch of narcissists? I'm pretty sure it's a group of people that have realised that your country is a fucking hellhole and want to change it for the better, to make everyone a little better off. That sounds like the opposite of narcissism, actually.
edit: Are you fucking serious? "characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance" is pretty much exactly why all these people are fucked, and THEY are the narcissists? What the fuck goes on in your brain?
A fucking hellhole? What?
They do not want to change it for the better more than they want to change it for themselves. That sounds like a bunch of narcissists to me.
The OWS movement allows a lot of self-centered people to go complain about what they want to be changed. There are people that want marijuana to be legalized and are protesting that law, there are people who want student loans to be changed in some way that benefits them, and then you got people who are just protesting capitalism. There are people that want to change things for the greater good, but they are the minority.
OWS needs to get their shit together, or stop protesting and go home.
They are people who want lobbying out of government. Which accounts for most of the stupid laws corruption in your country.
Not going to happen anytime soon. The reason private sector lobbying exists is so that company A doesn't get completely railed by regulations + red tape. Frankly I'm not that disgusted by it, but if there was a donation cap on campaign funds I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Well I would say that lobbyists are a very diverse group. Some are working for NGOs like WWF, Green Peace, Red Cross, Amnesty International and a million other "less profit focused companies". They generally disregard companies when commenting on laws. Then we have - especially in Europe - The Unions. Sector Unions including unions for sawmills, for building-industry, for coal-fired plants and so on. They represent a segment of business and have to ensure that their line of work will not get screwed over. The last category is the exception to the rule of "lobbysts exist so someone doesn't get screwed". Large private companies can go rogue and undercut their segment. It has happened some times in Denmark with companies holding patents for clean solutions or otherwise market segments that they can use politically, where they side with the NGOs and ensure very strict environmental demands. Listening to only one segment can get absurd laws passed: That a tenth or so of a tomato counts as a vegetable (US, to make cheaper pizza a possible dinner in schools in the US against health advise - was voted down so you still need half of a tomato to count a vegetable which still makes pizzas very easy to make possible within the guidelines - screwing a lot of other food in the cafeteria) and that cucumbers cannot bend more than 20 % (European Union, trade-restriction to decrease the amount of cucumbers on the market and giving an advantage to factory farms in southern europe - in the 1990's).
I will admit it has its downsides and can slow down legislative processes. However, when the government becomes very involved in a highly competitive market, this is inevitably what happens. Government has to play the role of making sure the bottom of society (for whatever reasons they're there) doesn't get steamrolled by the powerful (the extent of this is always up for debate). Sometimes they become overeager, and overreach what I believe their power should be regarding private industries. That's why I believe lobbyists are necessary.
Look at the whole deepwater horizon fiasco as an example. People were hella mad and not thinking properly regarding what the problem was regarding the spill, or steps required to fix the leak. Essentially I believe that they (US Gov) could have pushed though almost anything they wanted provided their were no oil lobbyists there to make sure they didn't get completely fucked over by popular sentiment. It was pretty much in vain too, as the moratorium has put a damper on their profits and hurt other companies that had nothing to do with the spill.
On November 21 2011 05:43 DigiGnar wrote: I didn't even see a police car in any of the videos I have seen. And I did see students getting to and from class, so I'm sure they were using the sidewalk. That's actually something you do see in the videos.
"Oh no, I can't use the sidewalk at this specific location. POLICE! BEAT THEM DOWN, NOW!" Remember, it's a courtyard that can hold up 50,000 people. People are still able to go places. The students have the right to assembly. When you assemble in large numbers, there's going to be a lot of people. That might be like 15% of the space taken up. Less than that, actually.
You also do know that the officers who did spray the students have been place on administrative leave? If they were placed on leave, the must've done something they weren't supposed to. UH OH, they sprayed a bunch of sitting students in the fucking face for sitting there. THE CHANCELLOR MADE AN APOLOGY ON BEHALF OF THOSE STUDENTS. EVEN THE UNIVERSITY REALIZES WHAT HAPPENED WAS WRONG.
"I am deeply saddened that this happened on our campus, and as chancellor, I take full responsibility for the incident," Katehi said in a statement Sunday. "However, I pledge to take the actions needed to ensure that this does not happen again. I feel very sorry for the harm our students were subjected to and I vow to work tirelessly to make the campus a more welcoming and safe place."
it doesn't matter how big the area is a law is a law.
I sincerely hope that next time you jaywalk or drive five over or pull a u-turn there's a police officer there to pepper spray you in the face. Just because a citizen is breaking a law does not mean that a police officer has the right to abuse him or her in whatever way the officer sees fit. I can't imagine a circumstance under which it would be appropriate for riot police to pepper spray students sitting on a sidewalk in peaceful protest. It's fucking disgusting.
Seriously. Ungrateful, you are frankly unqualified to be an American citizen.
"I don't want to exercise my constitutional rights, so therefore nobody else should be allowed to."
The Constitution is supposed to be more than just a convenient government paper. It's not something that we turn on or turn off at will. It provides the guiding principles of our nation. And one of the highest freedoms that it guarantees is the right of the people to peaceably assemble.
I would say that should even trump the right of people to use the sidewalk.
I might agree that there should be some ability to lobby, but the question is to what extent? In particular, must the lobby system include vasts amount of money going from a few companies into the hands of politicians to run election campaigns? Lobbying, sure, but the amount of power they have currently... to me I don't see how politicians are not in the pockets of certain companies when they vote one way or the other.
Edit. And yeah @ Ungrateful and others. I don't get you can possibly see pepper spray used on seated protestors as an appropriate use of force. Clear them off, sure. Spray them in the face? It's such a disproportionate use of force.
If they were threatening to throw rock at the police, then I'd be all for the police spraying them in their foolish faces. Blocking a sidewalk is at worst mildly inconvienient and hardly a threat to anyone.
Well why should there be a professional lobby system, the right to petition your government can still be kept but on a personal level ie write to your congressmen etc. The idea that you need someone to lobby on your behalf helps people feel okay not participating in their government. The way it is now it just makes people feel like their voice doesn't matter becuase of the lobby, not that their voice is represented by the lobby. At least that's my sentiments.
On November 21 2011 02:35 seppolevne wrote: A bunch of narcissists? I'm pretty sure it's a group of people that have realised that your country is a fucking hellhole and want to change it for the better, to make everyone a little better off. That sounds like the opposite of narcissism, actually.
edit: Are you fucking serious? "characterized by a lack of empathy, a willingness to exploit others, and an inflated sense of self-importance" is pretty much exactly why all these people are fucked, and THEY are the narcissists? What the fuck goes on in your brain?
A fucking hellhole? What?
They do not want to change it for the better more than they want to change it for themselves. That sounds like a bunch of narcissists to me.
The OWS movement allows a lot of self-centered people to go complain about what they want to be changed. There are people that want marijuana to be legalized and are protesting that law, there are people who want student loans to be changed in some way that benefits them, and then you got people who are just protesting capitalism. There are people that want to change things for the greater good, but they are the minority.
OWS needs to get their shit together, or stop protesting and go home.
Are you actually involved in this in any way or have you actually been on site, or does your information come from fox news?
Because you're totally wrong.
Are you actually involved in this in any way or have you actually been on site, or does your information come from The New York Times?
Because you're totally wrong.
(See what I did there?)
I am personally involved. My point stands.
How am I totally wrong? From my point of view the protestors are shed in a bad light. Is there something that I'm not understanding? I am aware that a lot of them are against lobbying and want that to stop. To clarify, I am 100% against lobbying, but the OWS movement is mixed and mashed with every individuals opinion. And I may be wrong about this as well, but aren't they occupying parks overnight, which is illegal? I believe that the right to assemble does not cover illegal actions.
EPT
