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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 26 2011 00:53 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 00:50 DannyJ wrote:
What the hell? THey lowered the death toll? How can they think there were 20 more people dead than there really were?
Whatever, Good news! 68 instead of 86. Maybe a dyslexicperson in an important position?
That would have been the sickest misstype ever. But no, I think they said they threw out an estimate because the press were operating with only 10 and that was far to low. And they did this before they had an complete overview.
They can't run around like madman counting corpses, it's still a crimescene that needs to be conserved. But today they moved all the corpses so that made the counting alot easier.
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On July 26 2011 00:50 DannyJ wrote:
What the hell? THey lowered the death toll? How can they think there were 20 more people dead than there really were?
Whatever, Good news!
I suppose they considered some disparitions as dead by drowning in the sea.
They might needed time to check if disparitions was real or just afraid parents who called police.
Just supposing.
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On July 26 2011 00:50 DannyJ wrote:
What the hell? THey lowered the death toll? How can they think there were 20 more people dead than there really were?
Whatever, Good news!
It's because now they have finally gotten everything on computers.
Some of the bodies might have been counted several times, because they pretty much was in piles, on top of each other. The situation was quite out of control, as well as the police said that at that current situation, they had to show that there was considerably more deaths than previously said and reported in the media. (10 & 20-30)
Most likely will the missing be reported dead in the following weeks when the submarines are done searching, and then the number will get increased over 100.
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So 68 dead but are others still wounded as well? After reading about the choice of ammunition I feel sick about thinking the pain these poor survivors must be in.
As this is my first post in the thread also RIP to the deceased. Truly disgusting.
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On July 26 2011 00:43 ThePhan2m wrote:
Police are critizised for being to slow on getting to Utøya. They are now informing eg. that their fastest way to get there was with car. Police in Norway have 1 available police helicopter, though it was out of service due to holiday.
How did anyone in the norweigan police core managed to NOT get fired yet? Both the firedepartement and media (helicopter) where at the crimescene long before the police despite so many of the people on the island calling the event in. The norweigan police knew about the murderer having purchaded chemicals along time ago but decided not to investigate further.
And there is even a video out from the island where you can hear 3 gunshots and the guy in the video is a member of norweigans own SWAT team and all you can see is that he takes all the time in the world to get something from the car meanwhile children are getting murdered.
And it's not like the crime scene is far out in the middle of nowhere, this is pretty close to the head capital and it was also a high profile area since your primeminister visited the place that day or was supposed to. I mean wtf
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The numbers have been adjusted down, but there are still 40+ people missing, which a lot of them are believed to have drowned. We are still, most likely, looking at 100+ dead after this is all over (Lets hope I'm wrong)
There are, right now, huge amounts of people in "flower / torch trains", all over norway.
Live-tv covering the events: http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/direkte/nrk1/ (in norwegian, but you'll get a glimpse of the insane amount of people)
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I have to post right now.
I was on vacation when everything happened. Looking at the images on the TV, and on the internet in the hotel i felt so angered. If it was on another country, this mad, mad man would not be even alive to confess his crimes at the second day. Some angry mob, a cop, someone would kill him before that. It would be morally wrong, (i believe in the reinstitution of these kind of individuals in society - to some point, and we are already past it) and it would change nothing. But if norway's good will and humanized laws let this man 21 years later create an terrorist group in Europe, when he is free, Norway's people will going to bite their own hat, and rightfully so. From what i read he believes that he will die from radiation... maybe it will, maybe it won't. I guess i got a bit afraid because (im a social worker) from my experience, extreme right political ideas are showing up everywhere.
To think to this day we have to keep with nazi-like ideas... i guess it had this effect because it was on one of the smallest, quiet, civilized societies in the world. It was perfect for this evil political mastermind.
My condolences to the whole country of Norway because this is sure to change everything in your society from top to bottom.
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On July 26 2011 01:03 mdF wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 00:43 ThePhan2m wrote:
Police are critizised for being to slow on getting to Utøya. They are now informing eg. that their fastest way to get there was with car. Police in Norway have 1 available police helicopter, though it was out of service due to holiday. The norweigan police knew about the murderer having purchaded chemicals along time ago but decided not to investigate further.
He bought chemicals to use on his crops. There are a lot of farms in norway, and he had his own firm where he was growing melons. There is just no way the police could know he would use it on anything else
And there is even a video out from the island where you can hear 3 gunshots and the guy in the video is a member of norweigans own SWAT team and all you can see is that he takes all the time in the world to get something from the car meanwhile children are getting murdered.
car? Its a an island without bridges..there are no way to get a car over there. Are you suggesting he should run out of his car on the mainland and swim over?
And it's not like the crime scene is far out in the middle of nowhere, this is pretty close to the head capital and it was also a high profile area since your primeminister visited the place that day or was supposed to. I mean wtf
Its still an island, with no way to get to without boat or a helicopter (The police used the latter). And remember that everyone in Oslo was busy figuring out the explosion in the city center at this point.
The police did their job well, and can not be blamed for this incident.
Edit: The media was at the scene because they where already on their helicopters, trying to film the Bombing in Oslo. They where a lot more mobile. The police have protocols to go through. The fire department was not on the island before the police, thats a straight up lie.
Edit2: The PM was suppose to visit the Island the day after, and he would have brought security with him. There was just no way to know someone would drive over there and massacre everyone like that. If people want to kill, they will be able to. Its impossible to be 100% secure against this at all times.
Edit3: I understand being angry. I started getting annoyed at different people on this forum for no reason, and even lashed out against President Obama for his condolences (doesn't make any sense, I know). But I would urge people to think before they write, and put yourself in the position of those you're attacking.
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On July 26 2011 01:03 mdF wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 00:43 ThePhan2m wrote:
Police are critizised for being to slow on getting to Utøya. They are now informing eg. that their fastest way to get there was with car. Police in Norway have 1 available police helicopter, though it was out of service due to holiday. How did anyone in the norweigan police core managed to NOT get fired yet? Both the firedepartement and media (helicopter) where at the crimescene long before the police despite so many of the people on the island calling the event in. The norweigan police knew about the murderer having purchaded chemicals along time ago but decided not to investigate further. And there is even a video out from the island where you can hear 3 gunshots and the guy in the video is a member of norweigans own SWAT team and all you can see is that he takes all the time in the world to get something from the car meanwhile children are getting murdered. And it's not like the crime scene is far out in the middle of nowhere, this is pretty close to the head capital and it was also a high profile area since your primeminister visited the place that day or was supposed to. I mean wtf
The police does not have a transport helicopter they can use.
PST knew he had bought some chemicals for 14 euroes or soemthing like that, he was on one list among many. And on that list it was 60 others.
And when the police get there they can't just rush to the island. They need to have a plan of action and get briefed first.
The crime scene is 30-40 min drive, and some min by boat.
Primeminister was supposed to visit on saturday i think.
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On July 26 2011 01:03 mdF wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 00:43 ThePhan2m wrote:
Police are critizised for being to slow on getting to Utøya. They are now informing eg. that their fastest way to get there was with car. Police in Norway have 1 available police helicopter, though it was out of service due to holiday. How did anyone in the norweigan police core managed to NOT get fired yet? Both the firedepartement and media (helicopter) where at the crimescene long before the police despite so many of the people on the island calling the event in. The norweigan police knew about the murderer having purchaded chemicals along time ago but decided not to investigate further. And there is even a video out from the island where you can hear 3 gunshots and the guy in the video is a member of norweigans own SWAT team and all you can see is that he takes all the time in the world to get something from the car meanwhile children are getting murdered. And it's not like the crime scene is far out in the middle of nowhere, this is pretty close to the head capital and it was also a high profile area since your primeminister visited the place that day or was supposed to. I mean wtf
I was initially shocked/disturbed as well by the seemingly incompetent response, but you have to consider the facts. Norway's response units aren't accustomed to this type of event. In the US there is an abundance of training and funding for this type of event. It ended up hurting Norway in this particular case, but I think most would still be content with the performance of the response given the relative dearth of crime of this nature in Norway.
You can't assume that every nation is equal in preparedness to all emergency situations, and justifiably so. In the US there is a need for quick reaction teams, fast ropers, helicopters, etc. In Norway there is not. In this single case it played into the killer's plan unfortunately.
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On July 26 2011 01:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:03 mdF wrote:On July 26 2011 00:43 ThePhan2m wrote:
Police are critizised for being to slow on getting to Utøya. They are now informing eg. that their fastest way to get there was with car. Police in Norway have 1 available police helicopter, though it was out of service due to holiday. How did anyone in the norweigan police core managed to NOT get fired yet? Both the firedepartement and media (helicopter) where at the crimescene long before the police despite so many of the people on the island calling the event in. The norweigan police knew about the murderer having purchaded chemicals along time ago but decided not to investigate further. And there is even a video out from the island where you can hear 3 gunshots and the guy in the video is a member of norweigans own SWAT team and all you can see is that he takes all the time in the world to get something from the car meanwhile children are getting murdered. And it's not like the crime scene is far out in the middle of nowhere, this is pretty close to the head capital and it was also a high profile area since your primeminister visited the place that day or was supposed to. I mean wtf I was initially shocked/disturbed as well by the seemingly incompetent response, but you have to consider the facts. Norway's response units aren't accustomed to this type of event. In the US there is an abundance of training and funding for this type of event. It ended up hurting Norway in this particular case, but I think most would still be content with the performance of the response given the relative dearth of crime of this nature in Norway. You can't assume that every nation is equal in preparedness to all emergency situations, and justifiably so. In the US there is a need for quick reaction teams, fast ropers, helicopters, etc. In Norway there is not. In this single case it played into the killer's plan unfortunately.
You could not be more wrong on just about everything you wrote.
The norwegian Response Force or "Delta" is a very well respected special police unit in the world. They spend 50% of their time training for all kinds of terrorist attacks. They have state of the art equipment, and physical and mental training for all sorts of emergencies (and yes they know how to fast rope and react quick).
Yes, it's a shame they don't have their own helicopter to use for situations like this, but those are priorities made in accordance with the budget of Oslo Police District and "Delta". There simply has not been granted enough funds from the politicans for this to be realized. Maybe it will change after this incident.
One can argue in hundreds of ways as to why the police werent on site earlier, but what kind of competence would you have on such issues? Have you taken in account that there was a huge bomb blast in Oslo at the same time? Or that the Utøya incident occured in another police district?
About the police helicopter, as I have understood it was not in comission when all this occured, and on top of that there isn't enough room inside it for transporting several officers in full gear.
All in all, there is in my mind no reason to criticize "Delta", considering the situation at hand (bomb in Oslo) and the resources they had at their disposal. They did at the very least a satisfying job at solving the situation.
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The terrorists skin color, religion, political views, history doesn't matter that much in Norway before police come out with facts, and they will. The response time of the police was what it was. There was a bomb in Oslo 2 hours earlier, it's a 25-35 minute drive and it was on a island, they did what they could with the resources they had and did a GOOD job.
Why are everyone else everywhere caring so much about discussing these things?
Instead as a girl who was on the island said; If one man can hate so much, imagine how much the rest of us can love.
Watch it live (not sure what works outside of Norway)
http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=42462
http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/direkte/nrk2/
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/07/25/nyheter/fakkeltog/innenriks/terror/oslo/17450763/
Central Oslo right now:
![[image loading]](http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174521/17452172/jpg/active/729x.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174525/17452502/jpg/active/978x.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2011/07/25/1311612614074_992.jpg)
Other places in Norway:
![[image loading]](http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174522/17452228/jpg/active/978x.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174523/17452375/jpg/active/640x480.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174524/17452440/jpg/active/737x550.jpg)
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I only hope we all take the time to learn something from this. So long as we do, their deaths won't have been in vain.
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car? Its a an island without bridges..there are no way to get a car over there. Are you suggesting he should run out of his car on the mainland and swim over?
+ Show Spoiler +
"Filmed from a nearby island to Utøya" You honestly think there wasn't a single boat nearby that they could get their hands on?
The police did their job well, and can not be blamed for this incident.
A terrorist (yes that is exactly what he is) managed to park a car full of explosives right outside of a goverment building in broad daylight and there where even threats called in the day before if im not misstaken. And all this while PST knew there was a possible threat picture because of Norways involvement in the middle east. Sure the police can not be blamed for what happened that day but saying they did a god job in either of the situations is wrong.
Edit:The fire department was not on the island before the police, thats a straight up lie.
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/1.2509291/man-sag-att-de-hade-forsokt-skydda-varandra
(Swedish text)
Some quotes from the article:
"Firefighters from Modum were among the first who arrived at Utöya on Friday."
"When the first group of firefighters from Modum arrived to Utöya on Friday at 18:20 Anders Behring Breivik was still not arrested and firefighters talk about how they heard gunfire on the island."
"- We were told constantly not to approach the island." So basicly they must had a way to get to the island but the norweigan swat did not?
Didn't wikileaks expose a document about some members from the U.S embacy in Norway complaining about the incompetence of PST?
All in all FallDownMariGold is right, I probably have way to high expecations on the norweigan police force and I probably should take Norway's history dealing with this sort of situations (none) into consideration. But this entire situation is so frustrating, venting out I guess.
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On July 26 2011 02:30 mdF wrote:Show nested quote +car? Its a an island without bridges..there are no way to get a car over there. Are you suggesting he should run out of his car on the mainland and swim over? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shoYyoPK2Ro&skipcontrinter=1 "Filmed from a nearby island to Utøya" You honestly think there wasn't a single boat nearby that they could get their hands on? A terrorist (yes that is exactly what he is) managed to park a car full of explosives right outside of a goverment building in broad daylight and there where even threats called in the day before if im not misstaken. And all this while PST knew there was a possible threat picture because of Norways involvement in the middle east. Sure the police can not be blamed for what happened that day but saying they did a god job in either of the situations is wrong. Show nested quote +Edit:The fire department was not on the island before the police, thats a straight up lie. http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/1.2509291/man-sag-att-de-hade-forsokt-skydda-varandra(Swedish text) Some quotes from the article: "Firefighters from Modum were among the first who arrived at Utöya on Friday." "When the first group of firefighters from Modum arrived to Utöya on Friday at 18:20 Anders Behring Breivik was still not arrested and firefighters talk about how they heard gunfire on the island." "- We were told constantly not to approach the island." So basicly they must had a way to get to the island but the norweigan swat did not? Didn't wikileaks expose a document about some members from the U.S embacy in Norway complaining about the incompetence of PST? All in all FallDownMariGold is right, I probably have way to high expecations on the norweigan police force and I probably should take Norway's history dealing with this sort of situations (none) into consideration. But this entire situation is so frustrating, venting out I guess.
I do not know of this swedish newspaper, and have no idea if its trustworthy (if anyone else can back it up, I'll believe it). Its still pretty stupid for the firefighters to arrive on such a small island with the gunman still shooting at people.
You still failed to consider that there was a huge bomb that went off right before all this, and the police did not know how severe the problem on Utøya was right away. What right do the US embassy have to comment on how our own people handed our own problem? Its disgusting to think they would even do that.
Again, put yourself in the situation of the policemen. All you know is that there are gunfire on a remote island. You do not know how many shooters there are, and you do not know the situation. Are you seriously suggesting they grab the nearest boat and rush out there, where there could be one or more people waiting for them with live weapons..without a solid plan?
We don't have any real army in norway, nor really that many policemen. But out specially trained units (both in the army and Delta) are considered to be among the best trained in the world. I would really get my facts straight, and know every little detail about the operation before I started lashing out to them.
Edit: You can not control everything, and things will happen. If someone plan a murder for 9 years, and is smart enough to go through with a solid plan..how are you going to stop him, short of a miracle? No miracle happened on that day.
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The updated post from Plexa's post is amazing. Truly amazing reaction to the situation at hand.
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Pst getting slack for not reacting to a credit card check ages ago, if you'd go all out on whims like that you'd be plenty busy I say...
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On July 26 2011 02:30 mdF wrote:
All in all FallDownMariGold is right, I probably have way to high expecations on the norweigan police force and I probably should take Norway's history dealing with this sort of situations (none) into consideration. But this entire situation is so frustrating, venting out I guess.
Oh drop the condecending tone. The Swedish police force didn't exactly shine during the helicopter robbery at Västberga, we wouldn't have managed the situation any better.
I don't get this attitude to always need someone to blame. I admire the way Norway is handling all this as a nation not pointing fingers blaming one another. This was an extreme situation, one you can never truly prepare for.
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When is this guy making a statement?
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EPT
