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Keep your off topic discussions out of this thread and show some damn respect! |
On July 26 2011 02:01 McNulty wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 01:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 26 2011 01:03 mdF wrote:On July 26 2011 00:43 ThePhan2m wrote:
Police are critizised for being to slow on getting to Utøya. They are now informing eg. that their fastest way to get there was with car. Police in Norway have 1 available police helicopter, though it was out of service due to holiday. How did anyone in the norweigan police core managed to NOT get fired yet? Both the firedepartement and media (helicopter) where at the crimescene long before the police despite so many of the people on the island calling the event in. The norweigan police knew about the murderer having purchaded chemicals along time ago but decided not to investigate further. And there is even a video out from the island where you can hear 3 gunshots and the guy in the video is a member of norweigans own SWAT team and all you can see is that he takes all the time in the world to get something from the car meanwhile children are getting murdered. And it's not like the crime scene is far out in the middle of nowhere, this is pretty close to the head capital and it was also a high profile area since your primeminister visited the place that day or was supposed to. I mean wtf I was initially shocked/disturbed as well by the seemingly incompetent response, but you have to consider the facts. Norway's response units aren't accustomed to this type of event. In the US there is an abundance of training and funding for this type of event. It ended up hurting Norway in this particular case, but I think most would still be content with the performance of the response given the relative dearth of crime of this nature in Norway. You can't assume that every nation is equal in preparedness to all emergency situations, and justifiably so. In the US there is a need for quick reaction teams, fast ropers, helicopters, etc. In Norway there is not. In this single case it played into the killer's plan unfortunately. You could not be more wrong on just about everything you wrote. The norwegian Response Force or "Delta" is a very well respected special police unit in the world. They spend 50% of their time training for all kinds of terrorist attacks. They have state of the art equipment, and physical and mental training for all sorts of emergencies (and yes they know how to fast rope and react quick). Yes, it's a shame they don't have their own helicopter to use for situations like this, but those are priorities made in accordance with the budget of Oslo Police District and "Delta". There simply has not been granted enough funds from the politicans for this to be realized. Maybe it will change after this incident. One can argue in hundreds of ways as to why the police werent on site earlier, but what kind of competence would you have on such issues? Have you taken in account that there was a huge bomb blast in Oslo at the same time? Or that the Utøya incident occured in another police district? About the police helicopter, as I have understood it was not in comission when all this occured, and on top of that there isn't enough room inside it for transporting several officers in full gear. All in all, there is in my mind no reason to criticize "Delta", considering the situation at hand (bomb in Oslo) and the resources they had at their disposal. They did at the very least a satisfying job at solving the situation.
Hmm. The funny thing is that you're actually agreeing with me and reiterating everything I said, despite the fact that you misinterpretted me as being patently incorrect. Your fault is that I implied that whatever system Norway does operate is unworthy or ineffective. In fact I said those were only my initial thoughts - upon more careful thought it becomes apparent that Norway is simply not accustomed to this type of event (to which you allude and I address), thus there is not as great of an "abundance of training and funds" (re: my quote) geared towards responding as quickly and efficiently as there is in other more relevantly affected nations (re: US). You correctly point out what I pointed out, only you defined the deficiencies: only one helicopter, out of commission for the holidays, etc. I pointed out the fact that those deficiencies are not due to incompetence, but rather to the fact that Norway simply requires less devotion of resources and preparedness to this sort of occurrence given Norway's comparatively tame domestic modern history. By definition having only one helicopter points to less ready-ability/preparedness - that said, it's reasonable given the differences between Norway and, say, a country like the US in which quick reaction readiness in ALL situations (including multi-location attacks and holidays) is required. The risk for such an event is much higher given the nature of the rate at which this magnitude of crime occurs in either country, respectively.
Clear?
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Stop instantly branding everyone who expresses even the slightest bit of doubt about immigration policies as a racist who agrees with this man and is an immoral human.
That's exactly what he said what would happen, and the sad thing is that it's actually true too.
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On July 26 2011 03:55 nordlyset wrote:
Wow its realy making me angry that people in USA including Glenn Beck is comparing the AUF political youth camp with Hitlerjugend. This absolutely nonsens! Do people in USA belive what this guy is saying or is he known to be full off garbage?.
He didn't say that at all. This is what he said:
Beck said the camp "sounds a little like the Hitler Youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics?"
I believe the OP of this thread called it a "socialist youth camp." Saying that sounds "a little like" an indoctrination camp at first glance is perfectly rational.
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For him, this is a success. He attracted massive attention to his manifesto and political views, 20 years of prison? NP. He's out again in his mid 50s.
This guy planned this out very well, he's didn't just randomly go and kill a bunch of people, it was targetted to get his point across and to get most possible attention to himself and his views.
That this guy is ONLY given 21 years for what he's done is just a testiment of norweigan law system that is so extremely mild and forgiving.
Its like any psychos heaven to go to norway and commit crimes, they know they'll get a mild punishment in comparison to whats in other countries and continents.
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On July 26 2011 04:18 Senx wrote:
For him, this is a success. He attracted massive attention to his manifesto and political views, 20 years of prison? NP. He's out again in his mid 50s.
This guy planned this out very well, he's didn't just randomly go and kill a bunch of people, it was targetted to get his point across and to get most possible attention to himself and his views.
That this guy is ONLY given 21 years for what he's done is just a testiment of norweigan law system that is so extremely mild and forgiving.
Its like any psychos heaven to go to norway and commit crimes, they know they'll get a mild punishment in comparison to whats in other countries and continents. For god's sake, read the damn OP. You're like the 1000th person not doing that.
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Those calling for the death or torture of this man are morally abhorrent people.
Even from a purely statistical point of view, it is clear that Norway's justice system is infinitely better than that in the US, and no justice system can prevent the actions of a crazed ideological individual.
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On July 26 2011 04:18 Senx wrote:
For him, this is a success. He attracted massive attention to his manifesto and political views, 20 years of prison? NP. He's out again in his mid 50s.
This guy planned this out very well, he's didn't just randomly go and kill a bunch of people, it was targetted to get his point across and to get most possible attention to himself and his views.
That this guy is ONLY given 21 years for what he's done is just a testiment of norweigan law system that is so extremely mild and forgiving.
Its like any psychos heaven to go to norway and commit crimes, they know they'll get a mild punishment in comparison to whats in other countries and continents.
I was under the impression that he would get a longer punishment due to the circumstances of his current crime. Some news outlets and some posters here have elaborated on why that is possible. In fact, according to some outlets, he expects life in prison: http://news.yahoo.com/norway-rampage-culprit-calm-expects-life-jail-161443626.html.
However, I think that some of the media coverage to the attacks were slightly reprehensible. When the bombing incident first occurred, many 'terror experts' were convinced that Islamic radicalism was responsible for these incidents while speculating about what ties Norway had with Muslims and the Middle East. When information about the attacker came out, these same 'experts' started talking about the dangers of right-wing extremists. To me, that was an irresponsible response to the attacks given the lack of information that was available at the time.
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On July 26 2011 04:17 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 03:55 nordlyset wrote:
Wow its realy making me angry that people in USA including Glenn Beck is comparing the AUF political youth camp with Hitlerjugend. This absolutely nonsens! Do people in USA belive what this guy is saying or is he known to be full off garbage?. He didn't say that at all. This is what he said: Beck said the camp "sounds a little like the Hitler Youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics?" I believe the OP of this thread called it a "socialist youth camp." Saying that sounds "a little like" an indoctrination camp at first glance is perfectly rational.
It really isn't rational, firstly because it's glenn beck and secondly because pretty much every major political organisation in pretty much every western country has a youth program. Including the right-wing glenn beck belongs to.
If the young groups on the american fringes are coming together to debate their 'ideals' (as they do), he would refer to it as patriotic, brave, you name it, but certainly not as hitlerjugend. Suddenly tho, it's socialists and beck will do pretty much anything to trash those.
Can we please keep opinions from people like him out of this thread? He doesn't have the slightest clue when it comes to anything outside of his beloved USA.
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On July 26 2011 04:24 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:17 BlackJack wrote:On July 26 2011 03:55 nordlyset wrote:
Wow its realy making me angry that people in USA including Glenn Beck is comparing the AUF political youth camp with Hitlerjugend. This absolutely nonsens! Do people in USA belive what this guy is saying or is he known to be full off garbage?. He didn't say that at all. This is what he said: Beck said the camp "sounds a little like the Hitler Youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics?" I believe the OP of this thread called it a "socialist youth camp." Saying that sounds "a little like" an indoctrination camp at first glance is perfectly rational. It really isn't rational, firstly because it's glenn beck and secondly because pretty much every major political organisation in pretty much every western country has a youth program. Including the right-wing glenn beck belongs to. If the young groups on the american fringes are coming together to debate their 'ideals' (as they do), he would refer to it as patriotic, brave, you name it, but certainly not as hitlerjugend. Suddenly tho, it's socialists and beck will do pretty much anything to trash those. Can we please keep opinions from people like him out of this thread? He doesn't have the slightest clue when it comes to anything outside of his beloved USA.
im pretty sure that happened because americans are allergic to the word 'socialism'
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On July 26 2011 03:55 nordlyset wrote:
Wow its realy making me angry that people in USA including Glenn Beck is comparing the AUF political youth camp with Hitlerjugend. This absolutely nonsens! Do people in USA belive what this guy is saying or is he known to be full off garbage?.
Like Glenn Beck said "just a LITTLE like"
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QtKia.jpg)
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On July 26 2011 04:11 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 02:01 McNulty wrote:On July 26 2011 01:20 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 26 2011 01:03 mdF wrote:On July 26 2011 00:43 ThePhan2m wrote:
Police are critizised for being to slow on getting to Utøya. They are now informing eg. that their fastest way to get there was with car. Police in Norway have 1 available police helicopter, though it was out of service due to holiday. How did anyone in the norweigan police core managed to NOT get fired yet? Both the firedepartement and media (helicopter) where at the crimescene long before the police despite so many of the people on the island calling the event in. The norweigan police knew about the murderer having purchaded chemicals along time ago but decided not to investigate further. And there is even a video out from the island where you can hear 3 gunshots and the guy in the video is a member of norweigans own SWAT team and all you can see is that he takes all the time in the world to get something from the car meanwhile children are getting murdered. And it's not like the crime scene is far out in the middle of nowhere, this is pretty close to the head capital and it was also a high profile area since your primeminister visited the place that day or was supposed to. I mean wtf I was initially shocked/disturbed as well by the seemingly incompetent response, but you have to consider the facts. Norway's response units aren't accustomed to this type of event. In the US there is an abundance of training and funding for this type of event. It ended up hurting Norway in this particular case, but I think most would still be content with the performance of the response given the relative dearth of crime of this nature in Norway. You can't assume that every nation is equal in preparedness to all emergency situations, and justifiably so. In the US there is a need for quick reaction teams, fast ropers, helicopters, etc. In Norway there is not. In this single case it played into the killer's plan unfortunately. You could not be more wrong on just about everything you wrote. The norwegian Response Force or "Delta" is a very well respected special police unit in the world. They spend 50% of their time training for all kinds of terrorist attacks. They have state of the art equipment, and physical and mental training for all sorts of emergencies (and yes they know how to fast rope and react quick). Yes, it's a shame they don't have their own helicopter to use for situations like this, but those are priorities made in accordance with the budget of Oslo Police District and "Delta". There simply has not been granted enough funds from the politicans for this to be realized. Maybe it will change after this incident. One can argue in hundreds of ways as to why the police werent on site earlier, but what kind of competence would you have on such issues? Have you taken in account that there was a huge bomb blast in Oslo at the same time? Or that the Utøya incident occured in another police district? About the police helicopter, as I have understood it was not in comission when all this occured, and on top of that there isn't enough room inside it for transporting several officers in full gear. All in all, there is in my mind no reason to criticize "Delta", considering the situation at hand (bomb in Oslo) and the resources they had at their disposal. They did at the very least a satisfying job at solving the situation. Hmm. The funny thing is that you're actually agreeing with me and reiterating everything I said, despite the fact that you misinterpretted me as being patently incorrect. Your fault is that I implied that whatever system Norway does operate is unworthy or ineffective. In fact I said those were only my initial thoughts - upon more careful thought it becomes apparent that Norway is simply not accustomed to this type of event (to which you allude and I address), thus there is not as great of an "abundance of training and funds" (re: my quote) geared towards responding as quickly and efficiently as there is in other more relevantly affected nations (re: US). You correctly point out what I pointed out, only you defined the deficiencies: only one helicopter, out of commission for the holidays, etc. I pointed out the fact that those deficiencies are not due to incompetence, but rather to the fact that Norway simply requires less devotion of resources and preparedness to this sort of occurrence given Norway's comparatively tame domestic modern history. By definition having only one helicopter points to less ready-ability/preparedness - that said, it's reasonable given the differences between Norway and, say, a country like the US in which quick reaction readiness in ALL situations (including multi-location attacks and holidays) is required. The risk for such an event is much higher given the nature of the rate at which this magnitude of crime occurs in either country, respectively. Clear?
Its always easy to blame someone afterwords, but I'm sure they did everything the could.
also, I agree that the us police has better material, but it still takes its time till they are on sight.
For example remember the Virginia Tech Massacre, not much they could do there either :/
I think the Norwegians are handling everything pretty well, its just such a tragedy..
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On July 26 2011 04:24 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:17 BlackJack wrote:On July 26 2011 03:55 nordlyset wrote:
Wow its realy making me angry that people in USA including Glenn Beck is comparing the AUF political youth camp with Hitlerjugend. This absolutely nonsens! Do people in USA belive what this guy is saying or is he known to be full off garbage?. He didn't say that at all. This is what he said: Beck said the camp "sounds a little like the Hitler Youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics?" I believe the OP of this thread called it a "socialist youth camp." Saying that sounds "a little like" an indoctrination camp at first glance is perfectly rational. He doesn't have the slightest clue in regards to anything.
Fixed, his brand of political punditry is a huge factor contributing to the horrible state of partisan politics here in the US.
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Anyone actually care for what Glenn Beck has to say? I don't take a single word that man say seriously.
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On July 26 2011 04:20 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:18 Senx wrote:
For him, this is a success. He attracted massive attention to his manifesto and political views, 20 years of prison? NP. He's out again in his mid 50s.
This guy planned this out very well, he's didn't just randomly go and kill a bunch of people, it was targetted to get his point across and to get most possible attention to himself and his views.
That this guy is ONLY given 21 years for what he's done is just a testiment of norweigan law system that is so extremely mild and forgiving.
Its like any psychos heaven to go to norway and commit crimes, they know they'll get a mild punishment in comparison to whats in other countries and continents. For god's sake, read the damn OP. You're like the 1000th person not doing that.
But after the 21 years they need to determine if he's still dangerous to the society and can't be released, and when doing that his past crimes(murder of ~76 people) shouldn't have an effect on the decision.
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On July 26 2011 04:24 TranceStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:18 Senx wrote:
For him, this is a success. He attracted massive attention to his manifesto and political views, 20 years of prison? NP. He's out again in his mid 50s.
This guy planned this out very well, he's didn't just randomly go and kill a bunch of people, it was targetted to get his point across and to get most possible attention to himself and his views.
That this guy is ONLY given 21 years for what he's done is just a testiment of norweigan law system that is so extremely mild and forgiving.
Its like any psychos heaven to go to norway and commit crimes, they know they'll get a mild punishment in comparison to whats in other countries and continents. I was under the impression that he would get a longer punishment due to the circumstances of his current crime. Some news outlets and some posters here have elaborated on why that is possible. In fact, according to some outlets, he expects life in prison: http://news.yahoo.com/norway-rampage-culprit-calm-expects-life-jail-161443626.html. However, I think that some of the media coverage to the attacks were slightly reprehensible. When the bombing incident first occurred, many 'terror experts' were convinced that Islamic radicalism was responsible for these incidents while speculating about what ties Norway had with Muslims and the Middle East. When information about the attacker came out, these same 'experts' started talking about the dangers of right-wing extremists. To me, that was an irresponsible response to the attacks given the lack of information that was available at the time.
That only occured in International media coverage. In Norway noone mentioned anything about Muslims, except some newspapers had a footnote regarding one organisation claiming they did it.
I am very impressed in the way our officials have handled this, information have been given to the media when it is verified, no wild guesses from anyone.
The ceremony earlier tonight in Oslo with 150 000 honouring the victims in a town who only have between 600-700 000 inhabitants shows how the entire country is supporting each other in these times of sorrow.
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I just got back from the Flower ceremony in Oslo and i can only repeat how proud I am of how my country has tackled and is still tackling this crisis.
![[image loading]](http://gfx.nrk.no/WltYHHAehfZMntQu0kyKngTijOz3H4VaEdMG7PxXRvSA.jpg)
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On July 26 2011 04:33 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:20 Thorakh wrote:On July 26 2011 04:18 Senx wrote:
For him, this is a success. He attracted massive attention to his manifesto and political views, 20 years of prison? NP. He's out again in his mid 50s.
This guy planned this out very well, he's didn't just randomly go and kill a bunch of people, it was targetted to get his point across and to get most possible attention to himself and his views.
That this guy is ONLY given 21 years for what he's done is just a testiment of norweigan law system that is so extremely mild and forgiving.
Its like any psychos heaven to go to norway and commit crimes, they know they'll get a mild punishment in comparison to whats in other countries and continents. For god's sake, read the damn OP. You're like the 1000th person not doing that. But after the 21 years they need to determine if he's still dangerous to the society and can't be released, and when doing that his past crimes(murder of ~76 people) shouldn't have an effect on the decision. He killed about 100 people if the people still missing are dead. No one is going to set him free after 21 years. If he killed his wife's lover in a rage, then yes, but this man killed more than 80 people in cold blood, preparing the deed for over 9 years and whatnot else.
He'll never be free. And even if he goes free, that will be because he finally realised what he has done which will have shattered his soul. He'll be safe to release then. I would have no problems with that as his conscience will be enough punishment for the rest of his life. Doubt that's gonna happen though.
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On July 26 2011 04:24 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:17 BlackJack wrote:On July 26 2011 03:55 nordlyset wrote:
Wow its realy making me angry that people in USA including Glenn Beck is comparing the AUF political youth camp with Hitlerjugend. This absolutely nonsens! Do people in USA belive what this guy is saying or is he known to be full off garbage?. He didn't say that at all. This is what he said: Beck said the camp "sounds a little like the Hitler Youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics?" I believe the OP of this thread called it a "socialist youth camp." Saying that sounds "a little like" an indoctrination camp at first glance is perfectly rational. It really isn't rational, firstly because it's glenn beck and secondly because pretty much every major political organisation in pretty much every western country has a youth program. Including the right-wing glenn beck belongs to. If the young groups on the american fringes are coming together to debate their 'ideals' (as they do), he would refer to it as patriotic, brave, you name it, but certainly not as hitlerjugend. Suddenly tho, it's socialists and beck will do pretty much anything to trash those. Can we please keep opinions from people like him out of this thread? He doesn't have the slightest clue when it comes to anything outside of his beloved USA.
Arguing that Glenn Beck is bias is kind of pointless when determining if a statement is irrational. It's not rational because Glenn Beck said it isn't really a worthwhile argument either.
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On July 26 2011 04:35 MentalM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 04:24 TranceStorm wrote:On July 26 2011 04:18 Senx wrote:
For him, this is a success. He attracted massive attention to his manifesto and political views, 20 years of prison? NP. He's out again in his mid 50s.
This guy planned this out very well, he's didn't just randomly go and kill a bunch of people, it was targetted to get his point across and to get most possible attention to himself and his views.
That this guy is ONLY given 21 years for what he's done is just a testiment of norweigan law system that is so extremely mild and forgiving.
Its like any psychos heaven to go to norway and commit crimes, they know they'll get a mild punishment in comparison to whats in other countries and continents. I was under the impression that he would get a longer punishment due to the circumstances of his current crime. Some news outlets and some posters here have elaborated on why that is possible. In fact, according to some outlets, he expects life in prison: http://news.yahoo.com/norway-rampage-culprit-calm-expects-life-jail-161443626.html. However, I think that some of the media coverage to the attacks were slightly reprehensible. When the bombing incident first occurred, many 'terror experts' were convinced that Islamic radicalism was responsible for these incidents while speculating about what ties Norway had with Muslims and the Middle East. When information about the attacker came out, these same 'experts' started talking about the dangers of right-wing extremists. To me, that was an irresponsible response to the attacks given the lack of information that was available at the time. That only occured in International media coverage. In Norway noone mentioned anything about Muslims, except some newspapers had a footnote regarding one organisation claiming they did it. I am very impressed in the way our officials have handled this, information have been given to the media when it is verified, no wild guesses from anyone. The ceremony earlier tonight in Oslo with 150 000 honouring the victims in a town who only have between 600-700 000 inhabitants shows how the entire country is supporting each other in these times of sorrow.
Thanks for the info, I was unaware of what the Norwegian media response was like. It's unfortunate that the international media so quickly makes conclusions. I myself was led astray by some these reports myself, so its nice to learn that Norway's response has been more fair and accurate.
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EPT
