EPTI just made a (simplified) comparison to something the eports demographic holds near and dear, in the hope to foster understanding of a disease that, although it has been around for thousands of years, is often misunderstood by those not affected.
A Cure for Alcoholism? - Page 6
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wollhandkrabbe
Germany97 Posts
I just made a (simplified) comparison to something the eports demographic holds near and dear, in the hope to foster understanding of a disease that, although it has been around for thousands of years, is often misunderstood by those not affected. | ||
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Carush
United States356 Posts
i was under the impression it was just people who didn't have any self control (i could be wrong tho) | ||
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Carush
United States356 Posts
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Lucidity
South Africa603 Posts
On July 16 2011 10:52 tok wrote: I have alcoholism in my family I may need this some day. There is no alcoholism gene. On July 16 2011 20:38 Carush wrote: has it even been proven that alcoholism is a real disease? i was under the impression it was just people who didn't have any self control (i could be wrong tho) It has never been proven to be a disease. Cancer is a disease. You can't simply stop having cancer with willpower. You can stop alcoholism with willpower. If anyone wants to claim "alcoholism is a disease", the best they can do is to claim that some people have weak willpower really. I'm not disputing that there are withdrawal/physiological symptoms from alcohol abuse, but there is clearly no "alcoholism disease". Perhaps only some psychological traits which encourage alcoholism. | ||
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Greatness
United States450 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:41 Lucidity wrote: There is no alcoholism gene. It has never been proven to be a disease. Cancer is a disease. You can't simply stop having cancer with willpower. You can stop alcoholism with willpower. If anyone wants to claim "alcoholism is a disease", the best they can do is to claim that some people have weak willpower really. I'm not disputing that there are withdrawal/physiological symptoms from alcohol abuse, but there is clearly no "alcoholism disease". Perhaps only some psychological traits which encourage alcoholism. I'd call it a disease, because of the meaning of the word. dis-ease, it brings pain to the person. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On July 16 2011 19:56 wollhandkrabbe wrote: How about another analogy: Stop having sex. Right now. Don't do it ever again, not even on your own. Even if it's a hard thing to do, some actually manage to do it, dedicated monks come to mind. That actually requires roughly about the same dedication and strenght of will as does abstinence for an alcoholic. Booze and sex work in a comparable way in the reward center of the brain, and in a comparable intensitiy. thats why i said that its a very hard thing to do but some people actually realize that they have to make a change and have the willpower to do so. edit: Not having sex is probably way easier than staying away from alcohol if you're an alcoholic | ||
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wollhandkrabbe
Germany97 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:41 Lucidity wrote:Cancer is a disease. You can't simply stop having cancer with willpower. Well alcoholism alters and damages brain structures. You can't undo those alterations and damages with willpower. Furthermore, the alterations negatively affect your willpower regarding alcohol. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
And that it can work for an alcoholic shouldn't be a surprise. Ethanol is a selective GABA (a)(b)(c) agonist, which is the reason why a person, when drunk, is so limber. Their muscles are really, really relaxed. And going back to drinking like an alcoholic cares severe risk, up to making you dead, on Baclofen. So there's that worry as well. | ||
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Lucidity
South Africa603 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:55 wollhandkrabbe wrote: Well alcoholism alters and damages brain structures. You can't undo those alterations and damages with willpower. Furthermore, the alterations negatively affect your willpower regarding alcohol. That is as a result from drinking alcohol. Not from the "alcoholism disease". Think about this: If I had the "alcoholism disease" and while drunk I managed to stab something into my brain, I would also not be able to undo the damages caused. But you can't attribute the damage to the "alcoholism disease". The damage was caused by a sharp object in my brain. Just like alcohol can cause damage. It's not the "disease" that causes this damage. I could do the same damage to myself without being an alcoholic. | ||
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Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
On July 16 2011 10:43 urasheep wrote: Agreed with this post. It's not some crazy disease, it's just like quitting tobacco. I can't really see it through an alcoholics eyes though, so my opinion shouldn't matter too much. You have never met a real alcoholic, now, have you? That said,... "A person who wishes to remain anonymous donated $750,000 to Amsterdam university in the Netherlands to initiate a clinical trial of high-dose baclofen. The trial was scheduled to start sometime in 2011." There is no "Amsterdam university". There's the a) University of Amsterdam and b) Free University of Amsterdam. Since we (UvA) have some specialists in the field of addiction (e.g. Prof. Dr. Richard Ridderinkhof) I would assume it's us, but yea. | ||
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Vain
Netherlands1115 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:50 Greatness wrote: I'd call it a disease, because of the meaning of the word. dis-ease, it brings pain to the person. Scratches also bring pain to a person but can hardly been seen as a disease. Just like breaking a bone isn't called a disease. Alcoholism isn't something you can cure in a hurry but it is not like you HAD to drink in the first place. One way or another you started drinking that much. Not someone else but you. That's why its so hard to call a disease and probably never will. | ||
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foobahz
China68 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:38 Carush wrote: has it even been proven that alcoholism is a real disease? i was under the impression it was just people who didn't have any self control (i could be wrong tho) it's mixed opinion and you're right, your second sentence is incorrect. alcohol is not a drug you can just quit cold turkey with willpower or "self control". you guys need to understand this .. once you drink enough alcohol your body undergoes changes and becomes dependent on it. without the alcohol you go through a myriad of horrendous withdrawl symptoms one of which (Delirium tremens) can kill you outright. quitting alcohol if you're heavily addicted is not something you can do with self-control or will power alone. it's not comparable to something like losing weight by eating less or having self-discipline to go to the gym regularly, or abstaining from sex like someone said earlier. Some of you guys are under estimating and belittling just how terrible alcohol addiction is and how easily it can ruin people's lives. | ||
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wollhandkrabbe
Germany97 Posts
On July 16 2011 21:03 Lucidity wrote: Think about this: If I had the "alcoholism disease" and while drunk I managed to stab something into my brain, I would also not be able to undo the damages caused. But you can't attribute the damage to the "alcoholism disease". The damage was caused by a sharp object in my brain. Just like alcohol can cause damage. It's not the "disease" that causes this damage. I could do the same damage to myself without being an alcoholic. That is right regarding the long term brain damage done by alcohol. The alterations done to synaptic pathways in the reward center of your brain however are a result of alcohol abuse. They happen before it becomes a disease, and this time when alcoholism is developing is the time when willpower, and much more than that, just plain education about what alcohol abuse will do to you, can help a lot in preventing alcoholism. When those alterations are in effect however, they are irreversible and very severely hinder you from stopping, by rewarding you for drinking and punishing you for not drinking. That's the point when abuse turns into disease. | ||
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Lucidity
South Africa603 Posts
On July 16 2011 21:14 foobahz wrote: it's mixed opinion and you're right, your second sentence is incorrect. alcohol is not a drug you can just quit cold turkey with willpower or "self control". you guys need to understand this .. once you drink enough alcohol your body undergoes changes and becomes dependent on it. without the alcohol you go through a myriad of horrendous withdrawl symptoms one of which (Delirium tremens) can kill you outright. quitting alcohol if you're heavily addicted is not something you can do with self-control or will power alone. it's not comparable to something like losing weight by eating less or having self-discipline to go to the gym regularly, or abstaining from sex like someone said earlier. Some of you guys are under estimating and belittling just how terrible alcohol addiction is and how easily it can ruin people's lives. That is simply not true. I personally know people who have become sober through willpower alone. People who sober up while going to AA do it with willpower alone. edit: I realise that medical assistance might be required in some cases, but even in these cases after the initial withdrawal symptoms are treated, it is simply a case of willpower. I also have a family member who is an alcoholic so I'm not underestimating the damage it can do, but that doesn't mean that it should be classified as a disease. Heroin withdrawal symptoms can be extreme, but I don't think anyone is claiming that people suffer from the "heroinism disease". On July 16 2011 21:26 wollhandkrabbe wrote: That is right regarding the long term brain damage done by alcohol. The alterations done to synaptic pathways in the reward center of your brain however are a result of alcohol abuse. They happen before it becomes a disease, and this time when alcoholism is developing is the time when willpower, and much more than that, just plain education about what alcohol abuse will do to you, can help a lot in preventing alcoholism. When those alterations are in effect however, they are irreversible and very severely hinder you from stopping, by rewarding you for drinking and punishing you for not drinking. That's the point when abuse turns into disease. I understand that, but I don't believe that you can call that a disease. Simply having withdrawal symptoms does not constitute a disease in my opinion. There are certainly withdrawal symptoms from other drugs. Smoking is not a disease. It may cause other diseases, similar to alcohol abuse, but it is not a disease. | ||
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beachbeachy
United States509 Posts
Some of these addicts can stop using, but they're only left feeling non content with cravings for the rest of their lives.The only thing that will most likely ever work for a true alcoholic/addict is spiritual recovery. | ||
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beachbeachy
United States509 Posts
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Lucidity
South Africa603 Posts
On July 16 2011 22:56 beachbeachy wrote: So many in this people don't understand what an alcoholic is. You can't prescribe another drug to treat a drug addiction. Alcoholism/drug addiction (same thing) may not be genetic, but these certain "addicts" can't use drugs/alcohol AT ALL (this includes drugs like baclofen) or they will start using whatever they can get. Addicts don't use drugs to relax and hang out with friends, they use drugs because they HAVE to. Some of these addicts can stop using, but they're only left feeling non content with cravings for the rest of their lives.The only thing that will most likely ever work for a true alcoholic/addict is spiritual recovery. I hope you don't mean finding Jesus  Can you link to some info regarding alcoholics and how they should not use ANY drugs for risk of addiction? I've never heard this theory before. | ||
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beachbeachy
United States509 Posts
On July 16 2011 23:16 Lucidity wrote: I hope you don't mean finding Jesus Can you link to some info regarding alcoholics and how they should not use ANY drugs for risk of addiction? I've never heard this theory before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism. Alcoholism shouldn't even be a term, because it's 100% synonymous with drug addiction (considering alcohol is a drug). Addicts will abuse anything they can get. | ||
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HowitZer
United States1610 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On top of that it's not a cure, if it has to be taken for the rest of their lifes. But still, it's the same way with several diseases. Cancer, aids, several mental diseases require you to take drugs for the rest of your life, some treatments may cure you, some may have to be done for the rest of your life. Still noone comes along and says it's just a replacement, or it's not a cure, it just weakens impacts of the disease. As many said before, only very few got the background information to really judge this right and I sure don't as well, but I don't see the point of just downright ignoring it or saying you should not do that out of ignorance because you think it's not a disease or they'd be able to deal with it alone. | ||
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