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On July 17 2011 03:08 Dariusz wrote:Stopped reading there. As an addict and person passionate about psychology and neurology i can tell there is no such thing unless we are talking about physical addiction, like with heroine.
Addictiveness of a drug depends on its peak plasma and half-life. The faster it reaches its maximum level in the plasma and the shorter the half-life, the more addictive it is and the more likely you will be to suffer from withdrawal symptoms. Instead of "stopping to read" when something contradicts your opinion, you should carefully examine it. Being interested in psychology for a hobby does not qualify you to make judgements about whether it is addictive or not.
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Unless you've actually experienced addiction yourself, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I completely understand how from an outside perspective it seems as if people have no will power, and the idea of it being a disease sounds silly. Once you've actually experienced it it's completely different. I would label addiction as more of a disorder than a disease. It's called a disease because it's progressive, but I guess disorders can be progressive too.
To reiterate my point, unless you have actually experienced addiction you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The mindset of being in active addiction is absolutely beyond words, and anyone who chalks this up to a lack of willpower is completely ignorant.
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On July 17 2011 02:52 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Though, with you on the infusion pump, the dosage is much lower. Orally administered does a heavy spike & drop. Alcohol (or any medication that works on the same functions) would be massively increased in effect, which is the real danger with GABA agonists. Though, for you, since you're on the infusion, odds are your GABAergic activity is so much lower, the dosage of alcohol required would be far different than someone is a generally functional GABAergic system.
And having "withdrawal" symptoms isn't a line of addiction, it's just a sign of being in a homeostatic state with the drug. If you crave the drug after it's left your body, THEN it's addiction.
Yeah that is pretty much all true. I'm on the pump because the side effects that oral Baclofen (drowsiness, mental slowness) has are non-existent with the pump because the dose is so much lower (200 micrograms/day). I have certainly never craved Baclofen. I'm a little slow this morning (hangover), so I didn't really think about it. And, if you don't mind me asking, how do you know so much about Baclofen and infusion pumps?
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On July 17 2011 03:16 Dagobert wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 03:08 Dariusz wrote:It is non-addictive Stopped reading there. As an addict and person passionate about psychology and neurology i can tell there is no such thing unless we are talking about physical addiction, like with heroine. Addictiveness of a drug depends on its peak plasma and half-life. The faster it reaches its maximum level in the plasma and the shorter the half-life, the more addictive it is and the more likely you will be to suffer from withdrawal symptoms. Instead of "stopping to read" when something contradicts your opinion, you should carefully examine it. Being interested in psychology for a hobby does not qualify you to make judgements about whether it is addictive or not.
What do you base this on?
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On July 17 2011 02:47 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 02:34 Lucidity wrote:On July 17 2011 01:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 17 2011 00:30 Equity213 wrote:
I get real tired of this 'alcoholism is a disease' crap. Im addicted to cigarettes, can we call that a disease? I drink to much coffee, maybe I have a disease. Yeah its a disease called a weak will.
Im not judging because I have my addictions too, I just dont like it when people abjegate theiir personal responsibility. Im responsible for my addictions, not some disease.
But to the OP, this sounds really cool. It makes me think of ibogaine for heroin users. Cant wait to see more studies on this stuff. WOW. You, sir, win the Mr. Ignorant award for today. It's cool that you're an armchair expert in the realm of opinion and whatnot, but there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. And there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. As far as I'm aware, alcoholism as a disease was commonly accepted in the past. The more recent trend is to move away from calling it a disease. On July 17 2011 01:40 Diavlo wrote:
I get real tired of this 'alcoholism is a disease' crap. Im addicted to cigarettes, can we call that a disease? I drink to much coffee, maybe I have a disease. Yeah its a disease called a weak will.
... Please, people who know absolutely nothing about medecine, educate yourself before writing comments. Alcoholism much like obesity has a genetic predisposition. Most of the people who actually carry those predispositions will never become alcoholics, but the few who are exposed to the a specific environnement (wich is often indepedent of the patient) "walk down" the path of alcoholism. And then there is no turning back.. While there are certain genetic factors which might make you enjoy alcohol consumption more (by a small amount) etc, there is no actual "alcoholism gene". There is no predictor for alcoholism which you can test for. Just because you might enjoy alcohol slightly more than someone else, or might have a slightly harder time stopping doesn't not mean it is a disease which you cannot control with willpower alone. It's great that there are genetic factors that can affect your likelihood of abusing alcohol and that there are environmental factors and traumas which do the same, but at the end of the day... You are not destined to become an alcoholic. There are still a series of choices that lead up to you becoming an alcoholic. You can also stop abusing alcohol by making a choice to do so. Compare this to Huntington's. No matter what choices you make in life, if you inherited the mutated gene, that's it. End of story. You will have Huntington's. You cannot choose not to have it. THAT is a disease. Btw, how can a patient's environment be independent of the patient? :p You view it the wrong way. It's not about enjoyment. It's about the neural circuits in your brain and the neurotransmitters involved. There are genes that make your brain naturally more predisposed to become addicted, not just to alcohol, but pretty much to anything with addiction potential. And yes, you can make a choice to not become an alcoholic, but once you already are an alcoholic, it requires a lot more than willpower to be able to stop. Also, abusive alcohol consumption is NOT the same as alcohol addiction, I have had an abusive alcohol consumption behaviour before, as in, I have had personal and social problems because of drinking. I have never had tolerance and/or abstinence symptoms, thus I'm not addicted. They are different medical concepts. Also, alcoholism is a psychiatric disease, it has risk factors, mortality and morbidity rates, complications, prognosis factors and treatments. Cigarette addiction also falls under this category. Just because there's a choice involved at some moment doesn't make it not a disease. There are also many genes involved in making a person predisposed to addictive behaviour. What you mean is the difference between a polygenic and a monogenic disease. Many people drink abusively and a LOT, not all of them become addicted, some even develop chronic liver disease without being addicted. Many people eat lots of unhealthy, sugar-heavy foods, yet not even the majority of them become diabetics or hypertensive. These are polygenic diseases, and as in all polygenic diseases, the phenotype is very dependant on the environment. Huntington's, in comparison, is a monogenic disease, and environment plays a very small to non existant role in it's pathogenesis. Doesn't make diabetes or hypertension not be diseases.
I actually meant alcoholism by "alcohol abuse". My bad.
I probably shouldn't have worded the "enjoyment" part that way either. I was referring to all genetic factors that play a role in alcohol addiction. None of these factors will definitely lead to alcoholism. And once you are an alcoholic, these factors won't prevent you from stopping drinking. They might inhibit, but that's it..
I still don't agree that it's a disease. You mention that environmental factors (effectively choices) are risk factors in developing diabetes and that's comparable to alcoholism. It's not. Once you develop diabetes you cannot cure it by sheer willpower. You can stop drinking on your own accord. Yes it might be extremely difficult, but it's not impossible to cure without medicine. Medical aid can be sought to make the process easier, but there are certainly people who have overcome alcoholism by sheer willpower alone. This is why I think it should not be called a disease at all.
The fact that there are statistics for a group designated "Alcoholics" certainly does not play a factor in making it a disease or not. You could just as easily compile statistics about sex and say, "Also, sexual intercourse is a psychiatric disease, it has risk factors, mortality and morbidity rates, complications, prognosis factors and treatments."
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lucidity you are so ignorant
"stop drinking" =/= "cure alcoholism"
i know people with 20 years sobriety that CRAVE alcohol with every passing minute. the cessation of the drinking did not by any means of the word, "cure" them
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I think those of you discussing if it is a disease or not should probably start out by defining what a disease actually is...
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I believe you are exaggerating.
While cravings might never disappear fully, they should become less and ultimately, if you can overcome the craving I can't accept it as being a disease. Think about how you're defining a disease. "A craving for something".
I'm not disputing that addiction exists and that it's terrible. But it's not a disease.
On July 17 2011 03:57 Ghostcom wrote:
I think those of you discussing if it is a disease or not should probably start out by defining what a disease actually is...
Probably. I guess some people will just call it a disease and perhaps in a very broad sense of the word it can be considered as a behavioural disease (if you want to consider addiction a disease). But as soon as it's called a disease there's this sense that the poor "carriers" of the disease are powerless over it. This isn't true. No matter how difficult, at the end of the day an alcoholic can overcome his "disease" by choices/willpower... Cravings do not constitute a disease and if it is not causing complications (whether social/medical) it really shouldn't be called a disease... The physiological dependency should disappear with time if you sober up. After that, any craving can be dealt with with willpower.
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On July 17 2011 03:25 Ryan307  wrote:Unless you've actually experienced addiction yourself, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I completely understand how from an outside perspective it seems as if people have no will power, and the idea of it being a disease sounds silly. Once you've actually experienced it it's completely different. I would label addiction as more of a disorder than a disease. It's called a disease because it's progressive, but I guess disorders can be progressive too. To reiterate my point, unless you have actually experienced addiction you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The mindset of being in active addiction is absolutely beyond words, and anyone who chalks this up to a lack of willpower is completely ignorant.
Of course it's a lack of will power. You are doing something to your OWN body that you KNOW destroys it but you continue to do it anyway. Regardless of any physical, genetic or psychological reason for rationalizing your choice to continue doing it, it is still a choice. I could lock a chain smoker in a room and feed him food and water and he will survive. The reason why he chooses not to quit smoking is a lack of will.
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I've updated the OP with a series of question/answer. If anyone has other questions, or disagrees with the answers I provided, feel free to let me know.
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On July 17 2011 04:01 Lucidity wrote:I believe you are exaggerating. While cravings might never disappear fully, they should become less and ultimately, if you can overcome the craving I can't accept it as being a disease. Think about how you're defining a disease. "A craving for something". I'm not disputing that addiction exists and that it's terrible. But it's not a disease. Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 03:57 Ghostcom wrote:
I think those of you discussing if it is a disease or not should probably start out by defining what a disease actually is... Probably. I guess some people will just call it a disease and perhaps in a very broad sense of the word it can be considered as a behavioural disease (if you want to consider addiction a disease). But as soon as it's called a disease there's this sense that the poor "carriers" of the disease are powerless over it. This isn't true. No matter how difficult, at the end of the day an alcoholic can overcome his "disease" by choices/willpower... Cravings do not constitute a disease and if it is not causing complications (whether social/medical) it really shouldn't be called a disease... The physiological dependency should disappear with time if you sober up. After that, any craving can be dealt with with willpower.
There are stuff like delirium tremens which actually means that no, an alcoholic can't by sheer willpower stop drinking. It isn't all alcoholics who get so severe withdrawal symptoms, but then again it isn't all urinary tract infections or pneumonias that needs antibiotics to be cured. Yet I hope you won't go as far as to claim that a pneumonia isn't a disease?
I really think you should post your definition of disease because I'm getting the notion that yours is way to narrow to be reasonable...
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Alternate cure: stop drinking alcohol.
Side-effects: none
Costs: free
^ Awesome post.
The only reason you people think the "disease" or "Addiction" is with you the rest of your life because you constantly reinforce that terrible frame of mind. Bring me 2 people both with equal drug or alcohol addictions. Have person A repeat " I have a disease and I am an Alcoholic " for 10 years daily, and person B repeat " Alcohol is not a disease and I can heal from this" for the same time period ... guess who at the end of 10 years is healthier ... happier ... more confident ... more self controlled ... etc. Stop reinforcing this non-sense. And to even hint that alcohol is more addictive then heroin, meth, or cocaine is hilarious also. just stop.
Alternate cure: stop drinking alcohol.
Side-effects: none
Costs: free
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On July 17 2011 04:09 Jonas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 03:25 Ryan307 wrote:Unless you've actually experienced addiction yourself, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I completely understand how from an outside perspective it seems as if people have no will power, and the idea of it being a disease sounds silly. Once you've actually experienced it it's completely different. I would label addiction as more of a disorder than a disease. It's called a disease because it's progressive, but I guess disorders can be progressive too. To reiterate my point, unless you have actually experienced addiction you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The mindset of being in active addiction is absolutely beyond words, and anyone who chalks this up to a lack of willpower is completely ignorant. Of course it's a lack of will power. You are doing something to your OWN body that you KNOW destroys it but you continue to do it anyway. Regardless of any physical, genetic or psychological reason for rationalizing your choice to continue doing it, it is still a choice. I could lock a chain smoker in a room and feed him food and water and he will survive. The reason why he chooses not to quit smoking is a lack of will.
You make is sound like people that are not able to quit smoking or drinking don't actually want to. I guess you've never known a alcoholic in your life.
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On July 17 2011 04:31 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 04:09 Jonas wrote:On July 17 2011 03:25 Ryan307 wrote:Unless you've actually experienced addiction yourself, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I completely understand how from an outside perspective it seems as if people have no will power, and the idea of it being a disease sounds silly. Once you've actually experienced it it's completely different. I would label addiction as more of a disorder than a disease. It's called a disease because it's progressive, but I guess disorders can be progressive too. To reiterate my point, unless you have actually experienced addiction you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The mindset of being in active addiction is absolutely beyond words, and anyone who chalks this up to a lack of willpower is completely ignorant. Of course it's a lack of will power. You are doing something to your OWN body that you KNOW destroys it but you continue to do it anyway. Regardless of any physical, genetic or psychological reason for rationalizing your choice to continue doing it, it is still a choice. I could lock a chain smoker in a room and feed him food and water and he will survive. The reason why he chooses not to quit smoking is a lack of will. You make is sound like people that are not able to quit smoking or drinking don't actually want to. I guess you've never known a alcoholic in your life.
My grandpa was an alcoholic and it almost tore my mom's side of the family apart.
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Anyone else find it concerning how much standards in modern medicine have dropped?
Nowadays, they say "cured" when they really are just replacing one drug with another. Alcohol might be unhealthier and Baclofen healther, but the fundamental problem is still there.
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On July 17 2011 03:42 rlordisme wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 02:52 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Though, with you on the infusion pump, the dosage is much lower. Orally administered does a heavy spike & drop. Alcohol (or any medication that works on the same functions) would be massively increased in effect, which is the real danger with GABA agonists. Though, for you, since you're on the infusion, odds are your GABAergic activity is so much lower, the dosage of alcohol required would be far different than someone is a generally functional GABAergic system.
And having "withdrawal" symptoms isn't a line of addiction, it's just a sign of being in a homeostatic state with the drug. If you crave the drug after it's left your body, THEN it's addiction. Yeah that is pretty much all true. I'm on the pump because the side effects that oral Baclofen (drowsiness, mental slowness) has are non-existent with the pump because the dose is so much lower (200 micrograms/day). I have certainly never craved Baclofen. I'm a little slow this morning (hangover), so I didn't really think about it. And, if you don't mind me asking, how do you know so much about Baclofen and infusion pumps?
Have spastic quadriplegia by a really strange set of circumstances. Had to do a whole lot of research on the GABA agonists, as that was the next set of possible treatments. Got a bit lucky and didn't need to go further with them, but had to do a *whole* lot of reading on them. They're wonderful medications that carry a lot of side issues, so need to know what's up.
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On July 17 2011 04:27 Ghostcom wrote:
There are stuff like delirium tremens which actually means that no, an alcoholic can't by sheer willpower stop drinking. It isn't all alcoholics who get so severe withdrawal symptoms, but then again it isn't all urinary tract infections or pneumonias that needs antibiotics to be cured. Yet I hope you won't go as far as to claim that a pneumonia isn't a disease?
I really think you should post your definition of disease because I'm getting the notion that yours is way to narrow to be reasonable...
Withdrawal symptoms may require medical attention. This does not make alcoholism a disease. The choice to stop drinking needs to be made first. After any withdrawal symptoms subside you need to make the choice not to drink again. There is no physiological dependency left. After that it's all about willpower. Many alcoholics will relapse. This is NOT because of delirium tremens -.-
Pneumonia is quite obviously a disease. It cannot be overcome by willpower.
I guess if you believe addiction is a disease, then so be it.
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On July 17 2011 04:01 Lucidity wrote:
While cravings might never disappear fully, they should become less and ultimately, if you can overcome the craving I can't accept it as being a disease. Think about how you're defining a disease. "A craving for something".
let's oversimplify some more please
MIT is just a school
the president of the USA is just a job
hitler was just a bad guy who wasn't fond of jews
to narrow down alcoholism to just "a craving" is just so ignorant. do you remember when you were a kid (probably not that hard since i doubt you're much older than 16) and you wanted that <bike, super nintendo, bb gun, train set> so badly that it's all you could think about? and as christmas got nearer and nearer it just consumed your mind? you always wanted to know where the present was hidden, wanted to open it early to see if you got it, couldn't wait to take it out and play with it? alcoholics feel the same "craving" day in and day out. it's always something present in the back of their mind. even if they're having sex, busy at work, exhausted from working out, or playing starcraft, somewhere in their mind there is a little buzz going "boy a drink would sure feel great right now." having to fight that day in and day out is too much for people
that feeling is HARDWIRED into their brains. it's not something that goes away like "hey i really need to pee" and once you pee you don't need to pee any more. once you have that first drink your mind goes "well hey that wasn't so bad was it? let's drink another!" and no matter what you do, that will always be your mindset. i know plenty of people who have quit drinking for years and still feel that insatiable desire
now, imagine AFTER you finally got your hands on that christmas present, it wasn't enough. the next day you wanted another bike. the all-encompassing desire filled your brain again. every day you felt the anxiety of wanting to open another gift and get another bike. that is a DISEASE. you can try to stop thinking about the bike but in the back of your head you always want to ride it.
so if there is a pill that can actually suppress the desire to drink, i'm all for it. even for "recovered alcoholics" this would be a life-saving pill
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On July 17 2011 04:35 Traeon wrote:
Anyone else find it concerning how much standards in modern medicine have dropped?
Nowadays, they say "cured" when they really are just replacing one drug with another. Alcohol might be unhealthier and Baclofen healther, but the fundamental problem is still there.
According to your standards, there is no cure for diseases like diabetes, which require endless insulin injections.
The fundamental problem, as you put it, is not that they are consuming a substance. The problem is that certain substances, when consumed, produce serious health, behavioral, and social consequences. Eliminate those problems, and you eliminate the disease.
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On July 17 2011 04:35 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Have spastic quadriplegia by a really strange set of circumstances. Had to do a whole lot of research on the GABA agonists, as that was the next set of possible treatments. Got a bit lucky and didn't need to go further with them, but had to do a *whole* lot of reading on them. They're wonderful medications that carry a lot of side issues, so need to know what's up.
Wow, I had a spinal cord injury myself. I was pretty lucky though and mostly recovered. I can walk (limp) and stuff, but I still have spasticity that causes some muscle problems and some specific areas with limited neurological activity.
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