EPTA Cure for Alcoholism? - Page 7
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Neeh
Norway458 Posts
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Lucidity
South Africa603 Posts
On July 16 2011 23:30 beachbeachy wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism. Alcoholism shouldn't even be a term, because it's 100% synonymous with drug addiction (considering alcohol is a drug). Addicts will abuse anything they can get. No. Just no. From personal anecdotal evidence this is not the case at all. Do you have some proper studies that suggest otherwise? Where people start abusing the drug prescribed to treat their alcoholism? I'm not saying there aren't people with "addictive personalities", but that is a completely different thing to what we're discussing. I would think that the millions of smokers would give you a hint that addiction to one substance does not automatically imply addiction to ALL drugs. Imagine not being able to prescribe drugs to smokers. On July 16 2011 23:54 Toadesstern wrote: Still it may be a chance for many people. I think there's a LOT of people here just ignoring that (possible) chance, because they think those people should be able to handle their problems alone or maybe because they think it's their own fault, cause noone forced them to start drinking. On top of that it's not a cure, if it has to be taken for the rest of their lifes. But still, it's the same way with several diseases. Cancer, aids, several mental diseases require you to take drugs for the rest of your life, some treatments may cure you, some may have to be done for the rest of your life. Still noone comes along and says it's just a replacement, or it's not a cure, it just weakens impacts of the disease. As many said before, only very few got the background information to really judge this right and I sure don't as well, but I don't see the point of just downright ignoring it or saying you should not do that out of ignorance because you think it's not a disease or they'd be able to deal with it alone. I completely agree with you. I just don't think it has to be termed a "disease" in order for drugs to be prescribed. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
Hope this drug helps people with their addiction. | ||
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Equity213
Canada873 Posts
Im not judging because I have my addictions too, I just dont like it when people abjegate theiir personal responsibility. Im responsible for my addictions, not some disease. But to the OP, this sounds really cool. It makes me think of ibogaine for heroin users. Cant wait to see more studies on this stuff. | ||
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Dranak
United States464 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:57 Taf the Ghost wrote: Oh, and any alcohol while on Baclofen could outright kill you. So there's that worry as well. Do you have a source for this claim? I'm not any mention of it in my quick check, only the standard "may cause increased sedation" that applies to most everything that causes a degree of sedation. | ||
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Kezzer
United States1268 Posts
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On July 17 2011 00:30 Equity213 wrote: I get real tired of this 'alcoholism is a disease' crap. Im addicted to cigarettes, can we call that a disease? I drink to much coffee, maybe I have a disease. Yeah its a disease called a weak will. Im not judging because I have my addictions too, I just dont like it when people abjegate theiir personal responsibility. Im responsible for my addictions, not some disease. But to the OP, this sounds really cool. It makes me think of ibogaine for heroin users. Cant wait to see more studies on this stuff. WOW. You, sir, win the Mr. Ignorant award for today. It's cool that you're an armchair expert in the realm of opinion and whatnot, but there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. | ||
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rlordisme
United States11 Posts
On July 16 2011 20:57 Taf the Ghost wrote: While Baclofen isn't "addictive", don't think for a second it's a terribly safe drug to come off of. Baclofen is a very dangerous drug to stop using. All of the GABA(beta) agonists are. So while it's nice that it could help for ending alcoholism, don't think it's without it's serious risks. And that it can work for an alcoholic shouldn't be a surprise. Ethanol is a selective GABA (a)(b)(c) agonist, which is the reason why a person, when drunk, is so limber. Their muscles are really, really relaxed. Oh, and any alcohol while on Baclofen could outright kill you. So there's that worry as well. Baclofen is addictive. I get withdrawal if I stop using it too quickly. It can be dangerous to come off of it if you do it wrong, luckily I don't have to worry about that because I have a pump instead of taking it orally, which means only my doctor can change the dosing. Even then, my dose isn't high enough for it to be a serious concern. I have come off of it cold turkey and my withdrawal symptoms were pretty mild but that isn't necessarily true for everyone. Oh, and I drink all the time, I don't know where you got the idea that Baclofen plus alcohol could kill you (besides maybe overdosing, but that is true of any drug). | ||
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
I get real tired of this 'alcoholism is a disease' crap. Im addicted to cigarettes, can we call that a disease? I drink to much coffee, maybe I have a disease. Yeah its a disease called a weak will. ... Please, people who know absolutely nothing about medecine, educate yourself before writing comments. Alcoholism much like obesity has a genetic predisposition. Most of the people who actually carry those predispositions will never become alcoholics, but the few who are exposed to the a specific environnement (wich is often indepedent of the patient) "walk down" the path of alcoholism. And then there is no turning back. I compare alcoholism to obesity because that disease is also to frequently regarded as a "weak will" problem. To people who are not obese, it seems impossible to stay that fat when it would be so easy to just get off the couch and run like the wind, or just eat 1500kcal instead of 2500. But it is not, your body reacts heavily to the change you try to put it through, just like it is hard to stop having sex or reduce drastically the number of hours you sleep. Of course you can say that getting fat, or start drinking (sometimes knowing that you are predisposed to become addicted) is a proof of a weak will. But we are all very influenced by our environnement, especially the one we grew up in, to the point where the "choices" we make are just mere consequences of the thing we saw or lived through. As for the people who stopped drinking on willpower alone, they are not cured, they are actually "less" cured than those taking baclofen since their craving is still there. That fact has introduced a debate on the interest of treating alcoholics regardless of their ability to suppress their urge. Baclofen is addictive. I get withdrawal if I stop using it too quickly. It is physically addictive but not mentally addictive which is what people are most concerned about. Of course, for that reason, the patient needs to be very compliant before you prescribe the drug. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
On July 17 2011 01:40 Diavlo wrote: As for the people who stopped drinking on willpower alone, they are not cured, they are actually "less" cured than those taking baclofen since their craving is still there. That fact has introduced a debate on the interest of treating alcoholics regardless of their ability to suppress their urge. It is physically addictive but not mentally addictive which is what people are most concerned about. Of course, for that reason, the patient needs to be very compliant before you prescribe the drug. So ... the people who overcome the alcoholism with will power arent cured? How comes that? Your brain must evolve back over time to a state where you can live without it or not? I have no degree in medicine nor biology but interest in psychology. And isnt supressing urges the most normal thing which a human being should learn? For me it sounds just as a "fast implemented fix" instead of dealin with the problem :/ And if u still statisfy the brain with the "drug"(receptors whatever) isnt that a problem? I mean several ppl said that your brain changes because of the drug, so you more orl ess want it to change back? Or will this "medicine" be used while the patient will have a therapy? | ||
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Jonas :)
United States511 Posts
On July 17 2011 01:40 Diavlo wrote: ... Please, people who know absolutely nothing about medecine, educate yourself before writing comments. Alcoholism much like obesity has a genetic predisposition. Most of the people who actually carry those predispositions will never become alcoholics, but the few who are exposed to the a specific environnement (wich is often indepedent of the patient) "walk down" the path of alcoholism. And then there is no turning back. I compare alcoholism to obesity because that disease is also to frequently regarded as a "weak will" problem. To people who are not obese, it seems impossible to stay that fat when it would be so easy to just get off the couch and run like the wind, or just eat 1500kcal instead of 2500. But it is not, your body reacts heavily to the change you try to put it through, just like it is hard to stop having sex or reduce drastically the number of hours you sleep. Of course you can say that getting fat, or start drinking (sometimes knowing that you are predisposed to become addicted) is a proof of a weak will. But we are all very influenced by our environnement, especially the one we grew up in, to the point where the "choices" we make are just mere consequences of the thing we saw or lived through. As for the people who stopped drinking on willpower alone, they are not cured, they are actually "less" cured than those taking baclofen since their craving is still there. That fact has introduced a debate on the interest of treating alcoholics regardless of their ability to suppress their urge. It is physically addictive but not mentally addictive which is what people are most concerned about. Of course, for that reason, the patient needs to be very compliant before you prescribe the drug. I was going to make an argument, but this website explains everything better than I could in any reasonable amount of time. Although only focused on obesity, the arguments used on the website and the advice on the second page can also be applied to alcoholism (which, to your point, they are quite similar). http://www.yourefatbecauseyourestupid.com/ | ||
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brain_
United States812 Posts
On July 16 2011 10:25 Mordoc wrote: O.o Seems cool if it continues to work, but I, personally, would be very wary of trying anything like 300mgs a day (or the drug at all) unless I were a dead end alcoholic with money to spend (which I am not) (and I assume this drug is fairly expensive). Since it is off-patent it probably isn't expensive. On July 16 2011 10:29 R0YAL wrote: It seems silly to me that you can say "cure for alcoholism," its not like alcoholism is a diagnosis. Its just people who cant control their drinking habits. Interesting nonetheless. By "alcoholism" they mean the body's (acquired) chemical dependency on alcohol. Once you get hooked enough, your body uses cravings to demand that you ingest alcohol, otherwise you can't metabolize some things properly. Similar to heroine - you feel sick if you can't get your fix. It ceases to become psychological and becomes a physical addiction- this drug claims to alleviate the physical end of it. The purpose of this drug is to help people who want to quit, but every time they try are overcome by the physical end of addiction. While theoretically it is possible to overcome this through sheer willpower, the results are pretty horrific. Ever heard stories of junkies handcuffing themselves to radiators because they know that within a few days the pain of withdrawal will be so great that they'd do anything to get a fix? Its true. Same thing applies for alcohol, and while the withdrawal affects are usually less pronounced, the substance is much easier to acquire - and far more socially acceptable. On July 16 2011 10:27 raja91 wrote: You have to be pretty stupid to start abusing alcohol in the first place. As a college student I find this statement pretty hilarious. Extreme overconsumption of alcohol is not only commonplace, it is celebrated. Anyone with a predisposition for addiction or substance abuse could easily find themselves with a dependency on a destructive habit before they realized it was anything other than normal college life. Nobody will tell you "hey man, maybe you shouldn't drink so much". You're far more likely to hear "CHUG! CHUG! CHUG!" Our society is pretty cruel to people who have a predisposition for alcoholism - be it a personality trait, a genetic trait (as is likely), or what have you. Society drenches itself in alcohol to a point where not drinking is considered a significant sacrifice, and also unsympathetically denounces the people who can't handle alcohol. All the while other drugs, specifically marijuana, which are no more harmful than alcohol, are demonized, and its users prosecuted. Human hypocrisy and hubris continues to amaze me. | ||
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Lucidity
South Africa603 Posts
On July 17 2011 01:14 FallDownMarigold wrote: WOW. You, sir, win the Mr. Ignorant award for today. It's cool that you're an armchair expert in the realm of opinion and whatnot, but there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. And there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. As far as I'm aware, alcoholism as a disease was commonly accepted in the past. The more recent trend is to move away from calling it a disease. On July 17 2011 01:40 Diavlo wrote: ... Please, people who know absolutely nothing about medecine, educate yourself before writing comments. Alcoholism much like obesity has a genetic predisposition. Most of the people who actually carry those predispositions will never become alcoholics, but the few who are exposed to the a specific environnement (wich is often indepedent of the patient) "walk down" the path of alcoholism. And then there is no turning back.. While there are certain genetic factors which might make you enjoy alcohol consumption more (by a small amount) etc, there is no actual "alcoholism gene". There is no predictor for alcoholism which you can test for. Just because you might enjoy alcohol slightly more than someone else, or might have a slightly harder time stopping doesn't not mean it is a disease which you cannot control with willpower alone. It's great that there are genetic factors that can affect your likelihood of abusing alcohol and that there are environmental factors and traumas which do the same, but at the end of the day... You are not destined to become an alcoholic. There are still a series of choices that lead up to you becoming an alcoholic. You can also stop abusing alcohol by making a choice to do so. Compare this to Huntington's. No matter what choices you make in life, if you inherited the mutated gene, that's it. End of story. You will have Huntington's. You cannot choose not to have it. THAT is a disease. Btw, how can a patient's environment be independent of the patient? :p | ||
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beachbeachy
United States509 Posts
On July 17 2011 00:22 Lucidity wrote: No. Just no. From personal anecdotal evidence this is not the case at all. Do you have some proper studies that suggest otherwise? Where people start abusing the drug prescribed to treat their alcoholism? I'm not saying there aren't people with "addictive personalities", but that is a completely different thing to what we're discussing. I would think that the millions of smokers would give you a hint that addiction to one substance does not automatically imply addiction to ALL drugs. Imagine not being able to prescribe drugs to smokers. I completely agree with you. I just don't think it has to be termed a "disease" in order for drugs to be prescribed. The key thing to understand is cigarettes aren't narcotics. Any mind altering substance is applicable to the addict. You can't compare other addictions like smoking or excessive gaming and whatnot to substance abuse. | ||
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brain_
United States812 Posts
On July 17 2011 02:40 beachbeachy wrote: The key thing to understand is cigarettes aren't narcotics. Any mind altering substance is applicable to the addict. You can't compare other addictions like smoking or excessive gaming and whatnot to substance abuse. Smoking is a totally valid comparison. Smoking has a mild psychoactive effect (soothing, etc) but, more importantly, it leads to the ingestion of nicotine. Nicotine is extremely addictive and has long-term addictive physiological effects. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On July 17 2011 02:34 Lucidity wrote: And there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. As far as I'm aware, alcoholism as a disease was commonly accepted in the past. The more recent trend is to move away from calling it a disease. While there are certain genetic factors which might make you enjoy alcohol consumption more (by a small amount) etc, there is no actual "alcoholism gene". There is no predictor for alcoholism which you can test for. Just because you might enjoy alcohol slightly more than someone else, or might have a slightly harder time stopping doesn't not mean it is a disease which you cannot control with willpower alone. It's great that there are genetic factors that can affect your likelihood of abusing alcohol and that there are environmental factors and traumas which do the same, but at the end of the day... You are not destined to become an alcoholic. There are still a series of choices that lead up to you becoming an alcoholic. You can also stop abusing alcohol by making a choice to do so. Compare this to Huntington's. No matter what choices you make in life, if you inherited the mutated gene, that's it. End of story. You will have Huntington's. You cannot choose not to have it. THAT is a disease. Btw, how can a patient's environment be independent of the patient? :p You view it the wrong way. It's not about enjoyment. It's about the neural circuits in your brain and the neurotransmitters involved. There are genes that make your brain naturally more predisposed to become addicted, not just to alcohol, but pretty much to anything with addiction potential. And yes, you can make a choice to not become an alcoholic, but once you already are an alcoholic, it requires a lot more than willpower to be able to stop. Also, abusive alcohol consumption is NOT the same as alcohol addiction, I have had an abusive alcohol consumption behaviour before, as in, I have had personal and social problems because of drinking. I have never had tolerance and/or abstinence symptoms, thus I'm not addicted. They are different medical concepts. Also, alcoholism is a psychiatric disease, it has risk factors, mortality and morbidity rates, complications, prognosis factors and treatments. Cigarette addiction also falls under this category. Just because there's a choice involved at some moment doesn't make it not a disease. There are also many genes involved in making a person predisposed to addictive behaviour. What you mean is the difference between a polygenic and a monogenic disease. Many people drink abusively and a LOT, not all of them become addicted, some even develop chronic liver disease without being addicted. Many people eat lots of unhealthy, sugar-heavy foods, yet not even the majority of them become diabetics or hypertensive. These are polygenic diseases, and as in all polygenic diseases, the phenotype is very dependant on the environment. Huntington's, in comparison, is a monogenic disease, and environment plays a very small to non existant role in it's pathogenesis. Doesn't make diabetes or hypertension not be diseases. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On July 17 2011 01:40 rlordisme wrote: Baclofen is addictive. I get withdrawal if I stop using it too quickly. It can be dangerous to come off of it if you do it wrong, luckily I don't have to worry about that because I have a pump instead of taking it orally, which means only my doctor can change the dosing. Even then, my dose isn't high enough for it to be a serious concern. I have come off of it cold turkey and my withdrawal symptoms were pretty mild but that isn't necessarily true for everyone. Oh, and I drink all the time, I don't know where you got the idea that Baclofen plus alcohol could kill you (besides maybe overdosing, but that is true of any drug). Yeah, I wasn't as careful with that statement as I should have been. I'll go back and change it. "And going back to drinking like an alcoholic cares severe risk, up to making you dead." What I meant but made it too general. Though, with you on the infusion pump, the dosage is much lower. Orally administered does a heavy spike & drop. Alcohol (or any medication that works on the same functions) would be massively increased in effect, which is the real danger with GABA agonists. Though, for you, since you're on the infusion, odds are your GABAergic activity is so much lower, the dosage of alcohol required would be far different than someone is a generally functional GABAergic system. And having "withdrawal" symptoms isn't a line of addiction, it's just a sign of being in a homeostatic state with the drug. If you crave the drug after it's left your body, THEN it's addiction. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
In america, pharmacy companies only want money they really don't care about the health of the country and will probably do all that they can to put a stranglehold on this drug. If the drug is dangerous, it might just end up being something only doctors can handle in hospitals. | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
It is non-addictive Stopped reading there. As an addict and person passionate about psychology and neurology i can tell there is no such thing unless we are talking about physical addiction, like with heroine. | ||
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
So ... the people who overcome the alcoholism with will power arent cured? How comes that? Your brain must evolve back over time to a state where you can live without it or not? Unfortunately the brain is not that simple. Some changes can be reversed (due to the modification of receptor expression in the neurons...) but a lot can't (lost neurons aren't replaced, some neural connections cannot be severed...). And isnt supressing urges the most normal thing which a human being should learn? You are right, we all have to deal with a lot of urges that conflict with what is expected of us to live in a society. But drug addiction is on an all other level than lets say: not punch the guy who insulted you. In the worst cases, it defines absolutely every thing in your life. There are drug addicts that spend their day either looking for drugs or taking drugs. And if u still statisfy the brain with the "drug"(receptors whatever) isnt that a problem? It is a problem, but less than doing nothing. While there are certain genetic factors which might make you enjoy alcohol consumption more (by a small amount) etc, there is no actual "alcoholism gene". There is no predictor for alcoholism which you can test for. Just because you might enjoy alcohol slightly more than someone else, or might have a slightly harder time stopping doesn't not mean it is a disease which you cannot control with willpower alone. It's great that there are genetic factors that can affect your likelihood of abusing alcohol and that there are environmental factors and traumas which do the same, but at the end of the day... You are not destined to become an alcoholic. There are still a series of choices that lead up to you becoming an alcoholic. Did you read the my last paragraph? You can also stop abusing alcohol by making a choice to do so. Yes you can, doesn't mean that you are "cured". Compare this to Huntington's. No matter what choices you make in life, if you inherited the mutated gene, that's it. End of story. You will have Huntington's. You cannot choose not to have it. THAT is a disease. That's just your definition of a disease. By that definition type 2 diabetes is not a disease either... Btw, how can a patient's environment be independent of the patient? I meant independent of the choices of the patient. You don't choose the environment you grow up in... | ||
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