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On July 17 2011 05:27 Jonas  wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 05:18 Ryan307 wrote:On July 17 2011 04:09 Jonas wrote:On July 17 2011 03:25 Ryan307 wrote:Unless you've actually experienced addiction yourself, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I completely understand how from an outside perspective it seems as if people have no will power, and the idea of it being a disease sounds silly. Once you've actually experienced it it's completely different. I would label addiction as more of a disorder than a disease. It's called a disease because it's progressive, but I guess disorders can be progressive too. To reiterate my point, unless you have actually experienced addiction you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. The mindset of being in active addiction is absolutely beyond words, and anyone who chalks this up to a lack of willpower is completely ignorant. Of course it's a lack of will power. You are doing something to your OWN body that you KNOW destroys it but you continue to do it anyway. Regardless of any physical, genetic or psychological reason for rationalizing your choice to continue doing it, it is still a choice. I could lock a chain smoker in a room and feed him food and water and he will survive. The reason why he chooses not to quit smoking is a lack of will. You are wrong, there was a point in my addiction where I was thoroughly convinced that using was my only option, my will power was directed AT using. It's like being in a thick psychosis. Do not talk about things that you do not understand. What were you addicted to, and for how long? And how did you end up stopping your abuse (assuming that you did stop)?
I was addicted to benzodiazapines (and alcohol) for roughly 5 years. During that time I went to 4 treatment centers and numerous psychologists. Ive been clean for almost 2.5 years but I still have a good amount of cravings. The fourth rehab finally took in conjunction with 12 step meetings and intense therapy. The only way I can describe addiction is like a thick, obsessive psychosis.
edit: formatting
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it doesn't necessarily "cure" alcoholism but taking these pills over drinking is a huge step, and a big bravo to whoever made it! it may be just replacing a drug with a drug, but this drug isn't unhealthy and destroying your body, relationships, and all the other jazz that comes with alcohol. i wish i could tell my dad about this <.<;
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I don't think many alcoholics would agree that they need to be "cured." That's the problem with addiction.
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On July 16 2011 10:26 SentinelSC2 wrote:
As long as you're depending on something else, can't really call it a cure.
But if it completely suppresses the urge for alcohol, one can assume over time that that urge for alcohol would gradually wane. That's what I'd imagine anyways. But I'm sure many struggling alcoholics would gladly take a pill in return for freedom from alcohol.
It wouldn't be any different from people who need to take pills in order to stave off a life threatening illness. I'm sure they don't mind taking a pill every so often in order to keep breathing lol.
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Science: 1, Self control: 0
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Sound promising. I hope they improve the formula on Naltrexone
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On July 17 2011 12:56 Stropheum wrote:
Science: 1, Self control: 0
Personally, I can't even understand what self-control or will is supposed to mean...
The way I see it, every single event that takes place in the universe is either caused, and therefore determined, or uncaused, and therefore arbitrary. I can't even imagine a possible alternative to determined/arbitrary, or caused/uncaused.
The idea of an event "self-causing" itself, or "willing" itself into existence sounds very unscientific, more like metaphysical voodoo or psychological astrology than anything else. Human action like everything else in the universe is caused by factors outside of our control, and therefore is determined. A person can't increase their own "self-control."
Kind of off-topic, but just wanted to offer my 2 cents on the matter. Until someone can explain how an event is neither caused or uncaused, I will reject these notions of "choosing" to be addicted or not.
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As somebody who just quit Adderal,I can say that there are no miracle drugs out there and that everything has side effects, even if you don't notice them while you are taking them. I wouldn't think of this as an end all cure to alcoholism. I honestly now believe that every substance, even those that are non addictive can be addictive in nature.
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On July 17 2011 13:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:Personally, I can't even understand what self-control or will is supposed to mean... The way I see it, every single event that takes place in the universe is either caused, and therefore determined, or uncaused, and therefore arbitrary. I can't even imagine a possible alternative to determined/arbitrary, or caused/uncaused. The idea of an event "self-causing" itself, or "willing" itself into existence sounds very unscientific, more like metaphysical voodoo or psychological astrology than anything else. Human action like everything else in the universe is caused by factors outside of our control, and therefore is determined. A person can't increase their own "self-control." Kind of off-topic, but just wanted to offer my 2 cents on the matter. Until someone can explain how an event is neither caused or uncaused, I will reject these notions of "choosing" to be addicted or not.
well quantum interactions are non-deterministic, for what its worth.
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Wow great news. If it has less and better side effects then alcohol i dont se why everyone hates it. It may not be a cure but its a better alternative.
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On July 17 2011 02:34 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 01:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 17 2011 00:30 Equity213 wrote:
I get real tired of this 'alcoholism is a disease' crap. Im addicted to cigarettes, can we call that a disease? I drink to much coffee, maybe I have a disease. Yeah its a disease called a weak will.
Im not judging because I have my addictions too, I just dont like it when people abjegate theiir personal responsibility. Im responsible for my addictions, not some disease.
But to the OP, this sounds really cool. It makes me think of ibogaine for heroin users. Cant wait to see more studies on this stuff. WOW. You, sir, win the Mr. Ignorant award for today. It's cool that you're an armchair expert in the realm of opinion and whatnot, but there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. And there are ACTUAL professionals out there with plenty of research and evidence to tell you otherwise. As far as I'm aware, alcoholism as a disease was commonly accepted in the past. The more recent trend is to move away from calling it a disease. Show nested quote +On July 17 2011 01:40 Diavlo wrote:
I get real tired of this 'alcoholism is a disease' crap. Im addicted to cigarettes, can we call that a disease? I drink to much coffee, maybe I have a disease. Yeah its a disease called a weak will.
... Please, people who know absolutely nothing about medecine, educate yourself before writing comments. Alcoholism much like obesity has a genetic predisposition. Most of the people who actually carry those predispositions will never become alcoholics, but the few who are exposed to the a specific environnement (wich is often indepedent of the patient) "walk down" the path of alcoholism. And then there is no turning back.. While there are certain genetic factors which might make you enjoy alcohol consumption more (by a small amount) etc, there is no actual "alcoholism gene". There is no predictor for alcoholism which you can test for. Just because you might enjoy alcohol slightly more than someone else, or might have a slightly harder time stopping doesn't not mean it is a disease which you cannot control with willpower alone. It's great that there are genetic factors that can affect your likelihood of abusing alcohol and that there are environmental factors and traumas which do the same, but at the end of the day... You are not destined to become an alcoholic. There are still a series of choices that lead up to you becoming an alcoholic. You can also stop abusing alcohol by making a choice to do so. Compare this to Huntington's. No matter what choices you make in life, if you inherited the mutated gene, that's it. End of story. You will have Huntington's. You cannot choose not to have it. THAT is a disease. Btw, how can a patient's environment be independent of the patient? :p
Semantics. Disease not in the sense of a genetic disorder (I of all people do not need a lecture on genetics or molecular biology), but in the sense that it isn't something one can simply "quit" with willpower alone. It's physically addictive. Arguing against the use of "disease" is just an irrelevant focus on words - the point is that it's a medical problem more serious than "lack of willpower".
Moreover, there are psychological implications as well. The entire situation affecting an individual is incredibly complex, and as such, it may be called a disease. You can rigidly define disease all you want, and then focus your efforts on debating the point of nomenclature all you want, if that's what is more important to you...
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On July 17 2011 12:56 Stropheum wrote:
Science: 1, Self control: 0
Wait, so helping people overcome a physical dependence and assert self control is, a loss for self control? Slavery is freedom?
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On July 16 2011 10:26 SentinelSC2 wrote:
As long as you're depending on something else, can't really call it a cure.
If you're able to operate a normal life instead of being an homeless/broke/otherwise screwed, would you care what it was called?
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It seems stupid to replace an addiction by creating a dependency for another substance. Unless it's Starcraft, of course.
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On July 22 2011 08:10 HunterX11 wrote:Wait, so helping people overcome a physical dependence and assert self control is, a loss for self control? Slavery is freedom?
In the US people don't normally find drug addicts victims but rather people lacking in character unable to control themselves in the first place and thus why they got addicted they simply could say no early on and make a proper decision is the sentiment, so even if there is more effective treatment the one that instills a sense of self is liked the most to the public.
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Interesting. My favorite part of the OP is Baclofen has no wrongs about it. That sure instills confidence when a drug is pitched like snake oil.
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Aaah a topic on the general forum with information in the OP, who would have thought?
As has been said, alcoholism is an addiction and drugs alone cannot solve the problem. However any new avenue of treatment of welcome. This certainly seems promising, especially that it is off patent.
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On July 22 2011 09:49 Probe1 wrote:
Interesting. My favorite part of the OP is Baclofen has no wrongs about it. That sure instills confidence when a drug is pitched like snake oil.
I did state that there are problems associated with sudden withdrawal, and also stated that it is currently an indefinite solution.
If you think there are any bad aspects of baclofen that I didn't mention please be sure to actually tell us what they are.
By the way, no one is "pitching" an off-patent drug. That hardly even makes sense. One of the biggest problems with baclofen is that because it is off patent, there isn't enough financial incentive for anyone to study the drug in further depth. Thankfully people are willing to donate their own money to study the drug.
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To all those "self control is easy" guys:
Self control is very, very hard and there are tons of circumstances where nobody would be able to control himself.
Lots of people are overweight, smoke, drink alcohol, spend to much time in front of the tv/computer, have depressions, eat unhealthy food, have unhealthy habbits, procastrinate etc
Most of them know that they could do better but and have an idea in their mind of a perfect lifestyle but most wont change a thing! Because its not that easy!
With dangerous drugs like alcohol its even harder! Once you are addicted it's very hard to get of and you are never cured. And lots of people who get addicted to alcohol are in very bad circumstances when they get addicted to alcohol (divorce, relative dies, financial problems, social problems, harrassment, etc).
Saying its just a matter of self control is as stupid as saying I would ressist torture because i know how to control myself (even the hardest of all men are at one point going to beg for their lifes and tell everything).
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EPT
