• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:24
CEST 08:24
KST 15:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy0uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event11Serral wins EWC 202548Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple5SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event Lambo Talks: The Future of SC2 and more... Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple
Tourneys
SEL Masters #5 - Korea vs Russia (SC Evo) Enki Epic Series #5 - TaeJa vs Classic (SC Evo) ByuN vs TaeJa Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Global Tourney for College Students in September RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups BW General Discussion ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking! BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September StarCon Philadelphia
Tourneys
KCM 2025 Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 574 users

Behavioural Modification Camps in the USA

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Normal
arcfyr
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada121 Posts
May 27 2011 20:09 GMT
#1
I read something that moved me quite deeply today off of reddit. Source follows, my reactions at the end. I did a quick search of recent closed threads and of the general discussion forum, and didn't come up with anything. Apologies in advance if this is something that should not be discussed here, I'm not trying to push one issue or another, just interested in hearing peoples' thoughts.

http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/hk0xy/a_gay_teen_describes_her_experience_at_a_utah/

Please keep in mind that this is a first-person retelling.


On May 10th of 2007 at around 2:30 in the morning two strangers barged into my bedroom. I started screaming and crying, as in my mind I was sure that these two strangers had broken into my house and were going to abduct me, rape me, kill me, or in some way harm me. They immediately told me that if I did not shut up that they would handcuff me. I was not being in any way violent or threatening. I was reacting in fear for my life by being vocal and hoping that someone would come to help. I had no idea what was going on. I stopped screaming, still in fear for my life. They started going through my closet digging out clothes as I was only in a night gown. They still had not explained what was going on. I asked, frightened, what the wanted from me, trying to see if I could in some way appease them and get them to leave. They then explained that they were going to take me to a school. It took me a second to understand what they meant by this, as this was an extremely bizarre way to introduce a child to a new school. It then occurred to me that this was what my mother had arranged for my brother several years ago when she had him shipped away to Cross Creek. The two strangers were from Teen Escort Service, a for-profit company that transports teenagers, usually by force, to WWASP (World Wide Association of Specialty Programs) facilities.

I was extremely upset and cried the entire trip, but I obeyed all of their orders. Even though I was being cooperative they said it was their policy to put a belt around the bust of the child and hold the belt so that there would be no chance of attempting to run. It was so humiliating to be led around like a fucking dog around the airport. It was also extremely uncomfortable to have this strange older male putting his hand so close to my breast. I never understood how any of this was legal but definitely knew that none of it was ethical. To this day I feel extremely angered, disturbed, and violated by this entire experience. In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.

From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman. During my stay I saw many others treated this way. I had never spoken to R., the program director, before and my first experience with him was horrible. He asked me why I was there, and I told him all of the things I’d done that I could think of that could possibly be perceived as “bad”. He yelled at me, saying that I was lying and that I didn’t love or care about my parents. I was shocked and confused, unsure of what I had done to deserve this treatment from someone I had just met. To this day, the only thing I can think of that I possibly could have left out was my attraction to other females. In one of the Parent-Child seminars we were made to attend, my mother shared with me that this was one of the biggest “issues” that caused her to send me to Cross Creek. Not the drugs, not the sex (she told me she had no knowledge of me being sexually active prior to being forced to disclose it to her), not the issues with school, but just the fact that there was a possibility that one day I might fall in love with a female. Sorry for not realizing what a horrible, broken child this made me, R.

Shortly after I arrived, my “HOPE buddy” (the student they assign to “mentor” you and teach you the rules in your first few weeks) started asking me about my past, why I was there, and what issues I needed to work on. I talked briefly about my experimentation with soft drugs, my issues with depression (something I’m pretty sure most teenagers experience), and the abusive relationship I had been in with my first girlfriend. As soon as I said the words “girl” and “relationship” in the same sentence she said “STOP! STOP! We can’t talk about that.” I was filled with shame regarding my sexuality simply from the fact that I was not even allowed to talk about homosexuality in any way shape or form. Shortly after this incident I started talking to the therapist they assigned me to there about this abusive relationship I had experienced, and how it bothered me that I was not allowed to talk about a part of me that I have no control over. His response was that I DID have a choice over whether or not I was attracted to females and that I should just deal with these thoughts of same sex attraction. His opinion was that this was probably a result of some anger I had toward men, particularly my dad and that I probably just wanted to be with females because they were “safer” (even though I had been with an abusive female before!!!) He also said that ultimately this was probably just a phase and a result of my crazy teenage hormones. He believed that if I tried hard enough and ignored these thoughts and feelings one day I might marry a nice boy.

I had no interest in having a relationship with anyone there, but when other girls formed relationships with each other, the repercussions were pretty extreme. I understood why it was not allowed, as relationships are generally distracting no matter the gender of either partner, but the way people were treated was pretty unnecessary in my opinion. It usually involved lots of yelling, ostracizing, and shaming. I remember one R. meeting where two girls were being confronted about this and R. was yelling about how stupid they were being and how no one would be able to trust them now. He went on to say that he had “nothing against homosexuality, but it was not the way God intended things.” and that the Bible definitely did not condone it. These “God” and bible references were used on a regular basis, along with religious videos, praying, etc. even though Cross Creek claimed that they were not in any way religious. The rule book and protocol also appeared to be directly based off of the Mormon religion (no caffeine etc.) The program reprimanded children for telling their parents about this religious influence and regularly tried to hide it from parents. I am in no way against people having their own beliefs and following what ever religion is right for them, however I think that it’s completely and totally immoral to lie to parents about what they are getting. More on this later.

The queer shaming was present in nearly every aspect of the program, including the language used. We were not allowed to use curse words such as “shit”, or “bitch”, but I never saw anyone reprimanded for saying “fag” or “faggot.” This fostered an environment in which teasing and bullying for all sorts of things were fully tolerated. I even remember a facilitator in a seminar trying to trigger a girl by calling her a “dyke.” And no, before you say something, I really don’t care about breaking confidentiality of seminars at this point because I am fed up. What these people said and did broke me down and created so much shame inside of me.

In addition to shaming people on basis of sexual orientation, they taught children that sex was evil and damaging outside of marriage, another blatantly religious notion. We were forced to regularly watch videos involving horror stories of abortions gone wrong, shown gruesome pictures of STDs that had been left unattended for long periods of time, and told that if we had sex before marriage we would likely die or get some horrible ailment. Rather than promoting safer sex methods, we were shown that abstinence was the only option that would not result in death or unwanted pregnancy.

Rigid gender roles were also a big part of the Cross Creek way of life. Many of the rules were extremely gender based. Boys were allowed to crack their backs and knuckles, though girls were not because it was “unladylike”. Boys got meal portions double the size of girls. Boys were allowed to use more curse words than girls were. The list goes on.

I remember when they moved the girls from Center 1 to Pro 1 (these are all names of the dorms we stayed in.) The boys had been living in Pro 1, and when they moved the girls in the dorms were extremely messy. Rather than having the boys come back and clean up this mess, they made the girls clean all day. This was completely, and totally humiliating. What a great way to build confidence and teach girls how to be independent and stand up for themselves.

Before I say this next part, I want to state that it is not my intention to bash all of the staff at Cross Creek. Some of the staff were very supportive (A.D., M.C., etc.) and this is not in any way meant to be directed at you, nor is it a blanket statement. There were staff however, that made me feel very unsafe and uncomfortable. Some of the staff, in my opinion, were downright cruel, hurtful and borderline (if not blatantly) abusive. I can’t tell you how many times I saw staff make comments about myself or others insinuating that we were bad children, unclean, impure, dirty, not innocent, untrustable, the list goes on. The grievance system that was in place was, in my opinion, ineffective on the whole. From being a part of the student government system for some time that handled grievances, I observed that grievance system, like everything else at Cross Creek, put the blame on the student and diverted responsibility away from the adult.

I’d also like to mention how many times I saw staff and administration, tackle and restrain children when it was completely unnecessary. So many times I saw kids simply refuse to go to gym class or get out of bed and as punishment they were violently tackled, restrained in a painful position, and taken to a small isolation room where they were usually watched by two or three staff members. This was also what they did when a child harmed themselves. This method is extremely violent, and I remember at least one incident that happened when I was there where they tackled a girl and restrained her face down against the ground and as a result she got rug burn on her face to the point that she was bleeding and had visible scabs on her face. Another time a girl shared that being tackled and restrained gave her flashbacks of a rape she’d experienced, to which the program director responded that he felt no remorse for it and that it was really her fault for doing what ever she’d done to be restrained. You could argue that this might be appropriate in cases where a kid is being violent towards others, but from what I saw, more often than not, this was absolutely not the case and the child being restrained was not being violent. In addition to tackling and restraint being (in my humble opinion) immoral, it is unsafe, and this has been proven. If you look on the website for the Coalition Against Institutionalized Child Abuse, you can see a long list of deaths that have occurred in “behavioral modification” facilities not unlike Cross Creek as a result of tackling and restraint. http://www.caica.org/RESTRAINTS Death List.htm

Cross Creek’s methods of “therapy” and recovery were also extremely invasive, humiliating, and in my opinion did much more harm than good. As someone who does intern work at a local rape treatment center and talks with victims of assault on a regular basis, as well as being someone who has survived various forms of violence and abuse, I have seen how damaging it can be to force someone to share about such delicate issues before they are fully prepared and ready. I can not speak for every one, but for me, being forced to disclose information that was not ready to come out was extremely painful and humiliating. The seminars based your success on how “emotional” you were, meaning that if you did not share some horrible part of your life or simply did not have one, or if you were not crying and sniveling while you did it, you were booted out of the seminar and forced to stay in the program another two months. The obsession the program had with “accountability” also led to them blaming people who had experienced abuse for their abusive situations. I vividly remember a facilitator yelling at a girl while kicking her out of a seminar for not participating or being “real” enough. She told her in an extremely vivid and foul language (the f-bomb included) that if she continued the behavior that got her to the program she would be raped again. She had the student write an essay on this.

I will forever be haunted by the day that I was in group and the program director barged in and started saying that it’s as if I have “ABUSE ME” written on my forehead, insinuating that I was just asking to be abused in some way by the way that I carried and presented myself. I carry so much shame from this comment, and because of it constantly have to remind myself not to blame myself for the abuse I have experienced.

The way that Cross Creek taught me to interact with people was to analyze every facial expression, action, and word, and reflect this back to them in a cold, harsh, and usually demeaning way. I feel so much remorse for the way I treated people at Cross Creek, as well as the way I allowed people to treat me. It took me a while after I graduated to discover that this method did not work at all in the real world, and that if I was to have any friends, I would need to drop the robotic, unempathetic, and borderline malicious way of interacting with others that I had learned to use for two and a half years. I’d like to sincerely apologize to those of you who spent time with me at Cross Creek that I treated this way. I feel nothing but sadness when I realize how heartless and programmed I became.

What disturbs me more than anything is that I believed all of the things I was told. When people use the word “brainwashing” to describe what went on at Cross Creek and other WWASP programs, I don’t think it is in any way exaggerating or being over dramatic when you consider all of the media we were FORCED to watch, read, and listen to. The program director used to joke about and downplay the brainwashing claims by saying that some of our brains “could really use some washing.” The “educational/emotional growth” videos we had to watch twice a day, the “motivational” tapes three times a day, the “self-help” books we were forced to read, and more than anything the “motivational seminars” with facilitators up in your face yelling about all the things you did wrong to mess up your life and land yourself in a program all contributed to this. With all of this influence coming at me from every direction at every moment I believed that following the rules, “working my program”, going to the seminars, etc. was genuinely going to improve my self esteem, my relationship with my parents, and the overall outcome of my life. I tried hard to follow the endless list of rules, be “accountable”, and when I got “dirty in my program” (another good example of shaming lingo and language that means you broke rules without giving yourself demerits) I would confess and take the consequences what ever consequences were involved.

I by no means had a perfect program, but I gave it all of my honest effort and did what I could to be a good Cross Creek student. By putting faith in this system however, I also internalized all of the stigma, shame, and religious beliefs forced upon me. I believed that maybe if I just suppressed my sexuality , as well as ignored my obvious attraction to girls, that maybe all of this would go away. My body and subconscious reacted to this. Shortly after arriving at Cross Creek, I stopped getting my period for about 8 months. This was apparently a common thing that happened in the program when girls first arrived, as the body was reacting to some serious stress. I also started wetting the bed shortly after arriving at the program. This had not been an issue for me since the age of 3 or 4. This bed wetting issue continued until I left the program. After I graduated, it stopped completely.

The program director and other administration on several occasions acknowledged that Tranquility Bay, another WWASP program that has now much to my relief been shut down, did indeed have an infamous history of reported abuse. He used this to say that we were so very “fortunate” to be in Cross Creek and not at programs like that. Yet kids who were “acting out too much” at Cross Creek were sent to Tranquility Bay as punishment. Some have said that Tranquility Bay was merely a “last resort” or that the things that happened at TB were just a “part of Jamaican culture” but I would have to strongly disagree about both of those things. Since when is abuse ever an appropriate option? It isn’t. No matter what someone has done, it’s not okay. It is also extremely racist and ethnocentric to say that abuse is just a part of the culture of Jamaica, especially when you look at American society, which I could very well say the same thing about.

Shortly after I left the program I was raped. I shared what happened with my mother, who then told me, like Cross Creek did, that it was my fault, I asked for it, and that I should have known it would happen. She then proceeded to share her own twisted version of the story with my Cross Creek therapist, who shared it with my group. I was mortified and my self-esteem was completely destroyed by this utter lack of confidentiality and complete betrayal of trust.

It has taken me so much time to recover and de-program myself from all of the lies I was fed at Cross Creek. It took me a while to realize just how badly and inappropriately I and others had been treated at this facility. It’s not to say that there were not a few small kernels of wisdom that I can still use from the program, but they came at such a huge cost. My soul feels wounded from the things I saw and experienced at Cross Creek and healing will be a continual process.

If there was one thing that I gained from my experience at Cross Creek, it was realizing that no one regardless of their past or current actions deserves to be treated the way this program and other WWASP facilities treated me and so many other students. Abuse is abuse, no matter how you slice it. This realization along with other life experiences is partially responsible for my current carreer path regarding abuse prevention and recovery, as well as my involvement and activism in the human rights movement.

Even if you choose not to believe me or anything that I have written, there are piles of evidence to support the idea that there is mistreatment at Cross Creek and other WWASP affiliated facilities. A little bit of research will reveal that this lawsuit is not the first that WWASP or Cross Creek has faced. My therapist used to use a phrase when he suspected that kids were “dirty in their program.” He used to say “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire...” That is certainly the case with WWASP and Cross Creek. There is a reason that the Coalition Against Institutionalized Child Abuse, Community Alliance for The Ethical Treatment of Youth, and many other organizations like them exist. There is a reason why seventeen WWASP affiliated schools have been shut down. There is a reason there have been so many lawsuits. Clearly if all of this has happened, I must not be completely insane.

The rebuttal against this argument has included that Cross Creek is no longer a part of WWASP. This argument is pretty much void seeing as they are still directly affiliated in that all of the WWASP affiliated programs still use the same seminars as each other, the same escort service, the same billing company, and are all still a part of Teen Help LLC, the marketing arm of WWASP and the entity that processes admissions paperwork. They also refer to each other and send children to other WWASP affiliated facilities when one facility can’t handle them. I don’t think it would be at all presumptuous to conclude that the people who ran WWASP are the same people who are still raking in all of the money with these programs.

WWASP officials claim that the organization itself is out of business, probably because of their infamous history of abuse, but clearly all of the WWASP programs are still affiliated and WWASP has not completely faded out. Many schools have changed their names multiple times, including Cross Creek (formerly Browning Academy) and it’s clear to me that there is a lot of shadiness and hiding goes on with in these programs. It seems as though WWASP and it’s affiliates are trying to sweep some things under the rug, and outright lie to parents, students, former students, and the general public.

Here’s a bit about the history of WWASP and Cross Creek. WWASP was founded by Robert Browning Lichfeild. He started Browning Academy, now Cross Creek, the first WWASP affiliated school in 1987, at a time when he had little money and was living in a small apartment with his wife and four children. His field of study was in business (he attained absolutely no credentials or education in psychology, therapy, or education) though he never graduated college and within several years he had become a very rich individual and had added many more schools to his chain of “behavior modification”/”tough love” schools. He was indeed mormon and has, in several interviews stated that God was his inspiration in starting these schools and one of his goals was to “get kids in touch with their higher source.” He is also a major contributor to the Republican party, donating thousands of dollars each year http://www.city-data.com/elec2/elec-LA-VERKIN-UT.html. From what I’ve read his massive sum of money and big political influence have gotten him and his colleagues out of the situations in which he and his criminal organization have been questioned. But please, do not take my word for it. Do your own research. This information is readily available to those who are willing to look.


------

I'd like for the discussion to be as civil as possible, under the circumstances. I was quite shocked when I read this and I was, quite frankly, appalled that these things happen legally in a modern nation. I'm sure that there is another side of the story that I'm not hearing.

There is something to be said about the rights of parents to raise their children versus the rights of children, and I can definitely see a debate there. I've heard so much on both sides about either parents not caring about their children or parents caring too much. I definitely think this is way, way, way over the line though. I cannot imagine anything like this happening in my neighborhood. I've had a relatively sheltered life, though, living up here in suburban Canada, and I would be interested to hear what everyone else's reactions are.
bonifaceviii
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada2890 Posts
May 27 2011 20:16 GMT
#2
De-gayification camps: training the serial killers of tomorrow.
Stay a while and listen || http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354018
MaxField
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States2386 Posts
May 27 2011 20:18 GMT
#3
That was pretty intense. I just don't know what to say about that.
"Zerg, so bad it loses to hydras" IdrA.
SiPa
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany129 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 20:25:03
May 27 2011 20:23 GMT
#4
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland
kilgore
Profile Joined August 2010
United States46 Posts
May 27 2011 20:26 GMT
#5
Why are these camps being called Behavior Modification Camps when they hold to none of the tenants of behavior modification?

Behavior modification can be an excellent form of psychological treatment, but it typically involves people with psychological compulsions, phobias, or habits, not sexual orientation. For instance, people can use behavior modification techniques to help them quit smoking or biting their finger nails. This organization sounds like a religious based institution that sanctions child abuse.
"Every time Glenn Beck cries, a mosquito get's its wings." - The Sklar brothers
Zedex
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom310 Posts
May 27 2011 20:27 GMT
#6
Two strangers come barging into my room like that and at least one of them is getting a baseball bat round the back of their head. This isn't right parents shouldn't force their children to do things or to be someone their not.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Zuxo
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden395 Posts
May 27 2011 20:30 GMT
#7
HOLY FUCK, how is that shit legal?
I'm a mother******* lyrical wordsmith, mother******* genius
FictionSC
Profile Joined March 2011
United States17 Posts
May 27 2011 20:31 GMT
#8
That made me so angry. I don't even know what else to say. If someone put me in that situation I would probably come back after they let me out and kill everyone. Im surprised that that didnt happen.
poundcakes
Profile Joined March 2011
Norway239 Posts
May 27 2011 20:36 GMT
#9
This shit makes me so fucking angry. The wastes of flesh and blood that systematically physically and emotionally abuse children and brainwash them like this, and the parents that freely send away their children to something like this.

This only serves to remind that me of how many children are being beaten down, indoctrinated and shamed into hating themselves.

I'm starting to lose faith in basic empathy and compassion.
The cur foretells the knell of parting day; The loafing herd winds slowly o'er the lea; The wise man homeward plods; I only stay to fiddle-faddle in a minor key.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 27 2011 20:36 GMT
#10
What kind of sick monster could let this happen to their child? Both parties should be tried for child abuse, this is sickening.
Romantic
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1844 Posts
May 27 2011 20:38 GMT
#11
On May 28 2011 05:31 FictionSC wrote:
That made me so angry. I don't even know what else to say. If someone put me in that situation I would probably come back after they let me out and kill everyone. Im surprised that that didnt happen.

If you start killing them when they try to take you, you've got a pretty good legal defense.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
May 27 2011 20:39 GMT
#12
On May 28 2011 05:16 bonifaceviii wrote:
De-gayification camps: training the serial killers of tomorrow.

USA USA we lead in number serial killers by far, don't go outing our secret techniques.
ComaDose
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada10357 Posts
May 27 2011 20:41 GMT
#13
omg i dont know what to say this is horrid.
BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album.
FictionSC
Profile Joined March 2011
United States17 Posts
May 27 2011 20:41 GMT
#14
On May 28 2011 05:38 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 05:31 FictionSC wrote:
That made me so angry. I don't even know what else to say. If someone put me in that situation I would probably come back after they let me out and kill everyone. Im surprised that that didnt happen.

If you start killing them when they try to take you, you've got a pretty good legal defense.


Good point. I would probably be rather unprepared though, I don't keep any weapons in my room >_<
rycho
Profile Joined July 2010
United States360 Posts
May 27 2011 20:41 GMT
#15
i read a story similar to this a couple years ago, i don't remember what that camp was called. i don't have a problem with strict discipline on kids, but this is obviously abusive and ridiculous. its really hard to imagine going through this.

i'd also like to point out how unsurprising it is that this is all tied up in some stupid religious bullshit about how people shouldn't be gay.
Retgery
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1229 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 20:44:48
May 27 2011 20:42 GMT
#16
How is that possibly legal. That's just disgusting and inhuman, shows just how far people in NA have come in terms of Tolerance.
Fall down 7 times, stand up 8.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
May 27 2011 20:42 GMT
#17
On May 28 2011 05:38 Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 05:31 FictionSC wrote:
That made me so angry. I don't even know what else to say. If someone put me in that situation I would probably come back after they let me out and kill everyone. Im surprised that that didnt happen.

If you start killing them when they try to take you, you've got a pretty good legal defense.

Pretty good? You'd probably be given a reward.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
ThreeAcross
Profile Joined January 2011
172 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 20:48:03
May 27 2011 20:46 GMT
#18
Don't agree with anything that happened, and it is a terrible way to treat your children.

But just pointing out that this isn't correct.

' The rule book and protocol also appeared to be directly based off of the Mormon religion (no caffeine etc.)'


Even though most people think LDS can't drink caffeine, it isn't the case. While the LDS do have stricter rules with stuff like coffee and tea, the Word of Wisdom doesn't mention caffeine.
Klipsys
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1533 Posts
May 27 2011 20:48 GMT
#19
This isn't even new to be honest, which is pretty terrible. These brain-washing camps exist because some people just can't accept their kids being homosexual.
Hudson Valley Progamer
DisneylandSC
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands435 Posts
May 27 2011 20:50 GMT
#20
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.
ZessiM
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom232 Posts
May 27 2011 21:05 GMT
#21
On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

Flame war inc.

That was a pretty intense reading :| sad that such places exist in a country such as the US
BrTarolg
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United Kingdom3574 Posts
May 27 2011 21:06 GMT
#22
How to make a good person evil:

step 1
Johnranger-123
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United Kingdom341 Posts
May 27 2011 21:09 GMT
#23
That's so sad I hope more media attention comes on to this or something cause this has gotta stop.
MLG_Wiggin
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States767 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 21:13:49
May 27 2011 21:13 GMT
#24
Wow, that's really awful. I feel terrible for those people.
On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

I like how we just read an article with a heavy emphasis on the mistake of blame. Well played.
@DBWiggin, SC2 ref
Unhallowed
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada171 Posts
May 27 2011 21:20 GMT
#25
"We were forced to regularly watch videos involving horror stories of abortions gone wrong, shown gruesome pictures of STDs that had been left unattended for long periods of time, and told that if we had sex before marriage we would likely die or get some horrible ailment."

This was actually standard at my highschool too...

I feel terrible for the kids that experience these types of camps. I also feel terrible that so many people assume to understand life and will manipulate other vulnerable forms of life to correspond to their delusions.
What is evil but good tortured by it's own hunger and thirst?
green.at
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Austria1459 Posts
May 27 2011 21:20 GMT
#26
people are just so fucked up.
Inputting special characters into chat should no longer cause the game to crash.
GhostKorean
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States2330 Posts
May 27 2011 21:28 GMT
#27
What the hell these things exist? How reliable is this source? I always thought these places were invented by parents to threat kids
Hibzy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom445 Posts
May 27 2011 21:28 GMT
#28
This is fucking disgusting, how can anything like this even exist in a modern country.
"Uhh, I just have an insanely good sense of fashion." -TLO
Deja Thoris
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa646 Posts
May 27 2011 21:31 GMT
#29
Thats beyond fucked up.

It sounds like a synpsis of a wierd book, not something that could happen in this day and age.

Found this link from 5 years ago that talks about a class action law suit. Wonder if anything happened http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=22096
Ocedic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1808 Posts
May 27 2011 21:31 GMT
#30
Sounds like child abuse.
Nevy
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada169 Posts
May 27 2011 21:32 GMT
#31
I find that hard to believe that these places still exist in 2011. Especially in the US. I wish someone would raid the place.
Stereotype
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States136 Posts
May 27 2011 21:34 GMT
#32
I love that people can read/hear about this stuff then still claim that being gay is a choice...

Open your eyes and question for yourself, people!
Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try. -- John Lennon
Glaven
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada554 Posts
May 27 2011 21:37 GMT
#33
I tried to find some sort of information on this cross creek place by nothing substantive; anyone find anything? Regarding the article, it's pretty disgusting and I hope this stuff gets more publicity. Shame on the parents and everyone at the camps involved.
Special Tactics
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 21:48:56
May 27 2011 21:45 GMT
#34
We really need to come up with a name for these types of threads, where people extrapolate from an isolated event or entity in order to make sweeping generalizations about nations/religions/political groups/etc.

Any suggestions? It should be something short and catchy that describes the simplicity of the extrapolations.

Maybe we can call them "Wag the Dog Threads." I kinda like it.

On May 28 2011 06:34 Stereotype wrote:
I love that people can read/hear about this stuff then still claim that being gay is a choice...

Open your eyes and question for yourself, people!

Some people still deny evolution, too. It's obvious such people don't want to have their eyes open, so there is no point to offering facts or evidence. Like trolls on the internet, they are better off ignored.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
tdynasty
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada220 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 21:49:21
May 27 2011 21:46 GMT
#35
I'm just blown away.

I come to this forum and read alot of shocking things.

This kind of story makes me thankful to be Canadian even more.
Honestly i'm not sure what's worse. The children being mentally tortured or the full grown adults that can justify what they are doing is moral... (I mean who the fuck wants to tackle a child to restrain them... If I saw a child being abused by a grown man regardless of the situation I would have Super Sayen rage flowing through me...)

I can't even imagine being in that poor girls shoes. The first poster is right. This is probably the most legitimate way I can see myself being a serial killer.

I just hope that the future americans will incinerate this kind of garbage product of society...
The attitude it takes to be a part of this kind of insitution... It's just freightening.... down right insanity...

French Canada
thfrgi
Profile Joined December 2010
33 Posts
May 27 2011 21:47 GMT
#36
wow, that was actually a very shocking and intense read... The thought that such places exist is really uncomfortable :S now my evening is ruined!
What i found weird though is that the girl that writes this account somehow seems to still try to defend the people at that "school", tries to mitigate what she is describing, while if it was me i would want to kill all the bastards...lingering effect of what they did to her?
you know you want her
roflSloth
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada43 Posts
May 27 2011 21:47 GMT
#37
From http://www.crosscreekprogram.com/ccc/frequently_ask_questions.asp

Q. How do I get my child to agree to come there?
Each situation is different, Some students will come voluntarily others need a bit of persuasion. We will help you determine what is best for your child. (The decision is yours not theirs)


Yep. This sounds like something from a bad horror movie.

It's pretty hard to not get mad at religion when you hear things like this (the girl has said in reddit posts that she only mentioned the program was Mormon because it wasn't advertised as such) but I absolutely can't stand the belief that homosexuality is a learned behaviour that can, and should, be beaten out of you.
SirazTV
Profile Joined May 2010
United States209 Posts
May 27 2011 21:52 GMT
#38
That website looks like a great anonymous target.
Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 23:47:32
May 27 2011 21:58 GMT
#39
Yeah, this FAQ section totally makes me want to go there!
+ Show Spoiler +
Frequently ask questions

Q. How quickly can I have my teen enrolled?
Some families need to work within a tight time frame and in most cases that can be accommodated. The minimum is 24 hours.

Q. Are there any financial aid or assistance programs available?
There is no assistance available at the present time, however we have listed some suggestion under the financial section. Occasionally medical insurances will pay for portions of the program.

Q. Is enrollment open or are there specific times of the year to enroll my teen?
A teen may enter the program any day of the year. The program is year round and academics is year round and self-paced.

Q. Can my teen run away?
Both the programs have a secure campus. The key pad system we use allows us to keep the students in and strangers out.

Q. How often are visits allowed?
Visits are allowed when the teen reaches the appropriate level as an earned privilege.


Q. How many teens sleep in a room?
Four to six depending on the room.

Q. How long do the teens stay?
It is recommended that the teen stay for 1 year giving the teen enough time to incorporate the changes they have made. Each teen progresses at a different pace.

Q. How is the family involved in the student's program?
Each teen is assigned a family representative that is in contact with your teen throughout the day. Weekly phone calls are made updating your teens progress. In time, therapeutic phone calls are made for the purpose of working out family issues. Parents and teens communicate by letter as often as they like. A series of self-growth seminars that are nearly identical to the ones the teen participates in, is provided for the parents in two locations in the country (Las Vegas, NV and Atlanta, GA).

Q. What is your success rate with these programs?
This is a hard number to track, ever parent had a different definition of success for their student. We do have many families who stay involved with us and who just occasionally drop by and/or call. If you would like to talk to a parent who has a teen currently in one of these programs or has a teen who has graduated, we would be happy to provide you with names and numbers. The names and numbers range from current to 15 years ago, and all in between.

Q. How do I get my child to agree to come there?
Each situation is different, Some students will come voluntarily others need a bit of persuasion. We will help you determine what is best for your child. (The decision is yours not theirs)



Religion is like a Penis. It's ok to have one, it's ok to be proud of it, but pulling it out in public and trying to jam it down people's throats won't get you in there good books.

THAT'S IT. I'M FUCKING TIRED OF THESE FUCKED UP PEOPLE IN AMERICA I'M MOVING TO FRANCE ASAP GODDAMNIT.
tdynasty
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada220 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 22:02:33
May 27 2011 21:59 GMT
#40
Let's not be fooled here. Religion is not the problem.

But rather the extremist "Evangelical/Morman" Point of view. I have seen many just insanely shocking things from these kinds of people. That's why this is actually believable.

I mean these are the kinds of people that try to justify what they are doing with "God" but are so ironically hypocrites about how they view life it's sickening.

I'm actually sick to my stomach. If I had a choice right now, pay 10 thousand dollars, and erase all of this type of activity from existence. I wouldn't even hesitate. I'd give that money and sleep happily forever.

What's so ironic to me, is how these people use the term evil.... When I would call them and their words to be true evil.

P.S.

Move to Canada it's closer. Guaranteed permanent stay + membership.
French Canada
Thorakh
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands1788 Posts
May 27 2011 22:00 GMT
#41
I'm just speachless...
notwelldone
Profile Joined June 2010
92 Posts
May 27 2011 22:00 GMT
#42
So sad...
Losing is Fun
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 22:05:13
May 27 2011 22:02 GMT
#43
Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?

I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.

And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Thorminator
Profile Joined November 2010
Norway8 Posts
May 27 2011 22:07 GMT
#44
On May 28 2011 06:32 Nevy wrote:
I find that hard to believe that these places still exist in 2011. Especially in the US. I wish someone would raid the place.


Heard of Guantanamo? I dont like the way this is going, US needs to start paying attention to human rights
TOloseGT
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States1145 Posts
May 27 2011 22:12 GMT
#45
Not surprised. The world is full of nutjobs, and giving them power leads to this.
gogogadgetflow
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2583 Posts
May 27 2011 22:18 GMT
#46
On May 28 2011 07:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?

I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.

And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either.


Its not that its a mormon organization per se, but the extreme evangelism/orthodoxy is pretty much typified by the LDS church (I'm at least sure it's the most mainstream example in the West)
roflSloth
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada43 Posts
May 27 2011 22:22 GMT
#47
On May 28 2011 07:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?

I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.

And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either.


Read her reddit posts, she actually only mentioned it was a Mormon program because it wasn't mentioned anywhere; she even said she wouldn't have made a big deal out of it if they advertised they were Mormon.

As for the evidence, well, if you read her transcript carefully, she mentions many religious themes present in Cross Creek's program. Combine that with the staff being 95% Mormon (her words, not mine), and that's a pretty easy conclusion to make, in my opinion.


As much as I disagree with religion in general, however, I definitely agree with your point that we shouldn't bash the Mormon point of view. There are extremists and douchebags from all beliefs; Christians, Muslims, Mormons, even atheists. I definitely see too many people on TL boards instantly condemning the religion involved when things like this happen.
Lucidx
Profile Joined December 2010
United States122 Posts
May 27 2011 22:24 GMT
#48
>Read first person post on Reddit
>Must be true

Don't you think, with this massive era of being politically correct in the US, that something would be done about this? If not by the government, then by huge activist groups like the ACLU?
Think about it people.
" I would rather get AIDS then get hit by a bus then have my expansion blocked by a pylon" - Day[9]
rycho
Profile Joined July 2010
United States360 Posts
May 27 2011 22:25 GMT
#49
On May 28 2011 07:24 Lucidx wrote:
>Read first person post on Reddit
>Must be true

Don't you think, with this massive era of being politically correct in the US, that something would be done about this? If not by the government, then by huge activist groups like the ACLU?
Think about it people.


not at all, look at our prison system if you have any doubts about that
Mo0Rauder
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada182 Posts
May 27 2011 22:26 GMT
#50
This is exactly why I keep a Katana directly beside my bed. GG
All work or all play? Nive to five? Or, five to nine?
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
May 27 2011 22:26 GMT
#51
This is what happens when religious radicals go unchecked into mainstream society for generations.

It's a truly sad thing, and events like this actually make me a little sad for living in the USA.

God damn our country is just so messed up.......
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
Lucidx
Profile Joined December 2010
United States122 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 22:29:54
May 27 2011 22:28 GMT
#52
On May 28 2011 07:25 rycho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 07:24 Lucidx wrote:
>Read first person post on Reddit
>Must be true

Don't you think, with this massive era of being politically correct in the US, that something would be done about this? If not by the government, then by huge activist groups like the ACLU?
Think about it people.


not at all, look at our prison system if you have any doubts about that

What about the prison system?
The prisoners are treated way too well in my opinion.
" I would rather get AIDS then get hit by a bus then have my expansion blocked by a pylon" - Day[9]
Clearout
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1060 Posts
May 27 2011 22:28 GMT
#53
Absolutely disgusting, the worst part is I don't doubt it's validity either, this is the thing I would least expect from any western first world county.
really?
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 22:33:17
May 27 2011 22:29 GMT
#54
On May 28 2011 06:59 tdynasty wrote:
Let's not be fooled here. Religion is not the problem.

But rather the extremist "Evangelical/Morman" Point of view. I have seen many just insanely shocking things from these kinds of people. That's why this is actually believable.

I mean these are the kinds of people that try to justify what they are doing with "God" but are so ironically hypocrites about how they view life it's sickening.

I'm actually sick to my stomach. If I had a choice right now, pay 10 thousand dollars, and erase all of this type of activity from existence. I wouldn't even hesitate. I'd give that money and sleep happily forever.

What's so ironic to me, is how these people use the term evil.... When I would call them and their words to be true evil.

P.S.

Move to Canada it's closer. Guaranteed permanent stay + membership.


Disagree. We all have biases, prejudices etc. However religious texts which support them and religious leaders who back the anti-homosexuality position up just make the problem worse. Religion makes the perpetrators of religious doctrine righteous.

For the most part we've got over racism, because it wasn't supported by our leaders. We got over subordinating women, because it wasn't supported by our leaders (in western nations at least, in islamic nations its still going strong). Homophobia is NOT gone, its alive and kicking because religious leaders back it up.

So yes, the root of the corruption is religion. Christianity specifically.

These people can unashamedly say, without any hint of irony, that they love jesus and hate gays.

Edit: @roflSloth, I see that garbage being spouted around a lot, that there are atheists who do stuff as bad as these religious people. Who, exactly? I've never heard of it, and with our religiously-biased western media i'm pretty sure the second an atheist steps out of line we'd hear all about it. The pope would never stop talking about it for starters.

So who? What atheist organization does anything remotely like this?
Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
Lucidx
Profile Joined December 2010
United States122 Posts
May 27 2011 22:29 GMT
#55
On May 28 2011 07:28 Clearout wrote:
Absolutely disgusting, the worst part is I don't doubt it's validity either, this is the thing I would least expect from any western first world county.

Why don't you doubt it?
" I would rather get AIDS then get hit by a bus then have my expansion blocked by a pylon" - Day[9]
Retgery
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1229 Posts
May 27 2011 22:50 GMT
#56
This is from one of their "honest interview"
My daughter is a graduate of the Program, and it saved her life. Sending my daughter to the Program was one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life. The consequences of NOT sending her were too terrible to even think about. After much research I chose this program because they would treat my daughter with a great deal of love and respect. It was highly structured; her choices created her results. In order for her to ‘move up the levels’ she had to prove herself to the staff and to her peers. It turned out that is was much more difficult to fool her peers than to fool the staff. They also have parent seminars. This isn’t a program to ‘fix’ your child. This is a program that heals the whole family, including yourself. The Program deals with personal change, internalized change. This is a program that encourages change through the love and support of peers and staff alike but does not happen overnight. The patterns and habits of bad choices did not happen overnight either.
This is absolute bullshit, and it disgusts what this place is advertising to people.
Fall down 7 times, stand up 8.
homeless_guy
Profile Joined June 2005
United States321 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 22:51:46
May 27 2011 22:51 GMT
#57
How can I help people like this?

Edit: I mean people treated like the author of this article.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 27 2011 23:03 GMT
#58
On May 28 2011 07:29 Vore210 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 06:59 tdynasty wrote:
Let's not be fooled here. Religion is not the problem.

But rather the extremist "Evangelical/Morman" Point of view. I have seen many just insanely shocking things from these kinds of people. That's why this is actually believable.

I mean these are the kinds of people that try to justify what they are doing with "God" but are so ironically hypocrites about how they view life it's sickening.

I'm actually sick to my stomach. If I had a choice right now, pay 10 thousand dollars, and erase all of this type of activity from existence. I wouldn't even hesitate. I'd give that money and sleep happily forever.

What's so ironic to me, is how these people use the term evil.... When I would call them and their words to be true evil.

P.S.

Move to Canada it's closer. Guaranteed permanent stay + membership.


Disagree. We all have biases, prejudices etc. However religious texts which support them and religious leaders who back the anti-homosexuality position up just make the problem worse. Religion makes the perpetrators of religious doctrine righteous.

For the most part we've got over racism, because it wasn't supported by our leaders. We got over subordinating women, because it wasn't supported by our leaders (in western nations at least, in islamic nations its still going strong). Homophobia is NOT gone, its alive and kicking because religious leaders back it up.

So yes, the root of the corruption is religion. Christianity specifically.

These people can unashamedly say, without any hint of irony, that they love jesus and hate gays.

Edit: @roflSloth, I see that garbage being spouted around a lot, that there are atheists who do stuff as bad as these religious people. Who, exactly? I've never heard of it, and with our religiously-biased western media i'm pretty sure the second an atheist steps out of line we'd hear all about it. The pope would never stop talking about it for starters.

So who? What atheist organization does anything remotely like this?

Yes, when people say there are atheist douchebags too, I mean that's obvious they're human. But the difference is their douchebaggery isn't partially caused or fueled/assisted by their atheism, so the comparison is irrelevant. It can be pretty annoying.
schmeebs
Profile Joined August 2010
United States115 Posts
May 27 2011 23:04 GMT
#59
Anyone who has any doubts that these places exist should put a little effort into researching them. I live in Utah and have seen these places, was almost sent to one until my parents realized the hellholes they were. I had friends that were sent to these places and while its not a horror story for everyone, it is for many.
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 23:13:20
May 27 2011 23:10 GMT
#60
I wouldn't be surprised if that kid was a right pain in the ass originally, and this was extreme measure to make it civil
People find it hard to view my flaws, and dear god my teenage sister is top among those :/

Edit: oh silly me, only read the opening paragraph or two
it could be compared across still, the parents see the girl as flawed and she won't say she is
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 27 2011 23:12 GMT
#61
On May 28 2011 08:10 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if that kid was a right pain in the ass originally, and this was extreme measure to make it civil
People find it hard to view my flaws, and dear god my teenage sister is top among those :/

Either you didn't read any of it or you flat out think she completely lied, for no reason.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
May 27 2011 23:12 GMT
#62
As much hate as I have for the people running that camp after reading that story, the true villain in all of that is her mother.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
May 27 2011 23:14 GMT
#63
On May 28 2011 08:12 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 08:10 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if that kid was a right pain in the ass originally, and this was extreme measure to make it civil
People find it hard to view my flaws, and dear god my teenage sister is top among those :/

Either you didn't read any of it or you flat out think she completely lied, for no reason.


It's possible she hates her family enough to lie, but edited my post anyway
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25552 Posts
May 27 2011 23:14 GMT
#64
On May 28 2011 07:24 Lucidx wrote:
>Read first person post on Reddit
>Must be true

Don't you think, with this massive era of being politically correct in the US, that something would be done about this? If not by the government, then by huge activist groups like the ACLU?
Think about it people.



I had a friend who was shipped off to a camp like this. These places do exist, and although he didn't describe it with quite the same malice that this reddit poster did, it was clearly a damaging experience for him. He came back and seemed okay, reformed even, but suffered a negative personality change that's caused him a lot of trouble.

It wasn't all bad-- he picked up study habits and a work ethic that helped him in college-- but it also wrecked him emotionally and psychologically, and he is a damaged person today. Before he left, he was a lazy bum who played video games all day. Now he's an abusive boyfriend, passing along the abuse he recieved at his camp.

The fact of the matter is, these schools are relatively small and relatively few, so the number of people impacted by them is small as well. They're usually out in the wilderness (my friend's school was in Montana) and there are similar schools that aren't terrible, so the bad ones mix in with the good.

These "tough love" abuse schools do exist, and they ARE terrible, and nothing they do is illegal, because all the children consent to it, either in writing or verbally with a parent signature. They will not be prosecuted. They will not be stopped, under current law, and that's just how it is...

it's an ugly world.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
May 27 2011 23:15 GMT
#65
Things like this is why everyone should have a gun with them at all times. They'll have a much harder time dragging you off to some hellhole with their brains on the wall.
Who called in the fleet?
Loanshark
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
China3094 Posts
May 27 2011 23:21 GMT
#66
On May 28 2011 08:15 Millitron wrote:
Things like this is why everyone should have a gun with them at all times. They'll have a much harder time dragging you off to some hellhole with their brains on the wall.


If you think that's actually going to lead to a better society, I think you need to be sent to one of those camps.
No dough, no go. And no mercy.
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
May 27 2011 23:25 GMT
#67
I'm on the second paragraph. I'm pretty sure I would have violently screamed in the airport that i was being abducted and abused.
Airport security nowadays would be ON THAT SHIT in moments if they saw some kid being tied up and handled like that, claiming to be being abducted.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
May 27 2011 23:26 GMT
#68
On May 28 2011 08:21 Loanshark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 08:15 Millitron wrote:
Things like this is why everyone should have a gun with them at all times. They'll have a much harder time dragging you off to some hellhole with their brains on the wall.


If you think that's actually going to lead to a better society, I think you need to be sent to one of those camps.


That's not the point, its about personal security. I'm liberal, but sure as hell if I was in the states i'd have a gun or two. Country is rife with gun crime, you need a gun to get on a level with the criminals.

One of the many upsides in living here in Europe, guns ain't something you have to worry about!
Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
rycho
Profile Joined July 2010
United States360 Posts
May 27 2011 23:26 GMT
#69
On May 28 2011 07:28 Lucidx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 07:25 rycho wrote:
On May 28 2011 07:24 Lucidx wrote:
>Read first person post on Reddit
>Must be true

Don't you think, with this massive era of being politically correct in the US, that something would be done about this? If not by the government, then by huge activist groups like the ACLU?
Think about it people.


not at all, look at our prison system if you have any doubts about that

What about the prison system?
The prisoners are treated way too well in my opinion.


if you think people deserve being tortured/raped/killed because they put drugs in their own body (if they are guilty of anything at all) or their race then i sort of feel bad for you.

i hope this is a troll though
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
May 27 2011 23:32 GMT
#70
On May 28 2011 07:24 Lucidx wrote:
>Read first person post on Reddit
>Must be true

Don't you think, with this massive era of being politically correct in the US, that something would be done about this? If not by the government, then by huge activist groups like the ACLU?
Think about it people.


No. You're incredibly naive to think that.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
VTPerfect
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
May 27 2011 23:36 GMT
#71
the funny part is in the US is that if you had money you could simply petition the court to be emancipated and as a full legal adult you would immediately be able to leave. It's a shame there is a legal distinction between minors and adults.
Enchanted
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1609 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 23:40:03
May 27 2011 23:38 GMT
#72
Having grown up in America, hearing about this makes me sick. I'm pretty sure they'd have to knock me out to get me to go with them, i'm amazed that people in an airport saw this girl with a belt around her and said nothing.

I didn't read it all the way through, but i'm going to go ahead and assume her mother was a dumb religious fanatic? If i'm wrong, sorry -0-
Albrithe
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada187 Posts
May 27 2011 23:40 GMT
#73
sickening. I only read the first 7 paragraphs and I had to stop...
I agree with people saying they would have fought. If people I didn't know woke me up in bed the first thing I'd do is grab the heaviest thing off my nightstand...
"You don't need a condom... to get up on 'dem..." -Zach Weiner
sNuFFsie
Profile Joined March 2011
25 Posts
May 27 2011 23:41 GMT
#74
On May 28 2011 08:12 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
As much hate as I have for the people running that camp after reading that story, the true villain in all of that is her mother.



This is the truth. Her mother sent her there not because of her dabbling in drugs or sexual activity, but because she liked the same sex. Then later when she told her mother about her being raped, her mom goes and tells everybody and tells her daughter she deserves it. No one deserves to be raped and it is horrific that a mother would tell her daughter that she did.

Either this girl is an eloquent and masterful liar or she is telling the truth. She may have exaggerated in some places but I don't believe so and I am sure she has been through something extremely traumatic that I don't know if I could suffer through.

Also, I think people are putting too much thought into the religious aspect. Yes CC seems to be very religious oriented and I believe it is, but religion isn't to blame. Close-minded and ignorant people who hide behind religion to force their beliefs on others is to blame.

(This is coming from someone who is in no way religious.)
kirdie
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany221 Posts
May 27 2011 23:47 GMT
#75
I don't really believe that is legal even in the USA...
dreamsmasher
Profile Joined November 2010
816 Posts
May 27 2011 23:48 GMT
#76
ya these places are really fucked up. is a shame shit like this actually exists in this country
Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
May 27 2011 23:51 GMT
#77
On May 28 2011 08:12 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
As much hate as I have for the people running that camp after reading that story, the true villain in all of that is her mother.

QFT Her mother completely betrayed the trust her daughter put in her by twisting the story and disclosing the information to her friends.

Her mother couldn't accept that her daughter was lesbian and sent her away to a facility KNOWN for being abusive so that they could "fix" her. That's disgusting.
Prfx
Profile Joined July 2010
51 Posts
May 27 2011 23:51 GMT
#78
reminds me of southpark season 11 episode 2.
yoshi_yoshi
Profile Joined January 2010
United States440 Posts
May 27 2011 23:53 GMT
#79
Wow. At first I thought it was a joke because it sounded so similar to the South Park episode where Butters goes to a camp for being gay =/. But actually it's what South Park was trying to parody.

I'm curious what the solution to this is. The thing is, these camps do have a purpose and parents should have the right to send their kids to camp. But there needs to be some way out, or else it is like a prison. I'm thinking a government official should be able to tour all of these kinds of camps periodically and each kid should have the option of talking to this official when they come around.
Z3kk
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4099 Posts
May 27 2011 23:55 GMT
#80
This is terrible beyond words...no doubt about that. So enraging yet saddening to see something like this happen :[

I also still cannot believe (sort of a sidenote) it when such terrible programs or the ilk incorporate religion in such a grotesque and hypocritical way. It's also quite absurd, that there are people who believe that this is directly the result of religion. Religion has caused some very bad things, but it is not directly responsible for the unjustifiable actions carried out by misguided and/or utterly immoral individuals.
Failure is not falling down over and over again. Failure is refusing to get back up.
Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
May 27 2011 23:55 GMT
#81
On May 28 2011 08:47 kirdie wrote:
I don't really believe that is legal even in the USA...


That's just it. It is, but it's the "Half legal." The only reason their asses aren't in jail right now is because they try to sweep everything they do under the rug and hide it, while anyone who's ever been to the place knows that they're hiding it and that they really are just being sadistic assholes imposing their belief on others. The second part is quite simple and stupid. I'd bet money that the mother didn't consult her daughter and signed away without reading the literal fine print. She signed, and according to our legal system she gave permission. It bothers me that someone can give consent of someone else. When did the girl give her consent? She didn't, but apparently our parents can do that for us. Ugh.
Arnstein
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway3381 Posts
May 28 2011 00:01 GMT
#82
This is just insane. Ban religion please. How come people believe in old myths? I find it funny that people laugh at Thor and Zeus, but believe in Jesus.
rsol in response to the dragoon voice being heard in SCII: dragoon ai reaches new lows: wanders into wrong game
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
May 28 2011 00:06 GMT
#83
i blame it on the parents... are they even highschool educated?
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
NexUmbra
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Scotland3776 Posts
May 28 2011 00:08 GMT
#84
Only in america huh...
Life has won two GSLs and a Blizzard Cup. NOT three GSLs.
Fear219
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom168 Posts
May 28 2011 00:21 GMT
#85
@Main Post

I don't see how the US goverment allow this to happen. If a school over here gets even 1 complaint no matter how big or small there is a huge inquest into it.

I went to a boarding school all my life, while there i was treated with respected everyday and in return i treated them the same way.

I feel so sorry for this girl and all other people that go there.

On May 28 2011 09:01 Arnstein wrote:
This is just insane. Ban religion please. How come people believe in old myths? I find it funny that people laugh at Thor and Zeus, but believe in Jesus.


So do i.

Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
May 28 2011 00:26 GMT
#86

+ Show Spoiler +
On May 28 2011 09:01 Arnstein wrote:
This is just insane. Ban religion please. How come people believe in old myths? I find it funny that people laugh at Thor and Zeus, but believe in Jesus.


I asked a christian kid about 9 years old this question and I completely stumped him.

"Do you believe in the greek gods?"
"No, they're just myths."
"Right, to explain lightning?"
"Yeah."
"So all that magical stuff like granting wishes and ghosts are impossible, right?"
"So what makes the the miracles that jesus and god perform any less mythical and impossible."
"Gods existence doesn't explain lightning or scientific stuff. Nor does he cause lightning, he just incites the static or whatever."
"Yes, but we know that monotheism developed from polytheism, and polytheism exhibits individual gods, and they were used to explain lightning and natural disasters. The religion then developed to say that he just "Incited" it around the time of the scientific method."
He sat there, with his hands stroking his chin and he just said "I don't know."


People really don't think things through when they consider things like this.
rel
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Guam3521 Posts
May 28 2011 00:26 GMT
#87
On May 28 2011 09:01 Arnstein wrote:
This is just insane. Ban religion please. How come people believe in old myths? I find it funny that people laugh at Thor and Zeus, but believe in Jesus.


Because Jesus was an actual person? Whether or not you believe he was a prophet or Son of God, he still existed.
I'll tank push my way into her heart. ☮♥&$!
Krikan
Profile Joined October 2010
Norway520 Posts
May 28 2011 00:27 GMT
#88
absolutely horrid that it's possible to get away with something like this in any way whatsoever. Also I must say that I am completely shocked by this girls mother and how she could actually, not only let something like this happen, but send her own daughter of to something like this. Feel so bad for anyone who's had to go through any program that even slightly resembles anything like what was just described.
Naniwa on making the MLG finals: Uh, it's ok.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 28 2011 00:27 GMT
#89
On May 28 2011 09:26 rel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 09:01 Arnstein wrote:
This is just insane. Ban religion please. How come people believe in old myths? I find it funny that people laugh at Thor and Zeus, but believe in Jesus.


Because Jesus was an actual person? Whether or not you believe he was a prophet or Son of God, he still existed.

Debatable.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5079 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 00:31:29
May 28 2011 00:28 GMT
#90
Now if only we could get people to look at drug rehabs the same way, since they are exactly the same thing.

off topic:

+ Show Spoiler +
I asked a christian kid about 9 years old this question and I completely stumped him.

"Do you believe in the greek gods?"
"No, they're just myths."
"Right, to explain lightning?"
"Yeah."
"So all that magical stuff like granting wishes and ghosts are impossible, right?"
"So what makes the the miracles that jesus and god perform any less mythical and impossible."
"Gods existence doesn't explain lightning or scientific stuff. Nor does he cause lightning, he just incites the static or whatever."
"Yes, but we know that monotheism developed from polytheism, and polytheism exhibits individual gods, and they were used to explain lightning and natural disasters. The religion then developed to say that he just "Incited" it around the time of the scientific method."
He sat there, with his hands stroking his chin and he just said "I don't know."


it's not really impressive that you won a theological debate with a nine year old, i hope you know. there are holes in what you said just slightly smaller than the ones in what he said.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
stokes17
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1411 Posts
May 28 2011 00:29 GMT
#91
why would you willingly put your child through this
Igakusei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States610 Posts
May 28 2011 00:36 GMT
#92
On May 28 2011 09:29 stokes17 wrote:
why would you willingly put your child through this


Because they think it'll save their child's eternal soul.
BearStorm
Profile Joined September 2010
United States795 Posts
May 28 2011 00:36 GMT
#93
Although what happened at this school is absolutely horrible. The problem is that enough people are just so prejudice and closed minded that there is enough support to allow these schools to exist. If there was no desire for parents to send students to a facility like this then the school would not exist in the first place. I hope as time progresses parents will realize that by not accepting what they perceive as faults of their children then they will probably cause more damage by not being a supportive or at least an understanding character.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
Ziktomini
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom377 Posts
May 28 2011 00:44 GMT
#94
it would be so intollerant to not be tolerant to this religious and fundamentalist intolerance....



On May 28 2011 09:26 rel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 09:01 Arnstein wrote:
This is just insane. Ban religion please. How come people believe in old myths? I find it funny that people laugh at Thor and Zeus, but believe in Jesus.


Because Jesus was an actual person? Whether or not you believe he was a prophet or Son of God, he still existed.


Yes, Jesus was a common name back then, nobody called Jesus fulfilled the story of the Bible in real life, the new testament is essentially a mix of Greek and Egyptian gods. To say Jesus existed 2000 years ago is like somebody in 2000 years from now saying "2000 years ago a guy called Steve existed".
mYiKane
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada1772 Posts
May 28 2011 00:45 GMT
#95
disgusting, absolutely disgusting. this is why i think religion can be wrong in so many ways.
AutomatonOmega
Profile Joined February 2011
United States706 Posts
May 28 2011 00:51 GMT
#96
On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

Agreed. This is like a forced 12-step program to get people to get over being gay.

Fucked up.
julianto
Profile Joined December 2010
2292 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 00:52:12
May 28 2011 00:51 GMT
#97
Utah is the place for you if you're a christian conservative. Lots of the moron denomination reside there, and as a result lots of funky laws get passed.

Utah outlaws sexiness


Pretty much if you deviate from the social norm, in a non-criminal way, you get treated like crap.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
TOloseGT
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States1145 Posts
May 28 2011 00:53 GMT
#98
On May 28 2011 09:51 julianto wrote:
Utah is the place for you if you're a christian conservative. Lots of the moron denomination reside there, and as a result lots of funky laws get passed.

Utah outlaws sexiness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlGQLh9MoMc

Pretty much if you deviate from the social norm, in a non-criminal way, you get treated like crap.


Nah bro, Utah's the place you drive through to get to California.
Kinetik_Inferno
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1431 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 01:02:52
May 28 2011 01:01 GMT
#99
Alright, are we done talking about the religion stuff people? back to the topic.

It bothers me that an "Official" teen help program turns out to be so abusive and unlawful. The fact that people like this get put in a position of power, and not reprimanded for abusing their power, is disgusting, and bothersome.
Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
May 28 2011 01:02 GMT
#100
On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Fuck off, because it's the entire country's fault right? And nothing bad has ever happened in Germany has it? What I love about that is everyone's mind automatically goes to one very specific thing when you mention bad things happening in Germany, that's how much you guys messed up. except wait, you guys weren't the ones that messed up just one specific group of people, and that's why we don't blame the entire nation...
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
May 28 2011 01:08 GMT
#101
Holy shit, what the fuck is wrong with people. How can any parent justifiably put their child through something so horrifying. -1 faith in humanity.
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 01:17:57
May 28 2011 01:17 GMT
#102
i think the really sad part is, its the that parents who agree to let their children be treated like this.

some people dont need to have kids. but then again, why the hell we have these kind of camps is just mind boggling.

someone needs to be a superhero and go fuck up 1 of those facilities.
HyruleanTubist
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States189 Posts
May 28 2011 01:20 GMT
#103
I can't believe this is happening in this time, in this country. How has no one noticed this and done something? I suppose some of them have been shut down, but you'd think by now an investigation would have been done on all of the other facilities, too.

And, as a religious person myself, I find it disgusting that something like this gets blamed as "Oh, that's religion for you, this is why being religious is stupid." This kind of behavior shouldn't represent what any religion is about, and you're stupid if you think that a religion is "wrong" simply because these things unfortunately happen "in the name of God." It's really dumb to say God doesn't exist or whatever simply because some idiots are torturing children.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
May 28 2011 01:24 GMT
#104
The fact that these camps are lega baffle me. A country that prides itself on advocating freedom should not allow programming of kids that basically takes away their right to choose their own life and their own opinions. I honestly get nazi vibes from these camps, even if violence doesn't exist in all of them.
NEWater
Profile Joined June 2010
Singapore178 Posts
May 28 2011 01:27 GMT
#105
So much for the Bill of Rights.

America, fuck yeah!
Igakusei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States610 Posts
May 28 2011 01:44 GMT
#106
On May 28 2011 10:08 KimJongChill wrote:
Holy shit, what the fuck is wrong with people. How can any parent justifiably put their child through something so horrifying. -1 faith in humanity.


Again, because they honestly believe that what they're doing is for the long-term benefit of the child. It's sorta like the rationalization for spanking: "I cause you pain now so that you'll learn respect and be a productive person later." Sick and twisted yes, but have you ever actually tried to convince one of these people that their beliefs are harmful?
Number-J
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom52 Posts
May 28 2011 01:45 GMT
#107
Only in america, the face of the 'civilised world' . barbarians.

User was warned for this post
the number ... J
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 23:02:05
May 28 2011 01:56 GMT
#108
got so much admiration for this person, simply because she was able to do what so many other people who've been in similar situations (many not nearly as bad as hers) couldn't:

To Move on and not live out the rest of your life twisted by rage and shame and guilt and pity.
Too Busy to Troll!
sixdrumquads
Profile Joined January 2011
United States51 Posts
May 28 2011 02:15 GMT
#109
this is really sick. just the fact that people will treat other people this way makes me sick. if i was sent to one of these first thing im doing is bluffing it until i get to a phone then calling the police and reporting abuse. i dont care if my parents signed a waiver, if they are physicaly harming me i think a police department would at least temporaily step in and look at it a little. maybe?

the thing is is that most kids would be asleep. i wake up easily and if they talked or didnt sound like my mom coming upstairs id be awake and have some sort of something in my hand. drum sticks are good for everything imo.
i think everyone from every religion has had this but the american government needs to crack down on these places heavily in my opinion


bahl sofs tiil
Profile Joined December 2010
United States233 Posts
May 28 2011 02:36 GMT
#110
On May 28 2011 08:41 sNuFFsie wrote:
Either this girl is an eloquent and masterful liar or she is telling the truth. She may have exaggerated in some places but I don't believe so and I am sure she has been through something extremely traumatic that I don't know if I could suffer through.


Uh, she doesn't have to eloquent or masterful. She just wrote a story, man. You shouldn't just believe something because you think it is well written.

You should believe this because the organization that ran these camps was sued into oblivion, but the reasons you give for believing it are just stupid. So, so stupid.
And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get is one trick: rational thinking; but, when you're good and crazy, ooohoohoohoohoooo, the sky is the limit!
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
May 28 2011 02:43 GMT
#111
Surely the kid would tell their parent. What kind of parent would do that?
bahl sofs tiil
Profile Joined December 2010
United States233 Posts
May 28 2011 02:43 GMT
#112
On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland


I tried to verify if this statement was true but when I searched "germany gay camp" all I got were a bunch of stories from the 1940's...
And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get is one trick: rational thinking; but, when you're good and crazy, ooohoohoohoohoooo, the sky is the limit!
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
May 28 2011 02:43 GMT
#113
On May 28 2011 11:43 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland


I tried to verify if this statement was true but when I searched "germany gay camp" all I got were a bunch of stories from the 1940's...


Godwin's Law...
Starfox
Profile Joined April 2010
Austria699 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 02:52:27
May 28 2011 02:51 GMT
#114
On May 28 2011 11:43 Deadeight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 11:43 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland


I tried to verify if this statement was true but when I searched "germany gay camp" all I got were a bunch of stories from the 1940's...


Godwin's Law...

Well, the story reminded me of re-education camps, but still his comment does in no way satisfy Godwin's Law.+ Show Spoiler +
Seems like you throw that around like Gretorp does with 'metagame'
Greek Mythology 2.0: Imagine Sisyphos as a man who wants to watch all videos on youtube... and Tityos as one who HAS to watch all of them.
BroboCop
Profile Joined December 2010
United States373 Posts
May 28 2011 03:49 GMT
#115
I didn't read many of the responses but I don't get why the girl couldn't have yelled something along the lines of "rape, kidnap, etc" while in the airport. As it would of been obvious that the person holding her was indeed not her true parent/guardian.

Regardless, the parents are pretty stupid.
FishFuzz99
Profile Joined February 2010
United States152 Posts
May 28 2011 04:58 GMT
#116
Good thing my parents didn't try anything like that when I was under 18. Bad things would have happened to someone barging into my room to basically kidnap me.
Bosko
Profile Joined February 2010
United States155 Posts
May 28 2011 05:36 GMT
#117
In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.

From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman


Made me laugh. They don't give psychiatric meds to people who aren't broken.

The way they took her to the schooled sounded like the worst part. That's not gonna help a mentally unstable kid who already has issues with their parents any.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
May 28 2011 06:03 GMT
#118
--- Nuked ---
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
May 28 2011 06:22 GMT
#119
Severely fucked up and disturbing. Sounds legit to me.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 06:28:42
May 28 2011 06:27 GMT
#120
The USA is the land of the free, but with that freedom they lost any ethics to teach to their kids. You simply have to look at Spring break and recognize it for what it is: a huge orgy of sex and alcohol simply for the sake of making money. Does that justify such "correction camps"? No, nothing a child ever does deserves such punishment.

Instead of these camps for the children there need to be training facilities for all the adults ... especially the ones in public ... to teach them their responsibilities towards the future generation. After all with people being allowed to "misbehave" without repercussions the next generation will be even worse. Misbehaving includes self-serving bank managers, oil company managers who ignore safety warnings for more profit, rappers who are uncreative to use motherf*** as their one swear word over and over again, ...... and everyone who thinks that "society rules and morals" infringe upon their own freedom.

Total freedom from rules for children is what we have had drilled into us since the 70s by public media and "carebear mommys" and now we see the effect of this everywhere. Drunken minors, child pregnancies at 13, disrespect for laws and elders, mugging and stupid "fun" pictures over Facebook and of course sex selling everything and free porn on the internet.

Correction camps arent the "cure all" for everything, but the citizens of the USA seem to think so. Its disgusting and totally curing the wrong things in society. Such correction camps for children can clearly backfire by making a child hate its parents even more ...

tl;dr
Dont treat the illness, treat the cause for the "illness of misbehaving". It is a sisyphean task, but without it our societies will only go down the drain. "Decent caster language" for Starcraft 2 is part of this task IMO ...
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42738 Posts
May 28 2011 06:51 GMT
#121
On May 28 2011 14:36 Bosko wrote:
Show nested quote +
In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.

From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman


Made me laugh. They don't give psychiatric meds to people who aren't broken.

The way they took her to the schooled sounded like the worst part. That's not gonna help a mentally unstable kid who already has issues with their parents any.

This post is stupid beyond belief. You use meds to treat a physical problem. They give glasses to people whose eyes don't work. You give meds to people whose brains don't work. No more broken than someone with poor eyesight and I highly doubt you're perfect.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Cyba
Profile Joined June 2010
Romania221 Posts
May 28 2011 07:04 GMT
#122
Aren't these camps really old news though?

Think there was even a SP episode about them a couple of years ago.
I'm not evil, I'm just good lookin
Zrana
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom698 Posts
May 28 2011 07:10 GMT
#123
land of the free lol
MoonfireSpam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1153 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 07:32:13
May 28 2011 07:15 GMT
#124
Sounds like the USA. It's also stupid that you can be legally detained like that on the words of your parents (assuming that's why it was legal), I'm pretty sure the US has some caveat in it's law similar to Gillick competence that determines if children can make their own decisions about medical treatment let alone being sent away for months to be wrecked.
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
May 28 2011 07:19 GMT
#125
I'm curious, what was keeping her from simply getting up and leaving?
you gotta dance
Kiichol
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden182 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 07:47:00
May 28 2011 07:28 GMT
#126
I do not understand how the worlds biggest super power and promoter of freedom and democracy, can possibly allow this to be happening within their borders. The USA has an extreme amount of influence across the world politically, economically, militarily, culturally etc. and as cheesy and cliché as it sounds. "With great power, comes great responsibility" its pretty damn true.

I would really like to know whats going on in the US in general to be honest, as horror stories from the US is becoming a recurring theme.. I don't blame the American people though. If I lived in a country where i'm constantly told through media that I live in the free-est, richest country in the world I wouldn't spare a thought to that there might actually be something wrong in my nation. But alas history repeats itself. Look at any previous top dog from the past.. Roman Empire, Mongolian Empire, Persian Empire. Not to say that the US will crumble into nothingness. But I can't see them staying No.1 if they continue on the current course.
“In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane.” - Oscar Wilde
taldarimAltar
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
973 Posts
May 28 2011 07:30 GMT
#127
Sounds so sensationalist, but i have seen documentaries about chinese addiction camps and camps to discipline spoilt kids
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
May 28 2011 07:43 GMT
#128
On May 28 2011 05:31 FictionSC wrote:
That made me so angry. I don't even know what else to say. If someone put me in that situation I would probably come back after they let me out and kill everyone. Im surprised that that didnt happen.

Probably the parents too to be honest, fucking awful human beings.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Meapak_Ziphh
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6786 Posts
May 28 2011 07:49 GMT
#129
DDOS the site
Mob the facility
This made me ill, the cruelty of some people is saddening.
Forti et Fideli ~ TL Mafia Forum: Come play with us! ~ Go Samsung KHAN, Stork, JangBi , Shine, Grape, and TurN Fighting!~ wat
teekesselchen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 07:58:27
May 28 2011 07:57 GMT
#130
As much as there are many Americans keeping bragging about the freedom in their country, I only hear of camps of such kinds existing in the U.S. (in wester democracies, ofc.). Be it those weird "christian warrior" camps where children are drilled, diverse other religious camps and now this.

Last time I heard of any kind of brainwashing camp in Germany, it was immediately shut down (some neonazi camp).
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed extremely hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
DNB
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Finland995 Posts
May 28 2011 08:14 GMT
#131
I didn't know stuff like this existed in US... Absolutely sickening..
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 08:50:04
May 28 2011 08:32 GMT
#132
Total freedom from rules for children is what we have had drilled into us since the 70s by public media and "carebear mommys" and now we see the effect of this everywhere. Drunken minors, child pregnancies at 13, disrespect for laws and elders, mugging and stupid "fun" pictures over Facebook and of course sex selling everything and free porn on the internet.


I somehow doubt this statement is in any way valid. Especially in the context of this thread, do you really think 'carebear mommys' would send their child into this sort of thing? Even as a last resort. On the contrary, I would suggest it's probably most of the 'delinquents' here come from relatively strict, traditional families who have their child's misbehaviour as a mark of shame among their peers, (social tension, I'd say, is one of the few things that can override a parent's care for their child) If their peers are equally lax and uncautious, I doubt such tensions would manifest.

You will find, I think, that the activities you described have always existed, often due to the wildness of children, but equally often due to adults who take advantage of them. I know of several teen pregnancies caused by relationships with older men, for example, and parents who get smashed in front of their children at parties, stock up on loads of alcohol and describe various evil things they would do to their peers if they could. Children aren't wired to be savages, they're brought up to be savages, and not by the parents who give them freedom, but the ones who deny them and flaunt their own in front of them. That gives them the desire to experience such things.

I've observed that children who are not given rules but reasons are the most capable and moral of creatures, beyond even some of the most morally rigorous adults I have encountered. It is of course difficult to convey to children the reasons we have the rules we do in a way that they truly understand it, but it is not by any means impossible so long as one knows the child's experiences to use as reference. Only parents have that knowledge, only parents can do a truly excellent job of it, and parents, on the whole, are incredibly lacking to one end of the spectrum or another.

As was so famously stated "Rules are made to be broken, and often merely for the lazy to hide behind"


Edit: as for my feelings, If only I could find these people, hold them tight and then lay their own minds out before them and uncurl those closed and awful things they have done within themselves to let them be so... inhuman. I don't think anything more violent than the realization of what they have done to the children they have taken. As an Australian this strikes doubly close to home, my country more than any other knows how evil this is and how easy it can come to pass if one does not hold the desires and dreams of children sacred above all else.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
May 28 2011 08:39 GMT
#133
you don't need to look any further than america's interactions with other countries to deduce that hypocrisies like this exist within.
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
gibb
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden288 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 08:43:50
May 28 2011 08:40 GMT
#134
So when are we burning this shit?

EDIT; I'm probably not the right person to hold the torch since I'm banned from entering the U.S.
But someone damn well should, and it's a miracle that none of them kids hasn't gone and painted the inside red already...
Manners.
arbitrageur
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia1202 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 08:45:38
May 28 2011 08:44 GMT
#135
We need a superhero who stealthily murders all the main figures in these sickening stories.
Drazerk
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom31255 Posts
May 28 2011 08:48 GMT
#136
This is horrible I cannot believe this is legal in America.
Doctorbeat
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands13241 Posts
May 28 2011 08:53 GMT
#137
On May 28 2011 14:36 Bosko wrote:
Show nested quote +
In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.

From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman


Made me laugh. They don't give psychiatric meds to people who aren't broken.

The way they took her to the schooled sounded like the worst part. That's not gonna help a mentally unstable kid who already has issues with their parents any.


Most antidepressants are SSRI's.

If an SSRI medication is suddenly discontinued, it may produce both somatic and psychological withdrawal symptoms, a phenomenon known as "SSRI discontinuation syndrome" (Tamam & Ozpoyraz, 2002). When the decision is made to stop taking antidepressants it is common practice to "wean" off of them by slowly decreasing the dose over a period of several weeks. Most cases of discontinuation syndrome last between one and four weeks.


It was a large medical mistake for these alleged (mental) 'health professionals' to not have taken her medicine with them.
- TEAM LIQUID - doctorbeat on LoL
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
May 28 2011 09:00 GMT
#138
People are getting beaten up simply for who they are everywhere around the world. This isn't news.
Sure its damn hypocritical for the USA to have such camps, but hell, we just stopped a bill from passing in africa that allowed gay people to be executed. I can't be surprised by any of the monstrocities that people do anymore.

youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
May 28 2011 09:03 GMT
#139
The mother's half to blame.

After reading stories like this, I'm always thankful for the things I take for granted, like a supportive family.
lalala
bahl sofs tiil
Profile Joined December 2010
United States233 Posts
May 28 2011 09:12 GMT
#140
On May 28 2011 15:03 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 05:46 TreeDome wrote:
Don't agree with anything that happened, and it is a terrible way to treat your children.

But just pointing out that this isn't correct.

' The rule book and protocol also appeared to be directly based off of the Mormon religion (no caffeine etc.)'


Even though most people think LDS can't drink caffeine, it isn't the case. While the LDS do have stricter rules with stuff like coffee and tea, the Word of Wisdom doesn't mention caffeine.

Maybe you are right, but my parents are devout Mormons and seem to think that it covers caffeine. What it really says is "strong drink", which can be interpreted however the leaders want to interpret it. I'm guessing that one of them said it included caffeine at one point.


Your parents are mistaken.

http://lds.org/study/topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng

Though one could certainly place it in the "harmful" category, it is not forbidden by LDS doctrine.
And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get is one trick: rational thinking; but, when you're good and crazy, ooohoohoohoohoooo, the sky is the limit!
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
May 28 2011 09:14 GMT
#141
OP wants the discussion to be as civil as possible with a blatant flame bait topic.
XicalaAera
Profile Joined December 2009
United States51 Posts
May 28 2011 09:25 GMT
#142
For the record this is not the work of real Christians, this is a cult. I am, as a Christian, disgusted at these people.
“Ability is nothing without opportunity.”
Cyba
Profile Joined June 2010
Romania221 Posts
May 28 2011 09:54 GMT
#143
The funny part is, if the parents themselves would drag their kids around in handcuffs and verbally abuse them that way somebody would prolly take them away.

But if they're sent to camp and somebody else handles the abuse it's ok ? o0
I'm not evil, I'm just good lookin
Drium
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States888 Posts
May 28 2011 11:54 GMT
#144
Wow this is horrifying and the mother is a truly awful person. If I had been put in one of those places after I had "graduated" I would have gone back with an AK.
KwanROLLLLLLLED
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
May 28 2011 12:00 GMT
#145
On May 28 2011 17:40 gibb wrote:
So when are we burning this shit?

EDIT; I'm probably not the right person to hold the torch since I'm banned from entering the U.S.
But someone damn well should, and it's a miracle that none of them kids hasn't gone and painted the inside red already...



Out of interest, care to say how you got banned?
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
May 28 2011 12:02 GMT
#146
On May 28 2011 18:25 XicalaAera wrote:
For the record this is not the work of real Christians, this is a cult. I am, as a Christian, disgusted at these people.


Ooh i didn't know we had someone that could excommunicate people on the forums.
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
May 28 2011 12:04 GMT
#147
On May 28 2011 11:51 Starfox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 11:43 Deadeight wrote:
On May 28 2011 11:43 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland


I tried to verify if this statement was true but when I searched "germany gay camp" all I got were a bunch of stories from the 1940's...


Godwin's Law...

Well, the story reminded me of re-education camps, but still his comment does in no way satisfy Godwin's Law.+ Show Spoiler +
Seems like you throw that around like Gretorp does with 'metagame'


Did you understand his comment?
ibutoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Australia341 Posts
May 28 2011 12:40 GMT
#148
On May 28 2011 21:00 Deadeight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 17:40 gibb wrote:
So when are we burning this shit?

EDIT; I'm probably not the right person to hold the torch since I'm banned from entering the U.S.
But someone damn well should, and it's a miracle that none of them kids hasn't gone and painted the inside red already...



Out of interest, care to say how you got banned?


Might not be specific to gibb, but anyone with a criminal record has no hope of entering America if any of the charges are violent or drug related.
Nada got Yooned
Greatness
Profile Joined May 2011
United States450 Posts
May 28 2011 12:48 GMT
#149
This article totally reminds me of this South Park Episode: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s11e02-cartman-sucks

If anyone has 20 minutes of free time, I highly recommend it. It's funny because South Park is totally doing a satire on it, but sad at the same time since it's true.
Foooky
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia205 Posts
May 28 2011 12:51 GMT
#150
On May 28 2011 17:53 Doctorbeat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 14:36 Bosko wrote:
In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.

From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman


Made me laugh. They don't give psychiatric meds to people who aren't broken.

The way they took her to the schooled sounded like the worst part. That's not gonna help a mentally unstable kid who already has issues with their parents any.


Most antidepressants are SSRI's.

Show nested quote +
If an SSRI medication is suddenly discontinued, it may produce both somatic and psychological withdrawal symptoms, a phenomenon known as "SSRI discontinuation syndrome" (Tamam & Ozpoyraz, 2002). When the decision is made to stop taking antidepressants it is common practice to "wean" off of them by slowly decreasing the dose over a period of several weeks. Most cases of discontinuation syndrome last between one and four weeks.


It was a large medical mistake for these alleged (mental) 'health professionals' to not have taken her medicine with them.


Meh, SSRIs dont necessarily need to be tapered off if they are low dose. She didn't complain about withdrawal symptoms so more than likely she was fine. I don't know about America but non-drug measures i.e. therapy sounds like the right way to go, but perhaps her parents chose the wrong camp. Anyhow I have never understood how these people get themselves into the situations where they get raped - I would not necessarily trust anyone to go into a place alone...
Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
May 28 2011 14:31 GMT
#151
Anyone care to elaborate on the legality of these kind of camps?
I know elsewhere in the World this wouldn't fly due to child abuse alone.

Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
Hedgehog
Profile Joined May 2011
Macedonia73 Posts
May 28 2011 14:40 GMT
#152
I can not believe that my 1st post would be on a topic like this. But I have a thing or 3 to say about it. This article disgusts me. I too was raised in a broken home with 2 alcoholic leaving me with lots of psychological scars and to this day I can hear the screams of my mother as my dad was beating her. Because of this I get totally furious when I witness/hear/read things like this. And let me get this straight, it's not their religious set of rules they abide but them wanting to IMPRINT it on minors in a very fragile phase of their emotional develpment with means like I've read here. I myself am atheist but i have Orthodox Cristian, Catholic, Muslim and even Methodist friends who would be as outraged as I am. What baffles me the most are 3 things. How she was taken, Her mother's attitude towards the issue and the treatment itself. I didn't go through all the article but I wonder why any other member of her family, or friends didn't try to raise publicity on the issue. Maybe they were in the same fucked up mindset as her mother was. 2nd, if some1 barges in and abducts a minor, no matter the reasons it's a freaking 5-15 years prison time here in Macedonia. And I wonder how the institution thinks they'll 'help' by using the same things the person is trying to recover from. And I am amazed how no1 tried to raze that place to the ground yet.

I agree that leaving an unstable person unattended could lead to tragedies like school shootings and other utterly bad things. But no matter what, you can't reshape a person's set of values after the 14th year of age since that's when a personality of a person is fully developed. Trying to do so instead of helping the person reshape him/herself would be catastrophic to that person's emotional/psychological well being. And in extreme cases it would lead to some gruesome events.

Every person raised in an unstable environment copes in his or her own way,and to be totally honest if i didn't have my brother to help me through those times I'd prolly wouldn't be here right now. And if I was subjected to this kind of treatment I would be serving a lifetime for mass murder. It's beyond belief how can places like these be allowed to exist in the states a country we look up to become. I admire this girl for being able to keep going after that, And if 1 of my girl friends told me that she was raped instead of telling every1 I'd prolly be rearranging that thing's skeletal structure.

And no this isn't USA's fault, but people who condone this kind of treatment and won't bring the system's attention into it. I really doubt this 'institution' could get away with every abduction they did totally ignoring the human right's and more importantly the rights of the child.
.
Divide et impera
Chylo
Profile Joined May 2010
United States220 Posts
May 28 2011 14:47 GMT
#153
Interesting that everyone accepts this story as 100% true as retold by the person. There's been a lot of similar types of stories posted like this on the internet in order to create viral campaigns for fictional authors, (and designed to create a lot of outrage - on purpose) not saying this is one necessarily but it's just comical how everyone assumes everything some random text on the internet is the complete story coming from an anonymous author, and then go on to immediately blame religion, the usa, etc etc
bjwithbraces
Profile Joined April 2010
United States549 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 15:18:09
May 28 2011 15:15 GMT
#154
On May 28 2011 23:47 Chylo wrote:
Interesting that everyone accepts this story as 100% true as retold by the person. There's been a lot of similar types of stories posted like this on the internet in order to create viral campaigns for fictional authors, (and designed to create a lot of outrage - on purpose) not saying this is one necessarily but it's just comical how everyone assumes everything some random text on the internet is the complete story coming from an anonymous author, and then go on to immediately blame religion, the usa, etc etc


You know, towards the end as I was reading it, I was like "Hm, this is pretty well written". That doesn't mean much, except to me it didn't fit the story it was telling. Really good diction and rhetoric, almost makes you wonder. I wasn't going to comment about it further or post, but I saw your post and figured I had to now :p [e] However, I personally don't think it's the case you're arguing for.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/unipolarity/inventory/
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
May 28 2011 15:18 GMT
#155
On May 28 2011 23:47 Chylo wrote:
Interesting that everyone accepts this story as 100% true as retold by the person. There's been a lot of similar types of stories posted like this on the internet in order to create viral campaigns for fictional authors, (and designed to create a lot of outrage - on purpose) not saying this is one necessarily but it's just comical how everyone assumes everything some random text on the internet is the complete story coming from an anonymous author, and then go on to immediately blame religion, the usa, etc etc


it's a lawsuite ......

seriously
Jiffymix
Profile Joined April 2010
United States43 Posts
May 28 2011 16:17 GMT
#156
Don't understand people who say things like 'only in the USA'. Murder, rape, child abduction... all sorts of terrible shit happens all over the world. The USA is a great country, but obviously far from perfect.

Evil exists. We shouldn't tolerate it, and in fact we should do all we can to resist it, but we must also try to understand how and why it exists in an individual. That individual most likely grew up in an environment that encouraged these sorts of beliefs, and he/she is simply the result of that flawed system.

What is important is that people persevere, resist the beliefs that he/she grew up around, and make their own choice to hopefully do the right thing. We shouldn't just accept that a person who grew up in an evil environment grows up to be a serial killer, but help them through their past difficulties, give them the opportunities to persevere and grow into a good human being.
ahr28
Profile Joined May 2011
6 Posts
May 28 2011 16:23 GMT
#157
This is absolutely terrible. I have done my own research on the subject, but I can tell you it is hard. Why ? Because first of all you dont know what is true and what is false. Second of all, that which you believe, is true, and I can tell you that some of the documents that I personally own concerning brainwashing, programming, etc in cults is absolutely MIND-BOGGLING - to say the least.
It is the most filthy thing I have read in my life, and I'm not sure whether I was better of not having found the document in the first place. That is also the reason that I am not linking those documents here.

Concerning the WWASP, I am not sure what we can do to stop them. It's cruel, and above all (this is not coming from a religious person, but I do believe in a higher foce) it is NOT an "act" of God or neither God's way.
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-28 23:01:35
May 28 2011 23:01 GMT
#158
-accident-
Too Busy to Troll!
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
May 28 2011 23:05 GMT
#159
On May 28 2011 23:31 Armathai wrote:
Anyone care to elaborate on the legality of these kind of camps?
I know elsewhere in the World this wouldn't fly due to child abuse alone.


In every country, bullshit work. They can just say something along the lines of:

"It's not abuse, it's behavioral modification. They're meant to uplift children whom their parents believe have engaged in negative, destructive, troublesome, if not illegal, actions before. It's in no way religious, as it cares for the general welfare of any child in need of help.
It uses a well calculated curriculum and support system with the addition of well-trained, professional therapists, a buddy-system, and respected authority figures."

And no one will have shit on them, as long as parents are willing to send their kids there.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
May 28 2011 23:23 GMT
#160
On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.


I don't think it's possible for me to agree any more than I do with this statement.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Alokiya
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States648 Posts
May 28 2011 23:32 GMT
#161
This is sickening beyond belief. The fact that ANYONE would allow this is happen to their children makes me angry just thinking about it. Calling this a religious program would be like calling David Koresh a good christian. The fact that religions are perverted into things like this is one of the saddest things imaginable.
C'mon my guppies, swim up my stream! - Day[9]
KCrazy
Profile Joined August 2009
United States278 Posts
May 29 2011 00:15 GMT
#162
This was one of the most upsetting things I've read in a while.
"We need alcohol" ~Stork
manicshock
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada741 Posts
May 29 2011 01:58 GMT
#163
On May 28 2011 15:03 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 05:46 TreeDome wrote:
Don't agree with anything that happened, and it is a terrible way to treat your children.

But just pointing out that this isn't correct.

' The rule book and protocol also appeared to be directly based off of the Mormon religion (no caffeine etc.)'


Even though most people think LDS can't drink caffeine, it isn't the case. While the LDS do have stricter rules with stuff like coffee and tea, the Word of Wisdom doesn't mention caffeine.

Maybe you are right, but my parents are devout Mormons and seem to think that it covers caffeine. What it really says is "strong drink", which can be interpreted however the leaders want to interpret it. I'm guessing that one of them said it included caffeine at one point.


The idea behind the word of wisdom is that it is designed for both the weakest and the strongest. It isn't banned explicitly but it can be interpreted to include that by virtue of "hot drinks" meaning tea and coffee which both have caffeine in it. Strong drink is included with wine, saying alcohol.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
matjlav
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany2435 Posts
May 29 2011 03:51 GMT
#164
I really hope this is mostly sensationalized.

If it's true, I'm not a violent person by any stretch of the imagination, but I would just love a chance to smack the shit out of her mother. That is straight up child abuse.
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
May 29 2011 04:36 GMT
#165
A friend of mine went to a facility like this. She's still horribly horribly scarred. It's horrific, and makes me so angry at people.
ampson
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2355 Posts
May 29 2011 04:42 GMT
#166
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 04:51:45
May 29 2011 04:49 GMT
#167
--- Nuked ---
Bunnypanda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States103 Posts
May 29 2011 05:03 GMT
#168
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
May 29 2011 05:08 GMT
#169
--- Nuked ---
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 05:10 GMT
#170
On May 29 2011 14:08 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

Mormons actually accept just about everyone into their religion (they draw the line at mass murderers, around there at least). In the case of gays, they still expect them to seek "help" or accept "help" (usually in the form of counseling) to in order "improve" their "situation". I believe they will really only excommunicate you if you are very obvious about it and don't try to change it for a very long time.

Yes that's a lot better...still shows they are blatantly bigoted and completely ignorant of what homosexuality actually is, by suggesting it's even possible to "change" it.
manicshock
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada741 Posts
May 29 2011 05:14 GMT
#171
On May 29 2011 14:10 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:08 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

Mormons actually accept just about everyone into their religion (they draw the line at mass murderers, around there at least). In the case of gays, they still expect them to seek "help" or accept "help" (usually in the form of counseling) to in order "improve" their "situation". I believe they will really only excommunicate you if you are very obvious about it and don't try to change it for a very long time.

Yes that's a lot better...still shows they are blatantly bigoted and completely ignorant of what homosexuality actually is, by suggesting it's even possible to "change" it.

God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve I suppose. You can continue with your rant on religion, we'll continue telling you otherwise.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 05:17 GMT
#172
On May 29 2011 14:14 manicshock wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:10 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:08 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

Mormons actually accept just about everyone into their religion (they draw the line at mass murderers, around there at least). In the case of gays, they still expect them to seek "help" or accept "help" (usually in the form of counseling) to in order "improve" their "situation". I believe they will really only excommunicate you if you are very obvious about it and don't try to change it for a very long time.

Yes that's a lot better...still shows they are blatantly bigoted and completely ignorant of what homosexuality actually is, by suggesting it's even possible to "change" it.

God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve I suppose. You can continue with your rant on religion, we'll continue telling you otherwise.

I was "ranting" more about homophobia, not my fault many religions happen to suffer from it.
mierin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4943 Posts
May 29 2011 05:20 GMT
#173
This is completely terrible...elitist Europeans can raise their noses to this all day, but I'm just sad stuff like this happens anywhere in the world.
JD, Stork, Calm, Hyuk Fighting!
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
May 29 2011 05:27 GMT
#174
--- Nuked ---
ampson
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2355 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 05:46:29
May 29 2011 05:32 GMT
#175
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:

That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.


Actually, I guess you are right. These bigoted people cite religion as the reason why they abuse homosexuals. However, this is FLAWED execution of religion. Show me this place and I will find so many violations of religious doctrine that it will be obvious these people were simple bigots using religion as a justification for their immoral behavior. These people represent religion like combatEX represents progaming.
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 05:38:05
May 29 2011 05:37 GMT
#176

I’d also like to mention how many times I saw staff and administration, tackle and restrain children when it was completely unnecessary. So many times I saw kids simply refuse to go to gym class or get out of bed and as punishment they were violently tackled, restrained in a painful position, and taken to a small isolation room where they were usually watched by two or three staff members. This was also what they did when a child harmed themselves. This method is extremely violent, and I remember at least one incident that happened when I was there where they tackled a girl and restrained her face down against the ground and as a result she got rug burn on her face to the point that she was bleeding and had visible scabs on her face. Another time a girl shared that being tackled and restrained gave her flashbacks of a rape she’d experienced, to which the program director responded that he felt no remorse for it and that it was really her fault for doing what ever she’d done to be restrained. You could argue that this might be appropriate in cases where a kid is being violent towards others, but from what I saw, more often than not, this was absolutely not the case and the child being restrained was not being violent. In addition to tackling and restraint being (in my humble opinion) immoral, it is unsafe, and this has been proven. If you look on the website for the Coalition Against Institutionalized Child Abuse, you can see a long list of deaths that have occurred in “behavioral modification” facilities not unlike Cross Creek as a result of tackling and restraint. http://www.caica.org/RESTRAINTS Death List.htm


This doesn't just sound morally wrong, it sounds like its illegal. At the very least it ought to be.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 05:41:39
May 29 2011 05:39 GMT
#177
On May 29 2011 14:27 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:10 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:08 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

Mormons actually accept just about everyone into their religion (they draw the line at mass murderers, around there at least). In the case of gays, they still expect them to seek "help" or accept "help" (usually in the form of counseling) to in order "improve" their "situation". I believe they will really only excommunicate you if you are very obvious about it and don't try to change it for a very long time.

Yes that's a lot better...still shows they are blatantly bigoted and completely ignorant of what homosexuality actually is, by suggesting it's even possible to "change" it.

I must say that I am also quite ignorant about whether or not people are "born gay". No clue really. I also admit that I don't really feel comfortable interacting with gay people (I have had less than pleasant encounters in the past). I would never bother them about it unless they first bother me about it (i.e. hitting on me) though.

Anyways, if I may offer some insight.

As mentioned earlier, Mormons hold Family as one of their very top priorities. For obvious reasons, gay people cannot make babies which in Mormon's eyes disrupts the whole Family process (they believe this Family thing to be integral to "gods plan"). So if you put yourself in their shoes for a moment (bear with me here), it's not hard to conclude (from some perspectives) that it doesn't make sense that God would create people who can only be gay and therefore cannot form a "Family".

This makes a lot of sense from a limited perspective, but I could poke holes in it (which I wont bother to right now).

Even from this "limited perspective" it would only hinder their cause, because if it doesn't make sense within your religion for God to create gay people and he did, that means your religion doesn't make sense. Of course homophobes often try to write it off as a choice, or a "defiance of God" ,basically pick any insane rationalization.

Also some basic logic would lead you to conclude that people don't choose to be gay. Did you choose who you are attracted to? Do you choose what food you like? Obviously not, it's how you were born.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 05:41:10
May 29 2011 05:39 GMT
#178
--- Nuked ---
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 05:42 GMT
#179
On May 29 2011 14:39 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:32 ampson wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:

That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.


Actually, I guess you are right. These bigoted people cite religion as the reason why they abuse homosexuals. However, this is FLAWED religion. Show me this place and I will find so many violations of religious doctrine that it will be obvious these people were simple bigots using religion as a justification for their immoral behavior. These people represent religion like combatEX represents progaming.

As far as I'm concerned every religion is flawed.

If you take the bolded sentence literally, you're just saying the whole religion is flawed (and therefore pretty much saying nothing IMO).

What I think you really mean is that it is flawed (i.e. hypocritical) execution of religious ideals.

Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:39 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:27 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:10 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:08 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

Mormons actually accept just about everyone into their religion (they draw the line at mass murderers, around there at least). In the case of gays, they still expect them to seek "help" or accept "help" (usually in the form of counseling) to in order "improve" their "situation". I believe they will really only excommunicate you if you are very obvious about it and don't try to change it for a very long time.

Yes that's a lot better...still shows they are blatantly bigoted and completely ignorant of what homosexuality actually is, by suggesting it's even possible to "change" it.

I must say that I am also quite ignorant about whether or not people are "born gay". No clue really. I also admit that I don't really feel comfortable interacting with gay people (I have had less than pleasant encounters in the past). I would never bother them about it unless they first bother me about it (i.e. hitting on me) though.

Anyways, if I may offer some insight.

As mentioned earlier, Mormons hold Family as one of their very top priorities. For obvious reasons, gay people cannot make babies which in Mormon's eyes disrupts the whole Family process (they believe this Family thing to be integral to "gods plan"). So if you put yourself in their shoes for a moment (bear with me here), it's not hard to conclude (from some perspectives) that it doesn't make sense that God would create people who can only be gay and therefore cannot form a "Family".

This makes a lot of sense from a limited perspective, but I could poke holes in it (which I wont bother to right now).

Even from this "limited perspective" it would only hinder their cause, because if it doesn't make sense within your religion for God to create gay people and he did, that means your religion doesn't make sense. Of course homophobes often try to write it off as a choice, or a "defiance of God" ,basically pick any insane rationalization.

They do not believe that God created "gay people". They believe that people sometimes choose to be gay.

Yes, which is an insane rationalization.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 05:53:51
May 29 2011 05:45 GMT
#180
--- Nuked ---
ampson
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2355 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 05:45:53
May 29 2011 05:45 GMT
#181
oops, mistake
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 05:59:33
May 29 2011 05:58 GMT
#182
--- Nuked ---
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 06:01 GMT
#183
On May 29 2011 14:58 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:39 Olinim wrote:
Also some basic logic would lead you to conclude that people don't choose to be gay. Did you choose who you are attracted to? Do you choose what food you like? Obviously not, it's how you were born.

I don't see how it's impossible that there were factors/experiences after you were born that lead you to becoming gay. Maybe it's not like this for everyone, but I can guarantee you it is like that for some people.

Well maybe there were some factors that caused you to become straight, perhaps you need some treatment. What factors do you suggest would completely shift a person's sexuality?
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 06:13:24
May 29 2011 06:09 GMT
#184
--- Nuked ---
RifleCow
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada637 Posts
May 29 2011 06:15 GMT
#185
Honestly, I don't even understand why it matters if its a choice or not. Only to religion does this issue matter. People should just be free to be homosexual whether it is by choice or they are born with it.
hohoho
johanngrunt
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Hong Kong1555 Posts
May 29 2011 06:16 GMT
#186
What did I just read?

This is the 2nd story this week of parents being shitty to their kids on TL.

For shame, for shame.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 06:16 GMT
#187
On May 29 2011 15:09 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 15:01 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:58 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:39 Olinim wrote:
Also some basic logic would lead you to conclude that people don't choose to be gay. Did you choose who you are attracted to? Do you choose what food you like? Obviously not, it's how you were born.

I don't see how it's impossible that there were factors/experiences after you were born that lead you to becoming gay. Maybe it's not like this for everyone, but I can guarantee you it is like that for some people.

Well maybe there were some factors that caused you to become straight, perhaps you need some treatment. What factors do you suggest would completely shift a person's sexuality?

Excuse me but I never suggested that a gay person needs treatment, not sure why you're suggesting that I need treatment.

The answer to your question is simple: horrible and/or psychologically damaging heterosexual activities can lead someone to not enjoy heterosexual activities which leads to homosexual activities as a way to release tension. It doesn't even need to be like that either. Maybe you've just always had bad experiences with almost every person of the opposite sex. It can also be a cultural thing or something learned from siblings, etc. It can also simply be all you ever knew (If you look at my last post on the last page you can see that we don't really have an instinctive aversion to it, and you will also see that liking it doesn't necessarily make you only homosexual, you might just be bi which is actually reasonably normal). Any combination of these things will do really. I'm sure there are more.


Bullshit. Show me an actual scientific study that shows that being raped causes you to become gay. Why would homosexual activity relieve stress from a traumatic sexual experience just because it was heterosexual? And having bad experiences with someone of the opposite sex has nothing to do with their sexuality, I could absolutely hate a chick but still want to have sex with her. You don't learn sexuality from a sibling seriously that is freaking absurd. These are all absurd reasons trying to make it sound like its a symptom, a result of some trauma or something and it's not.
Ropid
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany3557 Posts
May 29 2011 06:18 GMT
#188
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.
"My goal is to replace my soul with coffee and become immortal."
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 06:25:29
May 29 2011 06:18 GMT
#189
--- Nuked ---
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 06:32:16
May 29 2011 06:29 GMT
#190
On May 29 2011 15:18 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 15:15 RifleCow wrote:
Honestly, I don't even understand why it matters if its a choice or not. Only to religion does this issue matter. People should just be free to be homosexual whether it is by choice or they are born with it.

I agree.

Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 15:16 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:09 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:01 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:58 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:39 Olinim wrote:
Also some basic logic would lead you to conclude that people don't choose to be gay. Did you choose who you are attracted to? Do you choose what food you like? Obviously not, it's how you were born.

I don't see how it's impossible that there were factors/experiences after you were born that lead you to becoming gay. Maybe it's not like this for everyone, but I can guarantee you it is like that for some people.

Well maybe there were some factors that caused you to become straight, perhaps you need some treatment. What factors do you suggest would completely shift a person's sexuality?

Excuse me but I never suggested that a gay person needs treatment, not sure why you're suggesting that I need treatment.

The answer to your question is simple: horrible and/or psychologically damaging heterosexual activities can lead someone to not enjoy heterosexual activities which leads to homosexual activities as a way to release tension. It doesn't even need to be like that either. Maybe you've just always had bad experiences with almost every person of the opposite sex. It can also be a cultural thing or something learned from siblings, etc. It can also simply be all you ever knew (If you look at my last post on the last page you can see that we don't really have an instinctive aversion to it, and you will also see that liking it doesn't necessarily make you only homosexual, you might just be bi which is actually reasonably normal). Any combination of these things will do really. I'm sure there are more.


Bullshit. Show me an actual scientific study that shows that being raped causes you to become gay. Why would homosexual activity relieve stress from a traumatic sexual experience just because it was heterosexual? And having bad experiences with someone of the opposite sex has nothing to do with their sexuality, I could absolutely hate a chick but still want to have sex with her. You don't learn sexuality from a sibling seriously that is freaking absurd. These are all absurd reasons trying to make it sound like its a symptom, a result of some trauma or something and it's not.

Don't really need scientific studies when I have common sense, and, oh, I don't know, the "gay people" telling me from their own mouths? Many people already know that these are factors for some people to turn gay. Notice how I said "some people"; if I did not outright say it, then I at least implied multiple times that this does not include every gay person's reason for turning gay. You seem to act like I'm trying to explain why all gay people are gay, when I am really just explaining why some gay people are gay.

I like how you blatantly ignore this part
Show nested quote +
It can also simply be all you ever knew (If you look at my last post on the last page you can see that we don't really have an instinctive aversion to it, and you will also see that liking it doesn't necessarily make you only homosexual, you might just be bi which is actually reasonably normal).


Are you trolling or are you just upset? I understand either way, but either way maybe it's time for you to take a break for a bit. (actually on that note time to play some games; i might come back to this thread tmrw).

Why would I believe you even talk to a gay person when you already admitted your discomforted by their very presence? "not include every gay person's reason for turning gay." This is what I'm talking about, they didn't have a reason to TURN GAY, they simply are.
You admitted your own ignorance and bias on the subject in your very first post.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5608 Posts
May 29 2011 06:36 GMT
#191
He's not dealing in absolutes. You keep getting upset at absolute claims that you think he's making. He quantified it perfectly well. The population of Earth is huge and it's not unfathomable that some people arrive at their lifestyle by choice in the same way that we have a wardrobe preference or choose our dietary habits.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
valheru
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia966 Posts
May 29 2011 07:19 GMT
#192
As unethical as it is there are parts of humanity that we are just better off with out. The people who opened and ran this cross creek, we would be better off without them.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
SweetAs
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
New Zealand290 Posts
May 29 2011 07:25 GMT
#193
Gotta love America!!

Lol such a terrible place

User was temp banned for this post.
CJ.sAviOr : oGsjookTo : mTwDIMAGA
HaXxorIzed
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Australia8434 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 13:34:29
May 29 2011 07:37 GMT
#194
Perhaps the most depressing thing about the thread is what it hasn't said and hasn't done, but has doubtless made us all consider. It's both uplifting and fantastic that her story has got other people openly thinking about and criticizing this type of institutionalized child abuse and bringing together their support / stories, but there are many more out there. Which raises the question of how many children / families / social circles are deeply damaged by this, to a point where they cannot even begin to move on and recover. I would personally be very interested to see a lot more hard data on what effects these camps have and how many of their 'graduates' develop problems - particularly given a lot of these camps can be in states / areas of strong religious belief which might make investigating ... difficult. As well as dozens of inquiries and more than a few arrests, that would be nice to see as well.

The doubly sickening thing of course is that there are families who set this in motion. Many of those families are doubtless attracted by the notion of the camps as an inciting way to 'fix' their children. Seems like a sad, sad trap, one designed to suck the gullible and the vulnerable in.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/HaXxorIzed
dOofuS
Profile Joined January 2009
United States342 Posts
May 29 2011 07:41 GMT
#195
On May 28 2011 06:59 tdynasty wrote:
Let's not be fooled here. Religion is not the problem.

But rather the extremist "Evangelical/Morman" Point of view. I have seen many just insanely shocking things from these kinds of people. That's why this is actually believable.


I hope when referencing extremist 'mormons' you aren't including the general LDS church membership. One of the unfortunate realities of being tagged with the 'mormon' nickname is that it associates members of the Latter-Day Saint church (like myself) with those who still practice polygamy, and commit serious crimes in the name of God.
schmeebs
Profile Joined August 2010
United States115 Posts
May 29 2011 08:07 GMT
#196
The problem with the latter-day saint church is its just as corrupt as every other organized religion and has just as many scandals that are just as damning (Catholic priest debacles, issues with fundamentalist muslims, etc). Unfortuneatly 'The Church' has way too much power over the local government which allows these camps to exist in utah and flaunt many concepts of basic decency.

Yes mormons no longer practice polygamy, but thats not the only thing in the history of the LDS church that is damning. Ezra Taft Benson scandal, Cain doctrines, and other such things
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 08:30:40
May 29 2011 08:29 GMT
#197
being morman means you believe a fairy tale told via a picture book.

I lived in Utah (moab to be precise) for many many years, and I can say from personal experience that the Mormon world is a rather scary one filled with wonderful little things like an upstanding Mormon man in the community killing his wife, telling the police, and having the police not do any investigations. This kind of manipulation happens frequently and it's rather disgusting.

Just the absurd notion that having more material wealth puts you into a better position in heaven is enough to show that LDS are bat shit insane

Honestly the only word that describes them is a cult.

more ontopic though, the biggest thing here is that it's 100% voluntary. That scares me more than anything. A parent would willing put their child though this....just sickening.

Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
Gingerninja
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1339 Posts
May 29 2011 09:03 GMT
#198
On May 28 2011 14:36 Bosko wrote:
Made me laugh. They don't give psychiatric meds to people who aren't broken.


Actually they do, that's another big problem this day and age. Any kid has an issue with anything, the doctor says they must have ADD ADHD or something, and prescribes them a shit load of drugs which does nothing to solve the root of the problem.. such as I don't know... shitty parenting? All these kid's zoned out on "meds" when they don't need them at all, they cause as many problems as they solve.
戦いの中に答えはある
dOofuS
Profile Joined January 2009
United States342 Posts
May 29 2011 09:21 GMT
#199
On May 29 2011 17:29 N3rV[Green] wrote:
being morman means you believe a fairy tale told via a picture book.

I lived in Utah (moab to be precise) for many many years, and I can say from personal experience that the Mormon world is a rather scary one filled with wonderful little things like an upstanding Mormon man in the community killing his wife, telling the police, and having the police not do any investigations. This kind of manipulation happens frequently and it's rather disgusting.

Just the absurd notion that having more material wealth puts you into a better position in heaven is enough to show that LDS are bat shit insane

Honestly the only word that describes them is a cult.

more ontopic though, the biggest thing here is that it's 100% voluntary. That scares me more than anything. A parent would willing put their child though this....just sickening.



Bigoted, IMO.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17267 Posts
May 29 2011 09:22 GMT
#200
You really want to get scared? Watch Jesus Camp.

Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Crazyeyes
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1342 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 11:12:39
May 29 2011 11:12 GMT
#201
"Warlocks are enemies of God! Had it been in the Old Testament, Harry Potter would have been put to death!"

Stupid lady. They would have burned him alive, and he would have simply put a Flame-Freezing charm on the fire.

Seriously though, that video makes me so sad.

People keep blaming Religion, but it seems that nobody understands that people are just fucking stupid. It doesn't matter if there is religion or not. There will always be pepole with stupid fucking beliefs and will act on them, just as the religious fenatics do.

I think it's unfair to blame religion when most religions can really be boiled down to 'Love God, be a good person.' Sure, you may think the 'Love God' part is stupid, but why do you care? As long as they aren't forcing it down your throat...




As for the OP, it's just as bad. I would have faught hard. They would have to drag me there unconciously, and I'd like to think I'd take at least one of them down with me.

As soon as I got out I'd tell my mother what I think of her, gather up my shit, and never talk to her again for sending me to such a place.
Seriously, telling her that she fucking deserved to be raped? That she asked for it? Fuck you, lady. I hope she realized what a terrible thing she did, and I hope it fucking scars her for life.
WeeEEeeEEEeeEEEeeeEEee!!
Metaphysic
Profile Joined September 2010
63 Posts
May 29 2011 13:18 GMT
#202
These "re-education" camps are not that uncommon in the US, particularly in the south. They've been around for a while; I'm pretty sure you can even google some videos that people have taken on some of their sessions.
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
May 29 2011 13:22 GMT
#203
Wow... I never thought this kind of facility really exist. What is more disturbing, though, is the fact that such crazy parents actually exist.

About the religion thing. It's just the effect religion has on stupid people. If religions didn't exist, something else would have a similar effect on them. They're just stupid people.

People are really so strange..... sigh...
Ender985
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Spain910 Posts
May 29 2011 13:44 GMT
#204
These facilities really seem to be aiming to become mass murderer factories. The whole story reads like the background for a vigilante superhero.

I sincerely hope that all these criminals, including the coward thugs that kidnapp children in the middle of the night, are properly judged and imprisoned. Before any of their old "pupils" can get to them.
Member of the Pirate Party - direct democracy, institutional transparency, and freedom of information
Witten
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2094 Posts
May 29 2011 13:47 GMT
#205
On May 29 2011 17:29 N3rV[Green] wrote:

Just the absurd notion that having more material wealth puts you into a better position in heaven is enough to show that LDS are bat shit insane

Honestly the only word that describes them is a cult.



Not an LDS belief.
Brood War Forever / NA's premiere Shadow Shaman player / Courier Collector / Bot Game Champion / Highly amateur Mystical Ninja Goemon Speedrunner
Reaper9
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1724 Posts
May 29 2011 13:58 GMT
#206
...My country is in such empathetic shambles.
I post only when my brain works.
Hedgehog
Profile Joined May 2011
Macedonia73 Posts
May 29 2011 14:11 GMT
#207
Whoa on the video, even for a biblical country where st.Paul resided(so my christian friends tend to believe) it's not this extreme. I'm speechless
Divide et impera
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
May 29 2011 14:16 GMT
#208
Yea, I can totally see some of the kids coming out from the camp becoming serial killers one day going back and killing off all their captors.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17267 Posts
May 29 2011 14:36 GMT
#209
This video is nothing. You should watch the entire documentary (it shows their fundraising, leaders, etc.).

People are sheep.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 14:59:36
May 29 2011 14:52 GMT
#210
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.
ThreeAcross
Profile Joined January 2011
172 Posts
May 29 2011 15:11 GMT
#211
On May 29 2011 22:47 Witten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 17:29 N3rV[Green] wrote:

Just the absurd notion that having more material wealth puts you into a better position in heaven is enough to show that LDS are bat shit insane

Honestly the only word that describes them is a cult.



Not an LDS belief.



I guess I am at the back of the pack then.

Never heard this, and it amazes me that people with so little knowledge of the church act like what they say is fact.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 15:17 GMT
#212
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
Keniji
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands2569 Posts
May 29 2011 15:46 GMT
#213
It's not really a question of religious vs. non-religious. There are defnitely non-religious parents who don't agree with the lifestyle of their kids. They either learn to live with it or they abandon their kid because they can't handle it. I think nobody can argue about that.
(Tho I'd say most intolerant parents are very conservative, and conservatives do have a religion most of the time.)

I think the most important difference is that die-hard religious people have some "irrational" fear (hell or something similiar) which makes them do horrible stuff BECAUSE they love their child. Because they want to protect it. Those parents are not terrible persons, but the fear makes them do stuff that that definitely is. Atheist parents most likely don't have such a fear.

Those camps should indeed be forbidden (they are illegal already?).
BackHo
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand400 Posts
May 29 2011 15:56 GMT
#214
On May 29 2011 23:36 Manit0u wrote:
This video is nothing. You should watch the entire documentary (it shows their fundraising, leaders, etc.).

People are sheep.


The entire documentary is nothing. Just join any Church with more than say 1,000 in their Sunday morning congregation. Generally the larger the Church, the more hardline approach they need to take towards issues such as homosexuality in order to keep any following (as when there is inconsistency the Church numbers break/separate into factions). It's a double-edged sword for them really, because they have to compromise freedom of thought with attendance (attendance = money).
Zaphid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1860 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 16:01:43
May 29 2011 16:00 GMT
#215
Well, looks like there is a good reason why most of these religious groups had to run away from Europe originally.

Still, this has more to do with people not using common sense and being sheep, religion is just the way it manifests. Kind of depressing when you think about it, we have probably the most freedom in the history of humankind ever, yet people are afraid to live a life they want. They'd rather bend over to someone else's standards. Extending that to people you can control (kids) is pathetic and should be illegal. There's all this talk about protecting children before they are born, yet you can fuck up your kid's life way more after it is born, really.
I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP
RA
Profile Joined October 2008
Latvia791 Posts
May 29 2011 16:05 GMT
#216
Didn't read it all, but got the general idea. Taking someone by force like that is fascism.
Euronyme
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden3804 Posts
May 29 2011 16:07 GMT
#217
I think it's kind of funny that the camps are run by mormon beliefs. Arn't they OK with.. what's it called. multimarriage? Where one man marries several women. Doesn't that in the long run mean that the women are also married to eachother, making them gay?
I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen.
Fubi
Profile Joined March 2011
2228 Posts
May 29 2011 16:08 GMT
#218
90% of these controversial threads can be summed up with one word: America.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 16:37:26
May 29 2011 16:10 GMT
#219
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it...

I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language...

We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all.

Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
May 29 2011 16:37 GMT
#220
that made me so angry
dr Helvetica <3
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 16:50:49
May 29 2011 16:47 GMT
#221
On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it...

I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language...

We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all.

Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.

You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
May 29 2011 16:53 GMT
#222
On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it...

I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language...

We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all.

Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.

You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 16:56 GMT
#223
On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it...

I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language...

We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all.

Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.

You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.

What it says to me is they only use it to support their own agenda.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
May 29 2011 16:58 GMT
#224
On May 30 2011 01:56 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it...

I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language...

We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all.

Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.

You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.

What it says to me is they only use it to support their own agenda.


Right, so it's the people's fault, not the religion. That's all I was really saying. Hateful people probably would have justified it some other stupid way like the Nazis.
PlaGuE_R
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
France1151 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 17:17:06
May 29 2011 17:10 GMT
#225
someone should post this on 4chan and get anonymous to destroy that shit! seriously, if they can take on the church of scientology then this would be easy for them! this is sickening, I can't believe a country thats supposed to be the strongest superpower in the world would allow something like this to happen. More and more I'm starting to think that America = Rome and the same fate awaits them


On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it...

I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language...

We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all.

Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.

You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.

Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.

Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!

DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!
TLO FIGHTING | me all in, he drone drone drone, me win - SK.MC | JINROLLED! | KraToss for the win
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
May 29 2011 17:10 GMT
#226
I really hope a lot of it is fake, it really sounds so awful that it's hard to believe that even christians would do such a thing to people. Very sad article
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Sandrosuperstar
Profile Joined November 2009
Sweden525 Posts
May 29 2011 17:15 GMT
#227
On May 30 2011 01:58 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 01:56 Olinim wrote:
On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
On May 30 2011 01:10 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

[quote]
The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


[quote]
Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


Blatant lie or plain ignorance? I said there were two minor lines in the bible about it and you show me two minor lines in the bible about it...

I notice you didn't put in the Leviticus verse about wearing two kinds of linen, or possibly all the rules about being kosher, or you know, the original hebrew which isn't using very strong english language...

We do not follow the rules of Leviticus blindly, and neither should Jews or Christians. And there's nothing to suggest that we should follow them blindly. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Are there any other lines in the Bible even closely to relating to homosexuality? No? (Actually I think there are, but I think they're much more specific) Are there tons of lines about compassion and kindness and the heart of the cards? It also says in the Bible "Thou shall not murder" you know. The few lines in the Bible against homosexuality simply does not justify actions of this nature, at all.

Oh I would like to point out that my statement on Lesbianism still stands.

You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.

What it says to me is they only use it to support their own agenda.


Right, so it's the people's fault, not the religion. That's all I was really saying. Hateful people probably would have justified it some other stupid way like the Nazis.


Thats the problem with religion. It's equally bad as Nazism in this regard. And that's the problem people have with religion. It's not just the perpetrators that are bad, it's ALSO the fact that they can hide behind the excuse of only following a religion.
I'm homo for Lomo, gay for GGplay, but at the end of the day I put my dong in Lee Jaedong
Poobah
Profile Joined February 2010
England91 Posts
May 29 2011 17:23 GMT
#228
That's fucking disgusting.
This above all: to thine own self be true
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
May 29 2011 17:29 GMT
#229

adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.

Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.

Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!

DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!


That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all...

Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have.
PlaGuE_R
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
France1151 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 17:53:23
May 29 2011 17:49 GMT
#230
On May 30 2011 02:29 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +

adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.

Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.

Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!

DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!


That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all...

Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have.


Homosexuality in Ancient Rome was widely accepted. There was no controversy, there are plenty of historical sources that show that Romans were mostly bisexuals. A lot of men had sex with both men and women. Some say that Caesar had sex with his nephew, but I think that's just speculation that started out because of the HBO series. Still, Romans had no problem with it, and Greek philosophers fucked their young male apprentices, they were called catamytes. Sure, there might have been a few sneers, or a few 'this isnt quite right, is it?' but it's not until christianity reared its ugly head that persecution started.

Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil. When the Romans went to war they wanted to honour Mars, when the Europeans marched to Jerusalem they wanted to destroy the non-believers and retake the kingdom of Christ. and now it's a Jihad, a holy war agaisnt the West from the Taliban and Al-quaeda.

wether its a pagan religion, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. It seems some people are simply not able to handle it. I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?!

EDIT: you can't say Hitler wasnt about religion, he was brought into a christian country and culture. Even if it was much more about other delusions, the ghost of that original prejudice was still there
TLO FIGHTING | me all in, he drone drone drone, me win - SK.MC | JINROLLED! | KraToss for the win
DamnCats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1472 Posts
May 29 2011 18:02 GMT
#231
That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


They've already maxed out their skill at ignoring their own brains so it should really come as no surprise.
Disciples of a god, that neither lives nor breathes.
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
May 29 2011 18:08 GMT
#232
It's amazing how a post about some asshole parents wanting their daughter de-gayified by sending them to a hell-camp has degenerated into religion-bashing.

On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.


"They" do? Really?

Some of them do, but painting all Christians as anti-Gay only serves to undermine your point and turn you into exactly the kind of thing you're ostensibly struggling against. There are plenty of pro-Gay Christians around. However, because they're not of the holier-than-thou asshole variety, they don't run around with their Christianity on their sleeves to get attention.

Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil.


Um, no it isn't.

The most you can say is that religion can be used as a convenient excuse. The Romans did not go to war to honor Mars. They said that, but they went to war because they were assholes and Mars was something they could use to cover that up.

If people didn't have that excuse, they'd just come up with a different one. Perhaps instead of the Crusades, it might have been a war between the nations of Europe. Or something else.

People often talk about the wars started by religion, yet nobody ever talks about the good side of religion. Probably because it doesn't get much press. The hope that it brings people. The moral compass that it helps people develop. The communities it helps to keep together. Religion isn't necessary for those things, but it isn't necessary for war either.

I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?!


So you want to cast off your religion and... join a religion. You realize that Buddhism is a religion, right? Or do you just not consider it a religion because it doesn't have a God in it?
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
okaygo
Profile Joined August 2010
United States83 Posts
May 29 2011 18:14 GMT
#233
I just wanted to say, I attended and graduated the school that the OP mentions. It took me 22 months. That is all.
manicshock
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada741 Posts
May 29 2011 18:20 GMT
#234
On May 29 2011 17:29 N3rV[Green] wrote:
being morman means you believe a fairy tale told via a picture book.

I lived in Utah (moab to be precise) for many many years, and I can say from personal experience that the Mormon world is a rather scary one filled with wonderful little things like an upstanding Mormon man in the community killing his wife, telling the police, and having the police not do any investigations. This kind of manipulation happens frequently and it's rather disgusting.

Just the absurd notion that having more material wealth puts you into a better position in heaven is enough to show that LDS are bat shit insane

Honestly the only word that describes them is a cult.

more ontopic though, the biggest thing here is that it's 100% voluntary. That scares me more than anything. A parent would willing put their child though this....just sickening.



Slow down there buddy. Where are you getting the bolded part from? Give me doctrine. Otherwise I can only say you're trolling, or severely misinformed.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
May 29 2011 18:22 GMT
#235
"They" do? Really?

Some of them do, but painting all Christians as anti-Gay only serves to undermine your point and turn you into exactly the kind of thing you're ostensibly struggling against. There are plenty of pro-Gay Christians around. However, because they're not of the holier-than-thou asshole variety, they don't run around with their Christianity on their sleeves to get attention.


You're taking me out of context. I was actually defending Christians if you followed, even though my "they" was vague. All Christians do ignore passages of the Bible. However the "they" are the Christians in the OP.
SomeONEx
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden641 Posts
May 29 2011 18:23 GMT
#236
America, this is why everyone hates you, holy fucking shit.

User was warned for this post
BW hwaiting!
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 18:47:33
May 29 2011 18:38 GMT
#237
On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

You guys have public schools, right? And what happens if the child doesnt want to go there?

The differences between camps like the op and public schools are technical. The ideology taught at the behavioral camp is different from de facto public school ideology, hence it seems alienating to us, even though fundamentally, the indoctrination of ideology is the goal of both systems. Also the use of violence is much more masked in public schools. One is not directly physically abused, however the inevitable consequences of being sent to hard treatment camps, should one fail the school program, remain as a remainder to students that the official program must be followed.
Aah thats the stuff..
blankspace
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States292 Posts
May 29 2011 18:42 GMT
#238
On May 30 2011 02:49 PlaGuE_R wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 02:29 DoubleReed wrote:

adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.

Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.

Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!

DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!


That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all...

Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have.


Homosexuality in Ancient Rome was widely accepted. There was no controversy, there are plenty of historical sources that show that Romans were mostly bisexuals. A lot of men had sex with both men and women. Some say that Caesar had sex with his nephew, but I think that's just speculation that started out because of the HBO series. Still, Romans had no problem with it, and Greek philosophers fucked their young male apprentices, they were called catamytes. Sure, there might have been a few sneers, or a few 'this isnt quite right, is it?' but it's not until christianity reared its ugly head that persecution started.

Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil. When the Romans went to war they wanted to honour Mars, when the Europeans marched to Jerusalem they wanted to destroy the non-believers and retake the kingdom of Christ. and now it's a Jihad, a holy war agaisnt the West from the Taliban and Al-quaeda.

wether its a pagan religion, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. It seems some people are simply not able to handle it. I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?!

EDIT: you can't say Hitler wasnt about religion, he was brought into a christian country and culture. Even if it was much more about other delusions, the ghost of that original prejudice was still there


Interesting, I didn't know that "Romans were mostly bisexuals." Could you point to some of the historical sources?
Hello friends
DamnCats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1472 Posts
May 29 2011 18:47 GMT
#239
On May 30 2011 03:23 SomeONEx wrote:
America, this is why everyone hates you, holy fucking shit.


I thought it was because we narrowly avoided electing Sarah Palin as VP?

Disciples of a god, that neither lives nor breathes.
xarthaz
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1704 Posts
May 29 2011 18:49 GMT
#240
On May 30 2011 02:49 PlaGuE_R wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 02:29 DoubleReed wrote:

adding my 2 cents. This is definitely about religion. Homosexuality was regarded as an oddity in Japan until christianity came and it became this horrible thing. Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, any and all pre-christianity (barring judea) cultures pretty much had no problems with homosexuality. It was expected of some important men to take apprentices and teach them while the apprentices would have sex with them when they reached a certain age.

Men and women having sex with the same gender was regarded as completely fine and there was no prejudice about that.

Now look at the Dark Ages, where homosexuals were hunted down and burned at the stake for heresy. 1940s Hitler rounded up the Jews, Gipsys and homosexuals and exterminated them. 2011 there are FUCKED UP religious concentration camps for children in the UNITED STATES!

DO NOT SAY THIS ISNT ABOUT RELIGION! THAT'S THE ONLY THING IT'S ABOUT! the choice to use religion for fucked up shit like this lies in people being scumbags. But if some prejudiced ass hadnt written that one line in the bible, this crap wouldn't even EXIST!


That's actually a pretty good point. Other than the Hitler thing because that wasn't religious at all...

Though it's actually not quite true about homosexuality in Greece and Rome. There was controversy over homosexuality, but certainly nothing like what we have.


Homosexuality in Ancient Rome was widely accepted. There was no controversy, there are plenty of historical sources that show that Romans were mostly bisexuals. A lot of men had sex with both men and women. Some say that Caesar had sex with his nephew, but I think that's just speculation that started out because of the HBO series. Still, Romans had no problem with it, and Greek philosophers fucked their young male apprentices, they were called catamytes. Sure, there might have been a few sneers, or a few 'this isnt quite right, is it?' but it's not until christianity reared its ugly head that persecution started.

Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil. When the Romans went to war they wanted to honour Mars, when the Europeans marched to Jerusalem they wanted to destroy the non-believers and retake the kingdom of Christ. and now it's a Jihad, a holy war agaisnt the West from the Taliban and Al-quaeda.

wether its a pagan religion, Christianity, Judaism or Islam. It seems some people are simply not able to handle it. I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?!

EDIT: you can't say Hitler wasnt about religion, he was brought into a christian country and culture. Even if it was much more about other delusions, the ghost of that original prejudice was still there
And the 100 milliion killed by communism? That had nothing to do with religion, when in fact the ideological premises of communism directly reject religion and accept materialism.
Aah thats the stuff..
JohnQPublic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States123 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 18:54:36
May 29 2011 18:51 GMT
#241
Alright, I see some people are questioning the existence of such places. I actually spent some time in a place very similar also in Utah. These places do exist, they do ruin peoples lives. If there is any evidence of the evil of religion this is surely it.

They are 100% real. One of my posts on my experiences is in that reddit thread and if anyone still doubts the legitimacy of this I may share some details.
non sum qualis eram
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19240 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 18:53:36
May 29 2011 18:53 GMT
#242
This makes me sick to my stomach. What's worse though is a lot of people here seem to think a small group of people harassing kids means that all of America is in on it. This is the first time I've heard of something like this, but I'm damn sure this is happening in other countries too and I really hope one day I can do something useful to prevent schools like this from happening.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
PlaGuE_R
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
France1151 Posts
May 29 2011 18:53 GMT
#243
On May 30 2011 03:08 NicolBolas wrote:
It's amazing how a post about some asshole parents wanting their daughter de-gayified by sending them to a hell-camp has degenerated into religion-bashing.

Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 01:53 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 30 2011 01:47 Olinim wrote:
You said "practically nothing is said about homosexuality in the bible" but it says gays are an abomination and should be put to death, how is that practically nothing? Just because they only mention it a few times? Obviously it doesn't justify his actions because the Bible isn't true. Just because it has some positive aspects it doesn't negate the truly horrific ones.
Why would a Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God but just disregard passages like that, was he just being untruthful? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.


I don't know. Christians disregard plenty of passages of the Bible. The fact that they take the part that's hateful says something about them.


"They" do? Really?

Some of them do, but painting all Christians as anti-Gay only serves to undermine your point and turn you into exactly the kind of thing you're ostensibly struggling against. There are plenty of pro-Gay Christians around. However, because they're not of the holier-than-thou asshole variety, they don't run around with their Christianity on their sleeves to get attention.

Show nested quote +
Wether you guys like it or not, it seems Religion is the root of all evil.


Um, no it isn't.

The most you can say is that religion can be used as a convenient excuse. The Romans did not go to war to honor Mars. They said that, but they went to war because they were assholes and Mars was something they could use to cover that up.

If people didn't have that excuse, they'd just come up with a different one. Perhaps instead of the Crusades, it might have been a war between the nations of Europe. Or something else.

People often talk about the wars started by religion, yet nobody ever talks about the good side of religion. Probably because it doesn't get much press. The hope that it brings people. The moral compass that it helps people develop. The communities it helps to keep together. Religion isn't necessary for those things, but it isn't necessary for war either.

Show nested quote +
I say we all cast off our religions and become buddhists. WHOS WITH ME?!


So you want to cast off your religion and... join a religion. You realize that Buddhism is a religion, right? Or do you just not consider it a religion because it doesn't have a God in it?


Buddhism is only a religion because people like you, ie the majority, think it's a religion. Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion. Most buddhists are either shintoist or Hindus or some other religion. Also, 99% of the people in charge for starting holy wars were 100% convinced that the holy wars were just and for God. So, no, it wasn't just an excuse. Was murdering hundreds of thousands of protestants an excuse?

Hunting down and burning wiccans alive? just cuz they were pagans? slaughtering Muslim women and children in cold blood? it was widely regarded that men were to be killed and women and children spared, but because they were muslims they slaughtered them.

I think the following quote from the film Flight of the Phoenix is a perfect way to put it
"Religion drives people apart, Faith brings them together"
TLO FIGHTING | me all in, he drone drone drone, me win - SK.MC | JINROLLED! | KraToss for the win
Mista_Masta
Profile Joined January 2009
Netherlands557 Posts
May 29 2011 18:56 GMT
#244
I'm appalled at what I just read. I feel sorry for everyone who ever went through such an experience. I don't understand how that stuff is legal...
JohnQPublic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States123 Posts
May 29 2011 19:01 GMT
#245
Also, one of the things that makes me so sick about many of these camps is how much the government supports this. When I was sent to a similar facility it was 80% my schools doing then my actual parents. All of these facilities gain huge amounts of money from the government ( I heard quotes of upwards of 800$ a day per kid could easily be more) and they are peddled by government officials all over the country.
non sum qualis eram
luckybeni2
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany1065 Posts
May 29 2011 19:08 GMT
#246
On May 28 2011 07:22 roflSloth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 07:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?

I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.

And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either.


Read her reddit posts, she actually only mentioned it was a Mormon program because it wasn't mentioned anywhere; she even said she wouldn't have made a big deal out of it if they advertised they were Mormon.

As for the evidence, well, if you read her transcript carefully, she mentions many religious themes present in Cross Creek's program. Combine that with the staff being 95% Mormon (her words, not mine), and that's a pretty easy conclusion to make, in my opinion.


As much as I disagree with religion in general, however, I definitely agree with your point that we shouldn't bash the Mormon point of view. There are extremists and douchebags from all beliefs; Christians, Muslims, Mormons, even atheists. I definitely see too many people on TL boards instantly condemning the religion involved when things like this happen.

I agree. I have always been an atheist but never really cared about other peoples beliefs except when they are harmful to others. I think almost all atheists are like that but in recent years there have been groups that became louder and louder, who blame all the bad things in the world on religions. They disgust me just as much as religious zealots. They think they are different but actually they are exactly the same.
nathangonmad
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom317 Posts
May 29 2011 19:09 GMT
#247
I never cease to be surprised by the united states.

User was temp banned for this post.
Keep trying Leenock
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 19:15:54
May 29 2011 19:10 GMT
#248
--- Nuked ---
Bosko
Profile Joined February 2010
United States155 Posts
May 29 2011 19:11 GMT
#249
On May 28 2011 15:51 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 14:36 Bosko wrote:
In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.

From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman


Made me laugh. They don't give psychiatric meds to people who aren't broken.

The way they took her to the schooled sounded like the worst part. That's not gonna help a mentally unstable kid who already has issues with their parents any.

This post is stupid beyond belief. You use meds to treat a physical problem. They give glasses to people whose eyes don't work. You give meds to people whose brains don't work. No more broken than someone with poor eyesight and I highly doubt you're perfect.


And you say my post was stupid...I imagine if you weren't a mod you would get a warning for pointlessness and flamebait.
JohnQPublic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States123 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 19:22:32
May 29 2011 19:13 GMT
#250
On May 28 2011 07:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?

I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.

And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either.


The facility I went to was in provo, utah. If you know anything about provo, utah you know that 90% of its population is mormon. The entire time I was there I only met one staff member that was not a mormon and he was part of the security. This was a government funded facility and it had A MORMON CHURCH on the grounds. Every sunday you had 2 options 1) go to church and have a good time because everyone who went was awarded with privileges 2) sit in silence for 3 hours and do absolutely nothing. Suffice to say most people went to the church just so that they wouldn't be "punished".
non sum qualis eram
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
May 29 2011 19:17 GMT
#251
Horrible horrible story. I would have resisted the hell out of those people. In the airport I would be screaming bloody murder about kidnapping, get those assholes into trouble. I hate people sometimes.
Never Knows Best.
nennx
Profile Joined April 2010
United States310 Posts
May 29 2011 19:17 GMT
#252
Religion is definitely to blame here. The sooner we all abandon religion the better off mankind will be.

User was temp banned for this post.
Sup
PanN
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2828 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 19:22:41
May 29 2011 19:22 GMT
#253
I.... couldn't finish the story. Too rough.
We have multiple brackets generated in advance. Relax . (Kennigit) I just simply do not understand how it can be the time to play can be 22nd at 9:30 pm PST / midnight the 23rd at the same time. (GGzerg)
BabyToss!
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Czech Republic588 Posts
May 29 2011 19:38 GMT
#254
Reading this makes me want to puke. Sick, delusional people. Forced religious stuff? Gender roles? Child abuse? Takes me a lot of effort to stay civilized in this reply, because this is just way too enraging for me. Wish someone would just raid this place, burn it and have all these jerks locked up in psych ward for the rest of their lives.
Nowadays a Filthy Casual | Follow your dreams |
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 19:55:09
May 29 2011 19:49 GMT
#255
Fuck that. FUCK THAT. What kind of sick twisted fuck sends their child to a place like that? Who the FUCK could be ok with 2 men breaking into their little girls bedroom and essentially kidnapping her? I don't even...this is awful.

EDIT: This fucking travesty isn't still going on is it? Surely, surely there has to be some law against this. And if there isn't someone needs to make one.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 20:17:51
May 29 2011 19:53 GMT
#256
On May 30 2011 04:10 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 15:29 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:15 RifleCow wrote:
Honestly, I don't even understand why it matters if its a choice or not. Only to religion does this issue matter. People should just be free to be homosexual whether it is by choice or they are born with it.

I agree.

On May 29 2011 15:16 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:09 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:01 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:58 Barrin wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:39 Olinim wrote:
Also some basic logic would lead you to conclude that people don't choose to be gay. Did you choose who you are attracted to? Do you choose what food you like? Obviously not, it's how you were born.

I don't see how it's impossible that there were factors/experiences after you were born that lead you to becoming gay. Maybe it's not like this for everyone, but I can guarantee you it is like that for some people.

Well maybe there were some factors that caused you to become straight, perhaps you need some treatment. What factors do you suggest would completely shift a person's sexuality?

Excuse me but I never suggested that a gay person needs treatment, not sure why you're suggesting that I need treatment.

The answer to your question is simple: horrible and/or psychologically damaging heterosexual activities can lead someone to not enjoy heterosexual activities which leads to homosexual activities as a way to release tension. It doesn't even need to be like that either. Maybe you've just always had bad experiences with almost every person of the opposite sex. It can also be a cultural thing or something learned from siblings, etc. It can also simply be all you ever knew (If you look at my last post on the last page you can see that we don't really have an instinctive aversion to it, and you will also see that liking it doesn't necessarily make you only homosexual, you might just be bi which is actually reasonably normal). Any combination of these things will do really. I'm sure there are more.


Bullshit. Show me an actual scientific study that shows that being raped causes you to become gay. Why would homosexual activity relieve stress from a traumatic sexual experience just because it was heterosexual? And having bad experiences with someone of the opposite sex has nothing to do with their sexuality, I could absolutely hate a chick but still want to have sex with her. You don't learn sexuality from a sibling seriously that is freaking absurd. These are all absurd reasons trying to make it sound like its a symptom, a result of some trauma or something and it's not.

Don't really need scientific studies when I have common sense, and, oh, I don't know, the "gay people" telling me from their own mouths? Many people already know that these are factors for some people to turn gay. Notice how I said "some people"; if I did not outright say it, then I at least implied multiple times that this does not include every gay person's reason for turning gay. You seem to act like I'm trying to explain why all gay people are gay, when I am really just explaining why some gay people are gay.

I like how you blatantly ignore this part
It can also simply be all you ever knew (If you look at my last post on the last page you can see that we don't really have an instinctive aversion to it, and you will also see that liking it doesn't necessarily make you only homosexual, you might just be bi which is actually reasonably normal).


Are you trolling or are you just upset? I understand either way, but either way maybe it's time for you to take a break for a bit. (actually on that note time to play some games; i might come back to this thread tmrw).

Why would I believe you even talk to a gay person when you already admitted your discomforted by their very presence? "not include every gay person's reason for turning gay." This is what I'm talking about, they didn't have a reason to TURN GAY, they simply are.
You admitted your own ignorance and bias on the subject in your very first post.

It's actually funny because you're starting to remind of me of my very devout Mormon mother. She can't help herself but to assume things and make inferences off of pretty much everything. Trust me, I rarely mean more than what I'm literally saying. All I said was that I prefer not to interact with gay people (and also that I would never bother them about it unless they asked me or out etc. which hasn't even happened in a long time), not that I never or even rarely have. When I said "gay people telling me from their own mouths" it doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that they weren't even directing their words right at me (it could mean that I just overheard conversations). But actually it's all three: One person has indeed talked directly to me about it, I have overheard multiple conversations (if you really want to know I used to be a patient in a mental institution for severe depression many years ago, which is also where most of my less-than-pleasant encounters with gay people happened (I actually love life nowadays btw)), and I've also just read about them (both people writing about them and them writing about themselves).

The funny thing is that from your point of view i.e.
Show nested quote +
Well maybe there were some factors that caused you to become straight, perhaps you need some treatment.

is that there were indeed factors that help cause me to become straight (instead of bi). If I'm not mistaken, I basically mentioned that many posts ago. In fact I can definitely recognize masculine beauty when I see it, but never have I wanted to fuck it.

But like I said I never said or even thought that gay people need treatment, so you're pretty much just as bad as those religious people who say that gays do.

Show nested quote +
Why would homosexual activity relieve stress from a traumatic sexual experience just because it was heterosexual?

Actually what I said was it would relieve "tension". Think about it. If a person cannot enjoy heterosexual activity, then they can never really get to have sex with someone unless they do homosexual acts. Are you not aware what happens to a person when they cannot have sex for a very long period of time? That's the tension I was talking about.

You know I actually gave you plenty of material to work with if you had just thought about it rationally for a moment.

Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 14:45 Barrin wrote:
Pretty much every well-recorded primate species (maybe just all mammals in general) have been shown that some members would sometimes do homosexual acts. I believe almost always you could just call them "bisexual" though... In the case of males, it's often really an establishment of dominance (these members still do their thing with females and reproduce etc). In the case of females, they will please each other as sort-of a trade.


If you think about this for a moment and use your awesome inference skills, it's not hard to come to the conclusion that I think pretty much everyone has the capacity to perform and enjoy homosexual acts (when they're ready) from birth. This doesn't inherently mean that they will, of course, so it doesn't necessarily mean that I think people are born "gay". In fact this is an argument to suggest that they chose to be gay (but like I said, I don't really think there's enough information either way).

On that note, I think I've given plenty of evidence to suggest that it might actually be a choice (and have essentially proven that it is for some people, just like it's my choice to stay straight (even though I didn't choose the experiences that lead me to be)).




I'm not really sure why you seem to have some kind of vendetta against me. I am not a part of these religious people that oppress gays (and nor have I done so independently). If you haven't realized all I was doing was explaining the Mormon's thought process (something I don't necessarily agree with, and even though it is flawed does not make it wholly illogical (I pity people who choose a side without trying to understand all sides)). The only thing I did that could have possibly offended you is that I do not think there is enough evidence to suggest that people can be "born gay". I only presented the information I know: that some people do essentially choose to be gay (much in the same way that gamers decide to play games). I even admitted multiple times that I do not know enough about it to come to a conclusion one way or the other (which is almost an open invitation for you to logically show me why you think one way or the other).

I tried to be nice, but it's clear that no amount of logic is going to convince you that what you believe in might be wrong (wow... that sounds a lot like religious people doesn't it). Think, man.
All I'm saying is that you don't consciously choose who you're attracted to.
You said people "choose" to be gay much like a gamer chooses to play games, but those aren't the same. It's simply that you can't choose to be gay it's absurd, you could CHOOSE to have gay sex but that doesn't necessarily make you gay. It means you have an attraction, which you can't choose. Now you're just resorting to ad hominem attacks accusing me of being like your mom and such nonsense.

You don't choose to be straight, you are attracted to woman, that isn't a choice, you don't choose to be attracted to men either. I don't think you know the definition of choice.
GeorgeyBeats
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom338 Posts
May 29 2011 20:04 GMT
#257
This is utterly disgraceful!
To quote their websites FAQ section
''Q. How do I get my child to agree to come there?
Each situation is different, Some students will come voluntarily others need a bit of persuasion. We will help you determine what is best for your child. (The decision is yours not theirs)''
How can parents even think of doing this to their children.
I am horrified.
How many bears could bear grylls grill if bear grylls coud grill bears?
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
May 29 2011 20:07 GMT
#258
^In regards to the 'choosing who you're attracted to' thing, the main argument against it is it makes no fucking sense. Either you are attracted to someone or you are not; when was the last time you looked at someone you didn't find attractive and said 'yeah I'm gonna be attracted to them now'. If there are any straight people who think you can choose to be gay, by all means go ahead, start being attracted to men now.

What's that? You don't want to? How bizarre.

I suppose there can be people that choose to have sex with their own gender even though they aren't attracted to them...but if they do exist they aren't exactly relevant.
Qaz
Profile Joined August 2010
84 Posts
May 29 2011 20:10 GMT
#259
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


It's important to realize that the Bible reflects the time in which it was written, and while some Christians still follow the Bible word for word (often fundamentalists who use specific quotes out of context), the vast majority have taken a more figurative approach where the message, rather than the story is key.

The book of leviticus was meant to give guidelines to Israelites away from the pagan religions of Egypt. For a large part of the Christian faith, not all these rules apply today.

One purpose of religion is to support a code of ethics (to make better, kinder people). There is no justification for such demeaning and damaging treatment of children.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
May 29 2011 20:11 GMT
#260
On May 30 2011 05:10 Qaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


It's important to realize that the Bible reflects the time in which it was written, and while some Christians still follow the Bible word for word (often fundamentalists who use specific quotes out of context), the vast majority have taken a more figurative approach where the message, rather than the story is key.

The book of leviticus was meant to give guidelines to Israelites away from the pagan religions of Egypt. For a large part of the Christian faith, not all these rules apply today.

One purpose of religion is to support a code of ethics (to make better, kinder people). There is no justification for such demeaning and damaging treatment of children.

I acknowledged that in my post. I said most Christians deviate away from this due to shifting of the times.
let_FLY
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
80 Posts
May 29 2011 20:31 GMT
#261
every fucking thread turns into a direct representation of what the internet feels is a proper representation of that country. grow up, if you really think the majority of americans feel this is necessary i can't even begin to form an insult that would likely result in a ban anyway.
Qaz
Profile Joined August 2010
84 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 20:37:11
May 29 2011 20:31 GMT
#262
On May 30 2011 05:11 Olinim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 05:10 Qaz wrote:
On May 30 2011 00:17 Olinim wrote:
On May 29 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:
On May 29 2011 15:18 Ropid wrote:
On May 29 2011 14:03 Bunnypanda wrote:
On May 29 2011 13:42 ampson wrote:
Well, that is honestly very sad. I wouldn't let myself be kidnapped without a pretty extreme fight though, I have a knife in my room somewhere.... But anyways, these kinds of camps ARE NOT legal and only exist because the terrible shit that they do is swept under the rug by the staff and the idiot parents who send their kids there. Anybody who has sent their kid to this terrible place for "behavioral modification" wouldn't admit their mistake or usually let their kids talk about it, and that is how they still exist. But now the place is being slapped with a shitton of lawsuits, so it won't exist for long.

On May 28 2011 05:50 DisneylandSC wrote:
Religion at its finest. Absolutely disgusting.

The blame does not lie with religion, the blame lies with people who can not stand the idea of homosexuality and then use religion to justify their bigotry. I honestly doubt these people adhere at all to the book of mormon, or the 10 commandments for that matter. And I am sure that true Mormons, whose #1 value is FAMILY, would never let this happen to their children.


On May 28 2011 05:23 SiPa wrote:
America fuck yeah!
Thank god this isnt happening in Germany nor Swizerland

Messed up shit happens all over the world man, Germany and Switzerland aren't paradises of tolerance. The best any country's government can do is get rid of these things as they come, and the US is doing that.


That you can even say that this is not the fault of religion is beyond me. These people are not even considered "nutjobs", these are just strictly religious people that believe their doctrine so badly that they are willing to put their children through hell if that hell offers them a way to not be gay. The sheer amount of kids that end up in these camps should tell you as much, they all have parents that think this is the way to go to cure "the gay". Are they all extreme nutjobs or are they just gullible people that believe in a religion that tells them not to like it?

Mormons accept gay people now? No.
Christianity thinks homosexuality is moral now? No.

When these tidbits of hate change, only then will religion not be the problem.

The fact is that the big underlying issue here is Religion. You can slice it all you want and blame the individual, but they are just sheep in a big mess of religious culture.

I think you are confusing religion and culture. For example, socialists and communists once needed to fear for their life, which has nothing to do with the Bible, I guess. The Nazis had that idea of some pure race of blond, blue-eyed super-men, and were incarcerating and killing homosexual men, and the Nazis were also dreaming of eventually eradicating Christianity and replacing it with a religion of their own design. The USSR was promoting atheism as Christianity was seen as the root of all evil in the world or something like that, but at the same time, laws were introduced making homosexuality punishable.

In my opinion, it is probably reversed: the culture of a society defines what is deemed anti-social and that changes religion. Nowadays, the Catholic Church has no problem with the theory of evolution, for example, because there is no way to argue against science. With the Bible being vague and open to interpretation, Christianity changes to not go against the consensus in questions like women's rights, divorce, abortion, etc. (some Churches faster than others).

I have the gut feeling, battling against religion is probably harmful for changing society in such a way, that stuff like the story from the OP would not be possible anymore. This just pisses people off. You also do not want to only convince Mormons, to not send their children into those camps, but atheists, too. I could see some non-religious parents being at their wits end, thinking what they could do to change their delinquent kid, and being led to believe that the brain-washing in those weird camps works 100 % and the future for their kid will turn out to be a better, happier life.


I think this is actually a really good point. Let's face it, the Bible says practically nothing about homosexuality whatsoever. It is not a significant part of it. And in fact it says nothing at all about lesbianism (and really there's no reason to believe that gender can be swapped like that in the Bible, especially considering it's about sex).

Yet people destroy families, abuse children, and hate each other because of their interpretation of like two lines in the minor parts of the bible. Don't blame religion, blame people. Christianity is only anti-gay if the Christian wants it to be.

No, that's a blatant lie or just plain ignorance.


'If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death.'

While it is certainly true that most Christians deviate away from this, and certainly would not kill a homosexual, it merely is a testament to the fickleness of religion.


Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


It's important to realize that the Bible reflects the time in which it was written, and while some Christians still follow the Bible word for word (often fundamentalists who use specific quotes out of context), the vast majority have taken a more figurative approach where the message, rather than the story is key.

The book of leviticus was meant to give guidelines to Israelites away from the pagan religions of Egypt. For a large part of the Christian faith, not all these rules apply today.

One purpose of religion is to support a code of ethics (to make better, kinder people). There is no justification for such demeaning and damaging treatment of children.

I acknowledged that in my post. I said most Christians deviate away from this due to shifting of the times.


Yes, I just thought it could use some restating, as you've been under quite a bit of critisism for something else you said. I also wanted to add a historical perspective to it.

While somewhat of topic....As for the idea that seems to have gotten you under fire, whether or not homosexuality is determined at birth or a choice, perhaps there can be more reasons than simply genetics. However, I and,( judging from a quick search of google scholarly article) most of us do not have enough information to blame it on any one thing. Admittedly, I'm having a hard time seeing sexual orientation as a choice.
Xiron
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1233 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 20:38:15
May 29 2011 20:37 GMT
#263
On May 30 2011 05:31 let_FLY wrote:
every fucking thread turns into a direct representation of what the internet feels is a proper representation of that country. grow up, if you really think the majority of americans feel this is necessary i can't even begin to form an insult that would likely result in a ban anyway.


Germans protest against nuclear power, government considers all pro's and con's, nuclear power plants are going to be turned off soon. The will of people made a choice. Ive never been to USA, but if you say "the majority of americans" doesnt want those camps, why are they still there? That doesnt really make sense to me. Do americans not care? In germany something like that would not be possible at all. Do you mind to explain me your thoughts?
"The way of life can be free and beautiful. But we have lost the way. " - Charlie Chaplin
Zealotdriver
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1557 Posts
May 29 2011 20:47 GMT
#264
On May 30 2011 05:37 Xiron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 05:31 let_FLY wrote:
every fucking thread turns into a direct representation of what the internet feels is a proper representation of that country. grow up, if you really think the majority of americans feel this is necessary i can't even begin to form an insult that would likely result in a ban anyway.


Germans protest against nuclear power, government considers all pro's and con's, nuclear power plants are going to be turned off soon. The will of people made a choice. Ive never been to USA, but if you say "the majority of americans" doesnt want those camps, why are they still there? That doesnt really make sense to me. Do americans not care? In germany something like that would not be possible at all. Do you mind to explain me your thoughts?

I don't want to speak for let_fly, but here in the US we have a saying, C.R.E.A.M.

cash rules everything around me

The groups supporting these abusive camps have enough money to buy legal protection and political influence. Many americans would like to see these places shut down, but enough americans with money support these brutal camps so nothing will be done.
Turn off the radio
Qaz
Profile Joined August 2010
84 Posts
May 29 2011 20:50 GMT
#265
On May 30 2011 05:37 Xiron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 05:31 let_FLY wrote:
every fucking thread turns into a direct representation of what the internet feels is a proper representation of that country. grow up, if you really think the majority of americans feel this is necessary i can't even begin to form an insult that would likely result in a ban anyway.


Germans protest against nuclear power, government considers all pro's and con's, nuclear power plants are going to be turned off soon. The will of people made a choice. Ive never been to USA, but if you say "the majority of americans" doesnt want those camps, why are they still there? That doesnt really make sense to me. Do americans not care? In germany something like that would not be possible at all. Do you mind to explain me your thoughts?


The difference is these camps have nothing to do with the government, while nuclear power does. They're private schools--companies for profit. It only takes a tiny percentage of the population to be willing to send their children there for it to be profitable. Who has the majority is irrelevant.

From the text, it also seems that the treatment in these schools has been kept relatively secret. For example, they weren't allowed to say to their parents that the schools had anything to do with religion.

This isn't something that can be blamed on the general population of the US.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
May 29 2011 20:53 GMT
#266
On May 30 2011 05:37 Xiron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 05:31 let_FLY wrote:
every fucking thread turns into a direct representation of what the internet feels is a proper representation of that country. grow up, if you really think the majority of americans feel this is necessary i can't even begin to form an insult that would likely result in a ban anyway.


Germans protest against nuclear power, government considers all pro's and con's, nuclear power plants are going to be turned off soon. The will of people made a choice. Ive never been to USA, but if you say "the majority of americans" doesnt want those camps, why are they still there? That doesnt really make sense to me. Do americans not care? In germany something like that would not be possible at all. Do you mind to explain me your thoughts?


I have to say, usually I deplore that childish 'fuck America' bollocks, but the fact that this is allowed to happen in any country baffles me, and indicates that at best there is something wrong with the American system and at worst something wrong with the American mindset. If something like this happens here then it happens secretly and illegally, and when it is discovered it is all over the news.

Of course America is a very large country, which no doubt has a significant effect. Everything is bigger in the US, including the insane fringe groups. Blaming the country and it's people for this kind of thing is obviously an overly simplistic knee jerk response.
Hedgehog
Profile Joined May 2011
Macedonia73 Posts
May 29 2011 20:54 GMT
#267
Interesting, I didn't know that "Romans were mostly bisexuals." Could you point to some of the historical sources?


Ancient Rome pretty much copy-pasted their whole culture and mythology from the Ancient Greeks. Homosexuality in Ancient Greek polises namely Sparta was a social norm. When a boy becomes 7 years of age he's taken from the family and is given a 'combat trainer' who was in the same time his lover... So yeah, in Ancient Rome homosexuality was widespread but also by the time of Aurelius Augustinus(the 1st true christian philosopher in the context of developing the christian political theory) who witnessed the fall of Rome, the hunt for the homosexuals can be traced to. In his works he mentions all the bad things Rome and Roman people have done that lead to their downfall and homosexuality(or deviating the god's will/plan) was one of them. And with the establishment of the church as the only source of legitimacy of the rulers in the middle ages(in Europe) the hunt for heretics and abominations goes into overdrive. We all know how that affected the cultural and scientific progress... Sadly, remnants of that mindset still exist even after a millennium.


As for some works you can read on about Roman culture, try Cicero and Seneka. And pretty much every ancient Greek philosopher.
Divide et impera
PlaGuE_R
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
France1151 Posts
May 29 2011 21:15 GMT
#268
On May 30 2011 05:54 Hedgehog wrote:
Show nested quote +
Interesting, I didn't know that "Romans were mostly bisexuals." Could you point to some of the historical sources?


Ancient Rome pretty much copy-pasted their whole culture and mythology from the Ancient Greeks. Homosexuality in Ancient Greek polises namely Sparta was a social norm. When a boy becomes 7 years of age he's taken from the family and is given a 'combat trainer' who was in the same time his lover... So yeah, in Ancient Rome homosexuality was widespread but also by the time of Aurelius Augustinus(the 1st true christian philosopher in the context of developing the christian political theory) who witnessed the fall of Rome, the hunt for the homosexuals can be traced to. In his works he mentions all the bad things Rome and Roman people have done that lead to their downfall and homosexuality(or deviating the god's will/plan) was one of them. And with the establishment of the church as the only source of legitimacy of the rulers in the middle ages(in Europe) the hunt for heretics and abominations goes into overdrive. We all know how that affected the cultural and scientific progress... Sadly, remnants of that mindset still exist even after a millennium.


As for some works you can read on about Roman culture, try Cicero and Seneka. And pretty much every ancient Greek philosopher.


w00t i love you! that was very well said, i was a bit tired so i couldnt be bothered to provide the sources but thank you for helping my point :D

also, i HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend Caesar's campaign diaries and Suetonius' Twelve Caesars as well as Polybius' histories of Rome. They are great great reads.
TLO FIGHTING | me all in, he drone drone drone, me win - SK.MC | JINROLLED! | KraToss for the win
Shebuha
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1335 Posts
May 29 2011 21:27 GMT
#269
When I read about this sort of crap, I get friggen angry. Makes me so mad to see people treated like this, it's disgusting.
It makes me think about what would happen to me if I were there.

I don't want to say that it's the fault of religion, because it's not. It's one F'ed up Mormon that deserves some harsh shit.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 21:36:50
May 29 2011 21:28 GMT
#270
On May 30 2011 05:37 Xiron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 05:31 let_FLY wrote:
every fucking thread turns into a direct representation of what the internet feels is a proper representation of that country. grow up, if you really think the majority of americans feel this is necessary i can't even begin to form an insult that would likely result in a ban anyway.


Germans protest against nuclear power, government considers all pro's and con's, nuclear power plants are going to be turned off soon. The will of people made a choice. Ive never been to USA, but if you say "the majority of americans" doesnt want those camps, why are they still there? That doesnt really make sense to me. Do americans not care? In germany something like that would not be possible at all. Do you mind to explain me your thoughts?


They aren't still there. Nearly all of them have been sued out of existence, and the ones still functioning like Cross Creek are currently under investigation with their own lawsuits. This is not acceptable in America.

If you're asking "Why did this shit start to begin with?" I'll admit that it's totally fucked up. But if you're asking "Why is this allowed to continue?" then I'm telling you it's not.

For instance, Jailtime! http://wwasp.blogspot.com/2007/11/randall-hinton-sentenced-to-jail-for.html
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 21:44:47
May 29 2011 21:39 GMT
#271
On May 30 2011 04:17 nennx wrote:
Religion is definitely to blame here. The sooner we all abandon religion the better off mankind will be.


They abandoned religion in China.

Things are great over there.


On May 30 2011 04:09 nathangonmad wrote:
I never cease to be surprised by the united states.


I'm surprised as much as you are, though what makes you so certain that something like this doesn't exist in european countries? I don't know, I have to take the account with a grain of salt because I really believe that if it is as bad as this girl says, it would be all over the news.

Teachers are sued over here for breaking up fights and hugging. It's hard for me to believe this story and the POV isn't exactly objective.
GiftPflanZe
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Germany623 Posts
May 29 2011 21:42 GMT
#272
this is legal?I mean,this cant be legal,I dont know how they can open such camps.
...
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
May 29 2011 22:13 GMT
#273
People keep asking if this is legal. I'm just going to requote this part of the OP:

WWASP officials claim that the organization itself is out of business, probably because of their infamous history of abuse, but clearly all of the WWASP programs are still affiliated and WWASP has not completely faded out.
rickybobby
Profile Joined October 2010
United States405 Posts
May 29 2011 22:20 GMT
#274
tbh this is really a religious thing and has nothing to do with america... but really its the redneck parents who think that being gay is wrong so much that they would put their kid through something like this. South park has an episode about exactly this where kyle is forced to go to gay camp and all the other kids are committing suicide and stuff, its kind of fucked up but makes a good point (as south park always does)
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
May 29 2011 22:28 GMT
#275
On May 30 2011 05:47 Zealotdriver wrote:
I don't want to speak for let_fly, but here in the US we have a saying, C.R.E.A.M.
You try to defend against the american stereotyping by saying that even on this serious issue, all americans can think of is food? You're doing it wrong.
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
dOofuS
Profile Joined January 2009
United States342 Posts
May 29 2011 22:28 GMT
#276
On May 30 2011 04:13 JohnQPublic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2011 07:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Where is the evidence that this is a Mormon organization? It doesn't mention it anywhere on the site and google is turning up nothing. She said part of the evidence that it was Mormon was that she wasn't allowed to have caffeine?

I just want to get the facts straight here before we start bashing the "Mormon point of view." I know several Mormons and I know not a single one of them would support a program like this.

And just because some staff are Mormon doesn't make it a Mormon organization either.


The facility I went to was in provo, utah. If you know anything about provo, utah you know that 90% of its population is mormon. The entire time I was there I only met one staff member that was not a mormon and he was part of the security. This was a government funded facility and it had A MORMON CHURCH on the grounds. Every sunday you had 2 options 1) go to church and have a good time because everyone who went was awarded with privileges 2) sit in silence for 3 hours and do absolutely nothing. Suffice to say most people went to the church just so that they wouldn't be "punished".


I'm with jdseemoreglass. If this story had credibility, where are all the news stories? I've yet to see any news coverage of any of this, and assuming that the program has LDS affiliation because it prohibits caffeine is a red flag for me (LDS doctrine does not prohibit caffeine). The place is located in Utah, where there is a large population of Mormons, but that doesn't prove anything. That's like assuming that because someone starts a correctional facility in Brazil that gets accused of abusing young males, that it's likely tied to the Catholic church, since the majority of Brazilians are Catholic, right?

I feel like everyone's being trolled. If I'm wrong, then we'll see this on the news, and things will be forced to change, but discussing this on the TL.net forums just opens up the floodgates to religious, political, and national bigotry. I get more sick of the ignorant replies to this story than I do the actual story.
Reddit TroubledTeens
Profile Joined May 2011
United States4 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 22:52:02
May 29 2011 22:46 GMT
#277
Hi everyone,

I started the area of reddit you found this story in. I'm pixel8, I'm the person who originally posted that girl's horrifying tale.

I'm glad you are mad, you should be outraged by this story. We are talking about ways to fight these abusive facilities if you would like to join us.

Also, I've heard that many of the staff at these places are gamers that play overnight while the kids are sleeping. We are looking for employees that are disgusted and willing to covertly document the abuse. If you know of anyone, please contact me at reddittroubledteens@gmail.com.

This girl's story was, sadly enough, typical. These places exist in every state, hundreds of thousands of kids have been abused. There are huge survivor networks because the abuse is so rampant and traumatic. Yes, it's legal. There are no laws to protect these kids. YET.
WhuazGoodJaggah
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Lesotho777 Posts
May 29 2011 22:52 GMT
#278
On May 30 2011 05:07 The KY wrote:
^In regards to the 'choosing who you're attracted to' thing, the main argument against it is it makes no fucking sense. Either you are attracted to someone or you are not; when was the last time you looked at someone you didn't find attractive and said 'yeah I'm gonna be attracted to them now'. If there are any straight people who think you can choose to be gay, by all means go ahead, start being attracted to men now.

What's that? You don't want to? How bizarre.

I suppose there can be people that choose to have sex with their own gender even though they aren't attracted to them...but if they do exist they aren't exactly relevant.


You can choose to be attracted to someone by giving it a chance. You may not be attracted to that person at first but by spending time with this person you may become attracted to her/him.
small dicks have great firepower
NeonFox
Profile Joined January 2011
2373 Posts
May 29 2011 22:57 GMT
#279
This is fucking sick, why is it even allowed to exist. Human beings suck.
Olinim
Profile Joined March 2011
4044 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-29 23:16:26
May 29 2011 23:05 GMT
#280
On May 30 2011 07:52 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 05:07 The KY wrote:
^In regards to the 'choosing who you're attracted to' thing, the main argument against it is it makes no fucking sense. Either you are attracted to someone or you are not; when was the last time you looked at someone you didn't find attractive and said 'yeah I'm gonna be attracted to them now'. If there are any straight people who think you can choose to be gay, by all means go ahead, start being attracted to men now.

What's that? You don't want to? How bizarre.

I suppose there can be people that choose to have sex with their own gender even though they aren't attracted to them...but if they do exist they aren't exactly relevant.


You can choose to be attracted to someone by giving it a chance. You may not be attracted to that person at first but by spending time with this person you may become attracted to her/him.

Even if you could actually become attracted to the same sex just by getting to know them(lol) that's still not CHOOSING your attraction to them. If it did happen, it would happen naturally, not by a conscious decision.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 02:46:22
May 30 2011 02:45 GMT
#281
--- Nuked ---
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 05:23:28
May 30 2011 05:22 GMT
#282
On May 30 2011 07:46 Reddit TroubledTeens wrote:
Hi everyone,

I started the area of reddit you found this story in. I'm pixel8, I'm the person who originally posted that girl's horrifying tale.

I'm glad you are mad, you should be outraged by this story. We are talking about ways to fight these abusive facilities if you would like to join us.

Also, I've heard that many of the staff at these places are gamers that play overnight while the kids are sleeping. We are looking for employees that are disgusted and willing to covertly document the abuse. If you know of anyone, please contact me at reddittroubledteens@gmail.com.

This girl's story was, sadly enough, typical. These places exist in every state, hundreds of thousands of kids have been abused. There are huge survivor networks because the abuse is so rampant and traumatic. Yes, it's legal. There are no laws to protect these kids. YET.


Hi thanks for posting.

As you can see there is a general sense of outrage here. I think it would be good for the crediblity of this OP if you could post some links to other articles that have independently verified that this actually happens.

I am not calling you out but these allegations are serious and I am sure I am not the only one who would like to see some of the information you are collecting.

Thanks again and good luck!

Edit: Spelling
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
Reddit TroubledTeens
Profile Joined May 2011
United States4 Posts
May 30 2011 08:12 GMT
#283
Thank you, Probulous, I am happy to provide back up sources.

TIME.com article about abusive programs & how the internet can create change:
http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/05/increasingly-internet-activism-helps-shutter-abusive-troubled-teen-boot-camps/

Montana PBS video, 'Who's Watching the Kids?'. Riveting, explains why state's hands are tied and the corruption involved. There is a segment in the beginning of a brainwashed family, but then it gets really good:
http://watch.montanapbs.org/video/1430387622/

WWASP links:

Facebook group of WWASP survivors:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_2206196427

More WWASP survivors:
http://www.antiwwasp.us/forum.php

Even more:
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Category:WWASP

Mit Romney's connection to WWASP:
http://reason.com/archives/2007/06/27/romney-torture-and-teens

Verified Q&A on reddit of a WWASP student, with pics of evidence of his attendance:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/gtrdr/iama_survivor_of_wwasp_schools_tranquility_bay/

Or just google WWASP

Non-WWASP facilities (yeah, there's lots more):

This will turn your stomach. Gv't report on this kid's death, they found the people who were watching over him to be negligent, but released all charges because 'the facility closed'. They did not investigate Aspen, who owns a chain of facilities who's policies caused this kid's death, nor the employees who taunted him as he was dying. This is not a WWASP facility, but another conglomeration like WWASP called Aspen Education Group. They have had many deaths over the years, google it.
http://www.cafety.org/privately-funded-programs/834-abuse-investigation-a-protective-services-report-death-of-sb-or-sagewalk

Family School Foundation TRUTH, they have prompted 3 NY dept's to investigate, they found violations but their hands were tied, all they could do was 'make recommendations' for change:
http://www.thefamilyschooltruth.com/State_Investigates_Abuse.html

Here is a list of children who have died in facilities. Notice all the (R)'s by the names. They indicate children that died by being restrained, often by employees that were not properly trained, who thought that the kid's thrashing was because of defiance, not a struggle to live:
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/INMEMORIAM.html
There is a legend in a white box towards the bottom of the page that tells what each child's death was a result of.

Overview of the entire industry:
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Scroll up a little for a listing of abusive facilities by state:
http://www.heal-online.org/childtortureusa.htm#alabama1

Baptist Gulag survivor group:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Independent-Fundamental-Baptist-IFB-Cult-Survivors-and-Their-Supporters/207805449251466
________________________________

Want more? There's lots more. Come to www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens, or do your own research. It's really not hard to find.

Thank you for caring. This is a billion-dollar industry based on abusing & brainwashing kids to maximize profits, and it needs to stop today. It's unbelievable that they get away with these things, but there is no law against it. Really.
Reddit TroubledTeens
Profile Joined May 2011
United States4 Posts
May 30 2011 08:18 GMT
#284
Again, if you are outraged, come here to use your powers for good and stop this abuse. Thanks.
cbt111
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany35 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 09:19:25
May 30 2011 09:04 GMT
#285
like someone mentioned, it sounds like a weird book and not like something that's actually happening. i hope these people get what they deserve.
PlaGuE_R
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
France1151 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-30 09:07:52
May 30 2011 09:07 GMT
#286
On May 30 2011 17:18 Reddit TroubledTeens wrote:
Again, if you are outraged, come here to use your powers for good and stop this abuse. Thanks.


TeamLiquid, the premier place for common sense on the internet.
TLO FIGHTING | me all in, he drone drone drone, me win - SK.MC | JINROLLED! | KraToss for the win
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
May 31 2011 04:10 GMT
#287
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 30 2011 17:12 Reddit TroubledTeens wrote:
Thank you, Probulous, I am happy to provide back up sources.

TIME.com article about abusive programs & how the internet can create change:
http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/05/increasingly-internet-activism-helps-shutter-abusive-troubled-teen-boot-camps/

Montana PBS video, 'Who's Watching the Kids?'. Riveting, explains why state's hands are tied and the corruption involved. There is a segment in the beginning of a brainwashed family, but then it gets really good:
http://watch.montanapbs.org/video/1430387622/

WWASP links:

Facebook group of WWASP survivors:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_2206196427

More WWASP survivors:
http://www.antiwwasp.us/forum.php

Even more:
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Category:WWASP

Mit Romney's connection to WWASP:
http://reason.com/archives/2007/06/27/romney-torture-and-teens

Verified Q&A on reddit of a WWASP student, with pics of evidence of his attendance:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/gtrdr/iama_survivor_of_wwasp_schools_tranquility_bay/

Or just google WWASP

Non-WWASP facilities (yeah, there's lots more):

This will turn your stomach. Gv't report on this kid's death, they found the people who were watching over him to be negligent, but released all charges because 'the facility closed'. They did not investigate Aspen, who owns a chain of facilities who's policies caused this kid's death, nor the employees who taunted him as he was dying. This is not a WWASP facility, but another conglomeration like WWASP called Aspen Education Group. They have had many deaths over the years, google it.
http://www.cafety.org/privately-funded-programs/834-abuse-investigation-a-protective-services-report-death-of-sb-or-sagewalk

Family School Foundation TRUTH, they have prompted 3 NY dept's to investigate, they found violations but their hands were tied, all they could do was 'make recommendations' for change:
http://www.thefamilyschooltruth.com/State_Investigates_Abuse.html

Here is a list of children who have died in facilities. Notice all the (R)'s by the names. They indicate children that died by being restrained, often by employees that were not properly trained, who thought that the kid's thrashing was because of defiance, not a struggle to live:
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/INMEMORIAM.html
There is a legend in a white box towards the bottom of the page that tells what each child's death was a result of.

Overview of the entire industry:
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Scroll up a little for a listing of abusive facilities by state:
http://www.heal-online.org/childtortureusa.htm#alabama1

Baptist Gulag survivor group:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Independent-Fundamental-Baptist-IFB-Cult-Survivors-and-Their-Supporters/207805449251466
________________________________

Want more? There's lots more. Come to www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens, or do your own research. It's really not hard to find.

Thank you for caring. This is a billion-dollar industry based on abusing & brainwashing kids to maximize profits, and it needs to stop today. It's unbelievable that they get away with these things, but there is no law against it. Really.


Thanks for this info. So often something like this appears on forums and it turns out to be a beat up (no pun intended, seriously).

Will have a look. I think the OP should include this.

Thanks again and goodluck!
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
May 31 2011 04:22 GMT
#288
On May 30 2011 06:39 happyness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 04:17 nennx wrote:
Religion is definitely to blame here. The sooner we all abandon religion the better off mankind will be.


They abandoned religion in China.

Things are great over there.

Things actually are fine there. Not sure what you're trying to insinuate...

The only issues really come from the communist party and overpopulation, which have nothing to do with religion.
Reddit TroubledTeens
Profile Joined May 2011
United States4 Posts
May 31 2011 10:38 GMT
#289
Thanks for this info. So often something like this appears on forums and it turns out to be a beat up (no pun intended, seriously).

Will have a look. I think the OP should include this.

Thanks again and goodluck!


No prob! Glad to do it!
Arnstein
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway3381 Posts
May 31 2011 10:45 GMT
#290
We should try to spread this to as many famous people as possible. I've already sent a mail to Richard Dawkins Foundation, and I advice you to do the same, so it can become a featured article/get a comment from Richard Dawkins himself.

http://richarddawkins.net/

I guess this is the right place to mail it to:
Article Submissions:
If you would like to submit a link to an article online for discussion on RichardDawkins.net, please send an email WITH THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE IN THE SUBJECT LINE and the link in the body to articles@richarddawkins.net. Please include the name by which you would like to be publicly credited.
rsol in response to the dragoon voice being heard in SCII: dragoon ai reaches new lows: wanders into wrong game
P3T3R
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada87 Posts
May 31 2011 10:52 GMT
#291
TL;DR

Anyone care to summarize or has anyone in the 15 pages do so already?
Based on little reading, it's about some camp that turns gays into straights? or wat?

User was temp banned for this post.
"I don't care about the law. I care about justice"
KaiserJohan
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1808 Posts
May 31 2011 11:07 GMT
#292
Can't believe its legal in a modern(?) state. Shameful display!
England will fight to the last American
Artanis[Xp]
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Netherlands12968 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-31 11:21:35
May 31 2011 11:19 GMT
#293
On May 31 2011 19:52 P3T3R wrote:
TL;DR

Anyone care to summarize or has anyone in the 15 pages do so already?
Based on little reading, it's about some camp that turns gays into straights? or wat?

Please have some respect for the person who wrote this. She spent 2.5 years being robbed of her freedom whilst being abused in various ways and you can't bring yourself up to flip through a few pages? Makes me wonder why you even posted.

On topic: Absolutely terrible what happened here, though I've heard of this kind of thing before. Will educate myself further on the topic and see if I can make myself useful. Appreciate the links, pixel8.
ohGr
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden42 Posts
May 31 2011 11:38 GMT
#294
Disgusting, but not very surprising - now is it?
He's not dumb, he's just neural parasited by a retarded infestor.
Arnstein
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway3381 Posts
May 31 2011 13:24 GMT
#295
On May 29 2011 14:45 Barrin wrote:As far as I'm concerned you're not really hurting anybody (well if you want to get technical its on the same level as masturbation with the whole millions of sperm i.e. potential humans that do not get a chance - but nobody really cares about that - actually Mormons do now that I think about it.....).


Even if you have sex with a woman and you don't use a condom, you still kill millions of sperm cells, except the one that (maybe) makes it to the egg.
rsol in response to the dragoon voice being heard in SCII: dragoon ai reaches new lows: wanders into wrong game
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
May 31 2011 13:36 GMT
#296
Somehow, I'm not surprised at all...
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
kellymilkies
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Singapore1393 Posts
May 31 2011 13:49 GMT
#297
just read this story. not even sure if this is like out of a horror movie or something because it sure sounds like it.
Be the change you wish to see in the world ^-^V //
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
May 31 2011 13:56 GMT
#298
Really, already the name "Behavioural modification camp" sounds like something from a fascist dictatorship.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10716 Posts
May 31 2011 13:59 GMT
#299
On May 31 2011 22:56 Simberto wrote:
Really, already the name "Behavioural modification camp" sounds like something from a fascist dictatorship.


As long as it is not communist it's fine .
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 36m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 53333
Horang2 1704
Nal_rA 629
EffOrt 261
ggaemo 249
Leta 206
ToSsGirL 156
Aegong 57
Movie 23
Hm[arnc] 12
[ Show more ]
Bale 10
Dota 2
ODPixel424
League of Legends
JimRising 801
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K902
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang01007
Mew2King96
Other Games
summit1g7527
WinterStarcraft486
NeuroSwarm51
JuggernautJason23
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick812
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta28
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1800
• Stunt524
• HappyZerGling87
Other Games
• Scarra1028
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4h 36m
RSL Revival
10h 36m
PiGosaur Monday
17h 36m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 4h
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
LiuLi Cup
3 days
Online Event
4 days
SC Evo League
4 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
CSO Contender
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
5 days
SC Evo League
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Sharp vs Ample
Larva vs Stork
Wardi Open
6 days
RotterdaM Event
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.