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Its a horrible decision no question about it, secondhand smoke is dangerous but its incredibly easily avoidable in wide open areas like parks and beaches to the point where any risk is completely negligible. Anyone can just politely ask the person smoking to move or walk away themselves. The notion that this law was made to protect people from secondhand smoke is a complete joke, if anything this law does the opposite of that.
Now when people want to smoke they can't go relax on a secluded park bench, nope instead they have to stand on the crowded fucking sidewalk and expose 10x as many people to secondhand smoke. It just doesn't make any sense from that perspective. Believe it or not smokers have no interest in exposing people to secondhand smoke and would probably love to go relax far away from people.
The real reason this law was passed is the same reason prohibition existed, marijuana is currently legal, and in many states you can't buy alcohol on sundays. Its the govt trying to legislate morality which in concept is a total joke, an antithesis to freedom and (least importantly) a waste of time. Public health has its place but the governments job is to inform people of risks and let them make their own informed decisions, not do it for them.
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On May 24 2011 10:07 fush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:56 jinorazi wrote:On May 24 2011 09:54 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer. Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death. -COPD -Asthma crisis -Pneumonia -Bladder cancer -Upper digestive tract cancer -Gastric cancer -Esophagus cancer -Acute heart infarction -Congestive heart failure -Acute cerebral stroke -Deep vein thrombosis -Pulmonary thromboembolism -Upper respiratory tract infection -Uterine cervix cancer -Low birth weight -Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise) -Dyslipidemia -Arterial hypertension -Obstructive arterial disease -Aortic aneurysm -Intracerebral bleeding -Subarachnoid hemorrhage -Kidney cancer -Osteoporosis -Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction -Decreased estrogen in females -Pancreatic cancer -Atherosclerosis -Chronic kidney disease -Worsening of diabetic nephropathy -Alzheimer's disease -Tuberculosis Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers. "About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers. Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit. The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports. TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why. no one is arguing smoking isn't bad. where is the evidence that says short term exposure to outdoor SHS is bad? Effect of Secondhand Smoke on Occupancy of Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptors in Brain. Brody AL, Mandelkern MA, London ED, Khan A, Kozman D, Costello MR, Vellios EE, Archie MM, Bascom R, Mukhin AG. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21536968Cigarette smoking saturates brain alpha 4 beta 2 nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Brody AL, Mandelkern MA, London ED, Olmstead RE, Farahi J, Scheibal D, Jou J, Allen V, Tiongson E, Chefer SI, Koren AO, Mukhin AG. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16894067can't help you if you don't have access to papers, but you asked for the evidence. the 2nd paper shows that 1 puff of cigarette smoke can occupy receptors in your brain (and likely elsewhere, since nicotinic receptors bind nicotine with very high affinity around the body) for 3 hours. The only thing this study says in it's conclusion relevant to this discussion is:
"This study has implications for both biological research into the link between SHS exposure and cigarette use and public policy regarding the need to limit SHS exposure in cars and other enclosed spaces."
Enclosed spaces, not a SHS in an outdoor area.
On May 24 2011 10:06 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:56 jinorazi wrote:On May 24 2011 09:54 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer. Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death. -COPD -Asthma crisis -Pneumonia -Bladder cancer -Upper digestive tract cancer -Gastric cancer -Esophagus cancer -Acute heart infarction -Congestive heart failure -Acute cerebral stroke -Deep vein thrombosis -Pulmonary thromboembolism -Upper respiratory tract infection -Uterine cervix cancer -Low birth weight -Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise) -Dyslipidemia -Arterial hypertension -Obstructive arterial disease -Aortic aneurysm -Intracerebral bleeding -Subarachnoid hemorrhage -Kidney cancer -Osteoporosis -Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction -Decreased estrogen in females -Pancreatic cancer -Atherosclerosis -Chronic kidney disease -Worsening of diabetic nephropathy -Alzheimer's disease -Tuberculosis Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers. "About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers. Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit. The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports. TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why. no one is arguing smoking isn't bad. where is the evidence that says short term exposure to outdoor SHS is bad? You should read the posts quoted... but anyways... just pulled out of my ass: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440792/http://www.bmj.com/content/315/7114/980.abstracthttp://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/111/20/2684http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1440-1843.2003.00453.x/fullIt took me less than a minute to find these four... all in respectable publications, and just a VERY small sample of the INSANE amounts of evidence available. Of course you can't just take these and instantly interpretate them as truth. However, the point stands, there IS scientific evidence, lots of it. One more thing, cigarette effects are cumulative, which means if people smoke in my environment, even for small amounts of time, through the years I will be progressively damaged by it. I don't know what you define as "short term exposure", but it doesn't really matter. A little every day for many years is likely to cause me tons of trouble. The paper regarding the effects on asthma only had one relevant conclusion to SHS outdoors, and that is that pollution skews the results of research regarding tobacco.. None of the others mention outdoor SHS as something significant.
Edit: Missed a word, and it's way too late for me, good night all. Gonna check back in tomorrow!
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On May 24 2011 10:18 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:14 Baarn wrote:
There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year rose by 51% for products like Camel Snus. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this. What people often don't realise, is that there's plenty evidence that has linked smokeless tobacco with many of the same diseases as regular cigarettes.
Sure but it's not like a non smoker will be bothered by someone using smokeless tobacco.
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United States5162 Posts
On May 24 2011 10:21 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:18 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 Baarn wrote:
There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year rose by 51% for products like Camel Snus. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this. What people often don't realise, is that there's plenty evidence that has linked smokeless tobacco with many of the same diseases as regular cigarettes. Sure but it's not like a non smoker will be bothered by someone using smokeless tobacco.
Sure they will. They'll bitch about the spit.
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On May 24 2011 10:24 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:21 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 10:18 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 Baarn wrote:
There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year rose by 51% for products like Camel Snus. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this. What people often don't realise, is that there's plenty evidence that has linked smokeless tobacco with many of the same diseases as regular cigarettes. Sure but it's not like a non smoker will be bothered by someone using smokeless tobacco. Sure they will. They'll bitch about the spit.
Camel snus you don't spit or chew it.
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I just give the non smokers the same treatment they give me...
Finger.
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United States5162 Posts
On May 24 2011 10:26 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:24 Myles wrote:On May 24 2011 10:21 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 10:18 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 Baarn wrote:
There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year rose by 51% for products like Camel Snus. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this. What people often don't realise, is that there's plenty evidence that has linked smokeless tobacco with many of the same diseases as regular cigarettes. Sure but it's not like a non smoker will be bothered by someone using smokeless tobacco. Sure they will. They'll bitch about the spit. Camel snus you don't spit or chew it.
Oh, well that's cool. I guess they'll just have to make all smokeless tobacco like that then.
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On May 24 2011 10:26 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:24 Myles wrote:On May 24 2011 10:21 Baarn wrote:On May 24 2011 10:18 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 Baarn wrote:
There has been a rise in smokeless tobacco sales since this prohibition of smoking in certain places has started. Sales last year rose by 51% for products like Camel Snus. Seems like people are embracing those products to get the nicotine in response to all of this. What people often don't realise, is that there's plenty evidence that has linked smokeless tobacco with many of the same diseases as regular cigarettes. Sure but it's not like a non smoker will be bothered by someone using smokeless tobacco. Sure they will. They'll bitch about the spit. Camel snus you don't spit or chew it.
But it's a quarter of the pleasure of a real cigarette.
That and the act of smoking itself is fascinating. The smoke, the rings, the color. All that will be lost in time like tear drops in the rain.
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On May 24 2011 06:04 Valestrum wrote:
I'm glad, smoking is a bad habit. It doesn't do anything good for us.
so is eating too much and being lazy.
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I wonder what they say about hookah bars
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nothing like "Controling the fire / being a dragon feeling" you get from a fag as Bill Hicks puts it..
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Nothing to do with Anarchy. There are obvious ways to prevent visual pollution and second hand smoking, banning cigarettes is a non socially efficient way to do so.
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2nd hand smoke kills "50,000 a year" but 10 zillion cars on the road spitting out the same smoke does nothing? hmmm.... good thing all those people in the park will be safe from all the deadly smoke... unless of course all the smokers that are now on the sidewalk smoking instead of the park position themselves so that a good strong breeze will still blow all the smoke over like some kind of smoke siege tank. lookout for the smoke! it does aoe damage!! NYC and most other major american cities fail so hard. if your not rich, white, and absurdly paranoid regarding safety and health you are not welcome.
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wow this is a fucking joke, i dont smoke ciggs but this is ridic. second hand smoke doesnt kill anyone thats hilarious.
man... i fear for my future kids future! they wont have any freedoms.
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On May 24 2011 10:20 Clearout wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:07 fush wrote:On May 24 2011 09:56 jinorazi wrote:On May 24 2011 09:54 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer. Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death. -COPD -Asthma crisis -Pneumonia -Bladder cancer -Upper digestive tract cancer -Gastric cancer -Esophagus cancer -Acute heart infarction -Congestive heart failure -Acute cerebral stroke -Deep vein thrombosis -Pulmonary thromboembolism -Upper respiratory tract infection -Uterine cervix cancer -Low birth weight -Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise) -Dyslipidemia -Arterial hypertension -Obstructive arterial disease -Aortic aneurysm -Intracerebral bleeding -Subarachnoid hemorrhage -Kidney cancer -Osteoporosis -Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction -Decreased estrogen in females -Pancreatic cancer -Atherosclerosis -Chronic kidney disease -Worsening of diabetic nephropathy -Alzheimer's disease -Tuberculosis Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers. "About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers. Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit. The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports. TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why. no one is arguing smoking isn't bad. where is the evidence that says short term exposure to outdoor SHS is bad? Effect of Secondhand Smoke on Occupancy of Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptors in Brain. Brody AL, Mandelkern MA, London ED, Khan A, Kozman D, Costello MR, Vellios EE, Archie MM, Bascom R, Mukhin AG. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21536968Cigarette smoking saturates brain alpha 4 beta 2 nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Brody AL, Mandelkern MA, London ED, Olmstead RE, Farahi J, Scheibal D, Jou J, Allen V, Tiongson E, Chefer SI, Koren AO, Mukhin AG. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16894067can't help you if you don't have access to papers, but you asked for the evidence. the 2nd paper shows that 1 puff of cigarette smoke can occupy receptors in your brain (and likely elsewhere, since nicotinic receptors bind nicotine with very high affinity around the body) for 3 hours. The only thing this study says in it's conclusion relevant to this discussion is: "This study has implications for both biological research into the link between SHS exposure and cigarette use and public policy regarding the need to limit SHS exposure in cars and other enclosed spaces." Enclosed spaces, not a SHS in an outdoor area. Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:06 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 09:56 jinorazi wrote:On May 24 2011 09:54 mordk wrote:On May 24 2011 08:58 Lexpar wrote:On May 24 2011 08:56 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:52 alexhard wrote:On May 24 2011 08:41 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 24 2011 08:38 Lexpar wrote:
Whats next? No public fornication? No target practice in public parks? God damn it, if we don't have our freedom what DO we have?
yeah, you dont have the freedom to give yourself cancer and emphysema and heart disease (in some public places) anymore. this is so terrible I wonder if you guys would be saying the same if they were banning something harmful that you like. Say...red meat? No more burgers for you. It makes sense after all, they're bad for you. The argument can be replicated ad nauseam: people do a lot of things that are harmful to themselves, but that is not a legitimate reason to ban them. yeah it is, when the health system foots the bill for removing some moron's cancer or disgusting, cancer-ridden lungs. if red meat as banned, i wouldnt give a shit either. im sure some cows would rejoice though what are the reasons people smoke anyway? to look cool? to relax? do some meditation or some other junk that doesnt affect anyone else Cardiac disease (caused primarily from trans and saturated fat, which red meat is exceptionally high in) is the biggest killer in the country. More than cancer. Cigarette smoking causes MANY more deaths from cardiac disease than from lung cancer. People just don't know enough about cigarettes. Heart disease is actually the first cause of cigarette related death. -COPD -Asthma crisis -Pneumonia -Bladder cancer -Upper digestive tract cancer -Gastric cancer -Esophagus cancer -Acute heart infarction -Congestive heart failure -Acute cerebral stroke -Deep vein thrombosis -Pulmonary thromboembolism -Upper respiratory tract infection -Uterine cervix cancer -Low birth weight -Children's respiratory infections (Viral, bacterial, or otherwise) -Dyslipidemia -Arterial hypertension -Obstructive arterial disease -Aortic aneurysm -Intracerebral bleeding -Subarachnoid hemorrhage -Kidney cancer -Osteoporosis -Decreased testosterone and erectile dysfunction -Decreased estrogen in females -Pancreatic cancer -Atherosclerosis -Chronic kidney disease -Worsening of diabetic nephropathy -Alzheimer's disease -Tuberculosis Cigarette smoking is a risk factor of, or at least strongly related to, all of these conditions, most of them for active AND passive smokers. "About 22,700 to 69,600 premature deaths from heart and blood vessel disease are caused by other people's smoke each year." American Heart Association. Note that this only covers heart disease, around 4000 lung cancers are diagnosed in passive smokers. Also note that 1 cigarette a day for many years is as harmful as many cigarettes for less years, and the damage is permanent and not reversible by stopping the habit. The big difference with, say, red meat, is that I can't increase someone else's risk of dying by eating lots of red meat. When people smoke a lot around me, my risk of death increases. If I can't walk the streets freely because there's smokers everywhere, we have a problem. Someone's actively, even if indirectly, affecting my freedom, by threatening my life in the long run. It may seem extreme to say it like that, but it's the truth, backed by hundreds of scientific reports. TLDR; Cigarettes are probably the worst of all vices, the post explains why. no one is arguing smoking isn't bad. where is the evidence that says short term exposure to outdoor SHS is bad? You should read the posts quoted... but anyways... just pulled out of my ass: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440792/http://www.bmj.com/content/315/7114/980.abstracthttp://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/111/20/2684http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1440-1843.2003.00453.x/fullIt took me less than a minute to find these four... all in respectable publications, and just a VERY small sample of the INSANE amounts of evidence available. Of course you can't just take these and instantly interpretate them as truth. However, the point stands, there IS scientific evidence, lots of it. One more thing, cigarette effects are cumulative, which means if people smoke in my environment, even for small amounts of time, through the years I will be progressively damaged by it. I don't know what you define as "short term exposure", but it doesn't really matter. A little every day for many years is likely to cause me tons of trouble. The paper regarding the effects on asthma only had one relevant conclusion to SHS outdoors, and that is that pollution skews the results of research regarding tobacco.. None of the others mention outdoor SHS as something significant. Edit: Missed a word, and it's way too late for me, good night all. Gonna check back in tomorrow!
This is exactly the point. You can argue about second hand smoke when trying to ban smoking indoors, but it simply doesn't hold water for outdoor smoking. Everyone knows secondhand smoke is bad for you, the effects simply aren't significant for short term exposure outside.
There's something I don't understand. The people who defend smoking bans like this are often the same people who freak out when you try to ban trans-fats in restaurants. It's essentially the same thing. Outdoor smoking doesn't hurt anyone but the smoker.
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On May 24 2011 06:04 Valestrum wrote:
I'm glad, smoking is a bad habit. It doesn't do anything good for us.
Banning bad habits is not what government is for.
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It infringes upon a smokers rights to not have all his white furniture turn a nasty shade of yellow. Obviously unconstitutional.
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+ Show Spoiler +
Smoking bandit has to happen in real life. Make it happen New York!
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What's funny is all the potheads want to legalize weed, and when I bring up this issue with weed they say "stop being a little bitch."
Legalize everything or criminalize everything, just stop the hypocrisy.
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On May 24 2011 10:42 DatBoiRijad wrote:
What's funny is all the potheads want to legalize weed, and when I bring up this issue with weed they say "stop being a little bitch."
Legalize everything or criminalize everything, just stop the hypocrisy.
By God I hope it's the former; I can't imagine a world if the latter were to take place.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/09rLE.jpg)
