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On May 30 2011 06:58 sTromSK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 06:49 maartendq wrote:On May 30 2011 06:45 sTromSK wrote:
i dont want to generalize too much.. it always depends on each person and his ability to use particular martial art in a fight..
but 5 years of active training of MMA gives you more fighting experience than 5 years of training krav maga without sparring
the art i dont like very much is WT, its philosophy of being extremely efficient is great but it totally falls on the training methods and the art itself. You just cant learn "how to defend a takedown" when there is no wrestler in the gym who could actually take someone down and you cant knockout a boxer because youve never fought one.. (extreme examples but you get the point) WT and Krav Maga can prepare you mentally and you can have the advantage of knowing what to do and can really surprise even more skilled oponnent but if you dont manage to do it you will have a hard time..
in competitions you utilize only those techniques which really work and can win you the match, master them against an oponnent who actively tries to defend and counterattack.. Stop thinking in terms of competition when mentioning Krav Maga. It's not made for that. It's not made for takedowns, it's made for KILLING. I was talking about what I think can prepare you better for the killing.. if you didnt break someones arm in the training (or forced the person to tap) the odds are you aint doing it against someone who actually defended this kind of attack many times before (similiar with other techniques). Therefore the killing isnt that simple.. of course there is a reason krav maga is taught in armies all over the world, was already mentioned. Context Im talking about is a little bit different 
I'm not that experienced with sparring since I practice a martial art that doesn't do it at all (aikido).. or at least not in the traditional way. We spar in the sense that we attack with intent (if you're not moving, it'll hit pretty damn hard) and won't go down if a technique is not executed well. Most of my training is dedicated to being a good uke (attacker), which has given me a lot of insight in most techniques.
What I learned is as follows:
1) when you attack, attack with the intent to seriously hurt your training partner if he doesn't move. Some people need this kind of motivation to actually move aside.
2) when atemi (fake punches meant to temporarily unbalance and/or surprise the attacker) are given, evade rather than try to block them or bend. Evading and getting your composure back (meaning that you're ready for another attack) will teach Tori (the defending person; the one who executes the technique) to a) react to attackers who know what they're doing and b) to stay in a good composure themselves.
3) (in the vein of 2) always try to stay centered (= keep a good composure) and keep (eye) contact with Tori. This keeps it real for tori (an attacker should always keep attempting to land a blow on the defender in order to keep it real) while teaching uke the deeper dynamics of a technique; ie. if the defender does this, I can get out this way so I should try to avoid doing this when I'm in the role of the defender.
4) if you can no longer get into a decent composure and you can roll out of a lock, do so. Rolling out of a lock will allow you to get your composure back and launch another attack at Tori. If a technique is good, you should not be able to roll out of it, unless the nature of the technique is to throw uke, of course.
5) Neither tori nor uke will learn anything if all uke does is merely resist the technique. Uke will end up focussing so much on resisting that he will forget how open he is to punches and kicks from tori. Instead of resisting, try to find a safe opening to either release yourself or launch a decisive attack at tori while going with the technique. Aikido is about non-resistance and that also counts for Uke. If no such opening can be found it means that tori was successfully able to restrain you.
6) Use ukemi (rolling & doing breakfalls) only to escape a position that is unfavorable to you. Do not roll or do a break fall when it is not necessary. It looks good but it's martially completely useless.
There's probably more but I can't think of it right now. The gist of it is really composure, composure, composure. The role of attacker is generally hugely underestimated in Aikido.
EDIT: why the fuck am I writing this on a starcraft 2 forum? -.-"
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On May 30 2011 07:11 sTromSK wrote:Show nested quote +Have you got any videos about that more martial BJJ? I'm actually really curious about it. BJJ Self Defense Techniques - Royce and Charles Gracie - check this book, you will get the idea..
Thanks, I'll look it up!
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Russian Federation1401 Posts
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I have been boxing for 10 years, Dutch kickboxing for 4, muay thai for 3, catch wrestling for 3, jiu jitsu no gi for 1 year. Competed in grappling tournaments soon gonna grappler's quest in las vegas and stopped doing mma due to my son being born and finishing my career.
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I did BJJ for a few months on and off because I kept moving and couldn't consistently stay at one gym. Shawn Williams owns an MMA gym near my area (didn't know who he was until I did a free trial week there, apparently he's really big in the jiu jitsu scene). I plan to go back when I'm in the states again but I'm in Korea right now and MMA/BJJ gyms seem to be rare 
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Just a question for those training in Krav Maga: if you're not a soldier, then why are you learning it?
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France1231 Posts
Amateur boxing represent.
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On May 30 2011 08:32 Kukaracha wrote:
Just a question for those training in Krav Maga: if you're not a soldier, then why are you learning it?
So they can brag about how they could masterfully defeat 5 man armed with daggers by kicking them on the balls, poking them in the eyes, attacking the throath and etc...
as if all those things didnt exist in BJJ or even other MAs, they just dont teach em at every corner because well, successfull MAs have things where you can compete at, and those are given all the space in media, training.
a BJJ black belt will poke your eyes and twist your balls but he will do that while being a black belt in BJJ so by trying to defend your eye poke you will be opening yourself for other subs, the Krav Maga guy is totally out of his envyroment in the moment there isnt someone rushing into him like a retard.
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ive been doing goju-ryu karate for at least 7 years now. i attend tournaments and practice almost everyday.
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did muay thai/bjj for 1 year, daido-juku for 1 year
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trained kickboxing for 6 years and trained kuntao silat for almost 1,5 years.
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I've been training BJJ for four years
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Been unofficially training BJJ on and off for about 206 years now, I'm pretty much a black belt.
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On May 30 2011 10:25 BackHo wrote:
Been unofficially training BJJ on and off for about 206 years now, I'm pretty much a black belt.
206 years ? Might as well be Helio's Grandpa
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3 years of BJJ. Pedro Sauer lineage.
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I trained BJJ for 3 years, was a blue belt at Royce Gracie- Jim Hughes school but don't have the money to keep up the training as of now.
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On May 30 2011 09:20 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 08:32 Kukaracha wrote:
Just a question for those training in Krav Maga: if you're not a soldier, then why are you learning it? So they can brag about how they could masterfully defeat 5 man armed with daggers by kicking them on the balls, poking them in the eyes, attacking the throath and etc... as if all those things didnt exist in BJJ or even other MAs, they just dont teach em at every corner because well, successfull MAs have things where you can compete at, and those are given all the space in media, training. a BJJ black belt will poke your eyes and twist your balls but he will do that while being a black belt in BJJ so by trying to defend your eye poke you will be opening yourself for other subs, the Krav Maga guy is totally out of his envyroment in the moment there isnt someone rushing into him like a retard.
Stop.Mentioning.The.Word.Compete.And.Krav.Maga.In.One.Sentence.
You really don't read anything that has been said in this thread, don't you? You cannot compare Krav Maga and BJJ in a competitive environment, unless you give the Krav Maga guy access to a knife, base ball bat or the likes. You'd basically have to pit an armed mossad operative against an unarmed bjj specialist.
One of the "rules" of krav maga: if you or another person is under attack, use ANY MEANS NECESSARY to dispose of the attacker. That includes weapons you may have on you.
You cannot compete at Krav Maga, but it is sheer arrogance to say that a martial art that is trained by soldiers around the world, including elite units, is ineffective just because it doesn't work in the ring.
A black belt in BJJ will not poke eyes and will not twist someone's balls mainly because they are not conditioned to do so. Martial arts is purely conditioning your body to react to a certain threat in a certain way. Fights are over in mere seconds. If you don't have the reflex of going for someone's eyes or groin, you won't go for it. You'll resort to what you've been training the last couple of years, which in BJJ is going to the ground and hoping your attacker did not bring any friends. I could say the same with my aikido: yeah I could kick him there or throw a punch there, but I won't. I just won't. I'm not conditioned to do so.
I suggest you read this. The most important line in the article is this one: Anytime you go for the opponent’s legs, you have no choice but to expose your head, neck and spine. Even the mildly experienced street punk knows how to counter-attack with devastating results when the opponents makes such a glaring mistake. But since UFC and other competitive formats don't allow striking to the back of the head or spine, BJJ players can get away with it.
The conclusion of the article (which has a lot of valid points) is: BJJ is good inside the ring, incredibly flawed in a real situation, and not superior to any other grappling martial art.
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On May 30 2011 16:15 maartendq wrote:
A black belt in BJJ will not poke eyes and will not twist someone's balls mainly because they are not conditioned to do so.
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The black belts you know, who fight under competitions, thats what you are not understanding.
You should know the BJJ BOPE uses isnt the same you see in competition, for instance, the old school BJJ used in Vale Tudo fights was way more hardcore than you imagine.
Krav Maga is just a few manneuvers, it doesnt give you all the knowledge you require to be able to properly fight an able opponent.
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Russian Federation1401 Posts
First of all, how exactly are you ''conditioned'' to go for the eye poke or the groin, if you can't actually practice it against other trained professionals? If you're not a soldier in Israel, Chechnya, Somalia, Iraq or the likes, you have no business training Krav Maga. You simply can't practice it efficiently. That's why in the middle class modern world in which the most that can happen to you is a bar fight or getting mugged, a person who trains and competes against other proffesionals regularly (BJJ, Judo, Sambo, TKD etc...) will have the upper hand in unarmed combat situation. Even if it is a knife fight, I would pick a sport martial artist over any thug. The distance control and reflexes will be so much better anyway, unless the thug is a Silat master or something.
Don't think a Judoka won't stomp his foot in your groin after he broke your ribs on the concrete, or a wrestler won't bite your face off after double legging you. You can't stop a takedown if you don't know how to sprawl properly, thinking that you would knee him or hit him in the spine or the back of the head. That's what every non-grappler wants to believe.
EDIT: Also I believe the U.S Marines and BOPE train BJJ. Spetz Naz trains Sambo
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I suggest you read this. The most important line in the article is this one:
Anytime you go for the opponent’s legs, you have no choice but to expose your head, neck and spine. Even the mildly experienced street punk knows how to counter-attack with devastating results when the opponents makes such a glaring mistake. But since UFC and other competitive formats don't allow striking to the back of the head or spine, BJJ players can get away with i
this "most important line in the article" fails miserably - the first UFCs were almost no rules and see what happened - Royce submitted everyone (and those were no "mildly skilled street punks" but more or less world champs) while being smaller and lighter.. Today MMA's restricted moves like no kicking or kneeing of a downed oponnent, no strikes to the back of the head, no hair grab etc. take MMA much further from real street fighting than biting or eye-gouging which were not allowed in early UFCs. You just cant master those two things and suddenly become superior to everybody
Also the Gracie family tried to legitimize their art during 20th century and went from school to school showing effectivness of BJJ (watch the documentary Gracie Jiu Jitsu in action).
im not saying BJJ is the best martial art (eg trying to defend using BJJ while attacked by multiple opponents is its big weakness, i give this fact the article..), I just think youre wrong with your point that Krav Maga is that deadly, because ... see my earlier posts
but i dont agree the only reason to learn krav maga is being in the army, another legitimate reason is that it can be used as an effective self defense system..
also:
a BJJ black belt will poke your eyes and twist your balls but he will do that while being a black belt in BJJ..
i lol'd.. and good point
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EPT
