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Iraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 348

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Please guys, stay on topic.

This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria.
ZerglingSoup
Profile Joined June 2009
United States346 Posts
December 04 2015 00:55 GMT
#6941
I thought this 5 minute video that popped up on Huffington Post does a good job of summarizing the situation:



To me, it makes sense that this is yet another pissing contest between the US and Russia in which good, regular folks in the Middle East are- once again- the pissees.

As long as nobody wins, everybody saves face. You can tell by how all the different states continue bombing/arming different groups just enough to maintain a constant balance of power in the conflict, so that there is never any winner.
Stream plz
lord_nibbler
Profile Joined March 2004
Germany591 Posts
December 04 2015 04:12 GMT
#6942
The video is factional correct, but it still paints the conflict a little too simplistic.

In Syria at one point or another all groups have traded weapons and oil, formed alliances and fought against each other! And the so-called 'moderate rebells' are mostly a Western illusion. 99% of them fight for a Islamic Syria with Sharia law and all that.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-04 04:41:42
December 04 2015 04:38 GMT
#6943
On December 04 2015 09:55 ZerglingSoup wrote:
I thought this 5 minute video that popped up on Huffington Post does a good job of summarizing the situation:

https://youtu.be/NKb9GVU8bHE

To me, it makes sense that this is yet another pissing contest between the US and Russia in which good, regular folks in the Middle East are- once again- the pissees.

As long as nobody wins, everybody saves face. You can tell by how all the different states continue bombing/arming different groups just enough to maintain a constant balance of power in the conflict, so that there is never any winner.


I disagree with the idea of "good, regular folks in the Middle East- once again- the pissees" in the pissing contest and that this is at all a conflict between Russia and US.

Basically the US analysis of no good parties in Syria is correct. Assad is a human rights monster while ISIL is kidnapping and beheading everyone they can get their hands on. So US not knowing what they want to do is logical. Because what the fuck. You just experience the clusterfuck of Iraq.

Yet the Russian analysis of picking the devil you know is correct as well. Assad is a bloody dictator, but that didn't stop US or Russia from backing those assholes in the past. What are you going to do if Syria all falls to Daesh? So here they are backing up the Assad regime.

Meanwhile, the biggest culprits in pissing on the "good, regular folks in the Middle East" are the Muslims themselves in the standard Sunni Shia sectarian violence except scaled up at a national level. Assad for being oppressive and cruel to the Sunni Majority. Iran for supporting its Shia regime. Hezbollah battling against Sunnis in Syria more than they ever did against Israel. Saudis supporting ISIL. Turkey supporting the Turkmen population. Syrian Kurds declaring autonomy and Turkish Kurds are attempting to support them across the border.

Turkey in all of this is being extremely paranoid of any sniff of Kurdistan as their top national security concern, but apparently are sparring with Russia over Syrian Turkmens, who are all angels that can do no wrong.

Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
MaCRo.gg
Profile Joined June 2015
Korea (South)860 Posts
December 04 2015 05:25 GMT
#6944
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.

From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.

Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants.
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43910 Posts
December 04 2015 06:04 GMT
#6945
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.

From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.

Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants.
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.

Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
MaCRo.gg
Profile Joined June 2015
Korea (South)860 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-04 06:22:47
December 04 2015 06:22 GMT
#6946
On December 04 2015 15:04 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.

From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.

Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants.
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.

Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.


Roman government was in shambles then, Byzantines used nomadic tribes successfully.
Also you discount all the other successful examples.
The polish foreign minister suggested this exact policy, and seeing as his country did the same against the Nazis in WWII.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/16/polish-foreign-minister-suggests-turning-syrian-refugees-into-an-army/
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-04 06:58:19
December 04 2015 06:56 GMT
#6947
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

This sounds like pressing refugees into an army, which is one of the things those refugees are fleeing from. The only difference is you'd be fighting for this strange EU crafted entity instead of Assad. And there's no guarantee that EU would manage that war well at all for the welfare of the pressed soldiers. This kind of activity implies statecraft since it also directly challenges the legitimacy of Assad, and you best come prepared.

On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

This sounds like state sponsored terrorism.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-04 07:14:31
December 04 2015 07:12 GMT
#6948
On December 04 2015 15:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2015 15:04 KwarK wrote:
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.

From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.

Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants.
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.

Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.


Roman government was in shambles then, Byzantines used nomadic tribes successfully.

Arminius who defeated the Romans at Teutoburg when they were at the height of power was also a former Roman soldier.

But seriously this would not be feasible. Because if you employ these guys you are also responsible for what they do. And this will mostly not be compatible with our values etc.

Besides the US already tried this. They build this small force of Syrians where they tried to vet every single one to make sure he has no extremist views and would fight ISIS. They would fly everyone out of Syria for vetting and training. It was extremely costly and in the end they had less than 100 fighters. Once they send these guys into Syria they instantly handed over half of their weapons to extremist rebels because they were too few to stand up to them.

The program is now suspended and considered a huge failure.
Off-season = best season
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4751 Posts
December 04 2015 08:21 GMT
#6949
The main problem here is Syrians dont want to fight for Syria. For most of them Syria is just a line drawn in the sand. Tribal/religious divides are much stronger in this region than national ones. Syrian sunnis have more incomon with Iraq sunnis than with other Syrians.
Pathetic Greta hater.
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5792 Posts
December 04 2015 09:56 GMT
#6950
On December 04 2015 15:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2015 15:04 KwarK wrote:
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.

From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.

Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants.
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.

Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.


Roman government was in shambles then, Byzantines used nomadic tribes successfully.
Also you discount all the other successful examples.
The polish foreign minister suggested this exact policy, and seeing as his country did the same against the Nazis in WWII.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/16/polish-foreign-minister-suggests-turning-syrian-refugees-into-an-army/


It's not just during the WWII. Poland has a history of forming armies in exile since the Partitions of Poland (late 18th century).

At the same time, people forming those legions were very patriotic. I am not sure whether Syrian refugees have any such motivation. And arming/training them could backfire similarly to what happened in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
December 04 2015 12:12 GMT
#6951
Are you guys seriously discussing the feasibility of conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees? With the Byzantine Empire as a comparison point? My mind is blown at the absurdity.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4751 Posts
December 04 2015 12:55 GMT
#6952
The funny part is it isnt even close to most absurd things discussed here
Pathetic Greta hater.
MaCRo.gg
Profile Joined June 2015
Korea (South)860 Posts
December 04 2015 13:49 GMT
#6953
As I've stated, I'm looking at feasibility. Discussion on morality is irrelevant.

On December 04 2015 18:56 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2015 15:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:
On December 04 2015 15:04 KwarK wrote:
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.

From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.

Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants.
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.

Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.


Roman government was in shambles then, Byzantines used nomadic tribes successfully.
Also you discount all the other successful examples.
The polish foreign minister suggested this exact policy, and seeing as his country did the same against the Nazis in WWII.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/16/polish-foreign-minister-suggests-turning-syrian-refugees-into-an-army/


It's not just during the WWII. Poland has a history of forming armies in exile since the Partitions of Poland (late 18th century).

At the same time, people forming those legions were very patriotic. I am not sure whether Syrian refugees have any such motivation. And arming/training them could backfire similarly to what happened in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen.

Thanks for that info, took the chance to educated myself on Partitions of Poland.

Q(What made the Polish resistance successful at forming at compromising occupiers?)

Q(What do Syrian refugees lack that the Polish refugees didn't, other than patriotism that you stated?)

On December 04 2015 16:12 Redox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 04 2015 15:22 MaCRo.gg wrote:
On December 04 2015 15:04 KwarK wrote:
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.

From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.

Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.

Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants.
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.

Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.


Roman government was in shambles then, Byzantines used nomadic tribes successfully.

Arminius who defeated the Romans at Teutoburg when they were at the height of power was also a former Roman soldier.

But seriously this would not be feasible. Because if you employ these guys you are also responsible for what they do. And this will mostly not be compatible with our values etc.

Besides the US already tried this. They build this small force of Syrians where they tried to vet every single one to make sure he has no extremist views and would fight ISIS. They would fly everyone out of Syria for vetting and training. It was extremely costly and in the end they had less than 100 fighters. Once they send these guys into Syria they instantly handed over half of their weapons to extremist rebels because they were too few to stand up to them.

The program is now suspended and considered a huge failure.


It sounds like they were trying to make an independent force. I was proposing the use of foreign conscripts as auxiliary force instead. Sure many of the problems you listed will still hold valid, however the presence of a NATO force to direct them and oversee them most likely will produce better results.

I have no illusions about this strategy, it is flawed and have had detrimental effects. However, there have been relatively modern examples of it being successful. This obviously isn't an ideal situation, but more extreme measures will start being incorporated the worse this conflict gets.

On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.

This sounds like state sponsored terrorism.[/QUOTE]

Japanese thought so, but compared to their crimes against humanity during their occupation and WWII. Majority of East Asia believe it justified, China even has a statue of the assassin that killed the Japanese minster.

On December 04 2015 21:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Are you guys seriously discussing the feasibility of conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees? With the Byzantine Empire as a comparison point? My mind is blown at the absurdity.


Maybe read the entire post before making a condescending comment about it, there were many other examples used.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
December 04 2015 14:55 GMT
#6954
On December 04 2015 21:55 Silvanel wrote:
The funny part is it isnt even close to most absurd things discussed here

And what is that? USA and Turkey arming and funding ISIS?
sorry for dem one liners
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-04 15:00:27
December 04 2015 15:00 GMT
#6955
People have started wars over forced conscription, and disgruntled veterans are the most likely to start a revolt. Really, really not a good idea in a nation with no strong national identity.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
December 07 2015 10:39 GMT
#6956
Looks like USA has now started bombing Assad's troops. Accident my ass.
sorry for dem one liners
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
December 07 2015 11:53 GMT
#6957
Source? Not that I think it's unlikely...
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 12:05:31
December 07 2015 12:03 GMT
#6958
On December 07 2015 20:53 DickMcFanny wrote:
Source? Not that I think it's unlikely...





Can as well have been Syaaf or Russians imo. Probably a mistake from whatever side. Rather insignificant event in any case.
Off-season = best season
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 12:08:34
December 07 2015 12:06 GMT
#6959
Source:

https://www.rt.com/news/324940-syrian-army-coalition-strike/

I'm not sure how much you guys appreciate RT news, but I got the news from Croatian mainstream media (http://www.jutarnji.hr/krivo-su-ciljali--americki-zrakoplovi-bombardirali-kamp-sirijske-vojske-i-navodno-ubili-cetiri-vojnika---ovo-je-cin-agresije--/1473119/ ) which is also heavilly pro-west orientated, so I think it could easily be verified as real.

EDIT: Looks like it wont so easilly verified. If not them then who was it?
sorry for dem one liners
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
December 07 2015 12:15 GMT
#6960
Map with Kurdish gains against ISIS:

http://lecourrierdumaghrebetdelorient.info/syria/syrie-de-la-guerre-civile-a-la-guerre-mondiale/attachment/arab-world-maps-novembre-2015-emmanuel-pene/#prettyPhoto/0/
Off-season = best season
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