I thought this 5 minute video that popped up on Huffington Post does a good job of summarizing the situation:
To me, it makes sense that this is yet another pissing contest between the US and Russia in which good, regular folks in the Middle East are- once again- the pissees.
As long as nobody wins, everybody saves face. You can tell by how all the different states continue bombing/arming different groups just enough to maintain a constant balance of power in the conflict, so that there is never any winner.
The video is factional correct, but it still paints the conflict a little too simplistic.
In Syria at one point or another all groups have traded weapons and oil, formed alliances and fought against each other! And the so-called 'moderate rebells' are mostly a Western illusion. 99% of them fight for a Islamic Syria with Sharia law and all that.
On December 04 2015 09:55 ZerglingSoup wrote: I thought this 5 minute video that popped up on Huffington Post does a good job of summarizing the situation:
To me, it makes sense that this is yet another pissing contest between the US and Russia in which good, regular folks in the Middle East are- once again- the pissees.
As long as nobody wins, everybody saves face. You can tell by how all the different states continue bombing/arming different groups just enough to maintain a constant balance of power in the conflict, so that there is never any winner.
I disagree with the idea of "good, regular folks in the Middle East- once again- the pissees" in the pissing contest and that this is at all a conflict between Russia and US.
Basically the US analysis of no good parties in Syria is correct. Assad is a human rights monster while ISIL is kidnapping and beheading everyone they can get their hands on. So US not knowing what they want to do is logical. Because what the fuck. You just experience the clusterfuck of Iraq.
Yet the Russian analysis of picking the devil you know is correct as well. Assad is a bloody dictator, but that didn't stop US or Russia from backing those assholes in the past. What are you going to do if Syria all falls to Daesh? So here they are backing up the Assad regime.
Meanwhile, the biggest culprits in pissing on the "good, regular folks in the Middle East" are the Muslims themselves in the standard Sunni Shia sectarian violence except scaled up at a national level. Assad for being oppressive and cruel to the Sunni Majority. Iran for supporting its Shia regime. Hezbollah battling against Sunnis in Syria more than they ever did against Israel. Saudis supporting ISIL. Turkey supporting the Turkmen population. Syrian Kurds declaring autonomy and Turkish Kurds are attempting to support them across the border.
Turkey in all of this is being extremely paranoid of any sniff of Kurdistan as their top national security concern, but apparently are sparring with Russia over Syrian Turkmens, who are all angels that can do no wrong.
Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.
From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants. Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.
From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants. Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.
From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants. Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
This sounds like pressing refugees into an army, which is one of the things those refugees are fleeing from. The only difference is you'd be fighting for this strange EU crafted entity instead of Assad. And there's no guarantee that EU would manage that war well at all for the welfare of the pressed soldiers. This kind of activity implies statecraft since it also directly challenges the legitimacy of Assad, and you best come prepared.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.
From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants. Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.
Roman government was in shambles then, Byzantines used nomadic tribes successfully.
Arminius who defeated the Romans at Teutoburg when they were at the height of power was also a former Roman soldier.
But seriously this would not be feasible. Because if you employ these guys you are also responsible for what they do. And this will mostly not be compatible with our values etc.
Besides the US already tried this. They build this small force of Syrians where they tried to vet every single one to make sure he has no extremist views and would fight ISIS. They would fly everyone out of Syria for vetting and training. It was extremely costly and in the end they had less than 100 fighters. Once they send these guys into Syria they instantly handed over half of their weapons to extremist rebels because they were too few to stand up to them.
The program is now suspended and considered a huge failure.
The main problem here is Syrians dont want to fight for Syria. For most of them Syria is just a line drawn in the sand. Tribal/religious divides are much stronger in this region than national ones. Syrian sunnis have more incomon with Iraq sunnis than with other Syrians.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.
From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants. Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.
It's not just during the WWII. Poland has a history of forming armies in exile since the Partitions of Poland (late 18th century).
At the same time, people forming those legions were very patriotic. I am not sure whether Syrian refugees have any such motivation. And arming/training them could backfire similarly to what happened in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen.
Are you guys seriously discussing the feasibility of conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees? With the Byzantine Empire as a comparison point? My mind is blown at the absurdity.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.
From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants. Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.
It's not just during the WWII. Poland has a history of forming armies in exile since the Partitions of Poland (late 18th century).
At the same time, people forming those legions were very patriotic. I am not sure whether Syrian refugees have any such motivation. And arming/training them could backfire similarly to what happened in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen.
Thanks for that info, took the chance to educated myself on Partitions of Poland.
Q(What made the Polish resistance successful at forming at compromising occupiers?)
Q(What do Syrian refugees lack that the Polish refugees didn't, other than patriotism that you stated?)
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Not saying the below is morally correct or even desirable, only looking at feasibility.
From a military historic view, the current difficulties in the ISIL contested regions have real solutions.
Conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees to serve as foreign auxiliary force for NATO, similar to usage of nomad tribes to contend with Hun threat by Byzantine Empire would stem the high cost of domestic fighting force. While also providing the refugees with a way to "earn" their integration to the first world societies, it would deter extremists building impetus in the refugee population.
Similar methods were used by the North in the American Civil War with Irish immigrants. Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
If the Syrian refugees desire sanctuary and help in their integration into the first world societies, they should pay an appropriate price for the assistance they receive. Serving the armed forces that are trying to help stabilize their homeland is the least they could do.
Incidentally King Alaric, who sacked Rome, was an auxiliary in the Roman army in the exact capacity you suggest. Maybe arming randoms and training them to fight our battles for us could end poorly.
Roman government was in shambles then, Byzantines used nomadic tribes successfully.
Arminius who defeated the Romans at Teutoburg when they were at the height of power was also a former Roman soldier.
But seriously this would not be feasible. Because if you employ these guys you are also responsible for what they do. And this will mostly not be compatible with our values etc.
Besides the US already tried this. They build this small force of Syrians where they tried to vet every single one to make sure he has no extremist views and would fight ISIS. They would fly everyone out of Syria for vetting and training. It was extremely costly and in the end they had less than 100 fighters. Once they send these guys into Syria they instantly handed over half of their weapons to extremist rebels because they were too few to stand up to them.
The program is now suspended and considered a huge failure.
It sounds like they were trying to make an independent force. I was proposing the use of foreign conscripts as auxiliary force instead. Sure many of the problems you listed will still hold valid, however the presence of a NATO force to direct them and oversee them most likely will produce better results.
I have no illusions about this strategy, it is flawed and have had detrimental effects. However, there have been relatively modern examples of it being successful. This obviously isn't an ideal situation, but more extreme measures will start being incorporated the worse this conflict gets.
On December 04 2015 14:25 MaCRo.gg wrote: Chinese government also allowed Koreans to hold their provisional government in Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, allowing Koreans to fight for their independence. While never official joining their military ranks, their hit and run tactics severely compromised Japanese ability to march further inland.
This sounds like state sponsored terrorism.[/QUOTE]
Japanese thought so, but compared to their crimes against humanity during their occupation and WWII. Majority of East Asia believe it justified, China even has a statue of the assassin that killed the Japanese minster.
On December 04 2015 21:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Are you guys seriously discussing the feasibility of conscription of Syrian able bodied male refugees? With the Byzantine Empire as a comparison point? My mind is blown at the absurdity.
Maybe read the entire post before making a condescending comment about it, there were many other examples used.
People have started wars over forced conscription, and disgruntled veterans are the most likely to start a revolt. Really, really not a good idea in a nation with no strong national identity.
I'm not sure how much you guys appreciate RT news, but I got the news from Croatian mainstream media (http://www.jutarnji.hr/krivo-su-ciljali--americki-zrakoplovi-bombardirali-kamp-sirijske-vojske-i-navodno-ubili-cetiri-vojnika---ovo-je-cin-agresije--/1473119/ ) which is also heavilly pro-west orientated, so I think it could easily be verified as real.
EDIT: Looks like it wont so easilly verified. If not them then who was it?