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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
Yeah that won't end well.
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The latest casualty of this war: The Economist.
The news coverage of this war is atrociously one sided and it makes me question the differences of integrity between western media and the so called mouth pieces of Russia and China. It is just sad that a venerable publication has fallen down into the pits with other news groups that are screaming for blood.
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A swift, precious strike with good recovery plan will end the bloodshed, just like amputation, lose a leg, or lose your life. However I don't think there is any good recovery plan from what I can see.
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Respect for Sweden. I wish more western european countries do the same.
The problem with the refugees in Bulgaria is getting pretty serious as several thousand syrian people have already come and all our refugee asylums are full and now people are being put in schools and former military barracks. Not to mention that poor country like ours is struggling to find the money to take care of all these people.
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On September 04 2013 16:10 mdb wrote:Respect for Sweden. I wish more western european countries do the same. The problem with the refugees in Bulgaria is getting pretty serious as several thousand syrian people have already come and all our refugee asylums are full and now people are being put in schools and former military barracks. Not to mention that poor country like ours is struggling to find the money to take care of all these people. from the article: "Since 2012, Sweden has taken in some 14,700 asylum seekers from Syria." so, 14700 saved, just 2 million or so to go.
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On September 04 2013 15:52 yandere991 wrote: The latest casualty of this war: The Economist.
The news coverage of this war is atrociously one sided and it makes me question the differences of integrity between western media and the so called mouth pieces of Russia and China. It is just sad that a venerable publication has fallen down into the pits with other news groups that are screaming for blood. Thats okay, per standard Economist route, in another 7 years they'll apologize for it just like the apologized for Iraq. Economist is just a great paper to read if you want to know how the common held views of the 'elites' so its always good for a laugh.
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On September 04 2013 15:52 yandere991 wrote: The latest casualty of this war: The Economist.
The news coverage of this war is atrociously one sided and it makes me question the differences of integrity between western media and the so called mouth pieces of Russia and China. It is just sad that a venerable publication has fallen down into the pits with other news groups that are screaming for blood.
The Economist is very biased and super proud of it. It wears its biases on its cuff. So you shouldn't be surprised. Most of the articles are written by Oxbridge students, and then discussed by the editorial team.
If you want A SINGLE media outlet with the least amount of bias, read the FT. If anything, they are the mouthpiece of the EU commission and no-one on earth knows what that body is really after.
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On September 04 2013 15:58 furymonkey wrote: A swift, precious strike with good recovery plan will end the bloodshed, just like amputation, lose a leg, or lose your life. However I don't think there is any good recovery plan from what I can see.
As far as I see there are only two kinds of workable recovery plans. One includes occupying the whole country and taking a large role in administering it for 20 years. The other is involving all the major stakeholders from inside and outside the country. Then give them enough economic incentive where they might prefer sharing a bigger pie to fighting to have a smaller one all to themselves.
No one wants to commit to the first option, not even the French or American neocons who are most proactive in calling for military action.
And I don't see how the second option could work without involving Iran in some way. Something that the US and its allies seem completely unwilling to do.
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UN suggests American attack on Syria would be illegal
United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon suggested Tuesday that any American intervention in Syria would be illegal under international law absent approval from the UN Security Council.
“The use of force is lawful only when in exercise of self-defense,” Ban said during a news conference at UN headquarters in New York, “or when the Security Council approves such action.”
The world is awaiting the results of a UN investigation into the chemical weapons attack that the US government says killed nearly 1500 people and was perpetrated by Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad against rebel forces on the outskirts of Damascus. Although President Barack Obama has said he believes he has the authority under U.S. law to attack Assad in order to deter future use of chemical weapons, he has opted to seek congressional approval first. Ban’s remarks, however, suggest that the UN secretary-general would view any American use of force against Assad without the approval of the UN Security Council as illegal under international law.
“I’m confident in the case our government has made without waiting for U.N. inspectors,” Obama said Saturday. “I’m comfortable going forward without the approval of a United Nations Security Council that, so far, has been completely paralyzed and unwilling to hold Assad accountable.” Representatives of Russia, a key Syrian ally that sits on the UN security council, have said that they find the evidence that the Assad regime is responsible for the attack “unconvincing” and it is expected that Russia would block any attempt to get UN approval for military intervention in Syria.
While Ban said that “we must put an end to the atrocities the Syrian people continue to suffer,” he also urged the international community to “consider the impact of any punitive measure on efforts to prevent further bloodshed and facilitate a political resolution to the conflict.”
A conclusion to the UN investigation of the attack is not imminent—Ban said that UN investigators would have to return to Syria at least once more, and the soil and bio-medical samples gathered on their previous trip would not arrive for analysis until Wednesday. French and German intelligence have concluded that the U.S. is correct in believing that the chemical weapons attack was perpetrated by the Assad regime, though Germany continues to oppose military intervention absent approval from the Security Council.
There is overwhelming agreement that a chemical weapons attack occurred, but the Assad regime has sought to place blame on the Syrian rebels. “Chemical weapons and agents were used by the armed groups who are supported by the United States, by Turkey, by Saudi Arabia among others,” Syrian Deputy Foreign Minister Faisal Mekdad told the BBC on Monday.
The conclusions of the UN investigation seem unlikely to sway the dynamic on the Security Council, because the investigators’ mandate is only to determine whether or not a chemical weapons attack occurred, not who is responsible. Asked by a reporter whether the UN investigation’s mandate was limited by the UN or by the Syrian government, Ban said that the UN had decided on its own to restrict the investigation to whether or not an attack occurred, and not determine who carried it out. Source
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On September 04 2013 16:39 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 16:10 mdb wrote:Respect for Sweden. I wish more western european countries do the same. The problem with the refugees in Bulgaria is getting pretty serious as several thousand syrian people have already come and all our refugee asylums are full and now people are being put in schools and former military barracks. Not to mention that poor country like ours is struggling to find the money to take care of all these people. from the article: "Since 2012, Sweden has taken in some 14,700 asylum seekers from Syria." so, 14700 saved, just 2 million or so to go.
Its not really like that. We already took in any Syrian refuge, just with the expectation that they would go back once the war is over. This is giving them permanent residency and full benefits, just like we did with Iraq, Somalia, Libanon, Libya. It's a pretty sweet deal.
Problem is almost no one goes back when the war is over and almost no one gets a job. I expect southern Sweden to tank even harder now.
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Can the Syrians actually travel to Sweden? How do they get a visa to enter?
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1584 Posts
On September 04 2013 19:13 Ghanburighan wrote: Can the Syrians actually travel to Sweden? How do they get a visa to enter?
The Syrians who are already in Sweden get permanent asylum and they have the option of bringing their relatives and family here. Syrians who have no connections to Sweden can not enter the country legally, and would have to choose the illegal way that was previously the only option, even if you had family in Sweden.
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I would not put too much trust on the word of the german intelligence. They are a puppet service to the US and provided false information prior to the Iraq war too.
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On September 04 2013 19:24 keit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 19:13 Ghanburighan wrote: Can the Syrians actually travel to Sweden? How do they get a visa to enter? The Syrians who are already in Sweden get permanent asylum and they have the option of bringing their relatives and family here. Syrians who have no connections to Sweden can not enter the country legally, and would have to choose the illegal way that was previously the only option, even if you had family in Sweden.
Thanks, I was afraid of this.
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On September 04 2013 06:58 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 05:50 BioNova wrote:On September 03 2013 22:51 Acrofales wrote: I just read the Guardian's profile on Brown Moses. Pretty fascinating how he pieced all that evidence about the war in Syria together from youtube footage, with no background in weapons at all.
Well, between 3 independent intelligence agencies I am starting to be convinced that Assad actually used chemical weapons. I am still on the fence about whether any kind of intervention would be a good thing. I am convinced that external interference there will do more harm than good in the long run, but I do agree that if we, as the international community, just sit on our hands it sends a terrible signal to other autocratic leaders. Greetings Especially now as the report directly implicating Saudi intelligence chief Prince Bandar bin Sultan supplying sarin to rebel factions in Syria to carry out the deadly attack gathers more attention, the US needs to be more forthcoming in its sharing of its intelligence that points toward the Assad regime as carrying out the attack. And so far, Russia is not pleased with US behavior on that front: “What we were shown before and recently by our American partners, as well as by the British and French, does not convince us at all,” Mr. Lavrov said on Monday. “There are no facts, there is simply talk about ‘what we definitely know.’ But when you ask for more detailed evidence, they say that it is all classified, therefore it cannot be shown to us. This means there are not such facts to encourage international cooperation.” Mr. Lavrov also took a direct jab at Mr. Kerry. “It is very strange to hear, when we recently discussed the issue, my good colleague, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, say that the American side had produced irrefutable evidence for Russia of the Assad regime using chemical weapons, and then claiming that Russians deliberately refused to recognize the fact.” Lavrov has a dire prediction for the consequences of a US attack carried out without the consent of the UN Security Council: “If someone tries to make gross violations of international law a norm, then we will create chaos,” Mr. Lavrov warned. “We will create a situation where the U.N. Charter and the principles under which all the nations of the world have signed up, including the principle of unanimous agreement of the permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, the so-called right of veto, which the United States insisted on — then all of these principles will simply collapse.” - See more at: http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/09/03/rush-to-syrian-war-what-about-us-relations-with-iran-and-russia/#more-37857 SourceI believe the phrase is 'not convinced" Better get some credibility dogs on that AP reporter. Then work on that death toll talking point. It's already sloppy. Source Well, I trust the US intelligence about as far as I can throw it. But it was corroborated by the German and French intelligence services (not all of it, like the numbers ther emptywheel rightfully questions, but the important parts were). I still think everybody use the available diplomatic channels to get an actual international effort, preferrably through a UN resolution, to step in in Syria. If that means waiting for the UN to get their report in, then so be it. However, what I said earlier was that, given the mounting evidence, I am now believing that not only were there CW used, but they were used by Assad's regime and not the rebels. That merits a response. Not the US dropping bombs in the name of democracy, though, a thought-out response from the entire international community (or that part of it that matters in this case, such as Iran, Russia and China, together with the US and Europe).
What has been corroborated just out of curiosity? An attack took place. The only evidence put forward is 'take our word for it" Clear enough? Prove me wrong
The U.S is already parroting a obviously false death toll. The 3600 treated/400 dead is probably the most accurate tally yet I keep seeing 1400 dead 400 children(talking point) and the Intelligence alliance refuses to proof Assad did it because 'it's classified" I'm pretty sure presenting actual evidence was in vogue during the Cuban Missile Crisis and it should still be the foundation of international relations today despite your conclusion. Syrian military communications are not more sensitive than the location of Russian missile launchers in Cuba.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/graphic/2013/sep/03/syria-chemical-weapons-dossiers-compared
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The USA is all so excited to invade Syria only for its very efficient oil pipelines and its import/export harbor. The Obama Administration and its funders dont care about any Dictatorship or Syria's 23 million citizens. To them, it's the billions made from weapon investments and a Western company running those Middle Eastern Oil Pipelines. Just see what they did to Libya.
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I do agree with Obama. The world's credibility IS on the line. 189 UN states signed up to the anti-chemical weapons act and so many are sitting on their hands. I'm not saying rush into action but there should be far more international concern and huge condemnation of this act and the international shaming of Assad and everyone associated with him.
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On September 05 2013 01:27 Klive5ive wrote: I do agree with Obama. The world's credibility IS on the line. 189 UN states signed up to the anti-chemical weapons act and so many are sitting on their hands. I'm not saying rush into action but there should be far more international concern and huge condemnation of this act and the international shaming of Assad and everyone associated with him.
This is pretty much how I feel. If there's no strong response, I feel a lot of people will come to regret it 5-10 years down the line.
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Former Syrian defence minister possibly defected Former Syrian Defence Minister General Ali Habib, a prominent member of President Bashar al-Assad's Alawite sect, has defected and is now in Turkey, a senior member of the opposition Syrian National Coalition told Reuters on Wednesday.
If his defection is confirmed, Habib would be the highest ranking figure from the Alawite minority to break with Assad since the uprising against him began in 2011.
"Ali Habib has managed to escape from the grip of the regime and he is now in Turkey, but this does not mean that he has joined the opposition. I was told this by a Western diplomatic official," Kamal al-Labwani said from Paris.
Syrian state television denied Habib had left Syria and said he was still at his home. Turkey's foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, said he could not at the moment confirm Habib had defected.
An officer in the opposition Free Syrian Army, who did not want to be identified, said the Habib appeared to have coordinated his defection with the United States.
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West struggles with online Jihadist recruitment Although the United States and its European allies support rebels fighting against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, they consider some rebel groups to be dangerous terrorist organizations linked to al Qaeda.
Officials in Western countries say they are worried about the threat from their own nationals going abroad to fight in Syria and one day returning to carry out attacks at home.
"There is a key factor in the Syria war now: the number of French nationals who are fighting there. It is a problem of national security," a senior French diplomat told Reuters.
Radicals heading to Syria are learning about the war online from social media like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and user forums. Security experts say that makes it harder than ever to disrupt the networks that might lure them in. source
Russia's navy in Eastern Mediterranean "Today we consider our presence in the eastern Mediterranean to be sufficient to solve the tasks. If necessary, together with submarine forces, they [the ships] are capable even today of influencing a military situation," a general staff source told the Interfax news agency.
"We are ready to solve sudden task. For that, the naval group is being corrected for the corresponding variants of the outcome of events," the source added, without giving further details.
According to Interfax, the Russian destroyer Smetlivy will soon join the group in the Mediterranean as well as the destroyer Nastoichivy.
The anti-submarine ship Admiral Panteleyev is in the area, while the missile cruiser Moskva, from the Black Sea fleet, is on its way to the eastern Mediterranean. Already in place in the eastern Mediterranean are the frigate Neustrashimy and landing ships Alexander Shabalin, the Admiral Nevelsky and the Peresvet. They will be joined by the large landing ships Novocherkassk and Minsk on September 5-6, Interfax said. source
Obama and Putin remarks on Syria Barack Obama, the US president, has said the international community cannot remain silent in the face of the "barbarism" of the Syrian regime's alleged use of chemical weapons.
Obama told a news conference on Wednesday that "failing to respond to this attack would only increase the risk of more attacks and the possibility that other countries would use these weapons, as well."
The US president was speaking during a visit to Sweden ahead of the forthcoming G20 meeting in St Petersburg, Russia.
"I'm always hopeful ... Ultimately, we can end deaths much more rapidly if Russia takes a different approach to these problems," he said.
His comments came hours after Putin warned the US against taking one-sided action in Syria. He, however, also said in an interview that Russia "doesn't exclude" the possibility of supporting a UN resolution authorising military strikes.
He said that such an endorsement would require "convincing" evidence that President Bashar al-Assad's government used chemical weapons. "From our viewpoint, it seems absolutely absurd that the armed forces, the regular armed forces, which... have encircled the so-called rebels and are finishing them off, that in these conditions they would start using forbidden chemical weapons," Putin said.
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The UN is just attempting to assert at least some modicum of legitimacy as an international body, and we all know how much that's really worth.
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