[M] The Dark Knight Rises (SPOILERS) - Page 46

a big controversy regarding the ending. For some reason, people think that Bruce's status as living/dead is ambiguous, and that the scene with Alfred sitting down and seeing him and Selina was a dream/fantasy. I don't think there's any evidence that suggests it's a dream/fantasy. There's a scene where it's clearly stated that Bruce repaired the Bat's autopilot, and the bat signal is also repaired. If I recall correctly, neither of these scenes involved Alfred so there isn't really an argument to be made regarding Alfred fantasizing. Furthermore, there's no way Alfred could know about Bruce and Selina's relationship so I don't see why he would imagine Bruce with her if he was actually fantasizing. Alfred told Bruce specifically which restaurant he goes to, so it's perfectly reasonable that Bruce simply followed Alfred so he could catch a glimpse of him there and set his former butler's mind at ease. I don't really see any evidence at all that suggests that Alfred seeing Bruce and Selina in the restaurant is a dream/fantasy. I admit that it's a bit far-fetched that we see Bruce in the cockpit of the Bat and somehow manages to escape, and one can argue that it's poor writing, but it's still a pretty standard trope for the hero to somehow survive a seemingly unsurvivable explosion.

Why would that shit with the stock exchange fly? Some guy hijacks the stock exchange and makes a bunch of unauthorised trades with your entire fortune, which all go bad. Then everybody is just like "well, it's a fair cop" and moves on. Wtf?

The entire act with the city under siege was badly conceived. There was no sense of terror or suspense, at no time did I feel anything about what it might be like to live in such a city. Couple of crappy gags with crane in the court house, then we cut back to Wayne doing pushups or whatever. Lame.

How many times did we have to have the exact same "Batman theme" tunes. Felt like it was playing half the damn movie.

The nuclear bomb thing. People are complaining about the whole showing up in Florence thing. Sure, that felt a bit cheap to me, having been shown Batman in the helicopter flying out to sea with the whole sacrifice/redemption thing going on and then later having to accept it was on autopilot the entire time. Whatever. What really bothered me is the nuclear bomb itself. A NUCLEAR BOMB goes off out at sea, and the entire city just goes "yayyyy". Sorry, no. We're told all along that this thing is an immensely powerful fusion bomb (with at least 100 times the combined destructive power of the bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima), and there is no way that the helicopter can possibly take it far enough away from the city for people not to feel a shockwave blasting out the cities windows at the very least. Where was the shellshock, perhaps then leading to the realisation that they had been saved? Fuck.

Then there's Miranda Tate, with the whole big reveal. It's like two entirely separate characters. One cares about sustainability, seems nice, sleeps with Bruce (who isn't a terrible judge of character or anything). Then we get the villain, who is a complete psychopath and has absolutely nothing in common with the original character. There's absolutely no explanation except "hah! she was a bad guy all along!) Even an actress as brilliant as Marion Cotillard couldn't make me buy it, I don't even think she bought it! Even if we accept that she was planning it all along, she didn't actually achieve anything aside from getting the code to the flood mechanism. They had months after taking over the city to flood the device chamber or otherwise destroy it. Stupid.

I've cut most part of your post, because I think that we are in agreement on just about everything, too. Really, the only difference seems to be that I'm more disturbed by tendencies to "overhype" the movie, and you're more disturbed by tendencies to "underhype" it. In the end, it seems to be a controversy about our dislike of the attitudes of fanboys and haters, not about the strengths and weaknesses of Nolan's Batman... at least that's my impression. In any case, thanks for your reply!


On the other hand, we are apparently indeed in disagreement on a couple of points. However, I'll still start with the things that we can agree upon: I didn't want to criticize the movie for its cast, acting, or scores; I already mentioned that I liked Ledger's Joker, and that's only an example of a good actor (and one that doesn't work with half his face covered in every second scene). Especially compared to the casting of other superhero movies, where the actors seem to get selected for their hair style (or lack therof, in case of Jean Luc), all that was well done. Likewise, we seem to agree on certain dramaturgic weaknesses of the movie, although we weigh their importance differently.

as for 1) Well, the more important reason for Bruce Wayne to become a costumed vigilante might be that it's a Batman movie. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to watch a movie about Bruce Wayne's struggle with depression at charity events for cancer research. However, realistically I also don't see how Batman's nightly fistfights are more of a boon to society than cancer research, especially given that the worst of the shit that happens in Gotham City happens because of Batman, not despite Batman.

as for 2) What does it matter that Batman leaves with Rachel, leaving the Joker with his guests at his party? Well, for once, I agree with you that the Joker is a criminal mastermind that has planned his escape. But the Joker is also a criminal psychopath who kills people for no reason, people like the party guests for example. And Batman is actually that guy who tries to capture the Joker... the Joker who is inside his house, threatening his guests when the scene just ends.

The thing with the abduction of a Chinese citizen from the other end of the world is that it feels like something that Bruce Wayne could pull of, rather than Batman. I mean, you couldn't just send any non-billionaire vigilante to do that job, because without the financial assets of Wayne, that stunt would be an entire movie by itself. And given that Batman did what he did, and that Dent and Gordon knew that he did what he did, that limits his "secret" identity to the high society of Gotham (nevermind that his alibi is terrible and that the kidnapped guy was a business partner of Wayne enterprises who got a visit from a representative of that company the day he was abducted...). Sorry, but that subplot doesn't fly with me - especially against the background of it being only of tangential importance for the movie, I think the bottom line, establishing Dent as successful, could have been implemented in a much better way.

as for 3) That may indeed be an overinterpretation on my part. I thought I remembered the Joker's closing words as something like Dent's downfall being his "ace in the sleeve" all along... something along the lines of 'Haha, you think you've beaten me, but I have the last laugh.' Sounded very Joker-esque in my head, but I'm really not sure, and I don't feel the need to investigate, so I'll take your - and zasz's - word for it.

Lastly, I wholeheartedly disagree on the "deep, long argued philosophical ideas". But I don't feel the need to repeat myself, and I have already written about my stance on the depiction of moral lemmata in TDK.

Good points:

-Anne Hatheway as the catwoman was surprisingly good. She added her own little charm to that character.
-The new bat toy called "The Bat" is sexy. Imo, it's the best vehicle out of all the 3 films. It has such an epic feel
every time it shows up on screen (especially when it's first introduced).
-Bane is very brutal, menacing, and the problem with Hardy's size not being big enough for him never really occurred to me
during the film.
-Bale had some great moments as Wayne in the movie.
-Ending is amazing.
-Overall, batman is still amazingly cool whenever he shows up.
-Great performances by the other actors.

Bad points:

-The movie stagnates during the period where Bruce is captured in the bottom of the pit.
-The music was great, but feels overused sometimes.
-Bane's voice may be a turn off for some people. I personally didn't think it affected his image much, but I can understand
if some people find it hilarious.
-Feels cluttered with so many characters introduced.
-Some parts are shot in CGI, and they are very obvious. Imo, they definitely could've done better in this department.
-Some people might not understand everything Batman and Bane say because of their voices. I know I didn't.

Summary: Overall, a must see for anyone. I won't compare this to TDK simply because the Joker is a completely different style of villain compared to Bane. Bane is a very smart, but to the point kind of villain. There's not much theatrics with this guy. He just brute forces his way through his opposition, and is dead set on achieving a goal. Joker on the other hand is more theatrical and dramatic, which is more thrilling to watch for the audience. TDKR is very different from TDK, and is much more similar to BB. In the end, TDKR will give you something to think about as you leave the theatre.

was hoping for a decent batman/bane fight. first round batman got the shit kicked out of him was probably the best part of the whole movie then round 2 bane is about to blow batman's brains out with a shotgun then BAM cat-women rocks ups and wasted him with the bat-bike game over in my eyes bane is still the winner

What are you talking about man? Did you miss the 5 minutes leading up to the events of Bane getting shot with the bike? Batman had clearly overpowered him until he was (quite literally) stabbed in the back. Whilst I agree getting blown away but the bike was an anti-climatic death for him, there's no question Batman had won that fight.

As for Batman winning that fight when he had his ass handed to him before, I think its more due to Batman's improved psych than physical conditioning (the whole fearing death stuff).

As for the comment above about the stock exchange, I do agree to an extent. However hacking the stock exchange and hacking Wayne's personal account were two different things; even if they hadn't cause the commotion at the stock exchange Wayne's account would have been hacked anyway. Hacking the stock exchange was purely to ensure that the money 'Wayne' invested would be lost. I do think they skirted over this issue a bit, but maybe the police thought that they had stolen money as opposed to manipulating the stock exchange? I don't know.