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You know what I find ironic about this whole discussion? It started off with a guy calling critics opinions irrelevant and karpo defending how critics opinions should be taken seriously. Now it's switched into karpo and company calling IMDB ratings/top 250 a joke, how it shouldn't matter, and how it overrates movies. Oh the hypocrisy!
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On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing
No one says the imdb meaningless. Its just that it is not a good yardstick for the quality of a film. It's a good measure how popular a film is but that's about that. And yes there is a big difference between a popular a film which is of a great quality. And a great example of how imdb is silly is that citizen Kane is ranked 40, behind terminator 2. I'm not comparing the dark knight and Kane (because they are in different leagues really). I'm just showing you how inaccurate imdb is when it comes tot the quality and not the popularity of a movie.
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On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing
I haven't seen the avengers so i still don't get why you feel the need to assume stuff about me. It was you who brought up those movies, not me. I was just saying that IMDB top 250 is a popularity contest and i use it solely to gauge if a movie is watchable or not (6+ is usually decent to great, 5 and under usually pretty bad). Again you use argumentum ad populum even though i explained that already.
You said that a critic that doesn't like tdk shouldn't be taken seriously and i've shown you why that is a childish and, frankly, stupid thing to say. I don't really enjoy the Nolan movies and i think they are overrated but i can see what attracts people. None of that nor IMDB changes the fact that a real critic/reviewer writes what they think personally about a movie, they don't just check other ratings and fall in line like video game reviewers so often do.
Just to clear something out. If a critic doesn't like LotR or Star Wars, should we not take him seriously either? What if someone likes Begins but not TDK, should we take that critic somewhat seriously?
On July 18 2012 03:23 ghrur wrote:
You know what I find ironic about this whole discussion? It started off with a guy calling critics opinions irrelevant and karpo defending how critics opinions should be taken seriously. Now it's switched into karpo and company calling IMDB ratings/top 250 a joke, how it shouldn't matter, and how it overrates movies. Oh the hypocrisy!
The guy didn't call the critics opinions irrelevant. The original post by KainiT was that the critic shouldn't be taken seriously. There's a difference between just disregarding a critic you don't agree with and saying they shouldn't be taken seriously as critics if they don't like certain films. IMDB top 250 is a popularity contest where everyone votes, it's nothing like how movie critics work. Don't really see the hypocrisy, dude.
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On July 18 2012 03:23 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing No one says the imdb meaningless. Its just that it is not a good yardstick for the quality of a film. It's a good measure how popular a film is but that's about that. And yes there is a big difference between a popular a film which is of a great quality. And a great example of how imdb is silly is that citizen Kane is ranked 40, behind terminator 2. I'm not comparing the dark knight and Kane (because they are in different leagues really). I'm just showing you how inaccurate imdb is when it comes tot the quality and not the popularity of a movie.
There's no Quality Indicator and no objective rankings of films that's correct. Just because you think it's silly that Citizen Kane is ranked behind Terminator 2 doesn't mean you're objectively right. It's all subjective. It's the same as literature. Just because http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/ ranks Catch-22 above Invisible Man doesn't mean it's right or that I'm right if I think otherwise.
You can not trust IMDB top 250 as a good yardstick for the quality of a film, but that doesn't mean it's not. It's just not for you. You don't speak for everyone.
The end result of this discussion is that you're all being hypocrites. Read what you will and believe what you will. In the end, you'll form your own opinion of the movies and ranks/lists of movies anyway.
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I stick with rotten tomatoes :D
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On July 18 2012 03:30 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing I haven't seen the avengers so i still don't get why you feel the need to assume stuff about me. It was you who brought up those movies, not me. I was just saying that IMDB top 250 is a popularity contest and i use it solely to gauge if a movie is watchable or not (6+ is usually decent to great, 5 and under usually pretty bad). Again you use argumentum ad populum even though i explained that already. You said that a critic that doesn't like tdk shouldn't be taken seriously and i've shown you why that is a childish and, frankly, stupid thing to say. I don't really enjoy the Nolan movies and i think they are overrated but i can see what attracts people. None of that nor IMDB changes the fact that a real critic/reviewer writes what they think personally about a movie, they don't just check other ratings and fall in line like video game reviewers so often do. Just to clear something out. If a critic doesn't like LotR or Star Wars, should we not take him seriously either? What if someone likes Begins but not TDK, should we take that critic somewhat seriously?
No critic should be taken seriously because people are allowed to have different opinions on what they enjoy.
That being said, any movie critic in the world who doesn't rank WALL-E as the number 1 movie of all time should be shot.
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On July 18 2012 03:30 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:23 levelping wrote:On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing No one says the imdb meaningless. Its just that it is not a good yardstick for the quality of a film. It's a good measure how popular a film is but that's about that. And yes there is a big difference between a popular a film which is of a great quality. And a great example of how imdb is silly is that citizen Kane is ranked 40, behind terminator 2. I'm not comparing the dark knight and Kane (because they are in different leagues really). I'm just showing you how inaccurate imdb is when it comes tot the quality and not the popularity of a movie. There's no Quality Indicator and no objective rankings of films that's correct. Just because you think it's silly that Citizen Kane is ranked behind Terminator 2 doesn't mean you're objectively right. It's all subjective. It's the same as literature. Just because http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/ ranks Catch-22 above Invisible Man doesn't mean it's right or that I'm right if I think otherwise. You can not trust IMDB top 250 as a good yardstick for the quality of a film, but that doesn't mean it's not. It's just not for you. You don't speak for everyone. The end result of this discussion is that you're all being hypocrites. Read what you will and believe what you will. In the end, you'll form your own opinion of the movies and ranks/lists of movies anyway.
And that's what i'm saying. IMDB ratings shouldn't affect critics in how they rate movies, if you don't agree just ignore them. IMDB ratings are no measure of quality either so using them as some kind of proof that people SHOULD like a movie is also bullshit.
Maybe it's just me not liking how it was phrased. Ignoring a critic because you have different taste is one thing, saying a critic is not serious because he doesn't like what you like is stupid.
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On July 18 2012 03:36 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:30 ghrur wrote:On July 18 2012 03:23 levelping wrote:On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing No one says the imdb meaningless. Its just that it is not a good yardstick for the quality of a film. It's a good measure how popular a film is but that's about that. And yes there is a big difference between a popular a film which is of a great quality. And a great example of how imdb is silly is that citizen Kane is ranked 40, behind terminator 2. I'm not comparing the dark knight and Kane (because they are in different leagues really). I'm just showing you how inaccurate imdb is when it comes tot the quality and not the popularity of a movie. There's no Quality Indicator and no objective rankings of films that's correct. Just because you think it's silly that Citizen Kane is ranked behind Terminator 2 doesn't mean you're objectively right. It's all subjective. It's the same as literature. Just because http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/ ranks Catch-22 above Invisible Man doesn't mean it's right or that I'm right if I think otherwise. You can not trust IMDB top 250 as a good yardstick for the quality of a film, but that doesn't mean it's not. It's just not for you. You don't speak for everyone. The end result of this discussion is that you're all being hypocrites. Read what you will and believe what you will. In the end, you'll form your own opinion of the movies and ranks/lists of movies anyway. And that's what i'm saying. IMDB ratings shouldn't affect critics in how they rate movies, if you don't agree just ignore them. IMDB ratings are no measure of quality either so using them as some kind of proof that people SHOULD like a movie is also bullshit.
How many low ranked movies on imdb is actually critically aclaimed? Imdb's rankings does a fairly good job at seperating the good from the bad movies. I've rarely seen a low ranked movie on imdb be good other than the "it's so bad it's good" kind of way. Sure you can't look at the top 250 list and say those are the best movies ever made but most of them have good qualities for their genres. That doesn't mean you have to like them. I can recognize that the Godfather movies are great but I don't perticularrly like them.
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On July 18 2012 03:30 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:23 levelping wrote:On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing No one says the imdb meaningless. Its just that it is not a good yardstick for the quality of a film. It's a good measure how popular a film is but that's about that. And yes there is a big difference between a popular a film which is of a great quality. And a great example of how imdb is silly is that citizen Kane is ranked 40, behind terminator 2. I'm not comparing the dark knight and Kane (because they are in different leagues really). I'm just showing you how inaccurate imdb is when it comes tot the quality and not the popularity of a movie. There's no Quality Indicator and no objective rankings of films that's correct. Just because you think it's silly that Citizen Kane is ranked behind Terminator 2 doesn't mean you're objectively right. It's all subjective. It's the same as literature. Just because http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/ ranks Catch-22 above Invisible Man doesn't mean it's right or that I'm right if I think otherwise. You can not trust IMDB top 250 as a good yardstick for the quality of a film, but that doesn't mean it's not. It's just not for you. You don't speak for everyone. The end result of this discussion is that you're all being hypocrites. Read what you will and believe what you will. In the end, you'll form your own opinion of the movies and ranks/lists of movies anyway.
I'm not sure what's your point, or how I am a hypocrite. I'm only arguing against karpo's original view (which to be fair I think he has come to change) that a critic who does not like TDK is irrelevant. Since he appealed to IMDB to show how great TDK is, I am arguing that IMDB is not a good authority for whether a movie is good. It is only a good indicator of whether a movie is popular.
And i'm sorry I am not able to accept your wholesale endorsement of "it's all subjective." By that same argument, we have no way of objectively asserting that TDK is any better than twilight or transformers. Taking the argument to it extremes (and I apologize for unduly doing so, but I think it necessary to show how any appeal to subjectivity is logically inconsistent), if everything really is subjective, then why argue at all? What makes your view that everything is subjective any more correct than my view that there is objective merit in film?
Citizen Kane is regarded as the greatest movie of all time not because of the subjective feelings of critics. It is regarded as the greatest movie because of the techniques used in its making, and is generally seen as a milestone in movie making. Critics base their views of a movie on its objective merits, and simply a subjective feeling or mood.
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On July 18 2012 10:34 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:30 ghrur wrote:On July 18 2012 03:23 levelping wrote:On July 18 2012 03:06 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 22:32 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 21:59 KainiT wrote:On July 17 2012 20:04 karpo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:46 Severedevil wrote:On July 17 2012 19:40 zoLo wrote:On July 17 2012 19:25 KainiT wrote:
a critic that didn't like tdk either can't be taken seriously You're right because we all have to like everything. A critic who didn't like The Dark Knight is irrelevant, because I doubt folks are planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises if they dislike The Dark Knight. Critics are paid to watch movies regardless of what they thought about the earlier films. I'm planning to watch The Dark Knight Rises even though i didn't really like TDK. Just having reviewers/critics acting like yes men loving everything is pointless, movie critics will be as bad as video game critics if that happens. And to the original point. Why shouldn't a critic that didn't like TDK be taken seriously? Not even the classics are universally loved by critics, and this is a superhero summer blockbuster film. I don't get your "not even the classics" argument. Many of those classics are overrated imo but anyways, let's talk about the dark knight. First of all it is number 8 in the imdb top 250 list. To achieve that as a "superhero blockbuster film" is not very easy. If you don't believe me you may wanna take a look at the 1-7 films(ie films like the godfater 1&2, pulp fiction,...). Additionaly, have you actually seen the movie with your eyes and ears open? Did you miss Alfred's story about burning down the wood? Didn't you catch tiny little jokes like "Dent. Jesus. I thought you was dead.- Half." Didn't you see Joker's magic trick? If all those things really didn't appeal to you, well your opinion is completely irrelevant to me cause appearantly our tastes have nothing in common. But I guess you like it when ironman says "I have a plan, attack! "? And about your "yes men loving everything" argument. I certainly don't like too many movies, but I sure liked tdk A LOT and even batman begins was great imo. I've seen TDK three times and i don't really like it. Don't want to get into specifics as it's just not worth discussing. Why does IMDB ratings matter? A critic should be someone with integrity that reviews based on his own judgement, not on what is most popular. You're arguing that popularity equals quality which is a fallacy. You can disagree or just completely ignore a critic that you don't agree with but saying they can't be taken seriously because they don't like what you like is childish. And no, i don't like Ironman. Why even bring this up, it makes you look like a fool trying to discredit me by saying i like "shallow" stuff like Ironman while TDK is such a deep experience. TDK is just a tad less shallow than your average superhero movie, it's just a more grimdark. Since I don't want to look like a fool(I am glad you analyzed it that well) I want to tell you the reason why I brought up the Ironman quote(It's actually from the avengers, said by Ironman). I read quite a few of those (negative)critcs and many claimed that it will only be the second best superhero movie this year afte the avengers so that was were my thinking comes from... If you guys want to argue with films like citizen kane, the godfather etc. Well they are probably more brillant than tdk but this is quite a strange debate and I think it is a big compliment for tdk if you have to bring up films like that;) Btw, twhile obviously it is not really possible to rank films objectively the imdb top 250 list does have a point, because many many thousand people voted. While you can bring your "minority doesn't have to shut up if majority is wrong"-arguments it is quite ignorant to say that this ranking means nothing No one says the imdb meaningless. Its just that it is not a good yardstick for the quality of a film. It's a good measure how popular a film is but that's about that. And yes there is a big difference between a popular a film which is of a great quality. And a great example of how imdb is silly is that citizen Kane is ranked 40, behind terminator 2. I'm not comparing the dark knight and Kane (because they are in different leagues really). I'm just showing you how inaccurate imdb is when it comes tot the quality and not the popularity of a movie. There's no Quality Indicator and no objective rankings of films that's correct. Just because you think it's silly that Citizen Kane is ranked behind Terminator 2 doesn't mean you're objectively right. It's all subjective. It's the same as literature. Just because http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/ ranks Catch-22 above Invisible Man doesn't mean it's right or that I'm right if I think otherwise. You can not trust IMDB top 250 as a good yardstick for the quality of a film, but that doesn't mean it's not. It's just not for you. You don't speak for everyone. The end result of this discussion is that you're all being hypocrites. Read what you will and believe what you will. In the end, you'll form your own opinion of the movies and ranks/lists of movies anyway. I'm not sure what's your point, or how I am a hypocrite. I'm only arguing against karpo's original view (which to be fair I think he has come to change) that a critic who does not like TDK is irrelevant. Since he appealed to IMDB to show how great TDK is, I am arguing that IMDB is not a good authority for whether a movie is good. It is only a good indicator of whether a movie is popular.
I never argued that IMDB shows how great TDK is, that was KainiT.
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Reposting Xiphos's poll because it ended up unfortunately at the bottom of the last page.
Poll: Rec The Dark Knight Rise?Yay! (12) 92% Nay! (1) 8% 13 total votes Your vote: Rec The Dark Knight Rise? (Vote): Yay!
(Vote): Nay!
For you lucky asses who have already been to the theater and have seen this movie 
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Don't know what all the bitching that has been going on here is about, but me and 19 of my mates are seeing the midnight premier tonight. Probably LANing some starcraft 2 before hand as well with a few of them. Can't wait!
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You should have seen the stuff flying around in the inception thread yo :<
Seems Christopher Nolan's more recent movies have all been very polarizing somehow; almost everyone is either part of the pro/hype camp, or part of the con/reactionary camp >.<
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This movie better be good, the last two were absolutely god awful. Looks good from the previews but those are just previews.
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Sorry Bane.
No chance to top the Joker.
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On July 18 2012 14:35 Aerisky wrote:
You should have seen the stuff flying around in the inception thread yo :<
Seems Christopher Nolan's more recent movies have all been very polarizing somehow; almost everyone is either part of the pro/hype camp, or part of the con/reactionary camp >.<
Not really polarizing, just a very loud anti-minority, as is the case with any big or even good movie these days.
Each of his latest films has received wide acclaim and box office succes. You just get people that feel the need to remind people that they have seen black/white movies and talk about how much more exciting of an action movie Citizen Kane is.
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On July 18 2012 17:50 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 14:35 Aerisky wrote:
You should have seen the stuff flying around in the inception thread yo :<
Seems Christopher Nolan's more recent movies have all been very polarizing somehow; almost everyone is either part of the pro/hype camp, or part of the con/reactionary camp >.< Not really polarizing, just a very loud anti-minority, as is the case with any big or even good movie these days. Each of his latest films has received wide acclaim and box office succes. You just get people that feel the need to remind people that they have seen black/white movies and talk about how much more exciting of an action movie Citizen Kane is.
Yeah fair enough, with the ratings it has gotten, you just have to mark it down as a small but vocal anti-group. Though I think it's a bit unfair to generalize their opinions that way. I'm sure they do have their own reasons for disliking the movie, and not necessarily out of spite or love for old "classics".
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On July 18 2012 18:03 Aerisky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 17:50 zalz wrote:On July 18 2012 14:35 Aerisky wrote:
You should have seen the stuff flying around in the inception thread yo :<
Seems Christopher Nolan's more recent movies have all been very polarizing somehow; almost everyone is either part of the pro/hype camp, or part of the con/reactionary camp >.< Not really polarizing, just a very loud anti-minority, as is the case with any big or even good movie these days. Each of his latest films has received wide acclaim and box office succes. You just get people that feel the need to remind people that they have seen black/white movies and talk about how much more exciting of an action movie Citizen Kane is. Yeah fair enough, with the ratings it has gotten, you just have to mark it down as a small but vocal anti-group. Though I think it's a bit unfair to generalize their opinions that way. I'm sure they do have their own reasons for disliking the movie, and not necessarily out of spite or love for old "classics".
Of course, some people have very valid complaints, and some can even articulate them properly, but on average I find the reaction to just be one of anti-popularity.
I won't claim that popularity makes right, there are plenty of things that are popular which aren't exactly high quality entertainment, but when so many people love something, and so many critics give it almost unanimous praise, people on the other end are going to have to do better than:
"It's an average movie"
or for those who have seen the inside of a film class
"He breaks the 180 rule"
You can say that Nolan's films are average, and I would be on the complete opposite end of that debate, but at least provide a few arguments for that position.
Nolan's films receive tons of praise, so well thought out criticism would be a welcome change of pace, but we rarely get that. When you say his movies are average, it goes against not just what the majority thinks, but even what the critics think, so what is it? Do those people have some deeper insight? Did they see something we are missing?
Right now you just have the majority of people, which love his films, and the occasional voice that disagrees. The level of debate is so low because people just exchange "it's great" and "it's horrible". Nobody really explains their arguments, it is just a repeated chanting of one's position.
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I think I provided some pretty good arguments in my posts, but hey, I'm just a hater I guess.
The bandwagon on Nolan is just due to the fact that he's pretty good at making his viewers think they are smart with cheap plot tricks and idiotic pseudo-philosophical background.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On July 18 2012 14:52 s1ege wrote:
This movie better be good, the last two were absolutely god awful. Looks good from the previews but those are just previews.
If you didn't the previous ones then I highly doubt that Nolan will have made such a change that you suddenly like this one.
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EPT
