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Thread is about the various issues surrounding Japan in the aftermath of the recent earthquake. Don't bring the shit side of the internet to the thread, and post with the realization that this thread is very important, and very real, to your fellow members.
Do not post speculative and unconfirmed news you saw on TV or anywhere else. Generally the more dramatic it sounds the less likely it's true. |
On March 14 2011 13:28 lexingtonsteel wrote:
Where is all this sea water going to anyway? I mean I would imaging its all radioactive water right? I can't imagine putting that water back into the sea, or letting it off as steam.
Now since the explosion has fucked up the outer housing majorly, what happens now? does that mean that the steam being let off freely into the atmosphere? and since all the equipment in the reactor is all damaged by explosion, how do they control all the cooling systems.
My last question is, how do they control the core permanently? or do they just have to keep cooling it down indefinitely until it depletes?
Again other people can do this better but as I understand it:
Usually they would cool with "pure" water, this doesn't become radioactive. Probably because of the tsunami, volumes of pure water weren't available so they use a seawater with boron (? I'm not sure this is the right word but anyway) in it. The particles in the seawater (salt etc) do mean there's a low level of radioactivity, but the boron helps counter it too. The seawater is stored/treated/disposed of safely after use. (The steam generated is radioactive but low level, small amounts, and dissipates very quickly ie. it's not an issue for human health.)
No, the cooling systems etc are still working normally (meaning, as well as it all was before the hydrogen explosion), the explosion just damaged the walls and frame of the building it was all in (it seems).
The reactor is "off", and the reaction process is slowing. (It can take a long time though.) During that time the heat has to be disposed of. Eventually the reactions will stop completely and then they will study the whole structure and figure out what happened when and where and how and why (this takes a long long time), and can dismantle and dispose of the whole thing.
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I am not saying there is a potential disaster. If there is such a risk, I am in no position to say. I am saying that the meltdown itself is already a major accident.
There's a difference between radioactive material contaminating the outside or radiation leaking. We have some minor contamination right now. And right now the Japanese are very clear that they can't exclude the containment won't be damaged. There is still a risk of more radioactive material leaking.
There is still the possibility of human failure. There is still the possibility of additional problems.
Just because the reactor won't go off like a nuclear bomb doesn't mean it isn't a major accident. Compared to the earthquake and tsunami itself we can't really call it a disaster.
Right now on the IAEA rates this event 4 on the scale of 7. 'Accident with Local Consequences' is one step above 'Serious Incident'. How likely it is that this event will become a level 5 'Accident with Wider Consequences', I don't know. But it seems the guy that wrote that blog either isn't worried about an INES level 5 event, or he somehow can know it won't happen. He doesn't know that, despite his arguments that this is no Chernobyl, which it obviously isn't.
[edit]
Yes, right now it seems they can cool with seawater and they can safely store that seawater. But what when a major aftershock occurs and further damages the containment of one of the reactors and destroys the method they use for storing the seawater? Fact is this can potentially happen. If so the situation will probably be scaled to INES 5.
Right now significant amounts of uranium or plutonium being released in any way seems highly unlikely. But events can change. It is not theoretically impossible.
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On March 14 2011 13:37 sqrt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 13:35 AntiLegend wrote:On March 14 2011 13:28 lexingtonsteel wrote:
Where is all this sea water going to anyway? I mean I would imaging its all radioactive water right? I can't imagine putting that water back into the sea, or letting it off as steam.
this is a very good question. Most of it will retract with time, however due to shifts in the Japanese coast some would remain, most probably some cities would have to be rebuild on higher ground.
maybe my quote was a little bit too short, but the question is, what happens to the sea water which is being pumped into the reactor containments. at some point it will also get too hot and have to be replaced by new sea water, but by this time it should be highly radioactive.
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seriously? what the fuck.
ok I found this on the net and I just realized that the names and pictures weren't blurred, but it is still uncalled for.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 14 2011 13:39 chocopan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 13:28 lexingtonsteel wrote:
Where is all this sea water going to anyway? I mean I would imaging its all radioactive water right? I can't imagine putting that water back into the sea, or letting it off as steam.
Now since the explosion has fucked up the outer housing majorly, what happens now? does that mean that the steam being let off freely into the atmosphere? and since all the equipment in the reactor is all damaged by explosion, how do they control all the cooling systems.
My last question is, how do they control the core permanently? or do they just have to keep cooling it down indefinitely until it depletes? Again other people can do this better but as I understand it: Usually they would cool with "pure" water, this doesn't become radioactive. Probably because of the tsunami, volumes of pure water weren't available so they use a seawater with boron (? I'm not sure this is the right word but anyway) in it. The particles in the seawater (salt etc) do mean there's a low level of radioactivity, but the boron helps counter it too. The seawater is stored/treated/disposed of safely after use. (The steam generated is radioactive but low level, small amounts, and dissipates very quickly ie. it's not an issue for human health.) No, the cooling systems etc are still working normally (meaning, as well as it all was before the hydrogen explosion), the explosion just damaged the walls and frame of the building it was all in (it seems). The reactor is "off", and the reaction process is slowing. (It can take a long time though.) During that time the heat has to be disposed of. Eventually the reactions will stop completely and then they will study the whole structure and figure out what happened when and where and how and why (this takes a long long time), and can dismantle and dispose of the whole thing.
I am actually really amazed that water that has had direct contact with the core and the rods it self only has small amounts of radiation that has little effect on humans. If that was the case, why don't they just put it back into the sea?
BTW Chocopan, you know how you can see the smoke and the fire from the explosion, do you know what that is? cuz it dosn't look like steam. I also wonder why they would allow the pressure to build up so much that it would actually erupt.
it seems like an explosion is so much more riskier because It can potential fuck up all the equipment in maintaining the cooling process, and would have been worth it just to let the steam off.
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On March 14 2011 13:45 SilverSkyLark wrote:
I didn't read the warning at the top of the page.
We get it already. Stop derailing the thread.
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EDIT: edit out my pointing toward SilverSkyLark's post since the MOD has take lightning action.
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Don't think it's been posted yet, but 11 confirmed dead from the power plant explosions and over 10,000 missing in Minamisanriku.
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Just hydrogen explosion, nothing serious (comparing to what people expect from a "meltdown")
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On March 14 2011 13:28 lexingtonsteel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 13:11 chocopan wrote:On March 14 2011 13:05 lexingtonsteel wrote:
Hi I have a question for subject matter experts:
With nuclear reactors, what actually causes the massive explosions? From what I saw in the footages, there was black smoke, and fire, so I am guessing it is not just steam.
My second question is, how the fuck can someone be saying that the containment is still intact? I honestly cannot see how if the core has produced such an explosion, and still be perfectly intact? I mean at least a massive hole at the top of the casing. Am I right? If i am wrong please let me know because i feel like the Japanese are lying. There are articles which explain it better but in brief: The explosion is a hydrogen explosion. Oxygen and hydrogen disassociate as a byproduct of the cooldown process going on. This kind of explosion is an undesired but predictable result. The core itself is still well contained. The explosion in Daiichi and Daisan are in the outer building which houses the reactor core and systems themselves and protects them from weather and so on. So an explosion on the "outside", provided the core is still contained (it is in 1 and seems to be in 3 (they can judge this by monitoring the pressure levels)), isn't such a big thing. Thanks dude, thats a great explanation, I am thinking that a byproduct of the cooldown process is the actual water thats being circulated out of the core am I right? Where is all this sea water going to anyway? I mean I would imaging its all radioactive water right? I can't imagine putting that water back into the sea, or letting it off as steam. Now since the explosion has fucked up the outer housing majorly, what happens now? does that mean that the steam being let off freely into the atmosphere? and since all the equipment in the reactor is all damaged by explosion, how do they control all the cooling systems. My last question is, how do they control the core permanently? or do they just have to keep cooling it down indefinitely until it depletes?
The core does not have to be cooled premanently. It's temperature decreases every hour exponentially once the chain reaction is shut down, which it does by itself, because the core gets warm so water is missing which means the rest of the water is boiling and vaporizing and since the chain reaction is needing water to work it shuts down itself if there's no water. If they're able to cool the thing for a few days without it melting it's way out of the concrete and steel there won't happen a thing. And no the chain reaction won't start again because of the flooding (don't know if it could oO) because they borated the water, which prevents the chain reaction.
About the steam in the outer part. That steam isn't as dangerous as the inner part stuff, not even close. So the steam that's beeing released is above the norms considering radiation but those nasty things in there only got like 2 weeks of half-life so it's not going to have an impact if it sticks to just those stuff and the inner core stays intact.
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On March 14 2011 13:42 AntiLegend wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 13:37 sqrt wrote:On March 14 2011 13:35 AntiLegend wrote:On March 14 2011 13:28 lexingtonsteel wrote:
Where is all this sea water going to anyway? I mean I would imaging its all radioactive water right? I can't imagine putting that water back into the sea, or letting it off as steam.
this is a very good question. Most of it will retract with time, however due to shifts in the Japanese coast some would remain, most probably some cities would have to be rebuild on higher ground. maybe my quote was a little bit too short, but the question is, what happens to the sea water which is being pumped into the reactor containments. at some point it will also get too hot and have to be replaced by new sea water, but by this time it should be highly radioactive.
Read the article that's been linked 100 times.
The fission process has been stopped since the early stages of the earthquake, so they were just dealing with residual heat. The vast amount of seawater they poured in should be enough to cool the reactor core.
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If u are interested, another information.( English)
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13269582
I haven't watch this yet but their yesterday streaming (Japanese)was very interesting .
And I couldn't read all thread, so if it was posted already, I'm sorry.
To be honest, I can't trust my country's Nuclear Safety Agency or Tepco, or Tokay.
They had lied before. So though I can understand in my head your ( TLmembers) post says Chernobyl is impossible , I am still scared.
Edit: wrong link above was yesterday
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13295291
here is English , sorry
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You can't stop the fission. It will remain radioactive and fission will keep going on.
The issue is a chain reaction where the fission of one atom causes the fission of more other atoms. The fuel rods are gone. But when the whole core melts the control rods will also be less effective.
This is also why the article by that person is wrong. He claims that when you insert control rods uranium suddenly stops being radioactive and stops decaying. It doesn't. Control rods just absorb the neutrons which can cause other uranium atoms to decay 'before their time'.
Either the person that wrote that article is trying to be a nuclear energy apologist, or he is not the expect he wants to make him out to be.
I don't dare to say what would happen to this reactor if the core completely melts and there is no cooling at all. This means there will be fissile material that will flow down to the bottom of the containment and just sit there without control rods absorbing the neutrons.
Right now it seems that in all these reactors the rate of decay is slowing down and the temperature is lowering. But if cooling stops and the core melts completely, this is again a serious problem. But something needs to go seriously wrong before that can happen.
Then again, if cooling with sea water is no longer possible, there is no plan B.
This reactor at Fukushima is 40 years old and was designed before Three Mile Island and Chernobyl happened. It's not 100% safe.
It's a very bad sign when an English teacher in Japan is the no.1 source on the web for assuring and informing us on this subject. Are English teachers in Japan really different from those in S Korea?
I suspect very much this person somehow felt the desire to google/wiki about nuclear reactors and then write up that article. Every actual nuclear reactor so far I have heard on the subject didn't dare to predict the future. Yet this person does.
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On March 14 2011 13:47 lexingtonsteel wrote:
BTW Chocopan, you know how you can see the smoke and the fire from the explosion, do you know what that is? cuz it dosn't look like steam. I also wonder why they would allow the pressure to build up so much that it would actually erupt.
As someone said above, the explosion was hydrogen igniting. It wasn't high-pressure steam blowing the containment apart, or a "nuclear detonation" or anything like that. Just hydrogen. So people shouldn't be mislead by the video of all the smoke and stuff.
Re pressure - they are trying to keep temperatures down, pressures rise and so from time to time they allow some steam to vent to keep things managable. As mentioned above yes it is radioactive but not dangerously so.
The explosion wasn't caused by high pressures. It was caused by the build-up of hydrogen. Again, it's not what you want obviously, but it's a predicted effect of what they are doing at the moment.
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On March 14 2011 14:04 elscuba wrote:
To be honest, I can't trust my country's Nuclear Safety Agency or Tepco, or Tokay.
They had lied before. So though I can understand in my head your ( TLmembers) post says Chernobyl is impossible , I am still scared.
Sadly this is true, TEPCO have a bad record with falsifying safety reports and so on in a scandal a while ago.
However, they were very embarrased when that happened and I'm presuming they cleaned things up since then. I'm also sure the government is watching what they are doing very closely.
Even accepting TEPCO's so-so record, talking about Chernobyl is a bad idea. They just aren't related.
In other topic, rolling blackouts are starting in the east, 3 hour periods. I went to the supermarket just now, and half the lights were turned off, to save power (voluntary thing). I can't explain how weird it felt.
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On March 14 2011 14:07 Alshahin wrote:
You can't stop the fission. It will remain radioactive and fission will keep going on.
The issue is a chain reaction where the fission of one atom causes the fission of more other atoms. The fuel rods are gone. But when the whole core melts the control rods will also be less effective.
This is also why the article by that person is wrong. He claims that when you insert control rods uranium suddenly stops being radioactive and stops decaying. It doesn't. Control rods just absorb the neutrons which can cause other uranium atoms to decay 'before their time'.
Either the person that wrote that article is trying to be a nuclear energy apologist, or he is not the expect he wants to make him out to be.
I don't dare to say what would happen to this reactor if the core completely melts and there is no cooling at all. This means there will be fissile material that will flow down to the bottom of the containment and just sit there without control rods absorbing the neutrons.
Even if what your claimed is true, I don't believe engineers who designed the containment pit didn't thought about the potential problems. Since the containment is basically last line of defense, no doubt they will count in the possibility that the rupture of the reactor itself could be caused by active fuel rods, so maybe there is additional moderator shit down at the pit?
I have no way to tell since I am not expert in this subject, but so far your point ain't convincing enough for me.
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On March 14 2011 14:13 chocopan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2011 14:04 elscuba wrote:
To be honest, I can't trust my country's Nuclear Safety Agency or Tepco, or Tokay.
They had lied before. So though I can understand in my head your ( TLmembers) post says Chernobyl is impossible , I am still scared.
Sadly this is true, TEPCO have a bad record with falsifying safety reports and so on in a scandal a while ago. However, they were very embarrased when that happened and I'm presuming they cleaned things up since then. I'm also sure the government is watching what they are doing very closely. Even accepting TEPCO's so-so record, talking about Chernobyl is a bad idea. They just aren't related. In other topic, rolling blackouts are starting in the east, 3 hour periods. I went to the supermarket just now, and half the lights were turned off, to save power (voluntary thing). I can't explain how weird it felt.
They were contradicting NISE earlier yesterday, so yeah, they're still lying.
On the other hand I highly doubt that an MIT professor is going to put his academic reputation on the line for the sake of corporate lobbies.
It should also be noted that coal ash is more radioactive than nuclear waste. With that in mind, it's equally likely that the coal power industries are also silently lobbying against nuclear.
Either way, the fear mongering needs to stop. It's not helping anyone that's on the ground.
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On March 14 2011 14:24 furymonkey wrote:
Even if what your claimed is true, I don't believe engineers who designed the containment pit didn't thought about the potential problems. Since the containment is basically last line of defense, no doubt they will count in the possibility that the rupture of the reactor itself could be caused by active fuel rods, so maybe there is additional moderator shit down at the pit?
I have no way to tell since I am not expert in this subject, but so far your point ain't convincing enough for me.
A containment tries to contain, not moderate the reaction. If the whole core and all the fuel rods completely melt and if there is no cooling, it will be pure speculation for anyone to say if the containment will hold. Or even how long it will hold. There is no engineering solution. You either build a nuclear reactor and moderate the reaction, or you don't build one at all. With these designs you always have the potential of a chain reaction.
If the reactor does go out of control, it won't explode as the uranium won't be enriched enough, but it will create more incredible heat. In that case, it might melt through the containment. Especially if the containment is damaged by the quake or an aftershock.
There is a reason these types of reactors are no longer build. It's not fool proof and the engineering solution was to stop building them.
The fuel rods are removed and I assume safe. Though I was a bit puzzled as to why they could have melted partially, which one report said.
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Some twitter posts my friend's Japanese friend translated on facebook:
+ Show Spoiler +* いつでも買える http://twitter.com/7474529/status/46565903520907264今日、募金箱に金髪にピアスの若い兄ちゃんが万札数枚入れていた。そしてその友人に｢ゲームなんていつでも買えるからな｣と言っていたのが聞こえて私含め周りの人達も募金していた。人は見た目じゃないことを実感した。そんなお昼でした。 この話感動しました。 Goth youth A goth youth with white hair and body piercings walked into my store and shoved several hundred dollars (several tens of thousands of yen) into the disaster relief fund donation box. As he walked out, I and people around me heard him saying to his buddies, “I mean, we can buy those games anytime!” At that, we all opened our wallets and put our money into the donation box. Really, you cannot judge people by their appearances. * 日本ってすごい http://twitter.com/tksksks/statuses/46403815397801984 日本って凄い。官僚も民間も、皆で助けようとしてる。トラックの運転手も有志で物資運んでるらしいし、東北の交通整備をヤクザさんがやってるという話も聞いた。最近、日本に対して誇りを持てないことが続いていたけれど、そんなことない。日本は凄い国だ。素直に感動してる。日本国の皆さん頑張ろう！ Japan is a wonderful nation! Both the government and the people, everyone is helping one another today. There are truck drivers helping evacuees move. I even heard that the “yakuza” (gangsters, organized crime groups) are helping to direct traffic in the Tohoku region! There have been many recent developments that have made me lose my sense of pride in my country, but not anymore. Japan is an amazing place! I’m just simply touched. Go Japan! * パン屋 http://twitter.com/ayakishimoto/statuses/46403599743451136 昨日の夜中、大学から徒歩で帰宅する道すがら、とっくに閉店したパン屋のおばちゃんが無料でパン配給していた。こんな喧噪のなかでも自分にできること見つけて実践している人に感動。心温まった。東京も捨てたもんじゃないな。 The bakery lady There was a small bread shop on the street I take to go to school. It has long been out of business. But last night, I saw the old lady of the shop giving people her handmade bread for free. It was a heart-warming sight. She, like everyone else, was doing what she could to help people in a time of need. Tokyo isn’t that bad afterall!
Taken from here
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EPT
