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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. |
United States41973 Posts
On March 23 2011 15:10 ImFromPortugal wrote:Who's in charge? Germans pull forces out of NATO as Libyan coalition falls apart
# Tensions with Britain as Gates rebukes UK government over suggestion Gaddafi could be assassinated # French propose a new political 'committee' to oversee operations # Germany pulls equipment out of NATO coalition over disagreement over campaign's direction # Italians accuse French of backing NATO in exchange for oil contracts # No-fly zone called into question after first wave of strikes 'neutralises' Libyan military machine # U.K. ministers say war could last '30 years' # Italy to 'take back control' of bases used by allies unless NATO leadership put in charge of the mission # Russians tell U.S. to stop bombing in order to protect civilians - calls bombing a 'crusade'Deep divisions between allied forces currently bombing Libya worsened today as the German military announced it was pulling forces out of NATO over continued disagreement on who will lead the campaign.
A German military spokesman said it was recalling two frigates and AWACS surveillance plane crews from the Mediterranean, after fears they would be drawn into the conflict if NATO takes over control from the U.S.
The infighting comes as a heated meeting of NATO ambassadors yesterday failed to resolve whether the 28-nation alliance should run the operation to enforce a U.N.-mandated no-fly zone, diplomats said.
Yesterday a war of words erupted between the U.S. and Britain after the U.K. government claimed Muammar Gaddafi is a legitimate target for assassination.
U.K. government officials said killing the Libyan leader would be legal if it prevented civilian deaths as laid out in a U.N. resolution.
But U.S. defence secretary Robert Gates hit back at the suggestion, saying it would be 'unwise' to target the Libyan leader adding cryptically that the bombing campaign should stick to the 'U.N. mandate'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368693/Libya-war-Germans-pull-forces-NATO-Libyan-coalition-falls-apart.html#ixzz1HOsyhRID
Germany aren't a part of the Libyan coalition. It's a non story. They're moving some ships out of the Mediterranean.
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On March 23 2011 18:55 Pika Chu wrote: These money could've been spent so much better taking note that maybe hundreds of millions of humans are starving or do not have access to potable water or any medical assistance.
My problem with these kinds of arguments is that these kinds of costs are already incurred by having a standing army in the US. Sure it may cost $100 million to have them in Libya but it probably costs like $90 million anyway. It isn't an examination of the costs to be in Libya, its an examination of the difference between being in the US or Libya.
You could make an argument that the US could probably cut its defence budget and I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, but not going into Libya to save money is plain wrong.
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Nah, the cost comes from the bombs. A tomahawk is a couple mil and fighter deployed weapons are generally 500k+.
It adds up pretty quick.
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On March 23 2011 19:42 vetinari wrote: Nah, the cost comes from the bombs. A tomahawk is a couple mil and fighter deployed weapons are generally 500k+.
It adds up pretty quick.
Hm, I wonder why the US never use older lower tech ordnance to save cost though? I don't think the enemies in Libya they're engaging require the latest tech anyway. I think it probably has something to do with precision strikes and not wanting to cause collateral damage? Or does the US army simply not have an underlying system architecture (if they're dependent on this) to use older weapons anymore because they've replaced them all with newer tech?
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On March 23 2011 20:17 Bartuc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 19:42 vetinari wrote: Nah, the cost comes from the bombs. A tomahawk is a couple mil and fighter deployed weapons are generally 500k+.
It adds up pretty quick. Hm, I wonder why the US never use older lower tech ordnance to save cost though? I don't think the enemies in Libya they're engaging require the latest tech anyway. I think it probably has something to do with precision strikes and not wanting to cause collateral damage? Or does the US army simply not have an underlying system architecture (if they're dependent on this) to use older weapons anymore because they've replaced them all with newer tech?
How are they going to hit air defenses if not with cruise missiles ? The f-15 used are already as old as it can get to remain effective. Against Iran for example, the currently used jets would not work. So i think they're already containing costs.
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On March 23 2011 19:11 TheLink wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 18:55 Pika Chu wrote: These money could've been spent so much better taking note that maybe hundreds of millions of humans are starving or do not have access to potable water or any medical assistance. My problem with these kinds of arguments is that these kinds of costs are already incurred by having a standing army in the US. Sure it may cost $100 million to have them in Libya but it probably costs like $90 million anyway. It isn't an examination of the costs to be in Libya, its an examination of the difference between being in the US or Libya. You could make an argument that the US could probably cut its defence budget and I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, but not going into Libya to save money is plain wrong.
No it's cost of war, bombs+fuel and everything needed. Yes i guess we can say bombs are already made, but because these are destroyed others will be produced much faster, it's a money dynamic.
It wasn't an argument whatsoever, i already expressed my point of view and gave enough arguments for why this war is a bad thing (both for us and libyans), i was merely expressing my awe when seeing those sums.
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Pika, you seem to place no value on the lives we saved just by stopping Ghaddaffi from entering Bhengazi.
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Good piece by Robert Fisk: First it was Saddam. Then Gaddafi. Now there's a vacancy for the West's favourite crackpot tyrantSo we are going to take "all necessary measures" to protect the civilians of Libya, are we? Pity we didn't think of that 42 years ago. Or 41 years ago. Or... well, you know the rest. And let's not be fooled by what the UN resolution really means. Yet again, it's going to be regime-change. And just as in Iraq – to use one of Tom Friedman's only memorable phrases of the time – when the latest dictator goes, who knows what kind of bats will come flying out of the box? And after Tunisia, after Egypt, it's got to be Libya, hasn't it? The Arabs of North Africa are demanding freedom, democracy, liberation from oppression. Yes, that's what they have in common. But what these nations also have in common is that it was us, the West, that nurtured their dictatorships decade after decade after decade. The French cuddled up to Ben Ali, the Americans stroked Mubarak, while the Italians groomed Gaddafi until our own glorious leader went to resurrect him from the political dead. + Show Spoiler +Could this be, I wonder, why we have not heard from Lord Blair of Isfahan recently? Surely he should be up there, clapping his hands with glee at another humanitarian intervention. Perhaps he is just resting between parts. Or maybe, like the dragons in Spenser's Faerie Queen, he is quietly vomiting forth Catholic tracts with all the enthusiasm of a Gaddafi in full flow. So let's twitch the curtain just a bit and look at the darkness behind it. Yes, Gaddafi is completely bonkers, flaky, a crackpot on the level of Ahmadinejad of Iran and Lieberman of Israel – who once, by the way, drivelled on about how Mubarak could "go to hell" yet quaked with fear when Mubarak was indeed hurtled in that direction. And there is a racist element in all this.
The Middle East seems to produce these ravers – as opposed to Europe, which in the past 100 years has only produced Berlusconi, Mussolini, Stalin and the little chap who used to be a corporal in the 16th List Bavarian reserve infantry, but who went really crackers when he got elected in 1933 – but now we are cleaning up the Middle East again and can forget our own colonial past in this sandpit. And why not, when Gaddafi tells the people of Benghazi that "we will come, 'zenga, zenga' (alley by alley), house by house, room by room." Surely this is a humanitarian intervention that really, really, really is a good idea. After all, there will be no "boots on the ground".
Of course, if this revolution was being violently suppressed in, say, Mauritania, I don't think we would be demanding no-fly zones. Nor in Ivory Coast, come to think of it. Nor anywhere else in Africa that didn't have oil, gas or mineral deposits or wasn't of importance in our protection of Israel, the latter being the real reason we care so much about Egypt.
So here are a few things that could go wrong, a sidelong glance at those bats still nestling in the glistening, dank interior of their box. Suppose Gaddafi clings on in Tripoli and the British and French and Americans shoot down all his aircraft, blow up all his airfields, assault his armour and missile batteries and he simply doesn't fade away. I noticed on Thursday how, just before the UN vote, the Pentagon started briefing journalists on the dangers of the whole affair; that it could take "days" just to set up a no-fly zone.
Then there is the trickery and knavery of Gaddafi himself. We saw it yesterday when his Foreign Minister announced a ceasefire and an end to "military operations" knowing full well, of course, that a Nato force committed to regime-change would not accept it, thus allowing Gaddafi to present himself as a peace-loving Arab leader who is the victim of Western aggression: Omar Mukhtar Lives Again.
And what if we are simply not in time, if Gaddafi's tanks keep on rolling? Do we then send in our mercenaries to help the "rebels". Do we set up temporary shop in Benghazi, with advisers and NGOs and the usual diplomatic flummery? Note how, at this most critical moment, we are no longer talking about the tribes of Libya, those hardy warrior people whom we invoked with such enthusiasm a couple of weeks ago. We talk now about the need to protect "the Libyan people", no longer registering the Senoussi, the most powerful group of tribal families in Benghazi, whose men have been doing much of the fighting. King Idris, overthrown by Gaddafi in 1969, was a Senoussi. The red, black and green "rebel" flag – the old flag of pre-revolutionary Libya – is in fact the Idris flag, a Senoussi flag. Now let's suppose they get to Tripoli (the point of the whole exercise, is it not?), are they going to be welcomed there? Yes, there were protests in the capital. But many of those brave demonstrators themselves originally came from Benghazi. What will Gaddafi's supporters do? "Melt away"? Suddenly find that they hated Gaddafi after all and join the revolution? Or continue the civil war?
And what if the "rebels" enter Tripoli and decide Gaddafi and his crazed son Saif al-Islam should meet their just rewards, along with their henchmen? Are we going to close our eyes to revenge killings, public hangings, the kind of treatment Gaddafi's criminals have meted out for many a long year? I wonder. Libya is not Egypt. Again, Gaddafi is a fruitcake and, given his weird performance with his Green Book on the balcony of his bombed-out house, he probably does occasionally chew carpets as well.
Then there's the danger of things "going wrong" on our side, the bombs that hit civilians, the Nato aircraft which might be shot down or crash in Gaddafi territory, the sudden suspicion among the "rebels"/"Libyan people"/democracy protesters that the West, after all, has ulterior purposes in its aid. And there's one boring, universal rule about all this: the second you employ your weapons against another government, however righteously, the thing begins to unspool. After all, the same "rebels" who were expressing their fury at French indifference on Thursday morning were waving French flags in Benghazi on Thursday night. Long live America. Until...
I know the old arguments, of course. However bad our behaviour in the past, what should we do now? It's a bit late to be asking that. We loved Gaddafi when he took over in 1969 and then, after he showed he was a chicken-head, we hated him and then we loved him again – I am referring to Lord Blair's laying on of hands – and now we hate him again. Didn't Arafat have a back-to-front but similar track record for the Israelis and Americans? First he was a super-terrorist longing to destroy Israel, then he was a super-statesman shaking hands with Yitzhak Rabin, then he became a super-terrorist again when he realised he'd been tricked over the future of "Palestine".
One thing we can do is spot the future Gaddafis and Saddams whom we are breeding right now, the future crackpot, torture-chamber sadists who are cultivating their young bats with our economic help. In Uzbekistan, for example. And in Turkmenistan. And in Tajikistan and Chechenya and other "stans". But no. These are men we have to deal with, men who will sell us oil, buy our arms and keep Muslim "terrorists" at bay.
It is all wearingly familiar. And now we are back at it again, banging our desks in spiritual unity. We don't have many options, do we, unless we want to see another Srebrenica? But hold on. Didn't that happen long after we had imposed our "no-fly" zone over Bosnia?
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On March 23 2011 20:46 pylonsalad wrote: Pika, you seem to place no value on the lives we saved just by stopping Ghaddaffi from entering Bhengazi.
Nope, i just value all lives the same, being them civilians who are neutral, pro or anti gadafi.
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On March 23 2011 20:17 Bartuc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 19:42 vetinari wrote: Nah, the cost comes from the bombs. A tomahawk is a couple mil and fighter deployed weapons are generally 500k+.
It adds up pretty quick. Hm, I wonder why the US never use older lower tech ordnance to save cost though? I don't think the enemies in Libya they're engaging require the latest tech anyway. I think it probably has something to do with precision strikes and not wanting to cause collateral damage? Or does the US army simply not have an underlying system architecture (if they're dependent on this) to use older weapons anymore because they've replaced them all with newer tech? Actually, we do. JDAMs are basically Vietnam era bombs retrofitted with GPS guidance. We still need to replace them after we use them though. Tomahawks are expensive as hell, but bombs dropped by aircraft are a lot cheaper.
Tomahawks are mainly good because they fly under the radar and can safely take out AA and Radar positions. B2s require tons of maintenance just to field and there's only about 20 in existence. JDAMs and laser guided bombs from strike aircraft are much cheaper but you can only do that after hampering the AA.
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no boots on the ground ?O_o
Camp Lejeune Marines To Libya
ONSLOW COUNTY -- We've seen Camp Lejuene Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan and now they are joining the fight against Libya.
About 2,200 Marines from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, or 26th MEU will take part. Their mission is to help end the violence directed at the Libyan people.
"In Libya right now they are doing exactly what we need them to do. They are doing what they are told and right now that's protecting Libyan people against Qadhafi forces," said Captain Timothy Patrick, a Marine with the 26th MEU.
http://www.wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html
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Fighter planes are also very much able to deliver strike packages of plain old dumb bombs, but this has to do with avoiding collateral damage, and will probably only be used in an all out war situation.
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We should stop the facade and really start laying down the hurt on Gaddafi.
This isn't about protecting the civillians, it is to a degree but we should get rid of that dictator first. We can't keep the sides from fighting because that will divide the country and force us to pay for that no-fly zone for a long time.'
We can't let Gaddafi get back in control because he is going to be funding terrorism once he regains control.
Gaddafi has to go and diplomacy will not get him out of there. Allow the rebels to gain their momentum again and be done with Libya in under 3 months.
Just stretch the meaning of "defend" and start considering any Gaddafi tank movement and offensive action against the people of Libya.
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On March 23 2011 21:53 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 20:46 pylonsalad wrote: Pika, you seem to place no value on the lives we saved just by stopping Ghaddaffi from entering Bhengazi. Nope, i just value all lives the same, being them civilians who are neutral, pro or anti gadafi.
There didn't seem to be many pro-Ghadaffi civilians. The few protests we saw were small, and there were numerous reports that among these protesters, many were from army forces or from the police.
Protests in Tripoli spoke for themselves. Tripoli is as pro-Ghadaffi as you get, with Syrte.
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On March 23 2011 20:17 Bartuc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 19:42 vetinari wrote: Nah, the cost comes from the bombs. A tomahawk is a couple mil and fighter deployed weapons are generally 500k+.
It adds up pretty quick. Hm, I wonder why the US never use older lower tech ordnance to save cost though? I don't think the enemies in Libya they're engaging require the latest tech anyway. I think it probably has something to do with precision strikes and not wanting to cause collateral damage? Or does the US army simply not have an underlying system architecture (if they're dependent on this) to use older weapons anymore because they've replaced them all with newer tech?
For reasons already posted, but primarily for a show of power. P.S. awesome article by Robert Fisk.
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On March 24 2011 03:29 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:53 Pika Chu wrote:On March 23 2011 20:46 pylonsalad wrote: Pika, you seem to place no value on the lives we saved just by stopping Ghaddaffi from entering Bhengazi. Nope, i just value all lives the same, being them civilians who are neutral, pro or anti gadafi. There didn't seem to be many pro-Ghadaffi civilians. The few protests we saw were small, and there were numerous reports that among these protesters, many were from army forces or from the police. Protests in Tripoli spoke for themselves. Tripoli is as pro-Ghadaffi as you get, with Syrte.
I'm glad you know so well, you must've been there yourself. It's about tribes not individual choices. Some tribes are against Gadafi and this is more of a inter tribal fight.
Gaddafi has to go and diplomacy will not get him out of there. Allow the rebels to gain their momentum again and be done with Libya in under 3 months.
Hehe, you're too naive mate, after we're done with Gadafi it's just the beginning. We'll have to babysit them for many years or they will just kill each others in this fight for power.
Don't worry about terrorism, no matter if Gadafi is dead or alive it's still going to happen after these actions, Gadafi isn't exactly an overmind (heh, haven't done a sc analogy for a while :D).
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Hehe, you're too naive mate, after we're done with Gadafi it's just the beginning. We'll have to babysit them for many years or they will just kill each others in this fight for power.
Don't worry about terrorism, no matter if Gadafi is dead or alive it's still going to happen after these actions, Gadafi isn't exactly an overmind (heh, haven't done a sc analogy for a while :D).
Who said things were rainbows and sunshine after Gaddafi is gone? With this mostly being a tribal war it's not unlikely that they will attempt to commit a genocide on the tribe that Gaddafi is a part off.
As for balanced power struggles between armed groups, that is indeed a possible outcome. The only outcome we can't have is Gaddafi winning. If a Gaddafi 2.0 stands up that really doesn't matter much, it's just this Gaddafi that we can't have maintaining power.
I didn't say that Gaddafi was the mastermind behind all the terrorism in the world but if you knew your history you would know he organized acts of terrorism and is if he claims to do it again then that is not a hollow threat.
Terrorism isn't something that you win or you lose. The less we have of it the better. Gaddafi means more terrorism, even if all you can think of is self-intrest that should be enough to understand that he is a threat to the west that cannot be allowed to exist.
Gaddafi is a problem without a doubt. The rebels might be a problem (i consider the odds of a new dictatorship or a sham democracy to be far more likely then a positive outcome).
Do you want to shoot yourself in the foot? Or do you want to flip a coin where heads means a bullet in the foot and tails means walking away unharmed?
We know Gaddafi is trouble. The rebels are likely to be trouble aswell but atleast there is the possibility that it's better. At the very least the rebels are more thankfull to the west then the dictator that had his military push halted.
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On March 24 2011 04:00 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +Hehe, you're too naive mate, after we're done with Gadafi it's just the beginning. We'll have to babysit them for many years or they will just kill each others in this fight for power.
Don't worry about terrorism, no matter if Gadafi is dead or alive it's still going to happen after these actions, Gadafi isn't exactly an overmind (heh, haven't done a sc analogy for a while :D). Who said things were rainbows and sunshine after Gaddafi is gone? With this mostly being a tribal war it's not unlikely that they will attempt to commit a genocide on the tribe that Gaddafi is a part off. As for balanced power struggles between armed groups, that is indeed a possible outcome. The only outcome we can't have is Gaddafi winning. If a Gaddafi 2.0 stands up that really doesn't matter much, it's just this Gaddafi that we can't have maintaining power. I didn't say that Gaddafi was the mastermind behind all the terrorism in the world but if you knew your history you would know he organized acts of terrorism and is if he claims to do it again then that is not a hollow threat. Terrorism isn't something that you win or you lose. The less we have of it the better. Gaddafi means more terrorism, even if all you can think of is self-intrest that should be enough to understand that he is a threat to the west that cannot be allowed to exist. Gaddafi is a problem without a doubt. The rebels might be a problem (i consider the odds of a new dictatorship or a sham democracy to be far more likely then a positive outcome). Do you want to shoot yourself in the foot? Or do you want to flip a coin where heads means a bullet in the foot and tails means walking away unharmed? We know Gaddafi is trouble. The rebels are likely to be trouble aswell but atleast there is the possibility that it's better. At the very least the rebels are more thankfull to the west then the dictator that had his military push halted.
Khadaffi is trouble for who?
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On March 24 2011 02:16 ImFromPortugal wrote:no boots on the ground ?O_o Camp Lejeune Marines To LibyaONSLOW COUNTY -- We've seen Camp Lejuene Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan and now they are joining the fight against Libya.
About 2,200 Marines from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, or 26th MEU will take part. Their mission is to help end the violence directed at the Libyan people.
"In Libya right now they are doing exactly what we need them to do. They are doing what they are told and right now that's protecting Libyan people against Qadhafi forces," said Captain Timothy Patrick, a Marine with the 26th MEU.http://www.wcti12.com/news/27257042/detail.html
These are just the marines doing the flights/refueling/etc, right? I read the article which seems to indicate as much, just the way the article throws it out there sounds like we're sending in troops, which I hope is not the case.
And I agree that we should do w/e we can (with airstrikes/missles) to remove gaddhafi. Looking at it from the point we're at now, rather then the "never shoulda started it" point, if gaddhafi is allowed to stay in power at this point then not only are shit-loads of people gonna be massacred (which, as is being pointed out, could happen anyways), but all of the countries that rushed in are gonna look like bumbling idiots to everyone (rather than just the naysayers). It's kinda a catch-22 though to be honest, because the rebels have to be the ones (IMO) to actually remove him.
Assuming he doesn't flee, and the rebels push the front line to tripoli, what do you think their chances are of taking that town? Obviously a lot of the people there are being paid off/intimidated into "supporting" him, but we don't know how many. Yes, just conjecture, but do you think if the rebels were at tripoli's doorstep enough people would join them that they could just storm his compound(s)?
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