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Hi,
I'm trying to translate a german expression, but I'm not sure concerning the adjective dynamic. If I search for a translation of the german word "dynamisch", LEO gives me "dynamic", but if I search for "dynamical" there are also results shown, plus a link to a discussion with the same title as my thread has. It doesn't have a conclusion on this, besides "ask a native speaker", so I thought, I could do that here. 
The whole expression is "dynamische Untersuchungen": "dynamic(al) research/investigation". The "dynamic" describes a method in computational chemistry, where you don't calculate the static properties of some molecule, but its movement etc. over time, thus "dynamic".
Would be happy about any opinions, thanks.
Edit: Thanks for all your opinions. I'll look for other examples in this context to decide. I got my confirmation, that "dynamical" sounds strange and I'm very pleased with myself. 
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Calgary25980 Posts
I've never heard the word 'dynamical' in all my life. Google says it's a word, but it seems to overlap with 'dynamic' completely. Since they're both adjectives, I don't see any reason not to use 'dynamic'.
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Dynamic. I have never heard anyone use the word 'dynamical'; I'd guess it's limited to the mathematical concept.
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Dynamical just sounds fake and will probably make some of listeners, just like us TLers, think you are making stuff up. Even if it is a word, you'll make some of the people hearing it think that you made it up/are uneducated. Much better to stick with dynamic.
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Yeah, I can't imagine a sentence in which "dynamical" would be in lieu of "dynamic"...didn't even know it was a word.
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On January 26 2011 03:27 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Dynamical just sounds fake and will probably make some of listeners, just like us TLers, think you are making stuff up. Even if it is a word, you'll make some of the people hearing it think that you made it up/are uneducated. Much better to stick with dynamic.
This post made me cringe. Obviously this is a question concerning a paper directed towards an audience educated in this particular field, not "us TLers", and should be treated as such, meaning just because the average person doesn't know an expression exists, it may still be the only correct option in a certain context.
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There doesn't seem to be any context where that's the case, though.
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Both words are viable; make your choice depending on your target audience. You'll probably find more success with dynamical in discussions with minds well-steeped in hard maths and physics, where both words are specifically used in different contexts. In general vernacular, dynamic will do the job, but in jargon, try to look up examples of how dynamic and dynamical are used (e.g. dynamics vs kinematics, dynamical as characterizing a system) so you can get a grasp of the contexts they're appropriate in.
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On January 26 2011 03:43 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:27 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Dynamical just sounds fake and will probably make some of listeners, just like us TLers, think you are making stuff up. Even if it is a word, you'll make some of the people hearing it think that you made it up/are uneducated. Much better to stick with dynamic. This post made me cringe. Obviously this is a question concerning a paper directed towards an audience educated in this particular field, not "us TLers", and should be treated as such, meaning just because the average person doesn't know an expression exists, it may still be the only correct option in a certain context.
I would use the word if the audience knows it is a work. If you are speaking to a group of people that study mathematics they will know that it is a word and would not think you are making it up so go nuts. Personally, I have heard of dynamical but I just stick with dynamic because it is more common and people know it is a word.
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On January 26 2011 03:51 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:43 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On January 26 2011 03:27 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Dynamical just sounds fake and will probably make some of listeners, just like us TLers, think you are making stuff up. Even if it is a word, you'll make some of the people hearing it think that you made it up/are uneducated. Much better to stick with dynamic. This post made me cringe. Obviously this is a question concerning a paper directed towards an audience educated in this particular field, not "us TLers", and should be treated as such, meaning just because the average person doesn't know an expression exists, it may still be the only correct option in a certain context. I would use the word if the audience knows it is a work. If you are speaking to a group of people that study mathematics they will know that it is a word and would not think you are making it up so go nuts. Personally, I have heard of dynamical but I just stick with dynamic because it is more common and people know it is a word.
Yes that is exactly what I meant. If you talk to ppl studying maths, they will laugh at you when you call it "dynamic system" when the actual term in this case is "dynamical system". Of course, if your target audience does not consist of native speaking scientists going for the safer "dynamic" is the obvious choice. but when writing a dissertation or some highly scientific paper, it will (or can) make a difference which the average native speaker might not know.
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Thank you all - I'll look up some examples, "dynamical" was the suggestion of a friend and maybe it's really used in this context, but it sounds quite strange to me. As it seems, it's the same for native speakers.
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The only time I've heard dynamical is with mathematicians who deal with "dynamical systems", which is a field of mathematics. But if you say "dynamic systems" it's not like people won't know what you're talking about.
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On January 26 2011 03:23 Chill wrote:
I've never heard the word 'dynamical' in all my life. Google says it's a word, but it seems to overlap with 'dynamic' completely. Since they're both adjectives, I don't see any reason not to use 'dynamic'.
Dynamical could also refer to something about the dynamics of a situation or object.
For example a dynamical solution or approach would be something arising from understanding the dynamics of the problem. It may be dynamic, passive or neither.
A dynamical system is one that has interesting dynamics. Again the system itself may or may not be dynamic (maybe even depending on our point of view).
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Get some british people in here. Usually stuff like this is the british english / NA english difference.
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England2662 Posts
On January 26 2011 04:27 Euronyme wrote:
Get some british people in here. Usually stuff like this is the british english / NA english difference.
Dynamical is some fucking abomination of a word.
In German -> English translations, Dynamisch (or anything similar) becomes Dynamic 99 times out of a hundred.
Dynamical would essentially mean exactly the same thing but sounds completely retarded. Similar examples are: Economical and Majestical.
Americans seem more likely to add the "-al" and they're never right about the language. Seriously, it sounds stupid.
Edit: Infact, economical has a different meaning to economic.
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On January 26 2011 04:33 Flicky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 04:27 Euronyme wrote:
Get some british people in here. Usually stuff like this is the british english / NA english difference. Dynamical is some fucking abomination of a word. In German -> English translations, Dynamisch (or anything similar) becomes Dynamic 99 times out of a hundred. Dynamical would essentially mean exactly the same thing but sounds completely retarded. Similar examples are: Economical and Majestical. Americans seem more likely to add the "-al" and they're never right about the language. Seriously, it sounds stupid. Edit: Infact, economical has a different meaning to economic.
Yes, but in some maths and sciences, they use the word "dynamical" as a descriptor as opposed to dynamic. At least that's the case here in Canada.
For example, today in my Algebra course, we looked at "Discrete dynamical systems".
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Is the "research dynamic" or is "dynamische Untersuchungen" a term to describe something very specific. So if you mention "dynamische Untersuchungen" does everyone know what exactly you mean?
If not, use dynamic
If yes, google
"Computational chemistry" and the variances "dynamic(al) research/investigation".
And try to find some work/papers which fit your topic. Use the word they use (prefer english work over foreign work).
I think "dynamical investigation" is correct, it gives results like this:
"Modeling the Photophysics and Photochromic Potential of 1,2-Dihydronaphthalene (DHN): A Combined CASPT2//CASSCF-Topological and MMVB-Dynamical Investigation"
"The dynamical investigation of protein systems is a challenging task. Among the few published works there are attempts to analyse the chaoticity of the dynamics calculating the Lyapunov exponents of the molecular trajectory"
"NMR Structural and Dynamical Investigation of the Isolated Voltage-Sensing Domain of the Potassium Channel KvAP: Implications for Voltage Gating. "
Though I personally dont have a clue, so you have to search for yourself
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I'm not sure, yet, but it doesn't really matter that much, mostly I'm just curious. Could it be, that the difference between dynamic investigation and dynamical investigation is, that not the investigation itself is dynamic, but the system (as mentioned in other posts) my investigation is about, is a dynamic one - or rather the dynamic properties of the the system are investigated, contrary to only looking at its static properties.
To differentiate between dynamic investigation as in me jumping around instead of sitting on my chair in front of the computer, and investigate a dynamic system, maybe the word dynamical is used.
Whatever - I asked someone with a little bit more experience in writing stuff like this, than me. I'll just do, what he tells me, although he's no native speaker and maybe I will just be one of the many who copy wrong translations from each other. The german version is what matters, anyway.
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I'm very sure the correct word to use is dynamic
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You should make a poll since grammar by democracy is always effective.
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On January 26 2011 05:27 Gummy wrote:
You should make a poll since grammar by democracy is always effective.
In this case it is not a grammatical question. This are two words that mean exactly the same, with the difference that dynamic also can be used as a noun and dynamic beeing more common.(edited contradiction rofl)
The word dynamical is used to be known only in a educated/scientific audience, so if you like to sound intellectual, not like the usual tler, you should use it. A poll would direct you to dynamic tho.
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On January 26 2011 05:27 Gummy wrote:
You should make a poll since grammar by democracy is always effective.
In fact you're right.
The language is made up by the speakers of that language. If all of a sudden everyone says dynamical it would become a new word.
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Only ever heard the world dynamical in "Dynamical Systems".
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On January 26 2011 05:45 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 05:27 Gummy wrote:
You should make a poll since grammar by democracy is always effective. In fact you're right. The language is made up by the speakers of that language. If all of a sudden everyone says dynamical it would become a new word.
As i already pointed out, you are wrong in this case because the main difference between these two words is that "dynamic" is more common.
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I was joking. In physics there is a particular branch called "dynamics" so the implied noun form is dynamic for particular results and the adjective is "dynamical." i
It is nothing more than an attempt at disambiguation.
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I've never head the word dynamical. I don't think many people ever have. Best to stick with dynamic imo. Personally, if I heard someone say dynamical (if I hadn't seen this thread) I'd be skeptical.
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Hyrule19057 Posts
I've changed many instances of "dynamical" to "dynamic" in LP...because "dynamical" is redundant, dumb, and redundant. My personal belief is that "dynamical" got started the same way as "irregardless" but nobody noticed fast enough, so it became "real" (but it's still dumb).
There are a few legitimate uses of the word though, such as a Dynamical System.
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Dynamical would essentially mean exactly the same thing but sounds completely retarded. Similar examples are: Economical and Majestical.
Americans seem more likely to add the "-al" and they're never right about the language. Seriously, it sounds stupid.
I'm an American who's read quite an extensive set of American literature and published material, and I've never heard of the term Dynamical, Majestical or Economical (except in the sense of being efficient).
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On January 26 2011 03:27 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Dynamical just sounds fake and will probably make some of listeners, just like us TLers, think you are making stuff up. Even if it is a word, you'll make some of the people hearing it think that you made it up/are uneducated. Much better to stick with dynamic.
There's a branch of mathematics called "dynamical systems", but never "dynamic(s) systems".
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Possibly the word has the merit of being part of another, actually useful word: "dynamically."
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just like ironical can be used in lieu of ironic, dynamical can be for ironic. But it makes you look like a douchey know it all (ie really fucking good hehehe).
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Pretty much any adjective you can think of that ends in "-ic" has the alternate ending "-ical". Sometimes the "-ic" version is more common (as with this word), sometimes the "-ical" version is more common (ex. "cylindrical"). I can't offer a good reason for this redundancy except that English is a rather haphazard language. Sometimes the two versions evolve to develop different connotations (like the scientific use of "dynamical" that people mentioned) but often they remain virtually identical except that one becomes dominant.
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Hm, luckily only two pages, so there's still hope.
Try to form the adverb to "dynamic" without -al(l).
Now try the same with -al(l).
Now let's assume there's someone who reads "...is dynamically adjusted..." and wants to change the adverb to an adjective. Have a guess what the result will be.
By the way, there's a discussions page on leo.org. Use it.
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typical = typic
theoretical = theoretic
identical = identic
heretic = heretical
grammatical, no "grammatic"
good to know your tongue... Oh, only because a word seems not so super cool doesn't make it wrong.
Also beeing "redundant, dumb, and redundant" in your opinion, does not make it wrong either, nor you may never heard of them except in one sense does make it wrong, nor you look very smart.
@dagobert: read the opening post, he already read leo.org s discussion :p
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I think dynamical might have a special meaning in math, cuz my dad wrote a book on something like that...
http://www.amazon.com/Qualitative-Dynamical-Systems-Applied-Mathematics/dp/0824705262
"Qualitative Theory of Dynamical Systems"
edit:
On January 26 2011 08:53 stepover12 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:27 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Dynamical just sounds fake and will probably make some of listeners, just like us TLers, think you are making stuff up. Even if it is a word, you'll make some of the people hearing it think that you made it up/are uneducated. Much better to stick with dynamic. There's a branch of mathematics called "dynamical systems", but never "dynamic(s) systems".
yeah this
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My English teacher used to use "ironical" all the time when I would have used "ironic." I never really understood the difference, if there even was one, but I just trusted that he used it correctly. I am fairly certain he knew what he was talking about.
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if you post in this thread, reality may rule your opinion, like in the first post.
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Edit: I think "-ic" is just another of the suffixes, so my previous thought here, is probably wrong...
+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 06:08 Gummy wrote:
I was joking. In physics there is a particular branch called "dynamics" so the implied noun form is dynamic for particular results and the adjective is "dynamical." Could that be the answer? I didn't really pay attention to it at the beginning, but if I compare with German, we have the suffix "-isch", or "-lich" to make an adjective out of a noun. As I understand it, it's the same with "-al" in English. (Klinik - klinisch; Historie - historisch; clinic - clinical; history - historical) There are also suffixes to make a noun out of an adjective (happy - happiness;...). In some way the original form is either an adjective or a noun, and the other part can be constructed. For "dynamic" the adjective is the original form, so "dynamical" sounds like "happical", or something like that. But then there is the specific field in physics, chemistry and, as you say mathematics called "dynamics". Although it's called so, because it describes dynamic systems, it's seen as a new noun and thus the fitting adjective would be dynamical. (Maybe I'm totally wrong, but thinking about this surprisingly is kind of interesting. )
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Katowice25012 Posts
I've never heard the word "dynamical" either and I have a pen next to my name which makes me an expert.
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Don't worry, German grammar police is in the building!
As the only example of "dynamical" in action seems to be the maths system I assume that it's only used IF it would be unclear otherwise that "dynamic" is used as an adjective.
F.e.:
"Dynamic Systems" -> "Dynamical Systems"
would mean different things if you didn't know what Dynamical Systems are (like me) and could be misinterpreted without the ending making clear that it's used as an adjective.
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On January 26 2011 19:30 CPTslut wrote:
Don't worry, German grammar police is in the building!
As the only example of "dynamical" in action seems to be the maths system I assume that it's only used IF it would be unclear otherwise that "dynamic" is used as an adjective.
F.e.:
"Dynamic Systems" -> "Dynamical Systems"
would mean different things if you didn't know what Dynamical Systems are (like me) and could be misinterpreted without the ending making clear that it's used as an adjective.
I find your name insulting to all us sluts.
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Don't question my competence, I truly am the captain of all sluts! I have a sweater that proves it, do you own a Cpt. Slut shirt?
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Just stand there and say D...y....n.....a.....m.....i....c....*look at the crowd, if they seem to expect you to continue the word.*...a....l. *Or stop if they don't look expectant.* There, done! Wooooo!
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Hyrule19057 Posts
On January 26 2011 09:37 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:
typical = typic
theoretical = theoretic
identical = identic
heretic = heretical
grammatical, no "grammatic"
good to know your tongue... Oh, only because a word seems not so super cool doesn't make it wrong.
Also beeing "redundant, dumb, and redundant" in your opinion, does not make it wrong either, nor you may never heard of them except in one sense does make it wrong, nor you look very smart.
@dagobert: read the opening post, he already read leo.org s discussion :p
No, but it being awkward for every use aside from dynamical systems does. The same with typic, theoretic, and identic. Typic and and identic are obsolete (and I've never seen or heard them actually used until your post).
Additionally, your heretic/heretical line is backwards, and heretic is a noun, not an adjective. The fact that I was a writing tutor in university certainly shows how much I don't know about English, Mr German.
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On January 26 2011 23:34 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 09:37 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:
typical = typic
theoretical = theoretic
identical = identic
heretic = heretical
grammatical, no "grammatic"
good to know your tongue... Oh, only because a word seems not so super cool doesn't make it wrong.
Also beeing "redundant, dumb, and redundant" in your opinion, does not make it wrong either, nor you may never heard of them except in one sense does make it wrong, nor you look very smart.
@dagobert: read the opening post, he already read leo.org s discussion :p No, but it being awkward for every use aside from dynamical systems does. The same with typic, theoretic, and identic. Typic and and identic are obsolete (and I've never seen or heard them actually used until your post). Additionally, your heretic/heretical line is backwards, and heretic is a noun, not an adjective. The fact that I was a writing tutor in university certainly shows how much I don't know about English, Mr German. Oh, stop bickering about who knows more English, fellows: it's too vast a language for anyone to know completely. If anything, I find that well-educated foreign speakers of a language tend to have a better knowledge of obscure words that are usually passed over in favor of synonyms.
The "-ic" and "-ical" suffixes are nearly always synonymous, as I mentioned on the last page, although one form usually dominates for a given word. "Heretic" is an adjective (listed in the OED as rare), as is "grammatic" for that matter.
When I'm thinking about it, I usually use the shorter form (e.g. "grammatic" rather than "grammatical") but that's more an affectation of mine than anything else.
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According to Webster's it can be either, however, all of the usage examples are "dynamic." I've personally never heard or used "dynamical" as an adjective or in any other part of speech. Even though many adjectives end in "al," English is a language fraught with inconsistency and "dynamic' is far and wide the most common usage.
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What a dynamical discussion!
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In my experience, as stated by previous posters, I have only seen "dynamical" used in Linear Algebra with "Dynamical Systems". It's certainly a non-colloquial term with most usage being maths related. That's another thing - I never know whether to say math or maths. Foreign TA's I've had all said maths but American students and professors all say math.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_systems_theory
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On January 26 2011 18:56 heyoka wrote:
I've never heard the word "dynamical" either and I have a pen next to my name which makes me an expert.
the reason you are acknowledged is because you give good arguments, not because you say you are acknowledged. you sound like "i have 2k posts, 3 digits shut up." come on.
On January 26 2011 23:34 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 09:37 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:
typical = typic
theoretical = theoretic
identical = identic
heretic = heretical
grammatical, no "grammatic"
good to know your tongue... Oh, only because a word seems not so super cool doesn't make it wrong.
Also beeing "redundant, dumb, and redundant" in your opinion, does not make it wrong either, nor you may never heard of them except in one sense does make it wrong, nor you look very smart.
@dagobert: read the opening post, he already read leo.org s discussion :p No, but it being awkward for every use aside from dynamical systems does. The same with typic, theoretic, and identic. Typic and and identic are obsolete (and I've never seen or heard them actually used until your post). Additionally, your heretic/heretical line is backwards, and heretic is a noun, not an adjective. The fact that I was a writing tutor in university certainly shows how much I don't know about English, Mr German.
i want to learn. i dont learn from the argument, I am a (insert your status).
i learn from reason. the words i researched are from dictionarys. only because you are what so ever, does not make uncommon words wrong. imHo ( where is the H gone recently)
ps.: also mutual discussion, with my honest oppinion:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188398¤tpage=8#149
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On January 26 2011 04:33 Flicky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 04:27 Euronyme wrote:
Get some british people in here. Usually stuff like this is the british english / NA english difference. Dynamical is some fucking abomination of a word.
But it's a word, so I guess you could use it if you really don't like dynamic.
IMO Dynamic > Dynamical haha
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whoever says dynamical is a word deserves to be dragged naked into a street and shot as public reminder to stop fucking with English
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This reminds me when I used the word "ironical" at a party, and all of the university graduates said it wasn't a word and I made it up. Then proceeded to have an orgy. I was the geek who pulled their dictionary off the shelf, and highlighted the word "ironical."
Just because someone hasn't heard a word, or ever used it themselves, doesn't necessairly mean it is wrong. My advice as a translator would be to find papers similar to those read and written by your target audience and use that version of the word. Or, if your concern is with yourself as an individual author, use the word you feel is best, as both are correct.
If you do use dynamical, just make sure you eat your candy bars with a fork.
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On January 26 2011 09:37 VabuDeltaKaiser wrote:
typic
theoretic
identic
Never, ever seen these in print.
typisch, identisch and theoretisch, sure.
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On January 29 2011 10:25 d_so wrote:
whoever says dynamical is a word deserves to be dragged naked into a street and shot as public reminder to stop fucking with English
HEY this is totally reasonable!!
wait.... NO?
you are really funny, like yea read some of your posts and it was entertaining.
like realy entertaining, without any content, you are really good, go on
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On January 27 2011 02:55 j0k3r wrote:In my experience, as stated by previous posters, I have only seen "dynamical" used in Linear Algebra with "Dynamical Systems". It's certainly a non-colloquial term with most usage being maths related. That's another thing - I never know whether to say math or maths. Foreign TA's I've had all said maths but American students and professors all say math. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_systems_theory
"math" and "maths" are both abbreviations for "mathematics" so if you want to be totally correct you have to say "mathematics"
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About-to-graduate physicist here (and grammar nazi).
I do computational quantum chromodynamics, and in our field it is "dynamical" in this context e.g. "three flavors of dynamical quarks".
It's not a construction in common usage, but in physics usage (and presumably in computational chemistry, which likely shares a lot of terminology), "dynamical" is usually used to describe "having the property of motion/change". This is probably because "dynamics" is used as a noun, to mean "a description of something's motion/change" (i.e. "electrodynamics", meaning the sense in which electromagnetic fields change, in contrast to electrostatics), and "dynamical" is just the adjective form.
It would be confusing if "dynamic" were the adjective but "dynamics" were a noun. So "dynamic" is deprecated in favor of "dynamical".
Yes, it sounds awkward outside of a scientific context, but it's the construct in common usage in the sciences.
Hope this helps.
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Dynamical is also used in Engineering/Physics in the context of dynamical systems.
Mostly though the word used in English is dynamic, and it should be dynamic in the OP's example.
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EPT
