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if a chinese kid can talk to their parents and generate empathy, they wont be a slave for the rest of your life. you learn these speech/coercion skills by being social and take a speech class wont hurt either.
its pretty easy to change your parents mind, after all, they are simply looking for your best interest.
to the people shocked at the mom and why the kid stuck through it.. if they kid really hated it, she would show signs of resentment. thats not healthy.
ive never been close to my parents (im chinese, born in america btw) and the moment they step over the line i just walk out the door and go to my friends house for the night. they over react and call 911. honestly, what kind of cop would blame the kid for being the douche when the kid tells the story of the parent making him do x pages of homework before he gets a bowl of rice. lol.
so really, the kid has all the power in the relationship, you just have to know how to abuse it.
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On January 10 2011 08:30 Cambam wrote: Show nested quote + [citation needed] http://tinyurl.com/28844zjYou know what I would like a Citation for? A single Psychological studying promoting the kind of parenting in the OP. But I guess Psychology isn't a real science and is just a bunch of western garbage amirite (A common belief among Asians) The reason why Western parenting gets a bad rep is because so many people are so horribly inept at it. As opposed to Chinese parenting, which really requires nothing more then making love a conditional reward for performance.
this and
On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote: Show nested quote + 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims? I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
are my two favorite posts so far, and I completely agree
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What I hate about a lot of Asian parents is that they seem to want to show off their kids to show how awesome their own family is. It is as if their own kid is some sort of car or house that you want to make sure everyone in the world knows about.
But American parents are also at fault. We seem to be very chill and have this idea that you do not need to do a lot to succeed. And those kids that get straight A's, they are natural genius's.
But we need to have better goals for ourselves. In my family, rather than having straight A's, we instead had role models that were rather than football players, famous intellectuals. And my parents, rather than promoting that slavery like parenting, they instead promoted critical thinking, learning about politics, history, and theories.
So as a conclusion, I guess a mix of typical Asian and Western parenting seems to be the best way to raise your kids in the end.
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On January 10 2011 09:31 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
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On January 10 2011 09:40 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:31 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims? As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough: Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. Show nested quote +I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms". Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
I'm calling massive BS on you here. Firstly you say "99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes", as if to undermine every one who disagrees with the parenting style presented in the OP.Then when some one attacks you for defending the article, you say "anecdotal evidence form Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence" as if that now holds some meaning? Hypocritical bias FTW.
edit: My comprehension fails. Or the clarity of your post fails. Or both.
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On January 10 2011 09:40 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:31 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims? As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough: Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. Show nested quote +I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms". Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
Please go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims.
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No video games?
>.< yeah right...
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Amy Chua is biased because of her background. Anyone reading this article should recognize this.
First, she titles the article "Why chinese mothers are superior." She is a Chinese mother, and thus would tend to view herself and her views in a positive light. Also since it worked for her, she is more likely to believe it to be the superior method. Did you know 90% of people think they're above average?
Second, her article and evidence is based on common stereotype, that "asian mothers are superior", which she proclaims as a truth -- something one should never do in an article -- her own experience, and the experience of her friends and colleagues. Since Mrs. Chua is a Yale professor, her colleagues and friends are also more likely to be smart, well-educated people, and the asians she knows were probably successful themselves, and probably have successful children.
In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers
The study she cites has less than 100 total participants. Pretty sure you want a larger sample size than that before you start generalizing based on its results. The studies done definitely indicate that Chinese immigrant parents drill their children harder than American parents, but thats about it. This can't be extended to all Chinese parents, and this can't be evidence of their superiority.
By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
Another generalization based on zero evidence.
• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.
Mrs. Chua's harsh list of rules tells us all we need to know. Anyone who raised their children like this shouldn't write an essay on why Chinese mothers are superior, the bias simply is going to be there, even if you attempt to be a subjective writer, an endeavor which Mrs. Chua obviously didn't undertake. Also this list doesn't work if any of her children went to a high school attended by the child of another Chinese parent. Mrs. Chua could simply be exaggerating when she says that they must be the "No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama" but the rest of the paper doesn't give me this impression.
As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me. When I mentioned that I had done this at a dinner party, I was immediately ostracized. One guest named Marcy got so upset she broke down in tears and had to leave early. My friend Susan, the host, tried to rehabilitate me with the remaining guests.
Seriously Mrs. Chua? You were so emotional in your denouncing of your child that another parent at the dinner party broke into tears and had to leave? How does this show that Mrs. Chua is a good parent or that Chinese parenting is better? It only seems to show your own failings, not anyone elses.
Western parents might not push their children enough. But Mrs. Chua's parents were professors, and she and her husband are professors. Maybe this has something do with their success in schools? Parenting your children as Mrs. Chua did is probably not the best method, nor would everyones children be clones of Mrs. Chua and her children if their parents followed her methods. She comes across as an elitist, and this entire paper is an elaboration of her elitist views and her excuse/explanation for her failings in any areas she didn't gain experience in while growing up.
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On January 10 2011 10:07 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:40 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:31 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims? As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough: On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms". Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence. Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proofPlease go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims.
That entirely depends on how you define "successful." If we take the definition of "successful" from the fact that the author of the article thinks her children to be "successful," then the burden of proof is on those who dismiss the possibility of such parenting to be effective. If we are speaking in more general terms, there is burden of proof on members of both sides of this argument since both sides have made claims without *proof*.
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My favourite part was how another parent had to leave a party, crying due to the writer calling her daughter "garbage". How dare she >_>.
This method of parenting seems to be the best option, if you want a robot for a kid.
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On January 10 2011 10:03 LilClinkin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:40 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:31 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims? As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough: On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms". Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence. I'm calling massive BS on you here. Firstly you say "99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes", as if to undermine every one who disagrees with the parenting style presented in the OP.Then when some one attacks you for defending the article, you say "anecdotal evidence form Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence" as if that now holds some meaning? Hypocritical bias FTW. edit: My comprehension fails. Or the clarity of your post fails. Or both.
Yeah, I'm confused. Sorry if my post was unclear; the main point I was trying to get across is that anecdotal evidence is always worthless, no matter who it's coming from. I'm just trying to move this discussion towards one where people cite sources and don't just make unsubstantiated claims.
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On January 10 2011 10:16 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 10:07 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 09:40 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:31 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims? As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough: On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms". Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence. Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proofPlease go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims. That entirely depends on how you define "successful." If we take the definition of "successful" from the fact that the author of the article thinks her children to be "successful," then the burden of proof is on those who dismiss the possibility of such parenting to be effective. If we are speaking in more general terms, there is burden of proof on members of both sides of this argument since both sides have made claims without *proof*.
If the definition of "successful" is that the parents think their children are successful, then there's no point in having a discussion.
The whole idea here is that the author of this article makes a pretty substantive claim (that Chinese mothers are "superior) and thus the burden of proof is on the side of Chinese parenting. The article provides only anecdotal evidence, thus anecdotal evidence in response is absolutely appropriate in this case.
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On January 10 2011 10:07 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:40 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:31 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not. You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims? As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough: On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms". Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence. Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proofPlease go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims.
Well, to be fair, the burden of proof lies on both sides of the argument. People claiming that Western Parenting Style is better, people claiming that Chinese style is better, and people claiming that Chinese style is wrong are all making claims and thus all have the burden of proof.
But sure, I'll post some evidence. It's obviously not definitive proof that Chinese-style is better than Western, but it's a start. And it's published in Science. It is an article examining reasons for the gap in math achievements between American students and Chinese and Japanese students. Here's a quote from the "Parental Beliefs" section:
"Experiences that parents provide their children may be strongly influenced by their general beliefs about the components of success. For example, parents who emphasize ability as the most important requisite for success may be less disposed to stress the need to work hard than would parents who believe sucess is largely dependent on effort.
In exploring cultural differences in beliefs about the relative importance of factors leading to success in school, we asked the mothers to rank effort, natural ability, difficulty of the schoolwork, and luck or chance by importance in determining the child's performance in school. They were then asked to assign a total of ten points to the four factors. Japanese mothers assigned the most points to effort, and American mothers gave the largest number of points to ability (Fig. 6). The willingness of Japanese and Chineses children to work so hard in school may be due, in part, to the stronger belief on the part of their mothers in the value of hard work."
Source:
http://www.spa.ucla.edu/ps/pdf/s99/PS294assign/achievement.pdf
Check out the rest of the article for an interesting read!
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Cambam: while I agree that scientific journals and .gov sites are "ideally" the only research that should be used as evidence, I doubt you'll be able to find any direct comparisons in the results of each parenting style, especially because some of the outcomes are intangible/hard to put on a scale (i.e. creativity). You can praise good sourcing all you want, but this is a controversial topic where you probably won't find more than what you just did, "what does each parent group believe in the first place?"
Not every discussion can be rigorously academic; nor does every discussion need to be rigorously academic to be valid. In cases such like this, anecdotal vs anecdotal will probably reveal more than purely sourced arguments.
(plus in some fields coughmedicalcough journal evidence can be just as worthless due to stat-manipulation)
I mean after all, if the world adhered to your standards of rigor, no popular publications would exist. WSJ would be totally gone, especially it's op-ed section.
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On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:Cool read. Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. Sources: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.html
http://www.articlebliss.com/Art/564805/286/China-Global-Education-Ranking-Has-Surpassed-the-United-States.html[3] While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, [1]it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.[2] I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work: For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math.[4] The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
[1]The article in question, and the mother writing it deserves some criticism. The lulu story was disgusting, starving one's own child and not letting them go to the bathroom.
[3]Your articles are horrible... but they prove a point that Chinese students (raised in China) perform significantly better on international education rankings than US students.
Seriously... what blogger writes with this many grammatical errors?:
"Decrease in the level of education to Americans worried."
"However, for China's global ranking in education, U.S. education experts have pointed out, this result shows that the Chinese cultural emphasis on education has a tradition of attention to teacher training and other characteristics, but also show that Chinese students than U.S. students more study time , and spent on sports, music and so less time accordingly."
And I found this rather funny:
"The three-yearly OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) report, which compares the knowledge and skills of 15-year-olds in 70 countries around the world, ranked the United States 14th out of 34 OECD countries for reading skills, 17th for science and a below-average 25th for mathematics.
One thing I will note: [2]
You are right, I find that my relatives raised in China, and my friends in University from mainland China are heavily critical of western ideals.
My Chinese friends, and I myself, having been raised in the States, believe more in western education.
[4]I don't believe this is true, I personally subconsciously believe that I can be smart even though I'm in the bottom half of my class now. I do work hard to my degree, but often slack off. My friends studying engineering, raised in the western world also believe more in hard work than in talent. I find everyone believes in hard work among the engineers. If they didn't, they wouldn't be here. (Well ok, we have a handful that don't work too hard... but just a handful.)
The point I'm trying to make anyways is :
Somewhere along the way, as we got better in school, and were praised for it, we developed a desire to learn more, and this caused us to develop an intrinsic motivation to learn. This intrinsic motivation then became a positive feedback loop.
When we hit a wall facing other smart students in University, we remember how we'd succeeded in the past through hard work and not through being called math whizzes. We may not believe that we can be the best in the class (some students simply are more talented), but we all believe that with more work, we could be close.
edit: typo, god it was late.
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Education rankings are being given too much weight in general IMO. Since, by nature, they are unable to account for intangibles like creativity/leadership, adhering to what strict math/science standardized testing reveals can undermine invisible advantages of "failing" education systems. Sure, China may be best at producing students competent at standardized testing, but what does that really mean? This is the problem of rigor: it can only be applied to certain types of measurements.
And anecdotally, this is coming from a physics student, and I'm sure you know that physics is a field where academic rigor is important. (though it shouldn't be! one of my favorite physics professors showed us an early 1900s physics journal that was pretty much anecdotally written, and arguably it was much more useful than the sanitized, lackoffirstperson journals of today). Blind praise of journals and rigor is leading us in a bad direction.
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Guaranteed mediocrity is a proof against failure. I guess the writer doesn't want her kids to fail.
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On January 10 2011 10:52 Cambam wrote:
Well, to be fair, the burden of proof lies on both sides of the argument. People claiming that Western Parenting Style is better, people claiming that Chinese style is better, and people claiming that Chinese style is wrong are all making claims and thus all have the burden of proof.
No, I don't think so. The article starts out right with the title making a claim. There is no burden of proof on anyone contesting this claim. That's not how it works. There's a difference between "I don't think Chinese parenting is as good as you say it is" and "I think Chinese parenting sucks".
The whole point is that the claim itself is bogus (and not just because the author provides no evidence). It's bogus because, how are you defining "success"? If you define success as high marks in a very rigid grading system in subjects that reward repetition and mechanical skills, then yes, training your child to develop these skills through monotony and an infusion of work ethic that borders on slave driving can indeed be defined as a "superior" method.
Western parents however, who may define "success" by such silly criteria as being happy, mentally healthy, and having a solid social net, may actually be superior to Chinese parents in this regard. And apparently, and this sounds a little crazy I know, but these factors seem to also actually make a person more successful in life, financially that is.
Without making a definitive classification of "success", which in itself will render the discussion with bias, there is no point to any discussion, much less an academic one. What we can talk about instead is the flaws of the Chinese version of parenting, which I must contend as not worth the benefits. I must protest the Chinese form of parenting, which reduces children to abject slaves, in a cruel pursuit of vicarious success, that which transforms people into human trophies, mutes that which makes us human: our emotions and connections to other human beings, and ultimately stunts the development of a child in favor of the harsh qualities of an adult.
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I question how "Chinese" the author is. Ironically, she was born and/or spent all her childhood in the US, married a white guy, and almost certainly doesn't even speak Chinese to her children at home. Perhaps she's just a big troll.
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Some people seem to be defending the article by saying.. well you aren't providing sources that say a western upbringing is better. Look at all these fancy stats at how much better China is in math etc etc. Well.. I don't care, your basing success on "results", the fact is, it's borderline, if not is, child abuse. Also, I consider life to be pretty much a 1 time deal(I don't believe in reincarnation), who wants to spend 98% of their time from birth to death working , first in school, then at work..... sure, if someone told me I could work 80 hours a week, for 5 years, I am guaranteed to live to 85, have as much money as I want, and never have to work again, I would do it. But sadly, this is not the case.. and therefore, people need to relax and live a little. If you truly think this is a successful method of parenting, and living, then why are you on a starcraft forum. I don't see how this is advancing your goal of becoming 100% robot whatsoever, it's a completely irrelevant activity in the big picture of 100% work, 0% play.
Imagine for a moment you growing up, your not allowed to have friends, and you work 150% constantly. All you have is your parents, you have to succeed or you are called a piece of shit, a failure, etc. What the fuck do you do when they expect more than what you can give them?
Life is really god damn short, you'll realize this when you have people really close to you pass away... at any age. The sooner you figure it out the better. Take some time, play some games, hang out with those that you love and like. Go on vacation with your family, see the world.
Success is not 100% based on money... and school grades, and how you did in piano class. Success imo is based mostly on happiness. Sure... money helps, but being able to do what you want as a career, being what you dreamed of being when you were young..... having a family ( or just getting laid.. whatever you personally want that makes you happy)... anything, that will make you happy.. is success.
Success to me is much different then being brain washed, told to work 100%, make lots of money, don't play cause I was told it was wrong.
If you spend 100% of your time here working and making yourself a success, and then you die before you can retire or have children, or whatever.... what will you have accomplished?
All work and no play, makes for a dull day... Like i've said before, maybe Im a little idealistic, but I am really sad for this ladies kids, and it saddens me more to see people defending these parents actions and justifying it simply by saying, well... they make more money and have better grades.
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EPT
