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On January 10 2011 05:55 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote:
LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that
1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age.
2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/yWyJR.jpg) being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
I actually agree with your point 100%, which is why I think there needs to be a more of a balance between the two styles of parenting. But I do believe that the so-called "chinese mothers" are closer to where parenting should be than the western mothers.
For example, it's been shown in a surprising amount of research lately that outdoors playtime is enormously beneficial for young kids (not sure why, but several studies have confirmed this. i've got my theories on it, but the fact is it's beneficial). Chinese mothers: "there's not enough time in the day for you to waste an hour playing outside. get back to playing the piano for 3 hours." Western mothers: "do whatever you want to do sweetie. enjoy staring at that TV!"
Obviously the ideal would be somewhere in between, where the parent says "stop being lazy and get your ass outside and play. come back in an hour"
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This parenting method seems really great at pumping out "successful" obedient office drones that help fuel the Chinese economy. Downside is it seems to stifle creativity, but that doesn't matter anyway cause Chinese businessmen have adapted by stealing other people's ideas, and works.  (ei. Chinese animation studios copy/pasting Japanese anime, Chinese tech companies are notorious for stealing Western software etc..)
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Some really interesting posts there ^
Might also explain why the Chinese have so many great classical music performers but so few good composers.
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On January 10 2011 05:55 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote:
LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that
1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age.
2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
This man wins the thread.
A great education may help you get a job, but guess what's more important than getting a job? Pretty much everything else. Doing a job properly, keeping a job, advancing in a job. These things require intelligence and social aptitude, neither of which are being developed by forcing your children to live like slaves.
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On January 10 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 05:55 mahnini wrote:On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote:
LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that
1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age.
2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set. This man wins the thread. A great education may help you get a job, but guess what's more important than getting a job? Pretty much everything else. Doing a job properly, keeping a job, advancing in a job. These things require intelligence and social aptitude, neither of which are being developed by forcing your children to live like slaves.
+1
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On January 10 2011 05:55 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote:
LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that
1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age.
2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
<3
Thanks for this post. I didn't have the statistics to back up what I've been saying before (couldn't find them on google lol), but now that I do, it closely reflects my experience with Asians who have been brought up the way Amy described them. No, they aren't emotionally unstable or unable to socially interact at all, most of them settle down with a family and live standard 9-5 lives comfy and secure, but very few of them make it past middle management and truly succeed.
And working a 9-5 job making 100,000 something income is fine if you have cultivated a wide variety of other interests, hobbies, and friends along the way, but these people haven't, so they usually devote all there energy towards there family, specifically there children, with the mindset if that if they force there kids to work harder, they'll be more successful, perpetuating the cycle of mediocrity.
btw im asian :p. And I'm pretty disgusted by families who do this to there kids.
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There have been economic studies which show the best way to entice some one to achieve a goal is not through incentive based bonuses. Carrot-on-a-stick rewards only work in very simple scenarios, eg. I will pay you more money for every extra carton of fruit you pick. When the task becomes slightly more complex, these incentives stifle creative thinking and the people under the highest pressure to perform (ie. offered the highest incentive reward) are the ones who perform worst.
Another study analysed a group of preschool children (I believe these were children living in America) at the age of 4 who were asked to come up with as many uses for a paper clip as possible. On average, the children were able to come up with over 100 uses each. They would also make 'strange' leaps of logic and ask if the paper clip could be the size of a planet or if it was made of cheese. These same children were re-tested IIRC 2 years later, and then 2 years later again. The average amount of uses for a paper clip decreased incrementally at each stage of testing until at the age of 9 the average result was 20. The hypothesis explaining this decline was the education system these children were placed taught them a very strict 'there is one answer to each problem' type of logic. Those children who conformed to this logic are rewarded with the highest grades, creating a positive feed-back loop to stifle creativity and only strive to find the answer the teacher wants.
I believe this sort of analogy applies to the children of "Chinese Mothers", who raise their kids to be the extreme example of children used in these studies. I have seen anecdotes that generally those raised in such a manner struggle when faced with new challenges that do not fit within the bounds of what they have been made to study. They do not have the best approach to tackling new tasks because they are often only focused on the result, rather than on the how or why.
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Asians are underrepresented among executives because business school is not typically the path that most Asians take, and that is the preferred path in America to becoming an executive.
East Asia is full of Asian mothers that behave like their Asian-American counterparts. Yet you'll find plenty of successful businesses there, run by successful Asians. So it's more a matter of Asian culture not adapting to American business culture, not some ridiculous, unfounded assertion that strict Asian mothers produce Asian drones incapable of thinking creatively. Which is borderline racist, I might add.
Also, that chart is stupid within the context of this discussion. Vietnamese and Filipinos are less successful than CJK's, so why include them in the general population? Go do a chart on African-Americans. The reason they are underrepresented amongst executives is not because of their strict mothers or the fact that they are mindless drones; it's because a lot of them are poor and uneducated.
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On January 10 2011 07:25 domovoi wrote:
Asians are underrepresented among executives because business school is not typically the path that most Asians take, and that is the preferred path in America to becoming an executive.
Why don't they take that path? When one dedicates ones young adulthood to being "successful", and nothing else, why would one not take the path that would actually result in success as opposed to merely a comfortable mediocrity.
If they refuse business school simply because they dislike its practice, then its hypocritical to the core values wherein one ignores ones inert aptitudes and preference in favor of the most surest road to success. Or they refuse because they don't believe they'll be as successful, which begs the question why.
Also, that chart is stupid within the context of this discussion. Vietnamese and Filipinos are less successful than CJK's, so why include them in the general population? Go do a chart on African-Americans. The reason they are underrepresented amongst executives is not because of their strict mothers or the fact that they are mindless drones; it's because a lot of them are poor and uneducated.
Median Household Income: 2004.
Indians $88,538[35]
Filipinos $75,146[36]
Chinese $69,037[37]
Japanese $64,197[38]
Koreans $53,025
Dunno think you might be a bit racist cuz you automatically assume Filipinoes are automatically more poor then the rest.
Stats for Vietnamese are a tad bit lower, 51k, but that isn't so disparate considering the fact that Vietnamese Americans make up a minority of Asian Americans to the point where it would skew statistics.
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On January 10 2011 07:33 Half wrote:
Why don't they take that path? When one dedicates ones young adulthood to being "successful", and nothing else, why would one not take the path that would actually result in success as opposed to merely a comfortable mediocrity.
If they refuse business school simply because they dislike its practice, then its hypocritical to the core values wherein one ignores ones inert aptitudes and preference in favor of the most surest road to success. Or they refuse because they don't believe they'll be as successful, which begs the question why.
The path through business school is not the surest path. Sure, if you can get into a good B-school, you're doing pretty well. But it's much safer to get an engineering degree during undegrad rather than a business-related degree; ones employment prospects are often better, even if the B-school route has a higher upper-end.
I think memes also play a role; for example, Asian Americans used to disregard law as a valid path of success, but that has changed in recent years, and Asian representation amongst elite law firms is increasing.
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On January 10 2011 06:26 sc4k wrote:
Some really interesting posts there ^
Might also explain why the Chinese have so many great classical music performers but so few good composers.
Actually most Asian classical music performers are pretty uncreative as well, most of them just execute the explicitly written music well, I haven't heard any yet that really made me think "wow this guy has some good ideas". Maybe this is just because of the European tradition of classical music.
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The path through business school is not the surest path
To making 100,000k-150k a year, no it isn't. But even eschewing CEO positions, it certainly is the fastest past to actual wealth as opposed to upper middle class.
So you're saying that its an economical and wise decision to throw away ones childhood and young adulthood, making less professional relationships that are invaluable in ones later career as well, for a path that guarantees mediocrity? In the end, I guarantee you every single one of Amy's higher payed and substantially wealthier superiors and cohorts on the collegiate board had a more substantial childhood, didn't work as hard (in terms of mechanical studying) and how has a higher salary. She now calls them boss.
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On January 10 2011 07:33 Half wrote:
Dunno think you might be a bit racist cuz you automatically assume Filipinoes are automatically more poor then the rest.
Stats for Vietnamese are a tad bit lower, 51k, but that isn't so disparate considering the fact that Vietnamese Americans make up a minority of Asian Americans to the point where it would skew statistics.
The pie chart is for Silicon Valley. Unfortunately, I don't have time to look for demographic stats for Silicon Valley, but if you could find them, I would appreciate it. I might be wrong about that point, but my impression is that the Valley's CJK's are a lot better off than their Southeast Asian counterparts (mostly Vietnamese).
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On January 09 2011 08:59 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 08:37 maka.albarn wrote:
The kids might be child prodegies but by the time they reach college they drop out or fail misarably because they don't have their mommy Hahaha. Story of my life. Btw my Chinese mother's spelling lessons tell me that the word you're looking for is "prodigy."
my spelling lessons also tell me that it is "miserably", and that the third sentence does not belong because he used two conjunctions in a row.
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On January 10 2011 07:21 LilClinkin wrote:
There have been economic studies which show the best way to entice some one to achieve a goal is not through incentive based bonuses. Carrot-on-a-stick rewards only work in very simple scenarios, eg. I will pay you more money for every extra carton of fruit you pick. When the task becomes slightly more complex, these incentives stifle creative thinking and the people under the highest pressure to perform (ie. offered the highest incentive reward) are the ones who perform worst.
Another study analysed a group of preschool children (I believe these were children living in America) at the age of 4 who were asked to come up with as many uses for a paper clip as possible. On average, the children were able to come up with over 100 uses each. They would also make 'strange' leaps of logic and ask if the paper clip could be the size of a planet or if it was made of cheese. These same children were re-tested IIRC 2 years later, and then 2 years later again. The average amount of uses for a paper clip decreased incrementally at each stage of testing until at the age of 9 the average result was 20. The hypothesis explaining this decline was the education system these children were placed taught them a very strict 'there is one answer to each problem' type of logic. Those children who conformed to this logic are rewarded with the highest grades, creating a positive feed-back loop to stifle creativity and only strive to find the answer the teacher wants.
I believe this sort of analogy applies to the children of "Chinese Mothers", who raise their kids to be the extreme example of children used in these studies. I have seen anecdotes that generally those raised in such a manner struggle when faced with new challenges that do not fit within the bounds of what they have been made to study. They do not have the best approach to tackling new tasks because they are often only focused on the result, rather than on the how or why.
The moment they pick up Integration, they would've learned how there's more than one answer...
even as early as drawing a graph and all points such that...
They were 'peculiar' ? those children who were creative...?
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On January 10 2011 07:51 Half wrote:To making 100,000k-150k a year, no it isn't. But even eschewing CEO positions, it certainly is the fastest past to actual wealth as opposed to upper middle class.
People have varying levels of risk-aversion. It's difficult to say which one is better than the other. Make a sure six figures, or have a low chance of making executive?
So you're saying that its an economical and wise decision to throw away ones childhood and young adulthood, making less professional relationships that are invaluable in ones later career as well, for a path that guarantees mediocrity?
This is silly and near racist. Nobody I grew up with threw away their childhood, we simply had different preferences and varying amounts of discipline. There's no evidence "strict Asian mothers" create less professional relationships. And to say engineering is a path that "guarantees mediocrity" is ignorant and silly. It's not the best path (though a reasonably good one) to extreme riches, but you insult the entire TL.net board (which has more engineering-types than business-types) by claiming it is a path of mediocrity.
In the end, I guarantee you every single one of Amy's higher payed and substantially wealthier superiors and cohorts on the collegiate board had a more substantial childhood, didn't work as hard (in terms of mechanical studying) and how has a higher salary. She now calls them boss.
And I guarantee you that most of Amy's white classmates also had a more substantial childhood and are nowhere near as successful as she is.
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This is silly and near racist. Nobody I grew up with threw away their childhood, we simply had different preferences and varying amounts of discipline. There's no evidence "strict Asian mothers" create less professional relationships. And to say engineering is a path that "guarantees mediocrity" is ignorant and silly. It's not the best path (though a reasonably good one) to extreme riches, but you insult the entire TL.net board (which has more engineering-types than business-types) by claiming it is a path of mediocrity.
I'm talking about the Parenting outlined by Amy in the OP. Not having a single playmate constitutes throwing out your childhood. Perhaps your experiences are different. I am not talking about those experiences.
And as I said
And working a 9-5 job making 100,000 something income is fine if you have cultivated a wide variety of other interests, hobbies, and friends along the way, but these people haven't, so they usually devote all there energy towards there family, specifically there children, with the mindset if that if they force there kids to work harder, they'll be more successful, perpetuating the cycle of mediocrity.
If you sacrifice your entire childhood and young adulthood, which Amy (not you, not your friends), evidently did, only to aspire to comfortable mediocrity, thats frankly quite pathetic.
Do you think Amy has any activities beyond working and being a tyrant to her children even today? I doubt it, and it isn't because she doesn't have time for it anymore.
But stop projecting. I'm not saying emphasizing discipline on your child is bad or that all asian parents are evil.
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On January 10 2011 07:06 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 05:55 mahnini wrote:On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote:
LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that
1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age.
2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set. This man wins the thread. A great education may help you get a job, but guess what's more important than getting a job? Pretty much everything else. Doing a job properly, keeping a job, advancing in a job. These things require intelligence and social aptitude, neither of which are being developed by forcing your children to live like slaves.
I agree that social aptitude is important, and its development should be encouraged. However, intelligence (at least as I think you're using the word) is inherent and immutable.
if you were to ask all of the high school math and science teachers in this country watching American students flunk out of those subjects, do you REALLY think they'd say "You know what we need? What we need is more creativity!" Hell no. They'd say they need their students showing up with their homework completed (hell, half of the kids are too lazy to even copy it from somebody else who actually did it). They'd say that they need their kids to give a shit what grade they get in a class, since they can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn. They'd say the kids need to stop falling asleep in class, because their parents let them stay up too late playing video games. //my gf is a middle school math teacher
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
edit:
and just for clarity I'm not saying America needs to drastically change its culture and eliminate all creativity. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But what I AM saying is that western parents are failing to properly motivate their children, and that asian parents in general do a much better job of that. Western parents, if they want to raise kids that can compete in a global economy, NEED to adapt their strategy.
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Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence.
Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
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What I don't get is why people always measures worth in how much money you make. I would hate to have been treated like the children of that article, that doesn't mean my parents didn't have rules. Infact I wasn't allowed to drink/smoke untill I turned 18 and when I broke the drinking promise I wasn't allowed into the house for 2 days. (I did find out later that my dad followed me around on his motorcycle to see that I didn't do anything stupid, but I learnt my lesson sure as hell).
Isn't the mark of succses doing what YOU love making a living out of that? My mother doesn't make millions every year, but she makes more than enough and she sometimes can not wait to get to work, that she rushes out of bed long before her work day begins just to get something done. Isn't that really what being succsesful is all about?
Her boyfriend runs a company with buisnesses in 4 countrys and he spends his days stressed out as all hell, I wouldn't call him more succsesful than my mom, even if he gets a much higher salary, because I've seen how stressed he is.
So what I don't get if you force your kids into these kinds of things, how are they supposed to find that thing that they love doing?
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EPT
